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    An-70 Program

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    NationalRus

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  NationalRus on Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:59 pm

    why? what does this both planes have to do with eachother?
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:56 pm

    NationalRus wrote:why? what does this both planes have to do with eachother?

    They are in competition. Any serious delay to An-70 means more Russian aircraft and less Ukrainian. Our scheduled order is based on a delivery of 2012, but if Ukraine cannot meet that deadline, we will have to buy Il-476 instead as that will start production in 2012.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:53 am

    I read a report that said the AN-70s for Russia would be made in Russia, just like the new An-124s are being made in Russia (at Ulyanovsk).
    The problem being the design is not new anymore and needs to be updated.
    In the article you posted it mentions that the problem is that the design plans are paper and not digital and only in digital format can they arrange production.
    Now I rather doubt it is the Ukrainian manufacturing industry that needs digital plans to make the plane...
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:57 am

    Some of it will be made at Ulyanovsk, some will be made in Kyiv. Like the wings and fuselage. We will also have to import the flight controls and engines as we do not make any of it. Putting a paper design already operational into CAD does not take any 5 years.

    Austin

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:29 pm

    A digital An-70 and slight delay in project ( intentional or otherwise ) is good news for IL-476.

    Now I started liking both the aircraft , I just hope we can see deep co-operation between Russia and Ukraine so that they can come up with good and competitive products.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:33 am

    Putting a paper design already operational into CAD does not take any 5 years.
    But that is the thing... they are wanting more than just a digital copy of the design, the design is actually rather old and many parts are not now state of the art. Many new materials and new electronics have been developed that could be incorporated into the design. The whole point of calling the new model IL-76 the Il-476 is because a lot of stuff will be redesigned... it will look silly if the Il-476 has a more sophisticated avionics suite than the new An-70.
    I would hope that they allow existing users of the Candid to order more aircraft too while they are building aircraft for the Russian military... there is a greater likelyhood of extra sales for the Il-76 users than for users to take on the largely unknown An-70.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:06 pm

    Ukraine doesn't make their avionics. They import it from Europe. Their engines do not have FADEC like ours.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:45 am

    Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest they did make the avionics in the Ukraine.
    What I am saying is that the design was pretty much frozen in the 1990s when the prototypes were made and the design hasn't been improved since then so the avionics and even the materials used in its construction are claimed by the Russian side to be not the latest. This is not my opinion, but the opinion of those tasked with building the aircraft.
    Whether it is true... well it sounds logical, but whether this is a real reason or if it is a delaying tactic, either way it is good for the Il-476, so I am happy too.
    Laughing

    Austin

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:51 am

    An-70 design to be see “upgrade” before mass production

    The Antonov An-70 military-transport aircraft will be upgraded and fitted out with new equipment, said Dmitry Kyva, president and general designer of the Ukraine base Antonov Corporation

    “We have launched a program to upgrade the An-70 and we have signed a plan and an adjusted technical assignment with the customer. New hardware components and avionics will be installed, he said.

    “Without changing the algorithm mechanisms of control we are changing equipment. The plane will have a new look with modern digital systems,” he said.

    Russia and Ukraine agreed in 2009 to continue modernizing the An-70 aircraft and carry out further tests.

    The An-70 is capable of carrying 300 servicemen or 20-30 tonnes of military hardware, and land on a 700 meter-long runway, Kyva said.

    It compares very favorably in terms of range, cargo lifting capability and size of the cargo compartment to its rival, the European military-transport plane A400M, recently demonstrated at air shows in Paris and London. The catalogue price of the European plane is 160 million euros. “The price of our plane is 50% lower,” Kyva said.

    It is estimated that over 10 billion euro was spent making the A400M. An additional 3-5 billion euro is needed to fine-tune the aircraft.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:56 am

    It looks like it will be a good aircraft, and the delay should allow Il-476 production to get into full swing too.

    Personally I think Ilyusion should look at restarting its Il-106 program, as the engine is ready and the market seems open to a rival to the C-17 that isn't so expensive.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:29 am

    Ukraine has suspended funding for the project An-70 until 2014

    Kiev. November 16. Airports - Ukraine has suspended funding for state programs to establish a military transport aircraft An-70 and upgrading Mi-24 helicopters until 2014, told the director of the Department of Finance of Ukraine Ministry of Defense, Lt. Gen. Ivan Marko.

    According to him, the projected levels of defense spending in 2011, these programs are not included. "The development of weapons for the first time we are sending 1.7 billion UAH (over $ 200 million). However, this resource does not touch the program" Helicopter ", as well as the AN-70", - said Igor Marko.

    Director findepartamenta at the same time expressed hope that funding for these programs will begin in 2013-2014. "We do not stop the program, but stops financing" - he said.

    As reported, the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine actually stopped funding the program development and creation of a military transport aircraft An-70 in late 2006

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    Austin

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Austin on Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:39 am

    I say Russia should stop funding AN-70 program and should fund IL-96 Transport ,Tu-204 and IL-476 program.

    AN-70 is of no benefit to Russia and is redundant over IL-476.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:16 am

    I have a suspicion that it is the An-70 that has killed funding for the T-95.

    The An-70 can take a T-90 with its extras at about 48-50 tons, but a 55 ton T-95 would be beyond its capacity.

    I think when they say the T-95 design is not mobile enough they mean air mobile.

    A complete digital upgrade of the An-70 would make it more useful to the Russian military and producing it in Russia will pretty much make it a Russian plane, though Antonovs ownership gives them strings to pull which could be a real problem if pro western governments get power in Ukraine again.
    The upgrade might improve performance and make it cheaper to buy and operate and the delay might make licence production of more parts in Russia possible... if that is necessary.

    Right now the Il-476 is the only alternative but the An-70 could certainly do a better job as it is newer in design and custom designed for the job. The Russians have already sunk quite a bit of money into the project already.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:35 pm

    T-95 has nothing to do with An-70 funding.

    MBTs are rarely transported by air in the US, much less Russia. We have a rail network that is more than capable of moving tanks where they need to be. The whole point of the military district is to have all the equipment needed in prepositioned areas. The An-70 is supposed to be the replacement of VDV transport wing, not strategic airlift. An-124 is for moving tanks or anything else that is heavy.

    Austin

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:29 am

    Will An-70 have a wider cargo area then IL-476 , the IL-76 seems to be slimmer and longer compared to An-70 shorter but wider.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:59 am

    Austin wrote:Will An-70 have a wider cargo area then IL-476 , the IL-76 seems to be slimmer and longer compared to An-70 shorter but wider.

    4m to 3.16... it is a bit wider.

    An-70 Cargo compartment Dimension :

    height: 4.1 m
    Width at floor: 4 m
    length: 19.1 m (22,4 m with ramp)
    Floor area: 89 sq m

    Il-476



    Austin

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:04 am

    Thanks , I thought so a wider cargo area is useful when lifting special cargo with extra dimension.

    They need to involve countries who will be interested in buying An-70 like India or China and go for joint production if Ukranian cannot pay , if no one is interested in An-70 Russia should not fund it alone and should shut the program.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:25 am

    MBTs are rarely transported by air in the US, much less Russia. We have a rail network that is more than capable of moving tanks where they need to be. The whole point of the military district is to have all the equipment needed in prepositioned areas.

    Yes, of course rail or even boat is much cheaper and simpler than air transport.
    The issue is that as the Russian forces get smaller they become much easier to transport by air when necessary and despite its cost it is much much quicker than any other method of transport.


    The An-70 was not planned yesterday and a lot of planning and funding went into its design... it is pretty much what the Soviet Armed Forces wanted. I don't think that has since changed.

    Personally I think the Russians should slow down work and redesign it with newer technology that has been developed since this aircrafts design was set in stone... and then mass produce in from about 2015 onwards for their own use. The cost and time involved in producing another aircraft is hard to justify, especially considering money already spent on the AN-70 program will not be recoverable if Russia doesn't finish development.

    Perhaps the Russians should "BUY" out Antonov so that it is owned by the Russian manufacturers?

    It might not have much of a role transporting around the heavy brigades but with the medium and light brigades I think they will be very much air oriented because a light force needs to be fast. That means fast deployment as well as fast in operation.

    Some of those military districts are large so air mobility will allow better coverage as an option even though when time is not critical rail can be used instead.

    They need to involve countries who will be interested in buying An-70 like India or China and go for joint production if Ukranian cannot pay , if no one is interested in An-70 Russia should not fund it alone and should shut the program.

    It is a shame really because if the A400M didn't exist they could have approached the Germans and French and perhaps even Greece and Italy to join in with the An-70 program.
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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:52 pm

    I cant find any logic in purchasing 2 types of intermediate aircraft, both Il-476 and An-70.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:02 pm

    The Il-76 is in service and is a productive aircraft.

    The An-70 is new and is supposed to get into smaller airfields than the Il-76 will be able to.

    The situation is made messy by the breakup of the Soviet Union, as now that the An-70 is the product of a foreign country its purchase is no longer as appealing as it was, however it was a required tool to fill a gap.

    The Il-476 was a 1990s solution to an unfriendly Ukraine that was hard to work with, and right now it is a stable known platform that a new inflight refuelling tanker, AWACS, and transport aircraft is based upon, so the upgrade benefits Russia in several areas... including improved fuel consumption and performance.

    The VDV could certainly use 100 An-70s as it would be better to air drop stuff than the larger Il-76.

    Most importantly if they did get 100 x An-70s they would belong to the VDV, so they wouldn't need to book in advance and hope the required aircraft are available for an air lift exercise.

    On paper the An-70 can carry up to 50 tons and can fly strategic distances, but in practise I rather doubt that will be the case... the vast majority of operations will involve rather smaller payloads over shorter ranges.

    If they complete or block the An-70 from seeing operation this will likely be the last joint development with Russia I suspect, as Russias needs are for longer range than the Ukraine wants or needs.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:30 am

    Russia is no longer depend on Ukraine's production of missiles

    December 25 2011 .

    The business newspaper Vision, December 24. Russia has begun to support themselves for missile engines, thus getting rid of the dependence of the Ukrainian company "Motor Sich", said Friday the managing director of Scientific-Production Association "Saturn" Ilya Fedorov.


    "We create small-sized motors for tactical missiles and sea-based aircraft, etc. The problem of delicate about it before we spoke little. But now you can say something. The main thing - Russia no longer depend on the Ukrainian company "Motor Sich" - said Fedorov, ITAR-TASS .



    According to him, the state order for the rocket theme was "serious." "We met him and put the engines for missiles, the company" Rainbow "and of" Tactical Missiles. " This is a kind of milestone last year, "- said the director.



    With regard to defense contracts, more broadly, Fyodorov said that he "made several weeks ago." For the "Saturn" is concerned, above all, the supply of D-30KP2 for transport aircraft Il-76 refueling aircraft IL-78.



    "It is important to understand - Fedorov said, - that our engines have a large margin of safety. But we can not indefinitely prolong their life. We were forced to stop at some point, operation of aircraft used in the Russian Air Force, because we can not afford to risk their lives, even hypothetically, our paratroopers. It must be admitted that the Russian Defense Ministry went on to establish relations with us, though at first they were very intense, "- said the head of" Saturn ".



    As reported by the newspaper VIEW, December 7, it was announced that the company "Klimov" laid the plant of the latest series of engines for helicopters Mi and Ka, which is scheduled to open in two years. This is done to relieve the Russian helicopter from its dependence on the Ukrainian manufacturers. There are currently holding "Russian Helicopters", which includes all the helicopter plants of the country, forced to buy some engines in the Ukrainian plant "Motor Sich".

    http://vz.ru/

    Source: http://www.militaryparitet.com/teletype/data/ic_teletype/13251/

    So Russia will be making its own helicopter engines in 2013 at Klimov and Saturn is already making cruise missile engines... and presumably engines for small UAVs too.

    I should also mention that the An-178 mentioned above has no chance to eclipse the MTA because it is the wrong size internally for the job.

    And also that the Il-476 airframe is also used in the A-100 AWACS aircraft and also the Il-88 tanker, and other aircraft, in addition to transport roles.

    Certainly cooperation with France is a good thing for both countries, but the Russian MIC will recover with or without them... it is just that with support and cooperation it will be much faster to get up to speed.
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    George1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:37 am

    Ι think that An-70 procurement has to do with politics and the close relations with new Ukraine government
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:25 am

    Certainly true... in both directions.

    The An-70 was rejected and the Il-476 was the focus for Russia after the split when the Ukraine seemed to be looking to the EU and NATO and away from Russia.

    Now that the Ukraine has had a change of heart there is the possibility for the An-70... it is not a bad aircraft, though it wont be cheap either.

    It is one of several potential ties that might help restore ties between these two countries, so if it succeeds and brings both countries closer together then all the better.

    The Il-476 is needed anyway as the A-100 replacement for the A-50 AWACS aircraft, and to replace older Il-76 aircraft.

    They are going to need a lot of new transport aircraft so I don't really see the An-70 as a bad thing.

    I would like to see them restart the Il-106 program as they will be retiring their An-22s soon and really don't have anything in that 80-90 ton payload capacity range except the An-124... which in its new versions will have a 150 ton capacity.

    I think the Il-106 in an updated design with new electronics and made of new materials could be a 90-100 ton payload aircraft and ideal competition internationally for the C-17.
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    TR1

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:27 pm

    Ukranian gov is barely funding the project according to Antonov head, looks like future of program is mostly with Russia.
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    GarryB

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    Re: An-70 Program

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:01 am

    Well if the Ukrainian government are not interested the Russians should make an offer to "buy" the aircraft... design and all and make it a Russian aircraft.

    If Antonov refuse... then they can simply just make more Il-476s.

    From memory they have an Il-76 that is used for testing engines and I think it was actually used to test the new turboprop engine for the An-70, so perhaps an all turboprop version of a shortened and lightened Il-76 with a 35-40 ton payload capacity, and keep the Il-476 with its 60 ton payload capacity might be the best overall solution in the circumstances.

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