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    Concept n_n

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    nightcrawler
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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:04 am


    A Ramjet or Scramjet has the advantage of any jet engine in that you can fly it in an optimal trajectory... you burn extra fuel climbing, but the reduced drag means it flys faster and further and much of the energy lost in the climb can be recovered in the dive on target... so high throttle to climb... low throttle to cruise to the target area and then high throttle again for the terminal phase for maximum terminal energy.

    A Rocket can't do that exactly, but it can mimic it.


    you can very well imitate the propulsion profile of the solid propelled missile as that of liquid propelled. However in the latter case as well ramjet the control over propulsion profile is very flexible (as explained by Garry in throttling mechanism)
    This too can be achieved as follows:

    Most of the missile including AAMs are made air to surface just by adding more solid dart in tandem..SLAMRAAM for instance.
    In solid propulsion the darts are filled with specially configured shapes what we chemical engineering. call them GRAIN CONFIGURATION.

    So for instance you want to have a surface to air missile demanding a high initial through put (boosting) & then maintaining specific impulse (a thrust measurement) you will have this configuration...(assuming burning from inside..missile also burn from the shell inwards)

    more surface area greater rate of combustion..& then the star shape be dissolved & then you get a uniform thrust for levelling; range gain & less fuel burns...

    For terminal boosting goosh it was difficult for us to simulate. you have to use very comples design such as these


    so you see that when you go for different profiles in a single dart the geometry of grain becomes difficult so instead of achieving various profiles in a single dart you go for multiple darts there are easy to manufacture at mass scale with less precise geometery controls..

    For example for terminal phase you can invert the grain profile & let the dart burn form shell inwards...such technique is easy & you get a very high dash but you also get a weight penalty by increasing dart number for each profile Sad




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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:15 am

    For those of us that are not engineers what the piece nightcrawler has posted is talking about modifying the solid fuel to change how it burns.

    It omits that different energy solid fuel can also be used as well.

    Old rockets used to use solidly packed rocket fuel that burns from the bottom to the top like a sky rocket burns black powder.

    The problem with this design in a rather more powerful rocket is that the walls of the rocket needs to be able to withstand very high pressures and high temperatures.

    A solution to that was to make the solid fuel truly solid rather than just a powder and then drill a hole right up the centre. This means when the rocket ignites rather than the surface of the base of the solid rocket fuel burning and pushing against the walls of the rocket the entire core of the rocket fuel burns... generating more surface area and more pressure but it is pushing out against the remaining fuel which supports the pressure and absorbs the heat so the rocket motor walls can be made thinner and less strong... in other words lighter.

    To increase thrust further instead of drilling a circle you can drill a star shape which increases surface area and therefore burning area further increasing thrust with the same fuel. Obviously there is no free ride... drilling the core and using star shaped core design to maximise surface area also dramatically reduces burn time because the fuel burns faster. The pressure is however much higher and would get a missile to a higher peak speed.

    Most solid fuels are actually baked like a cake and as with most cake recipes what they often do is use different energy fuels so the first inner layer that burns first is a high energy fast burning fuel, while the second layer burns slower but much much longer. This means that when you launch a missile the first layer burns rapidly and accelerates the missile up to its max speed. When that burns up the next layer burns and it is not powerful enough to keep accelerating the missile but it burns for much longer than the first layer and helps the missile overcome drag and maintain velocity and energy till it reaches the target. In many ways the second fuel acts like a gas generator to overcome drag like base bleed ammo extends the range of artillery shells.

    Anyway what I originally wanted to say is that you can shape the thrust of a solid rocket motor with different fuel types and different fuel shapes, but at the end of the day this is fixed for a solid fuelled rocket.

    A solid fuelled rocket like a Phoenix might be optimised to be fired from medium to high altitude at a very long range target but any profile expected for the missile will disadvantage the missile if it is used outside of that expected flight envelope.

    For instance the missile is designed to be fired from medium to high altitude and cruise for a period and then dive on the target... If launched at low level at a target that is outside Sparrow range but not by much then the missile will enter its terminal manouver flight stage with a lot of cruise fuel left... so it is over weight, and is generating enough thrust to overcome drag and the initial high energy fuel was not enough to allow it to climb to more than medium altitude so it is flying in much thicker air than was anticipated so it is flying slower on its way too.

    Another problem with rocket fuel is that it is either on or off and when it is on you might find that a lot of energy is being wasted.

    What I mean by that is that at very low level there are not many objects that can exceed Mach 2 no matter how powerful their rocket motors are. If you launch a Mach 4 AMRAAM at low altitude... it will not be a Mach 4 AMRAAM... it will be a Mach 2 AMRAAM, which greatly reduces its maximum range. The thing is that they both have the same rocket motor and are expending the same amount of energy... the problem is that trying to fly at mach 4 at low altitude is a waste of energy.

    A Meteor is a mach 4 or 5 missile and with an engine throttle if launched at low level it will use a reduced throttle and will likely fly at mach 1.5-2 depending on the design and how efficient it is. It wont however be running its engine at full power and full fuel burn and so it should be able to fly rather further than a similar rocket powered missile. The reason is that an onboard computer can optimise the thrust and fuel burn rate to get the most efficient use of fuel.

    Stealthflanker
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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:02 am

    nightcrawler wrote:

    A Ramjet or Scramjet has the advantage of any jet engine in that you can fly it in an optimal trajectory... you burn extra fuel climbing, but the reduced drag means it flys faster and further and much of the energy lost in the climb can be recovered in the dive on target... so high throttle to climb... low throttle to cruise to the target area and then high throttle again for the terminal phase for maximum terminal energy.

    A Rocket can't do that exactly, but it can mimic it.


    you can very well imitate the propulsion profile of the solid propelled missile as that of liquid propelled. However in the latter case as well ramjet the control over propulsion profile is very flexible (as explained by Garry in throttling mechanism)
    This too can be achieved as follows:





    I know this well thanks.. playing with grain shape.. unfortunately it's "modulation potential" is limited , other way is to put a "pintle" in the nozzle or retractable silver wire in the grain .


    Hmm Orbital Mechanics for SAM's Very Happy

    The graph is bit misleading... the missile is actually lying 317km from that 80 km Apogee..instead of depicted 250 km .

    280 Km is the Launch range for Sub sonic target with Vt= Mach 0,85 at 12.000 m ..the 250 km is the "F-pole range" it is a distance between launcher and target where target is expected to be destroyed.


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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:41 pm

    Finally i can get my RADAR Cross Section simulation program to work Very Happy

    so i can finally "prove" and "test" my design rules to achieve low RCS .

    anyway here is the result of a measurement and comparison i did 2 days ago Very Happy

    http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/175/9/9/aircraft_rcs_comparison_by_stealthflanker-d3ju5hn.jpg

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  nightcrawler on Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:22 am

    ^^Good work.

    other way is to put a "pintle" in the nozzle or retractable silver wire in the grain .


    can you explain little bit more..thnx

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:30 am

    nightcrawler wrote:^^Good work.

    other way is to put a "pintle" in the nozzle or retractable silver wire in the grain .


    can you explain little bit more..thnx


    Thanks a lot .

    Well about "Pintle" it's basically a control valve, used to control burn rate by modifying the combustion chamber pressure, the pintle consist of aperture , the valve itself and actuating mechanism .

    The control mechanism is work as follows :

    If high propellant burn rate is desired, the valve will "close" , this will increase chamber pressure and later resulted with higher burn rate of the propellant , and contributing to higher thrust .

    In the other hand if lower burn rate is desired , the valve will "open" , resulting with lower chamber pressure and lower burn rate of the propellant , therefore resulted with lower thrust .


    Nozzle pintle well the over simplified stuff




    The kinds of Pintle , from my AGARD research paper collection, well they're used to control fuel flow in solid rocket ramjet/ducted rocket powered missiles like MBDA Meteor, however their principles are pretty much the same .






    As for the Silver wires , here is a passage from "Solid Fuel Ram Rockets"



    image


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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:31 pm

    And now since we have SOC in this forum Very Happy

    hmm what do you think on "Mobile version" of our old S-200 SAM System ...





    hmm the TEL is well pretty much my own stuff..it can perform re-fueling and de-fueling operation of the mounted 5V28 missile .

    This is the new engagement RADAR to replace our old .. 5N62 "square pair".. well it's completely my imagination.. again BUT i think it's the most capable solution for reducing cost.. using Reflective phased array like the 64N6 "Big Bird"

    I call this thing as "Cheerubia"



    Alternatively of course purchasing S-300PMU-2 would be good options since it can control S-200.. however since potential client for this scheme are being Embargoed by US and friends (except Syria maybe ?) ..my "mobile" S-200 above.. should be useful.. not against fighter jets or cruise missile.. but to kill AWACS, JSTARS , the noise making MC-130 Compass Call ... or any other aircraft having "E" initial before numbers.

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:37 am

    From a design standpoint I find this thing to be ridiculously awesome. I want one! The only thing you're missing are some pretty solid deployable struts to brace the TEL for firing. S-300P series TELs use puny little ones because there isn't much force exerted by the cold-launched missile ejection, but this thing will be another story entirely. I do find the radar vehicle and the array design to be pretty interesting as well.

    From a practical standpoint, an export nation is better off acquiring the S-300PMU-2 or waiting for the S-400. They're far more modern missiles, and can engage pretty much whatever endoatmospheric target they want as they retain far more maneuvering capability over their envelope than the S-200. You loose a little bit of range with the PMU-2, but it's worth the tradeoff. Besides, the large TELs and the all-new radar would make for an expensive upgrade, probably to the point where the other systems aren't much more expensive anyway. And then you also have to upgrade the missiles; if you do all of this work and then retain the archaic SARH seekers, you haven't really made the system any more effective. If you don't change the seekers, existing ECM systems will likely be able to defeat the new model, provided they could handle the non-mobile S-200.

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:30 pm

    SOC wrote:From a design standpoint I find this thing to be ridiculously awesome. I want one! The only thing you're missing are some pretty solid deployable struts to brace the TEL for firing. S-300P series TELs use puny little ones because there isn't much force exerted by the cold-launched missile ejection, but this thing will be another story entirely. I do find the radar vehicle and the array design to be pretty interesting as well.


    Hehehe thanks Very Happy , yeah i haven't put any strut XD.

    As for the RADAR, well i see circular array.. with Big Bird style reflective phased array , would be cheaper and easier to manufacture , and will surely exceed those 5N62 RADAR.. in terms of resistance toward jammer and may offer some basic "LPI" capability in shape of agile beam steering , and it can provide multiple target engagement capability, no differs than MiG-31's Zaslon or the 5N63 phased array.

    In the down side.. this arrangement may have lower receiver and sidelobe performance , because of the antenna feed which act as a "aperture blockage" and this scheme may have higher loss .

    Oh and this is the "Wilder" version of my Mobile S-200 Very Happy i call this thing Edea , the missile has new seeker .. and there's another missile with passive anti radiation seekers, with IR backup .



    Might not really practical.. but well i love this words "Double the gun double the fun"


    From a practical standpoint, an export nation is better off acquiring the S-300PMU-2 or waiting for the S-400. They're far more modern missiles, and can engage pretty much whatever endoatmospheric target they want as they retain far more maneuvering capability over their envelope than the S-200. You loose a little bit of range with the PMU-2, but it's worth the tradeoff. Besides, the large TELs and the all-new radar would make for an expensive upgrade, probably to the point where the other systems aren't much more expensive anyway. And then you also have to upgrade the missiles; if you do all of this work and then retain the archaic SARH seekers, you haven't really made the system any more effective. If you don't change the seekers, existing ECM systems will likely be able to defeat the new model, provided they could handle the non-mobile S-200.


    Agree Very Happy .. but none the less.. at least for "national pride" side being able to "mobilize" the fixed S-200 and giving it better capability would provide some deterrence .

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  SOC on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:46 am

    OK, from an aesthetic viewpoint, the twin-rail TEL is awesome. Not sure how the balancing would work firing off one of those, but it looks cool as hell. Have you modeled anything in-service in 3D?

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:20 pm

    Stealthflanker, you're a boss!


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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:55 pm

    SOC wrote:OK, from an aesthetic viewpoint, the twin-rail TEL is awesome. Not sure how the balancing would work firing off one of those, but it looks cool as hell. Have you modeled anything in-service in 3D?


    thanks a lot Very Happy

    Hmm well so far i'm only make the missiles used by the systems, like the 5V21/28 family for S-200, 5V55 and 48N6 for S-300 family and 9M82 and 9M83 ..

    I would like to model the complete system sometime..hmm However i'm more interested to design my own Air Defense Systems

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:57 pm

    Well it's beeen a while since my very last visit here..

    hmm let's have a drawing session.

    These jets aren't for fighting..but more like aerobatic purpose. Their configuration and weight is set for maximum aerobatic performance and extreme controlability, provided by delta canard configuration and 3D TVC.

    Potential customers for these beauties are rich people, aerobatic teams and any other aviation enthusiasts willing to spend some U$ ~25.000.000.

    Shalya Emeria
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    Shalya Meritreya, twin seat version of Emeria.

    http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/033/a/8/shalya_meritreya_preview_by_stealthflanker-d4ogrcx.png

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri May 04, 2012 8:11 pm

    Anyone into Compound Helicopter ?


    Alice Hawkeye.
    http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/125/0/e/alice_hawkeye_compound_aircraft_by_stealthflanker-d4ylix7.png

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    Re: Concept n_n

    Post  AZZKIKR on Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:48 pm

    Hello, this is my first post, I hope its not necro-ing an old post ><

    Something I modelled called the MAZ-365. Utilising a MAZ chassis, the command vehicle of the Russian Armed Forces come equipped with an advanced radar suite, and a turret equipped with SA-19s and twin 30mm cannons, allowing the vehicle to defend itself against infantry ambushes or aerial threats.

    I know its not that realistic, but then I didnt use much references ><


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