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An-70 Program

Admin

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Post n°61

Re: An-70 Program

Admin Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:29 pm

Ukraine has suspended funding for the project An-70 until 2014

Kiev. November 16. Airports - Ukraine has suspended funding for state programs to establish a military transport aircraft An-70 and upgrading Mi-24 helicopters until 2014, told the director of the Department of Finance of Ukraine Ministry of Defense, Lt. Gen. Ivan Marko.

According to him, the projected levels of defense spending in 2011, these programs are not included. "The development of weapons for the first time we are sending 1.7 billion UAH (over $ 200 million). However, this resource does not touch the program" Helicopter ", as well as the AN-70", - said Igor Marko.

Director findepartamenta at the same time expressed hope that funding for these programs will begin in 2013-2014. "We do not stop the program, but stops financing" - he said.

As reported, the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine actually stopped funding the program development and creation of a military transport aircraft An-70 in late 2006

Natalia Pechorin

Austin

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Post n°62

Re: An-70 Program

Austin Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:39 pm

I say Russia should stop funding AN-70 program and should fund IL-96 Transport ,Tu-204 and IL-476 program.

AN-70 is of no benefit to Russia and is redundant over IL-476.

GarryB

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Post n°63

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:16 pm

I have a suspicion that it is the An-70 that has killed funding for the T-95.

The An-70 can take a T-90 with its extras at about 48-50 tons, but a 55 ton T-95 would be beyond its capacity.

I think when they say the T-95 design is not mobile enough they mean air mobile.

A complete digital upgrade of the An-70 would make it more useful to the Russian military and producing it in Russia will pretty much make it a Russian plane, though Antonovs ownership gives them strings to pull which could be a real problem if pro western governments get power in Ukraine again.
The upgrade might improve performance and make it cheaper to buy and operate and the delay might make licence production of more parts in Russia possible... if that is necessary.

Right now the Il-476 is the only alternative but the An-70 could certainly do a better job as it is newer in design and custom designed for the job. The Russians have already sunk quite a bit of money into the project already.

Admin

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Post n°64

Re: An-70 Program

Admin Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:35 am

T-95 has nothing to do with An-70 funding.

MBTs are rarely transported by air in the US, much less Russia. We have a rail network that is more than capable of moving tanks where they need to be. The whole point of the military district is to have all the equipment needed in prepositioned areas. The An-70 is supposed to be the replacement of VDV transport wing, not strategic airlift. An-124 is for moving tanks or anything else that is heavy.

Austin

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Post n°65

Re: An-70 Program

Austin Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:29 am

Will An-70 have a wider cargo area then IL-476 , the IL-76 seems to be slimmer and longer compared to An-70 shorter but wider.

Admin

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Post n°66

Re: An-70 Program

Admin Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:59 am

Austin wrote:Will An-70 have a wider cargo area then IL-476 , the IL-76 seems to be slimmer and longer compared to An-70 shorter but wider.

4m to 3.16... it is a bit wider.

An-70 Cargo compartment Dimension :

height: 4.1 m
Width at floor: 4 m
length: 19.1 m (22,4 m with ramp)
Floor area: 89 sq m

Il-476

An-70 Program - Page 3 1cabinil

Austin

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Post n°67

Re: An-70 Program

Austin Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:04 pm

Thanks , I thought so a wider cargo area is useful when lifting special cargo with extra dimension.

They need to involve countries who will be interested in buying An-70 like India or China and go for joint production if Ukranian cannot pay , if no one is interested in An-70 Russia should not fund it alone and should shut the program.

GarryB

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Post n°68

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:25 pm

MBTs are rarely transported by air in the US, much less Russia. We have a rail network that is more than capable of moving tanks where they need to be. The whole point of the military district is to have all the equipment needed in prepositioned areas.

Yes, of course rail or even boat is much cheaper and simpler than air transport.
The issue is that as the Russian forces get smaller they become much easier to transport by air when necessary and despite its cost it is much much quicker than any other method of transport.

The An-70 was not planned yesterday and a lot of planning and funding went into its design... it is pretty much what the Soviet Armed Forces wanted. I don't think that has since changed.

Personally I think the Russians should slow down work and redesign it with newer technology that has been developed since this aircrafts design was set in stone... and then mass produce in from about 2015 onwards for their own use. The cost and time involved in producing another aircraft is hard to justify, especially considering money already spent on the AN-70 program will not be recoverable if Russia doesn't finish development.

Perhaps the Russians should "BUY" out Antonov so that it is owned by the Russian manufacturers?

It might not have much of a role transporting around the heavy brigades but with the medium and light brigades I think they will be very much air oriented because a light force needs to be fast. That means fast deployment as well as fast in operation.

Some of those military districts are large so air mobility will allow better coverage as an option even though when time is not critical rail can be used instead.

They need to involve countries who will be interested in buying An-70 like India or China and go for joint production if Ukranian cannot pay , if no one is interested in An-70 Russia should not fund it alone and should shut the program.

It is a shame really because if the A400M didn't exist they could have approached the Germans and French and perhaps even Greece and Italy to join in with the An-70 program.

George1

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Post n°69

Re: An-70 Program

George1 Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:52 am

I cant find any logic in purchasing 2 types of intermediate aircraft, both Il-476 and An-70.

GarryB

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Post n°70

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:02 am

The Il-76 is in service and is a productive aircraft.

The An-70 is new and is supposed to get into smaller airfields than the Il-76 will be able to.

The situation is made messy by the breakup of the Soviet Union, as now that the An-70 is the product of a foreign country its purchase is no longer as appealing as it was, however it was a required tool to fill a gap.

The Il-476 was a 1990s solution to an unfriendly Ukraine that was hard to work with, and right now it is a stable known platform that a new inflight refuelling tanker, AWACS, and transport aircraft is based upon, so the upgrade benefits Russia in several areas... including improved fuel consumption and performance.

The VDV could certainly use 100 An-70s as it would be better to air drop stuff than the larger Il-76.

Most importantly if they did get 100 x An-70s they would belong to the VDV, so they wouldn't need to book in advance and hope the required aircraft are available for an air lift exercise.

On paper the An-70 can carry up to 50 tons and can fly strategic distances, but in practise I rather doubt that will be the case... the vast majority of operations will involve rather smaller payloads over shorter ranges.

If they complete or block the An-70 from seeing operation this will likely be the last joint development with Russia I suspect, as Russias needs are for longer range than the Ukraine wants or needs.

GarryB

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Post n°71

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:30 pm

Russia is no longer depend on Ukraine's production of missiles

December 25 2011 .

The business newspaper Vision, December 24. Russia has begun to support themselves for missile engines, thus getting rid of the dependence of the Ukrainian company "Motor Sich", said Friday the managing director of Scientific-Production Association "Saturn" Ilya Fedorov.

"We create small-sized motors for tactical missiles and sea-based aircraft, etc. The problem of delicate about it before we spoke little. But now you can say something. The main thing - Russia no longer depend on the Ukrainian company "Motor Sich" - said Fedorov, ITAR-TASS .

According to him, the state order for the rocket theme was "serious." "We met him and put the engines for missiles, the company" Rainbow "and of" Tactical Missiles. " This is a kind of milestone last year, "- said the director.

With regard to defense contracts, more broadly, Fyodorov said that he "made several weeks ago." For the "Saturn" is concerned, above all, the supply of D-30KP2 for transport aircraft Il-76 refueling aircraft IL-78.

"It is important to understand - Fedorov said, - that our engines have a large margin of safety. But we can not indefinitely prolong their life. We were forced to stop at some point, operation of aircraft used in the Russian Air Force, because we can not afford to risk their lives, even hypothetically, our paratroopers. It must be admitted that the Russian Defense Ministry went on to establish relations with us, though at first they were very intense, "- said the head of" Saturn ".

As reported by the newspaper VIEW, December 7, it was announced that the company "Klimov" laid the plant of the latest series of engines for helicopters Mi and Ka, which is scheduled to open in two years. This is done to relieve the Russian helicopter from its dependence on the Ukrainian manufacturers. There are currently holding "Russian Helicopters", which includes all the helicopter plants of the country, forced to buy some engines in the Ukrainian plant "Motor Sich".

http://vz.ru/

Source: http://www.militaryparitet.com/teletype/data/ic_teletype/13251/

So Russia will be making its own helicopter engines in 2013 at Klimov and Saturn is already making cruise missile engines... and presumably engines for small UAVs too.

I should also mention that the An-178 mentioned above has no chance to eclipse the MTA because it is the wrong size internally for the job.

And also that the Il-476 airframe is also used in the A-100 AWACS aircraft and also the Il-88 tanker, and other aircraft, in addition to transport roles.

Certainly cooperation with France is a good thing for both countries, but the Russian MIC will recover with or without them... it is just that with support and cooperation it will be much faster to get up to speed.

George1

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Post n°72

Re: An-70 Program

George1 Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:37 am

Ι think that An-70 procurement has to do with politics and the close relations with new Ukraine government

GarryB

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Post n°73

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:25 am

Certainly true... in both directions.

The An-70 was rejected and the Il-476 was the focus for Russia after the split when the Ukraine seemed to be looking to the EU and NATO and away from Russia.

Now that the Ukraine has had a change of heart there is the possibility for the An-70... it is not a bad aircraft, though it wont be cheap either.

It is one of several potential ties that might help restore ties between these two countries, so if it succeeds and brings both countries closer together then all the better.

The Il-476 is needed anyway as the A-100 replacement for the A-50 AWACS aircraft, and to replace older Il-76 aircraft.

They are going to need a lot of new transport aircraft so I don't really see the An-70 as a bad thing.

I would like to see them restart the Il-106 program as they will be retiring their An-22s soon and really don't have anything in that 80-90 ton payload capacity range except the An-124... which in its new versions will have a 150 ton capacity.

I think the Il-106 in an updated design with new electronics and made of new materials could be a 90-100 ton payload aircraft and ideal competition internationally for the C-17.

TR1

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Post n°74

Re: An-70 Program

TR1 Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:27 am

Ukranian gov is barely funding the project according to Antonov head, looks like future of program is mostly with Russia.

GarryB

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Post n°75

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:01 am

Well if the Ukrainian government are not interested the Russians should make an offer to "buy" the aircraft... design and all and make it a Russian aircraft.

If Antonov refuse... then they can simply just make more Il-476s.

From memory they have an Il-76 that is used for testing engines and I think it was actually used to test the new turboprop engine for the An-70, so perhaps an all turboprop version of a shortened and lightened Il-76 with a 35-40 ton payload capacity, and keep the Il-476 with its 60 ton payload capacity might be the best overall solution in the circumstances.

George1

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Post n°76

Re: An-70 Program

George1 Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:51 pm

GarryB wrote:Certainly true... in both directions.

The An-70 was rejected and the Il-476 was the focus for Russia after the split when the Ukraine seemed to be looking to the EU and NATO and away from Russia.

Now that the Ukraine has had a change of heart there is the possibility for the An-70... it is not a bad aircraft, though it wont be cheap either.

It is one of several potential ties that might help restore ties between these two countries, so if it succeeds and brings both countries closer together then all the better.

The Il-476 is needed anyway as the A-100 replacement for the A-50 AWACS aircraft, and to replace older Il-76 aircraft.

They are going to need a lot of new transport aircraft so I don't really see the An-70 as a bad thing.

I would like to see them restart the Il-106 program as they will be retiring their An-22s soon and really don't have anything in that 80-90 ton payload capacity range except the An-124... which in its new versions will have a 150 ton capacity.

I think the Il-106 in an updated design with new electronics and made of new materials could be a 90-100 ton payload aircraft and ideal competition internationally for the C-17.

I think An-70 is an interim solution until the introduction of IL/HAL MTA. It was intended to replace old An-12, though it is much heavier. It is an intermediate aircraft like A-400 airbus.

Concerning IL-106, do they need it really since they procure new IL-476s? And also more An-124? What is the purpose to introduce another type of strategic aircraft?

TR1

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Post n°77

Re: An-70 Program

TR1 Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:09 pm

An-70 is far far bigger than whatever the MTA is goign to be, so it has nothing to do with that program.

They are setting up production in Russia most likely, the aircraft is majority Russian anyways, and the RuMOD is keeping the project afloat, according to Antonov.

GarryB

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Post n°78

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:13 pm

I think An-70 is an interim solution until the introduction of IL/HAL MTA. It was intended to replace old An-12, though it is much heavier. It is an intermediate aircraft like A-400 airbus.

The An-70 has a payload of almost 50 tons, while MTA has a payload of 20 tons.

MTA will be an excellent replacement for the An-12, but An-70 has payload capacity of early Il-76s.

Concerning IL-106, do they need it really since they procure new IL-476s? And also more An-124? What is the purpose to introduce another type of strategic aircraft?

They have been using 80 ton payload An-22s for a while and seem to think they are useful.

There is a gap in payload capacity from the Il-476s of 60 tons payload and the An-124 with a 150 ton payload.

There is a fairly big gap in operating expenses that could be filled.

More to the point the only international competition in that market is the C-17, which currently sells for $500 million per plane!

George1

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Post n°79

Re: An-70 Program

George1 Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:02 pm

8tn: An-26 'Curl' (to be retired)
7tn: An-140
20tn: An-12 'Cub' (to be retired)
20tn: IL-214
50tn: An-70
50tn: IL-76 'Candid' (to be retired)
60tn: Il-476
80tn: IL-106
150tn: An-124 'Condor'

I still cant understand why 2 types at 50-60 tn payload

TR1

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Post n°80

Re: An-70 Program

TR1 Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:24 am

Well, one upside is it avoids the severe production bottleneck Smile

. The best type can be unified later in the decade after operational experience.

GarryB

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Post n°81

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:30 am

The An-70 is optimised for rough fields, and I am still very suspicious about its range performance at max weights.

The Il-476 will not only be an improved transport, but would retain the ability to carry kits for firefighting roles, and of course the dedicated inflight refuelling aircraft (Il-88), the new AWACS aircraft (A-100), and I believe there is a jammer aircraft too.

The 476 adds more powerful but also more efficient engines and a new wing and stucture to improve performance.

The An-70 is a largely unknown aircraft that could probably be given an upgrade before it even enters service as its design was frozen more than a decade ago... it has potential though.

The An-124, An-70, and Il-476 will all be made in Russia.

Bthebrave

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Post n°82

Re: An-70 Program

Bthebrave Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:45 am

Didn't Russia pull out of this program 10 years ago due to chronic test failures/reliability issues? I don't see why Russia should continue working with Antonov since investments have already been made in setting up a Joint Venture with HAL to co-develop, market and produce the Ilyushin-214. And not unimportant: Russian relations and military-industrial ties with India are far better then those with Ukraine. They always have been. Russia cant'afford to write Antonov completely off though, because it desperately needs tons of factoryfresh An-124-210's because the Russian An-214 fleet is limping on it's very last legs and will soon have to be sent to the boneyard.

GarryB

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Post n°83

Re: An-70 Program

GarryB Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:26 am

From a purely political standpoint right now the Ukraine is much less hostile to Russia, in fact in comparison to the previous administration it is friendly.

The An-70 was planned a long time ago and as such is needed.

With the Ukrainian government friendly at the moment it is important for Russia to improve ties as that encourages the pro Russians within the Ukraine and takes power away from the opposition. It could be seen as rewarding them for positive behaviour, but it also means Russia will get a useful aircraft too.

Any production of Russian An-70s will be in Russia by Russian factories, so even if at the next election that the Ukraine turns again it will not effect Russian An-70 production.

The only problem with the An-70 is that it really needs a full upgrade as a lot of progress has been made since the design was frozen, so new cockpits and new electronics and even some new materials in the structure could be applied to improve performance and operations costs before production starts.

The MTA is a 20 ton payload aircraft, and the Tu-214 is a cargo transport with side loading doors and a 25 ton payload. These aircraft make a lot of sense and they should buy those too, but the 50 ton payload of the An-70 and its ramp front and rear doors allow it to carry the vehicles of the VDV and to air drop them. The side doors of the Tu-214 are not suitable for air dropping.

The An-124 will be produced in Russia in the near future.

TR1

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Post n°84

Re: An-70 Program

TR1 Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:34 am

Bthebrave wrote:Didn't Russia pull out of this program 10 years ago due to chronic test failures/reliability issues? I don't see why Russia should continue working with Antonov since investments have already been made in setting up a Joint Venture with HAL to co-develop, market and produce the Ilyushin-214. And not unimportant: Russian relations and military-industrial ties with India are far better then those with Ukraine. They always have been. Russia cant'afford to write Antonov completely off though, because it desperately needs tons of factoryfresh An-124-210's because the Russian An-214 fleet is limping on it's very last legs and will soon have to be sent to the boneyard.

Russia is very much back in the An-70 game. In fact, the Russian MOD is the primary factor behind the program continuing today. This is all according to Antonov itself.
Russia has vastly more military industrial ties with Ukraine, even if it has been striving to cut off dependance on some Ukranian suppliers.
I am not sure why you think they desperetly ned An-124s, the current ones are just fine. MOD is committed to buying new examples this decade, when production restarts in Russia.
I don't think we will see any new An-124s built in Ukraine again.

TR1

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Post n°85

Re: An-70 Program

TR1 Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:35 am

TR1 wrote:

Bthebrave wrote:Didn't Russia pull out of this program 10 years ago due to chronic test failures/reliability issues? I don't see why Russia should continue working with Antonov since investments have already been made in setting up a Joint Venture with HAL to co-develop, market and produce the Ilyushin-214. And not unimportant: Russian relations and military-industrial ties with India are far better then those with Ukraine. They always have been. Russia cant'afford to write Antonov completely off though, because it desperately needs tons of factoryfresh An-124-210's because the Russian An-214 fleet is limping on it's very last legs and will soon have to be sent to the boneyard.

Russia is very much back in the An-70 game. In fact, the Russian MOD is the primary factor behind the program continuing today. This is all according to Antonov itself.
Russia has vastly more military industrial ties with Ukraine, even if it has been striving to cut off dependance on some Ukranian suppliers. And like Garry said, An-70 is a whole different ballgame than the Il-214, whenever see that thing.
I am not sure why you think they desperetly ned An-124s, the current ones are just fine. MOD is committed to buying new examples this decade, when production restarts in Russia.
I don't think we will see any new An-124s built in Ukraine again.

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