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    An-70 Program

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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:51 am

    GarryB wrote:Certainly true... in both directions.

    The An-70 was rejected and the Il-476 was the focus for Russia after the split when the Ukraine seemed to be looking to the EU and NATO and away from Russia.

    Now that the Ukraine has had a change of heart there is the possibility for the An-70... it is not a bad aircraft, though it wont be cheap either.

    It is one of several potential ties that might help restore ties between these two countries, so if it succeeds and brings both countries closer together then all the better.

    The Il-476 is needed anyway as the A-100 replacement for the A-50 AWACS aircraft, and to replace older Il-76 aircraft.

    They are going to need a lot of new transport aircraft so I don't really see the An-70 as a bad thing.

    I would like to see them restart the Il-106 program as they will be retiring their An-22s soon and really don't have anything in that 80-90 ton payload capacity range except the An-124... which in its new versions will have a 150 ton capacity.

    I think the Il-106 in an updated design with new electronics and made of new materials could be a 90-100 ton payload aircraft and ideal competition internationally for the C-17.

    I think An-70 is an interim solution until the introduction of IL/HAL MTA. It was intended to replace old An-12, though it is much heavier. It is an intermediate aircraft like A-400 airbus.

    Concerning IL-106, do they need it really since they procure new IL-476s? And also more An-124? What is the purpose to introduce another type of strategic aircraft?
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    TR1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:09 am

    An-70 is far far bigger than whatever the MTA is goign to be, so it has nothing to do with that program.

    They are setting up production in Russia most likely, the aircraft is majority Russian anyways, and the RuMOD is keeping the project afloat, according to Antonov.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:13 am

    I think An-70 is an interim solution until the introduction of IL/HAL MTA. It was intended to replace old An-12, though it is much heavier. It is an intermediate aircraft like A-400 airbus.

    The An-70 has a payload of almost 50 tons, while MTA has a payload of 20 tons.

    MTA will be an excellent replacement for the An-12, but An-70 has payload capacity of early Il-76s.

    Concerning IL-106, do they need it really since they procure new IL-476s? And also more An-124? What is the purpose to introduce another type of strategic aircraft?

    They have been using 80 ton payload An-22s for a while and seem to think they are useful.

    There is a gap in payload capacity from the Il-476s of 60 tons payload and the An-124 with a 150 ton payload.

    There is a fairly big gap in operating expenses that could be filled.

    More to the point the only international competition in that market is the C-17, which currently sells for $500 million per plane!

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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:02 pm

    8tn: An-26 'Curl' (to be retired)
    7tn: An-140
    20tn: An-12 'Cub' (to be retired)
    20tn: IL-214
    50tn: An-70
    50tn: IL-76 'Candid' (to be retired)
    60tn: Il-476
    80tn: IL-106
    150tn: An-124 'Condor'


    I still cant understand why 2 types at 50-60 tn payload
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    TR1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:24 pm

    Well, one upside is it avoids the severe production bottleneck Smile. The best type can be unified later in the decade after operational experience.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:30 am

    The An-70 is optimised for rough fields, and I am still very suspicious about its range performance at max weights.

    The Il-476 will not only be an improved transport, but would retain the ability to carry kits for firefighting roles, and of course the dedicated inflight refuelling aircraft (Il-88), the new AWACS aircraft (A-100), and I believe there is a jammer aircraft too.

    The 476 adds more powerful but also more efficient engines and a new wing and stucture to improve performance.

    The An-70 is a largely unknown aircraft that could probably be given an upgrade before it even enters service as its design was frozen more than a decade ago... it has potential though.

    The An-124, An-70, and Il-476 will all be made in Russia.

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    Bthebrave

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Bthebrave on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:45 am

    Didn't Russia pull out of this program 10 years ago due to chronic test failures/reliability issues? I don't see why Russia should continue working with Antonov since investments have already been made in setting up a Joint Venture with HAL to co-develop, market and produce the Ilyushin-214. And not unimportant: Russian relations and military-industrial ties with India are far better then those with Ukraine. They always have been. Russia cant'afford to write Antonov completely off though, because it desperately needs tons of factoryfresh An-124-210's because the Russian An-214 fleet is limping on it's very last legs and will soon have to be sent to the boneyard.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:26 am

    From a purely political standpoint right now the Ukraine is much less hostile to Russia, in fact in comparison to the previous administration it is friendly.

    The An-70 was planned a long time ago and as such is needed.

    With the Ukrainian government friendly at the moment it is important for Russia to improve ties as that encourages the pro Russians within the Ukraine and takes power away from the opposition. It could be seen as rewarding them for positive behaviour, but it also means Russia will get a useful aircraft too.

    Any production of Russian An-70s will be in Russia by Russian factories, so even if at the next election that the Ukraine turns again it will not effect Russian An-70 production.

    The only problem with the An-70 is that it really needs a full upgrade as a lot of progress has been made since the design was frozen, so new cockpits and new electronics and even some new materials in the structure could be applied to improve performance and operations costs before production starts.

    The MTA is a 20 ton payload aircraft, and the Tu-214 is a cargo transport with side loading doors and a 25 ton payload. These aircraft make a lot of sense and they should buy those too, but the 50 ton payload of the An-70 and its ramp front and rear doors allow it to carry the vehicles of the VDV and to air drop them. The side doors of the Tu-214 are not suitable for air dropping.

    The An-124 will be produced in Russia in the near future.
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    TR1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:34 am

    Bthebrave wrote:Didn't Russia pull out of this program 10 years ago due to chronic test failures/reliability issues? I don't see why Russia should continue working with Antonov since investments have already been made in setting up a Joint Venture with HAL to co-develop, market and produce the Ilyushin-214. And not unimportant: Russian relations and military-industrial ties with India are far better then those with Ukraine. They always have been. Russia cant'afford to write Antonov completely off though, because it desperately needs tons of factoryfresh An-124-210's because the Russian An-214 fleet is limping on it's very last legs and will soon have to be sent to the boneyard.

    Russia is very much back in the An-70 game. In fact, the Russian MOD is the primary factor behind the program continuing today. This is all according to Antonov itself.
    Russia has vastly more military industrial ties with Ukraine, even if it has been striving to cut off dependance on some Ukranian suppliers.
    I am not sure why you think they desperetly ned An-124s, the current ones are just fine. MOD is committed to buying new examples this decade, when production restarts in Russia.
    I don't think we will see any new An-124s built in Ukraine again.
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    TR1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:35 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Bthebrave wrote:Didn't Russia pull out of this program 10 years ago due to chronic test failures/reliability issues? I don't see why Russia should continue working with Antonov since investments have already been made in setting up a Joint Venture with HAL to co-develop, market and produce the Ilyushin-214. And not unimportant: Russian relations and military-industrial ties with India are far better then those with Ukraine. They always have been. Russia cant'afford to write Antonov completely off though, because it desperately needs tons of factoryfresh An-124-210's because the Russian An-214 fleet is limping on it's very last legs and will soon have to be sent to the boneyard.

    Russia is very much back in the An-70 game. In fact, the Russian MOD is the primary factor behind the program continuing today. This is all according to Antonov itself.
    Russia has vastly more military industrial ties with Ukraine, even if it has been striving to cut off dependance on some Ukranian suppliers. And like Garry said, An-70 is a whole different ballgame than the Il-214, whenever see that thing.
    I am not sure why you think they desperetly ned An-124s, the current ones are just fine. MOD is committed to buying new examples this decade, when production restarts in Russia.
    I don't think we will see any new An-124s built in Ukraine again.
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    Bthebrave

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Bthebrave on Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:40 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Bthebrave wrote:Didn't Russia pull out of this program 10 years ago due to chronic test failures/reliability issues? I don't see why Russia should continue working with Antonov since investments have already been made in setting up a Joint Venture with HAL to co-develop, market and produce the Ilyushin-214. And not unimportant: Russian relations and military-industrial ties with India are far better then those with Ukraine. They always have been. Russia cant'afford to write Antonov completely off though, because it desperately needs tons of factoryfresh An-124-210's because the Russian An-214 fleet is limping on it's very last legs and will soon have to be sent to the boneyard.

    Russia is very much back in the An-70 game. In fact, the Russian MOD is the primary factor behind the program continuing today. This is all according to Antonov itself.
    Russia has vastly more military industrial ties with Ukraine, even if it has been striving to cut off dependance on some Ukranian suppliers. And like Garry said, An-70 is a whole different ballgame than the Il-214, whenever see that thing.
    I am not sure why you think they desperetly ned An-124s, the current ones are just fine. MOD is committed to buying new examples this decade, when production restarts in Russia.
    I don't think we will see any new An-124s built in Ukraine again.

    Russia needs them because it needs better, modern means of air lift capacity. Ground is covered by air. And Russia has a lot of ground to cover. Hence the need for better air transportation capability. The current An-124 fleet is worn out and technologically obsolete. The most advanced version is the -210
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:50 am

    Actually the current An-124s have been looked after, but they do need more, and will be getting them.

    They are restarting production of the An-124, and the Il=476, and there are plans to revise the design of the An-70 to update it from the mid 1990s when the design was frozen and then put it into production after it has been properly tested of course.

    The new An-124 has a reduce crew and rather more sophisticated systems but even the original was an impressive beast.

    It was the first Soviet aircraft to have a fly by wire control system.
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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Thu May 31, 2012 8:32 pm

    Russia to Buy 60 An-70 Propfans

    Russia's Military Transport Aviation (VTA) is to receive 60 Antonov An-70 propfan tactical transport aircraft by 2020, the service's commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Kachalkin said on Thursday.

    "From 2014, we will start to get the Ilyushin Il-76-MD90A (Il-476) and also the modernized Il-76MD. We are also counting on getting the new An-70," he said.

    The VTA will also take delivery of 25 Antonov An-124 super-heavy transport aircraft of various modifications by 2020, he said.

    Russian military transport aviation does not intend to buy any foreign made aircraft, he added.

    "Purchases of foreign equipment do not interest us, as Russian equipment meets our requirements," he said.

    The Ukrainian-designed An-70, which is being built together with Russia, has had a long-running and troubled gestation, with one prototype crashing in the 1990's in a collision and a second crashing in 2001 in a take-off accident in Omsk. The aircraft also had a history of snags with its propfan engines.

    Russia pulled out of the project in 2006, with Russia Air Force commander Vladimir Mikhailov stating it did not need the aircraft and would prefer the modernized Il-76, but it later rejoined the program.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120531/173771181.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:20 am

    I would like to see them ordering 110 An-70s with these 60 going to long range aviation (DA) and another 50 going to the VDV so they can truly be independent forces that don't have to beg borrow or steal aircraft from the DA to perform their missions.

    Given a decent upgrade in terms of electronics and a self defence suite that includes President-S these aircraft should be good for the VDV. The An-70 should be able to fly slower for safer jumping parameters...
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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:23 am

    PM Medvedev Orders Building New Aircraft Plant in Kazan

    Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has ordered a construction of an aircraft manufacturing plant for production of tactical transport aircraft in Kazan, Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said on Saturday.

    The mooted plant in the capital of the republic of Tatarstan will be intended in particular for the construction of Antonov An-70 propfan tactical transport aircraft and possibly in the future for the production of a new generation strategic bombers, the minister said.

    “It will be the most up-to-date plant producing An-70 aircraft, and as soon as with settle the issue with new long-range aircraft, it might be produced there as well,” Serdyukov said.

    Two weeks ago Lt. Gen. Viktor Kachalkin, the commander of Russia's Military Transport Aviation (VTA), announced that the service will receive 60 Antonov An-70 propfan tactical transport aircraft by 2020.

    The Ukrainian-designed An-70, which is being built together with Russia, has had a long-running and troubled gestation, with one prototype crashing in the 1990's in a collision and a second crashing in 2001 in a take-off accident in Omsk. The aircraft also had a history of snags with its propfan engines.

    Russia pulled out of the project in 2006, with Russia Air Force commander Vladimir Mikhailov stating it did not need the aircraft and would prefer the modernized Il-76, but it later rejoined the program.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120609/173943458.html

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Firebird on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:08 pm

    Can someone explain the advantage of propfans over jets?

    Didn't the RuAF say they'd prefer the comparable jet (Il-76) over the A-70?

    Is it more political, just trying to give work to the company - attempts at reintegration with the Ukraine etc?
    I'm a bit puzzled.

    BTW I think the An-124 is a fanatastic aircraft. I can't follow why it doesn't dominate the world is civil freight aviation.
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    TR1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:37 am

    An-124 does very well in civilian cargo roles -exactly for that reason Volga-Dnepr and Polet are onboard with the production restart plans.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:28 am

    Basically a propfan uses a jet engine to drive propellers.

    Jet engines are powerful and efficient and are good for high speed.

    The engines you see on a Boeing have a big front with big propellers inside a shroud with a small tube sticking out the back... the small tube is the jet engine and the big front are the main propellers inside the jet engine that develop most of the thrust of the engine.

    This is called a turbo fan where the small turbo jet engine basically drives a big fan to propel the aircraft.

    Pluses are it is more fuel efficient and moves a lot of air so it generates a lot of thrust.

    Minuses include the fact that the extra air moved is not moving fast as it is cold and so such an engine would be no good for supersonic flight, but for a transport or civilian airliner which are subsonic it is the most efficient way to use a jet engine.

    Of course on jets like the Tu-95 the jet engine is less visible and used to drive large external propellers where the main propulsion is from those propellers and is also subsonic.

    A propfan also uses a turbojet engine to turn external propellers though usually lots more blades than a standard turboprop.

    If you put a big shroud around a prop fan you have a high bypass turbo fan like those used on boeings.

    High bypass means most of the air goes through the big front fans but not through the little turbojet... in other words high bypass means most of the air bypasses the turbojet.

    In a modern fighter plane bypass air that doesn't go through the turbojet hot section is very useful because it is cold and oxygen rich so when you turn on the AB the fuel burns more efficiently with the extra oxygen and cold air expanding means more thrust.


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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:27 am

    Kazan plant to assemble new Antonov model

    An announcement made in Kiev Sunday said a plant in the Russian city of Kazan on the Middle Volga River will be assembling Antonov cargo jets developed by Ukraine in cooperation with Russia.

    The first model on the assembly line will be the Antonov-70. It can carry up to 50 tons of military or civilian cargo to distances of up to 5,000 kilometres at a speed of up to 750 kilometres an hour. Importantly, the plane can use short grass runways for taking off and landing.

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_07_22/Kazan-plant-to-assemble-new-Antonov-model/
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:12 am

    It can carry up to 50 tons of military or civilian cargo to distances of up to 5,000 kilometres at a speed of up to 750 kilometres an hour. Importantly, the plane can use short grass runways for taking off and landing.

    I certainly can do these things, but likely not all at once.

    For instance when operating from rough short airfields its payload will likely be 20-30 tons, or it would sink into the mud. It likely would have reduced flight range from rough airstrips unless they have inflight refuelling as they probably offloaded some fuel as well as payload to operate from grass strips.

    The Il-76 can operate from short grass strips too, but not at full weight, which means not full payload and not full range/fuel.


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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:47 pm

    Ukraine and Russia agreed on a new design of enterprise collaboration on the AN-70

    KIEV, September 11. (ARMS-TASS). Ukraine and Russia agreed on a new design of enterprise collaboration on the AN-70. This decision was taken following a visit poendelnik head Rustam Minnikhanov on SOE "Antonov" in the Ukrainian capital.

    "Interaction Program An-70 in the establishment of the production aircraft to JSC" Kazan Aviation Production Association im.S.P. Gorbunova "was the main topic of discussion at held at the state enterprise" Antonov "talks - the press-service of the company. - The parties agreed on a scheme of industrial cooperation, according to which the" production plant "Antonov" (Kiev) will be made ​​wings for the An-70. "

    Previously it was assumed that Russia AN-70 will collect in Omsk or in Ulyanovsk. In Kazan, originally planned to make wings for the aircraft.

    As President - Chief Designer "Antonov" Dmitry Kiva, "the launch of mass production is the main issue of the program An-70."

    Photo ITAR-TASS.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.armstass.su/%3Fpage%3Darticle%26aid%3D110332%26cid%3D25
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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:48 pm

    An-70 Aircraft Conducts Test Flight After 2-year Delay

    An upgraded Antonov An-70 propfan tactical transport aircraft carried out a test flight on Thursday after a two-year delay, the company's president Dmytro Kyva announced.

    He said the 32-minute flight at Ukraine's Aviasvit-XXI international airshow had been a success, and called this "the main event of the airshow."

    Test flights were suspended for two years as the An-70 underwent vital modernization work following a number of technical malfunctions in previous flights.

    The Ukrainian-designed An-70, built jointly with Russia, has had a long-running and troubled gestation period, with one prototype crashing in a collision in the 1990s, and a second crashing in 2001 in an accident during take-off in Omsk. It also had a history of problems related to its propfan engines.

    Kyva said that the company had received orders for two planes from Ukraine’s Defense Ministry, and that they would also supply them to Russia.

    Russia withdrew from the project in 2006, and Russian Air Force commander Vladimir Mikhailov was quoted as saying that it had no need for the aircraft and would prefer the modernized Il-76, but later rejoined the program.

    The Russian military is on record as planning to purchase at least 60 An-70s by 2020.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120927/176265713.html

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  a89 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:02 pm

    Russian Air Force could reject plans for acquiring An-70 due to production and cooperation difficulties with Ukraine.

    www.aex.ru/news/2013/2/5/102542/
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    Viktor

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Viktor on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:17 pm

    a89 wrote:Russian Air Force could reject plans for acquiring An-70 due to production and cooperation difficulties with Ukraine.

    www.aex.ru/news/2013/2/5/102542/

    I dont think those plans will be dismissed, but they could be delayed. Ukraine is in no shape to produce 60 AN-70 by 2020 and

    Russia needs time to assemble production for it. This shall be no easy job and Ukraine might complicate things further.
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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:55 pm

    There is the MTA with India, which should result in the Il-214, perhaps with all these problems with the Ukraine old plans for the Il-106 should be dusted off to create a plane to replace the An-22, the Il-476 should be produced in larger numbers, and an all Russian equivalent of the An-70 that is perhaps optimised for the new Russian armour being developed could be considered too.

    I suspect a further improved Il-106 with a payload of 90-100 tons and perhaps fitted with an extra set of engines to create an An-124 class aircraft (the way an extra set of engines was added to the An-124 to create the An-225) could be an option.

    Even if it is to make the Ukrainians more flexible in their negotiations.

    I would think the plans for a wide bodied airliner with China could result in a useful aircraft too.


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