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    Il-476 Transport

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:07 pm

    It's the same damn plane.

    So stop with this nonsense.

    BTW, the claims thrown here is Borisov, not military. And he never mentioned anything about Su-35 replacing Su-57 or T-90 for Armata.

    Way to overblow something without even understanding what was said.

    Not surprised though by this forum members tbh.
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    Hole

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:40 pm

    Nothing has been downgraded.
    There is a program to modernise the Il-76 called Il-76MD-M and the new plane, Il-76MD-90A (Il-476). 3 delivered. 10 are put together, so the series production is going ahead.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:30 pm


    miketheterrible wrote:BTW, the claims thrown here is Borisov, not military. And he never mentioned anything about Su-35 replacing Su-57 or T-90 for Armata..........

    This is PRECISELY what he said.

    On record, on video, in front of countless journalists and witnesses.

    It was trending news for whole week.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:33 pm

    Uh Borisov is the Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry his word HOLDS a ton of weight with matters like these only two guys in all of Russia would come before him Putin and Shogu so if Borisov says something in those areas, you are delusional if you are trying to ignore or say he has no idea what he is talking about.

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    Isos

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:04 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Uh Borisov is the Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry his word HOLDS a ton of weight with matters like these only two guys in all of Russia would come before him Putin and Shogu so if Borisov says something in those areas, you are delusional if you are trying to ignore or say he has no idea what he is talking about.


    It's not only words. There are facts too.

    Su-30/35 have been recently ordered in big numbers while su-57 should be ready next year. Upgrades of t-72/80/90 have been presented and they even started the program while t-14 is ready and not yet ordered in big numbers. They "have" pak-da but order more tu-160. They have yasen that they can build but spend money on upgrading older subs.

    They have a lot of new project that are very good but they can't buy all of them. Maybe they should keep some money to buy more hardware and spend less on r&d for things they won't be able to buy.

    Pak-da for exemple will be pretty expensive. Tu-160 was already half a billion. B-2 which is an advanced flying wing is 2 billion. Pak da will be between them.yasen are also damn expensive for a russian product too.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:41 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Uh Borisov is the Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry his word HOLDS a ton of weight with matters like these only two guys in all of Russia would come before him Putin and Shogu so if Borisov says something in those areas, you are delusional if you are trying to ignore or say he has no idea what he is talking about.


    Deputy Prime Minister says one thing, MoD says else.

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Uh Borisov is the Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry his word HOLDS a ton of weight with matters like these only two guys in all of Russia would come before him Putin and Shogu so if Borisov says something in those areas, you are delusional if you are trying to ignore or say he has no idea what he is talking about.


    It's not only words. There are facts too.

    Su-30/35 have been recently ordered in big numbers while su-57 should be ready next year. Upgrades of t-72/80/90 have been presented and they even started the program while t-14 is ready and not yet ordered in big numbers. They "have" pak-da but order more tu-160. They have yasen that they can build but spend money on upgrading older subs.

    They have a lot of new project that are very good but they can't buy all of them. Maybe they should keep some money to buy more hardware and spend less on r&d for things they won't be able to buy.

    Pak-da for exemple will be pretty expensive. Tu-160 was already half a billion. B-2 which is an advanced flying wing is 2 billion. Pak da will be between them.yasen are also damn expensive for a russian product too.

    Don't be stupid (then again, you proven yourself by not even knowing that Il-476 is same as Il-76-90MD)

    There has been no new orders of anything besides what, 30 Su-30SM?  No new orders of Su-35 either.  Care to explain that?  Same with T-90's.  There are more orders for Armata (100) than T-90's.  LOL.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:BTW, the claims thrown here is Borisov, not military. And he never mentioned anything about Su-35 replacing Su-57 or T-90 for Armata..........

    This is PRECISELY what he said.

    On record, on video, in front of countless journalists and witnesses.

    It was trending news for whole week.

    No, this is what Borisov said:

    https://thediplomat.com/2018/07/russia-will-not-mass-produce-5th-generation-stealth-fighter-jet/

    Read it.  Mass Production and Production are two different things.  They are still ordering the jet.

    You guys have real reading comprehension issues.

    Edit: BTW, here is an interview with head of KLA: https://www.interfax.ru/interview/626416

    Gives insight.

    But if you guys are insistent on believing that it was cancelled, then answer me this:

    Were is the orders for the Su-35 and Su-30?  Cause Su-30SM orders for next while is not much more than Su-57's. Next question would be: "Why buy en mass something that isn't ready yet?" Lack of newest engines is biggest issue so far. They aren't China producing a "5th gen jet" that is spotted on radar hundred+ km away by Indian early Bars radar.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:24 am

    Isos wrote:.....
    They have a lot of new project that are very good but they can't buy all of them. Maybe they should keep some money to buy more hardware and spend less on r&d for things they won't be able to buy.
    ......

    They can't buy any of them

    When was last time they ordered Yasen?

    They will probably order some stock Kilo subs and claim that it's superior to Virginia SSN, Armata style
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:29 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:.....
    They have a lot of new project that are very good but they can't buy all of them. Maybe they should keep some money to buy more hardware and spend less on r&d for things they won't be able to buy.
    ......

    They can't buy any of them

    When was last time they ordered Yasen?

    They will probably order some stock Kilo subs and claim that it's superior to Virginia SSN, Armata style

    Which is funny based upon its current budget being pretty massive with SAP2027 having a fixed budget of 19T rubles for procurement.

    So it boils down to:

    More of the older more refined stuff in order to have numbers up

    or

    They are waiting for ironing out all issues of newer stuff.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 am

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    So it boils down to:

    More of the older more refined stuff in order to have numbers up

    or

    They are waiting for ironing out all issues of newer stuff.

    What older stuff? There has been nothing ordered for years.

    And what is there to iron out when there is nothing new out there?

    They aren't doing anything. Not old, not new.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:17 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    So it boils down to:

    More of the older more refined stuff in order to have numbers up

    or

    They are waiting for ironing out all issues of newer stuff.

    What older stuff? There has been nothing ordered for years.

    And what is there to iron out when there is nothing new out there?

    They aren't doing anything. Not old, not new.

    Which is odd because the money is there.  They even increased defense budget of 2018 too from initial budget earlier in the year.

    https://www.janes.com/article/78744/russia-adjusts-defence-spending-upward
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    Isos

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:42 am


    Don't be stupid (then again, you proven yourself by not even knowing that Il-476 is same as Il-76-90MD)

    There has been no new orders of anything besides what, 30 Su-30SM? No new orders of Su-35 either. Care to explain that? Same with T-90's. There are more orders for Armata (100) than T-90's. LOL.

    Someone is not stupid because he doesn't follow il-76 production Rolling Eyes

    I just needed to read the few last posts/page of this thread and see that they already plan to not buy it and instead are thinking about antonov ...

    Yes 100 armata and much more upgrades of t-72/90 ...

    Su-57 won't either be ordered as they planed but much lower birds and su-35 should increase to almost 100 whike the first batch was 48. They also have upgraded for su-30 waiting.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:12 am

    Waiting is key word. Same with Su-57 engines.

    And Antanov.... No, they won't. Just watch and see.

    I am correct. Doesn't take a genius to realize Russia ordered zero shit in last year besides..... Su-57 and small amount of Su-30SM.

    Oh, and Armata too with token force of T-90M

    Wow wee. They are still waiting on their order of.... Il-76-90md
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    Isos

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:19 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Waiting is key word. Same with Su-57 engines.

    And Antanov.... No, they won't. Just watch and see.

    I am correct. Doesn't take a genius to realize Russia ordered zero shit in last year besides..... Su-57 and small amount of Su-30SM.

    Oh, and Armata too with token force of T-90M

    Wow wee. They are still waiting on their order of.... Il-76-90md

    I will believe it when I see it happen. They were supposed to have all those thing in service by now if you check their statements from 2010-2012. Yet they have 1 gorshkov and 2 yasen ready. Only good thing is that they did well with nuclear stuff like boreis. The rest of their programs is struggling because of money.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:23 pm

    sorry but Borisov words override the head of the UAC, Borisov is higher on the food chain that interview is worthless.

    Also did I say they were canning the aircraft altogether? no I simply said if Borisov says something you better listen.

    I have said before they will not make tons of SU-57's you will get at best maybe like 40-50
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:43 pm

    Whats funny is Borisov contradicts himself and so you guys take the latest info to heart.

    So far, he said they order more Su-35's. Guess what? That hasn't happened either.

    I follow what MoD says (as I said earlier) and UAC doesn't just say shit for sake of it either. They are owned by Rostec and head of Rostec goes directly to Putin if you may not noticed and Putin is far above Borisov.
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    Nibiru

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  Nibiru on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:12 pm

    They were supposed to have all those thing in service by now if you check their statements from 2010-2012. Yet they have 1 gorshkov and 2 yasen ready. Only good thing is that they did well with nuclear stuff like boreis. The rest of their programs is struggling because of money.

    Which makes me wonder if the situation will ever improve in 10 - 20 years time. way back in the late 2000s I have always hoped that maybe by 2020 Russia will get its military procurement right on schedule, but with how things are going on now, it seems little has changed.
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    Hole

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  Hole on Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:55 pm

    10 years ago one or two ships and 20 aircraft were produced in Russia. Today the numbers are much higher. 100+ aircraft and helicopters a year. More than 100 ships/subs in production/outfitting/testing.

    marat

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  marat on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm

    Hole wrote:10 years ago one or two ships and 20 aircraft were produced in Russia. Today the numbers are much higher. 100+ aircraft and helicopters a year. More than 100 ships/subs in production/outfitting/testing.
    3-4 years ago numbers were bigger then today.

    And I wouldn't be so proud regarding no of ships in production, having in mind how long ships in Russia are in that stage.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:22 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:sorry but Borisov words override the head of the UAC, Borisov is higher on the food chain that interview is worthless.
    +++
    I have said before they will not make tons of SU-57's you will get at best maybe like 40-50


    IMHO all of you lads missing one point but crucial to understand what Borisov meant. . Timing.

    He said that PAK-FA there are no plans for mass production until there is no need for this (i.e 4th gen fighters are very much ok for taks they are to do) He also said that this is a trump card "we always can play later", or m I wrong ?


    Technology, geopolitical, economical situation constantly changes. Whether a fighter is modern in comparison to western counterpart depends how many of new fighters are there. So far none. To counter Rafale or Eurofigter Su-57 is not life and death necessity.

    There is no need to over invest into one direction "just in case" . So no he didnt say it not be mass produced ever. From one hand Tempest/FCAS will start entering service for the other aging Su-30m , Su-27 or MiG-29SMT will need replacement.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:23 pm

    marat wrote:
    Hole wrote:10 years ago one or two ships and 20 aircraft were produced in Russia. Today the numbers are much higher. 100+ aircraft and helicopters a year. More than 100 ships/subs in production/outfitting/testing.
    3-4 years ago numbers were bigger then today.

    stats are warmly welcome
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:55 pm

    Nibiru wrote:
    Which makes me wonder if the situation will ever improve in 10 - 20 years time. way back in the late 2000s I have always hoped that maybe by 2020 Russia will get its military procurement right on schedule, but with how things are going on now, it seems little has changed.


    Well again if timescale you correlate with geopolitical/internal too/ economical situation you can only measure progress. Only money provided to ineffective or and obsolete companies wont make much good if nobody seems to be cable to use effectively there.

    in 2008 war made Putin go a bit harder towards independence. Then it was crisis, then US coup in Ukraine, sanctions... since 2013 Russia is effectively at war with Us without military component. So yes, there is progress. And in this situation to remove internal obstacles to rebuild country, to unite Nation and meet procurement plans is non trivial to me.

    Most important is strategic balance. Thet's why Avangard, Poseidon or Burevestnik had no problems with financing. No budget is written in stone. There will be opportunity or need money will be there.

    mnztr

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  mnztr on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:35 am

    I think because of the more aggressive stance of the US, Russia has had to change priorities. Deterrence both conventional and nuclear have to take precidence. Kinzhal, Tsirkon, KH-32 and the new ICBMs and warheads. The deterrence needs to be preserved at all costs. The effect of 10-20 Kinzhal equipped MIGs is HUGE. Also I think it is possible Russia has been probing F-22 and 35 in the middle east and has possibly learned some things about the myths of stealth in the real world. So do they continue with a stealthy airframe that has a lot of compromises or do they improve detection to the point where steath is irrelevant.

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  marat on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:59 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Hole wrote:10 years ago one or two ships and 20 aircraft were produced in Russia. Today the numbers are much higher. 100+ aircraft and helicopters a year. More than 100 ships/subs in production/outfitting/testing.
    3-4 years ago numbers were bigger then today.

    stats are warmly welcome

    You do not know to count?

    lets see, how many frigates Russia have in production/outfitting/testing now and how many had 3 years ago?

    And how many Frigates were started in last 4 years? When you will finally have finished all current Admirals  you will have to wait at least 5 years for new ships.


    How many LHD Russia have in production/outfitting/testing now and how many had 3-4 years ago?

    How man Ivan Gren class was production/outfitting/testing 3-4 years ago....

    Buyan class is almost same, such as Kilo, we hade more Lada in production/outfitting/testing 3-4 years ago then today.

    Stereguschy and derivates are similar in numbers in production/outfitting/testing now and 3-4 years ago, but , we have no ships of this class laid since 2016. Same goes with Borei but no new ships will be started in next 5 years.

    Yasen is similar, maybe one ship more in production/outfitting/testing now days, but Kazan will soon be active.
    Only Karakuts are more numerous today then 3-4 years ago. And 22160 (6 now in comparation with 2).


    Regaring aircrafts i think that peak was in 2014 and 2015.

    UAC 2015 RuAF summary (89): 18 Su-34; 3 Su-30M2; 14 Su-35S; 27 Su-30SM; 12 YaK-130; 4 MiG-29SMT; 1 MiG-29UBR and 10 MiG-29KR/KUBR.

    Numbers were lower in 2016/17 and this year will also be lower.
    Please correct me if i am wrong.

    And please do not see this as "dick measuring" but as chance to find if now situation is really better then 3-4 years ago.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:43 am

    Hard to say.

    The money is there.
    The technology and facilities are obviously there
    The need is there.

    So what is it?

    I think what it is, is politicians playing the game. They can't come up with a solid opinion.

    Or maybe they are waiting for the tech. Maybe modifications needed for Su-35 and Su-30 from Syria experience before more purchases?

    Maybe waiting till initial order is completed?

    No one knows why. Well, besides MoD themselves.

    19T rubles for 9 years for procurement is a lot of money.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Il-476 Transport

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:14 pm

    Su-30/35 have been recently ordered in big numbers while su-57 should be ready next year.

    The Su-35 is a good aircraft that is pretty much better than anything currently operate by the west... in fact within the Russian IADS I would rate it as better than the F-22 simply because it has better range, better speed, better armament, and as long as it is used correctly would be much more effective than the F-22 in terms of defending.

    The F-22 is optimised for entering enemy territory and shooting down unsuspecting but also simple enemy fighters that are not aware of what is happening... that is not the Su-35, which has a self defence suite that should protect it from AMRAAM and Sidewinder missiles... so in a gun fight I think it would be very dangerous to any enemy aircraft.

    If you can buy 10 Su-35s for the price of one Su-57 then it makes sense to buy a lot of Su-35s as well as a few Su-57s to operate them together.

    Upgrades of t-72/80/90 have been presented and they even started the program while t-14 is ready and not yet ordered in big numbers.

    T-14 is not ready, because T-14 does not operate on its own... there should be a whole family of vehicles that the MBT Armata operates with all Armata based vehicles... implimenting the various vehicle families is going to take time and be rather expensive, but when it is done they will have a ground force second to none.

    They "have" pak-da but order more tu-160.

    The production capacity has been developed from scratch to build Tu-160s... once sufficient numbers have been produced to create a viable force, they will switch to PAK DA bombers instead to replace the Tu-95s.

    But there is no real hurry because the really critical component of that is already in service... 5,000km range Kh-101 and Kh-102 missiles are already in full scale production...

    They have yasen that they can build but spend money on upgrading older subs.

    Money spent on older systems to make them compatible with other platforms makes economic sense... the new guns in the upgraded T series tanks are based on the new guns fitted to the new generation tanks... increased production reduces costs and increases commonality in training and spare parts and ammo.

    They have a lot of new project that are very good but they can't buy all of them. Maybe they should keep some money to buy more hardware and spend less on r&d for things they won't be able to buy.

    They don't need to replace everything over night.... in fact if they could build 20 Frigates and 20 destroyers and 10 cruisers and three CVNs overnight where would they put them? Who could crew them... and WTF would they do with them except have them tied up at pier doing sweet FA...

    Pak-da for exemple will be pretty expensive. Tu-160 was already half a billion. B-2 which is an advanced flying wing is 2 billion. Pak da will be between them.yasen are also damn expensive for a russian product too.

    You can't really compare Russian weapons with US weapons in terms of price... the Tu-160 is actually expensive to operate... it burns a lot of fuel... the subsonic PAK DA will likely be rather cheaper to operate which makes it rather more useful in many ways... the Bears are still operating because they are cheaper to operate too.

    In fact the Backfire is used most in Syria because it is cheaper to operate than the Blackjack too.

    They will probably order some stock Kilo subs and claim that it's superior to Virginia SSN, Armata style

    Well in coastal operations I would say a Kilo is vastly superior to any nuke vessel... even just regarding cost effectiveness... you could have 30 Kilos for the price of a single Virginia class SSN... is one sub better than 30?

    I just needed to read the few last posts/page of this thread and see that they already plan to not buy it and instead are thinking about antonov ...

    Sorry... what?

    There is no chance what so ever that Russia will buy anything new from Antonov... Antonov don't have anything in the range of the Il-476... unless you are thinking of the An-70 which is in a different class really... 47 ton payload over short transport range, whereas the Il-476 is a 60 ton payload over strategic ranges.

    Yes 100 armata and much more upgrades of t-72/90 ...

    Armata is a vehicle family... they will not need thousands of them as MBTs...

    I have said before they will not make tons of SU-57's you will get at best maybe like 40-50

    Probably closer to 200-250 IMHO... but not any time soon... they will also produce a lot of Su-35s and MiG-35s, which will fill gaps all over the place...

    Most important is strategic balance. Thet's why Avangard, Poseidon or Burevestnik had no problems with financing. No budget is written in stone. There will be opportunity or need money will be there.

    And that is important too.... Avangard and Poseidon and Burevestnik are rather more important than the current MBT or in service fighter plane or transport plane operated by the Russian military.

    They have gotten the C4IR shit together and are working on their other problems... none of which will be solved over night, but progress is being made and things are improving.

    Or maybe they are waiting for the tech. Maybe modifications needed for Su-35 and Su-30 from Syria experience before more purchases?

    Maybe export contracts make them more money so they want to make Chinese and Indonesian Su-35s while the money is good.

    Another factor is that they need to have people trained to operate these things, which puts more pressure on training and logistics.

    It is not just a question of building 30 more Su-35s... what are they going to be armed with?

    Where are you going to deploy them to?

    What sort of airfield upgrades would be needed to base them there... what is your hurry?

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