GarryB wrote:Just for clarification Austin where it says serial production starting this year... do they mean the Russian 338 calibre ammo or the rifle?

Garry ,I found the pictures on MP.net and posted it along with the caption , not sure what the source was since the original source or link is not present.

I presume the person who posted it got it from a Russian page and just translated the caption.

No apologies required ,we are just here to learn and share .....Although I learn much more then I share

No apologies required ,we are just here to learn and share .....Although I learn much more then I share

The apology was totally necessary, you posted a photo... contributing as usual, and my reply sounded like I was a grumpy school master correcting a student.

It is a shame we don't know the source of the photo.

It would be quite interesting to identify who was using this rifle and in what context.

Was it a shooting event? A test?

The two calibres suggest it was a long range shoot.

Was it a government department or police or armed forces?

If this is for GRU snipers or VDV snipers it could suggest a test between a 12.7mm and a 338 LM rifle... they are clearly extending their targeting range. The range you would be using either rifle would be 1,000m plus which might explain the presence of each rifle as despite the designations you would be unlikely to see rifles like the SV-98 and SV-99 sharing a shooting mound.
The 12.7mm has the advantage of actually being in service, but the special ammo needed to make a 12.7mm calibre rifle useful and the fact that using standard rifle ammo in that calibre would be an enormous waste of the weapons potential means that there is no advantage in using a standard calibre... it is not like you will find match grade 50 cal ammo lying all over the place on the battlefield.

I suspect both will be different enough to warrant the use of both weapons in both calibres... but because we don't know who was using the rifles it is hard to make any guesses...

GarryB wrote:It would be quite interesting to identify who was using this rifle and in what context.

Was it a shooting event? A test?

Well I have asked the original poster to provide more details if possible.

Lets see if he has any or we will have to wait.

Garry , this is what I got when asked for reference ,f-gen, a guy from KBP who seems to be the source , you will have to use translation to figure this out as its in russian.

http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/topic524-600.html

He seems to maintain photo album here

http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/album_personal.php?user_id=10003

Thanks for doing some leg work for me Austin, I appreciate it.

The fact that the guy works for KBP, which makes both rifles suggests he was testing on a long range which as anyone who shoots knows is a pain because of the distance to check performance and recover the targets.
He might have been testing them both at once because the walk/drive to the target is similar so doing both at the same time reduces walk/drive time to the target for the results.

I also suspect however that he probably wanted a comparison of performance at different ranges and the 12.7 is about the only round that could compete out to 1,200m.

That photo album of his was worth the effort alone... looks good.

Now I have some translating to do...

1. rifle not of the tree, but also not usual plastic.

2. whose will cartridges - solve to buyer, depending on the size of his purse.

3. close grouping is considerably better than angular minute.

4. entire assembly (muzzle brake, supports,
trigger mechanism so forth) also on the demand of customer, rifle is
modular construction.

5. series will be already in this year, practically release already begins.

6. you already will excuse, thus far without the special details) "

7. throw down [ssylochku] on to Hansa, but that I in no way will find…

1. New plastic (resin?) stock
2. Buyer can choose ammo based on price.
3. Sub MOA accuracy.
4. Modular design with customer options.
5. Close to production status.
6. can't give away all secrets yet.
7. ?

The above is regarding the new 338 LM model rifle. There is the 7.62 x 54mm and 7.62 x 51mm model. Work is starting on 300 magnum model and when that is complete a 12.7mm model will be started.

Couldn't find any mention of who the rifle was aimed at... so to speak.

There was an SVD model in 9.3 x 64mm calibre called the SVDK. I wonder if they will bother with a 338 model?

The Russian military seems to like follow up shots over absolute precision.

GarryB wrote:1. New plastic (resin?) stock

Polymers I believe , they have been extensively using polymers , polymers can include natural materials and plastics.

Yes, that will be what he means.

The new black synthetics used for the Kalashnikovs are the same I think.

Probably better able to take the harsh temperature changes than any sort of wood, and being less dangerous than metal in extremely low or high temperatures too.

...plus it looks cool.

yeah it does , the gun that the child was holding not sure as of yet if its a real or plastic , but it seems to use the new polymers which gives it a toy like look and smooth finish , something you cannot see with metals or woods.

Seems to be the legendary Lebed , was present at the flag presenting ceremony yesterday , thats a interesting SF vehical

http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/174023

That kids toy has been in service since the late 1980s...

http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/archive/asvssen.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS_assault_rifle

http://www.tulatoz.ru/en/milas.html

and is reportedly very popular with those that use it.
The ammo is relatively expensive so it must be pretty good to justify yet another calibre for their armed forces.
Kalashnikov have even made a competing design in 9 x 39mm called the AK-9 in an attempt to get some action. AFAIK they even had a 30 shot mag developed for it (AK-9) to enhance its appeal.

Regarding the VDV vid, I believe the vehicle is of his design (Lebed)... it seems he took and existing vehicle and stripped away everything that wasn't essential and started from there.

That things looks lethal , They seem to use heavy but subsonic round perhaps for body armour penetration ?

Yes, there is a particular round specifically designed to penetrate body armour.

There are three main rounds for these rifles in 9 x 39mm, the SP-6 is for penetrating body armour, the SP-5 is a more accurate round for sniper rifles against targets not wearing body armour, though it can still penetrate a steel helmet and retain enough energy to kill at 400m while the PAB-9 round is relatively cheap to produce and good for targets at normal combat ranges.

Being a suppressed weapon round the velocity can't be higher than 290-300m/s, they have rounds in 5.45mm and 7.62 x 39mm that are subsonic to be fired in suppressed AKs but the 5.45mm round weighs 80 grain which isn't even as heavy as a 7.62 x 39mm round. The subsonic 7.62 x 39mm round is about 193 grain.
Obviously the 9 x 39mm round can't be faster but by being heavier it has more energy and the extra weight of its 250 gain projectiles mean it retains velocity better too.

For sneaky sneaky troops an AS or VSS is ideal but for normal troops or for an ambush a 7.62 x 39mm AK-103 with a suppressor fitted with subsonic ammo in the first 1 or 2 mags and supersonic ammo in the rest means that initially you can take down sentrys or dogs, but when the enemy is alert you can use full velocity ammo with a much longer effective range and more power.

Of course the list of weapons that use the 9 x 39mm round is quite long now... the AS, VSS, Groza, SR-3, 9A-91, and AK-9 that I know of.

A nice FireArm FAQ

link

Repeats the old myth about looser tolerances making the AK more reliable but less accurate than other western rifles.

This is BS.

Take a modern AK and you will find the tolerances are not loose... nothing rattles. It is designed to operate with excess energy so if the weapon is dirty the mass of the bolt carrier is something like 5 times more than the mass of the bolt so it has plenty of energy to cycle the action no matter how dirty the weapon is.

The only issue regarding accuracy with the old AK was that the heavy projectile wasn't travelling very fast so it has a fairly curved trajectory... especially past 300m. From 300m to 400m the bullet drop is something like 1m so if you aim centre chest at a target that is 400m away with the sights set to the battle sight position of 300m then your bullet will be hitting their feet or in rough uneven ground the dirt in front of them.

What is important however is that at any range up to about 340m you can aim for the chest and get a good hit.

At 300m with the sights set for 300m, then if the target is 10m in front of you you will hit them a few centimetres above the centre chest aimpoint. At about 100m you will get a low head shot with a central chest aimpoint. At 150m you will get a centre face head shot, and at 200m you will get a throat hit. At 250m you will get an upper chest hit and at 300m you will get a central chest hit. At about 340m you will likely get a gut shot.

All with the same 300m battle setting using a centre chest aim point in an emergency you should get a decent hit on a target.

Once beyond 300m the bullet starts to fall rapidly however and range to target becomes vital to get a clean hit.

Smaller faster rounds don't drop as much and make getting hits easier at longer ranges because range estimation errors influence the impact point less.

With accurate range to target information the 7.62 x 39mm is no worse than 5.56... in fact it is rather heavier so it retains energy and is less effected by cross winds or less likely to be deflected by light cover.