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Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011! 5 4.8 25

    Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

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    milky_candy_sugar
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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:22 pm

    I totally want that AK-200....
    Btw, how much would an AK-105 cost?


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    GarryB
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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:12 am

    http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/36.html

    for the 7.62 x 39mm and 5.56mm versions

    US $386-571 depending on the version (one version with removable muzzle brake and unable to fire when stock is folded, cheaper model with removable MB and able to fire with folding stock folded) and of course the numbers you order... buy a huge number and get a lower price.

    Personally I like the .22LR version here:

    http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/191.html

    This would be fun too:

    http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/296.html

    But I would want more than a 10 round mag for both of them.

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:36 pm

    This is a nice submachine gun PP-2000


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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:21 pm

    Blah, so no Balanced recoil, improved Iron sights and Picatinny rails, that's it?

    I agree with Garry's sentiments, just making a AK into a M4, but that's not too bad, it still retains it's reliability so basically a Russian upgraded M4.


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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:28 am

    Blah, so no Balanced recoil, improved Iron sights and Picatinny rails, that's it?


    Where did you get all that from?

    From the picture shown I would say it does have a balanced recoil system, which along with the already efficient muzzle brake and low recoil 5.45mm round would make it a very stable gun to fire in single shot, or burst fire.

    I rather suspect there will only be backup iron sights and that a small cheap scope will be fitted as standard... it will likely have a fairly low magnification for a nice wide field of view but magnifying scopes and even night vision scopes could be mounted in front of it if necessary so that the rifle wont need to be re-zeroed.

    Picatinny rails means that a Russian soldier can either use issued tacticrap, or buy his own from western and soon presumably Russian sources. It also means that there will soon be lots of Russian tacticrap to add to the existing tacticrap on the market so wannabes can drag rifles around the place covered in all sorts of rubbish.

    I agree with Garry's sentiments, just making a AK into a M4, but that's not too bad, it still retains it's reliability so basically a Russian upgraded M4.


    Not really.
    An M4 is simply a short barrel M16.
    This AK-200 is not just a short barrel AK-74.
    It introduces an improved recoil mechanism that almost eliminates recoil... which the M4 does not do.
    The AK gets its reliability because of the weight ratio between the bolt carrier and the bolt.
    This gives the bolt carrier a lot of energy to move the bolt... even when the rifle is dirty.
    This added to the felt recoil but not hugely so.
    This recoil balancing system solves that problem.
    It introduces a large capacity magazine, which the M4 does not do.
    It retains the same barrel length of the original rifle, which the M4 does not do... because the M16 is a very long rifle, while the AK-74 is not.

    At the end of the day an M4 is a short barrel assault rifle that is good to normal combat ranges but without the fragmentation effect of the long barrel 5.56mm rifles like the M16 or SA80.
    The AK-200 fires a round not dependant on terminal velocity for a lethal effect as its round is designed to tumble on impact at any speed.

    This is a low impact cosmetic update, that improves sighting improves compatibility with various extras, and improves handling, at the expense of a slight increase in complication and manufacturing costs. Handling and maintainence will not have dramatically changed.

    This is a half step weapon you introduce while you either complete or start work on something much more radical possibly involving new types of propellent, new types of ammo... etc.

    I would guess if they are moving to plastic cased ammo or caseless ammo that the first calibre they will change is the 7.62 x 54mmR calibre rifles and machine guns.

    They could possibly even have a transitional ammunition with very compact propellent with very long projectiles that reach right back to where the primer is with the rear of the projectile acting as the primer with propellent around it and fin stabilisers at the rear where the projectile narrows. Such a long projectile cannot be spun fast enough to stabilise it with rifling so a couple of plastic driving bands (or in this case slipping bands) on the body of the projectile to reduce the spin effect of the rifling so that the very long projectile can be stabilised in flight by the tail fins. The combination of heavy mass and high velocity should result in fairly long effective flight range and flat trajectory... both useful for sniper rifles and machine guns.

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:07 pm

    The guy even said that Balanced recoil will require a complete redesign of the inerts which is "not affordable" in today's economy so I wouldn't think there's Balanced Recoil in the AK-200.

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:51 am

    The guy even said that Balanced recoil will require a complete redesign of the inerts which is "not affordable" in today's economy so I wouldn't think there's Balanced Recoil in the AK-200.


    What guy?

    And he is full of it.

    The AK-107 and AK-108 already have balanced recoil systems and have the added advantage of burst fire modes too.

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-10710-e.html


    The Russians have been playing around with balanced recoil systems for rifles since the AKM was replaced by the AK-74.

    The AK-74 won because it was cheaper to make and simpler to train troops to use because it was just an AKM in a different calibre.

    The AN-94 won in 1994 because of its accuracy and performance despite its complication and manufacturing difficulty.

    I would suspect the AK-200 with the AK-107/108s balanced recoil system would not be as complex to make or maintain as the AN-94 yet would offer a significant improvement in performance over the AK-74 especially in a 3 round burst fire mode.
    At combat ranges a balanced recoil system and low recoil ammo and effective muzzle brake with a heavier 60 round mag would likely result in 3 round bursts putting all three rounds on or near the target unlike most other assault rifles with three round burst that put the first round in the knee, the second in the head and the third 2m above the head off into the wild blue yonder.

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:56 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:Legendary Kalashnikov assault rifle: History and prospects

    RIA Novosti

    21:2926/05/2010 MOSCOW. (Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military commentator) - The Russian armed forces will continue using firearms based on the assault rifle Mikhail Kalashnikov designed in 1947. Vladimir Gorodetsky, director of the Urals-based Izhevsk Mechanical Plant (Izhmash), which produces the legendary assault rifles, told this to the media on May 25.

    Next year, the Defense Ministry will start testing a new model of Kalashnikov, the AK-200. The new model is lighter than its predecessor and has a more ergonomic design. However, the total weight of the device will be 3.8 kg (up from 3.3 kg), due to additional equipment, including a scope sight and a target-marking laser.

    Do these improvements meet the current needs of the Russian army, or modern fighting practices more broadly? To answer this question, one needs to study complaints made about the most widely used and distributed military firearm in history.

    1. Lower precision in single shot fire compared to similar Western models and noticeable climb in fully automatic fire, especially with the 7.62 mm version.

    2. Difficulty in installing modern scope sights.

    3. Non-ergonomic handle.

    4. Obsolete open-barrel sight.

    Most of the precision problems in basic AK models have been resolved by improving the quality of mass-produced rifles and ammunition, analysts say. Sometimes there can be a great difference between different Kalashnikovs of the same model but made by different producers in different countries because of production quality, components and ammunition.

    As for the climb and recoil problems, they stem from details in the design itself; correcting those would require structural improvements, at least as significant as in the AK 107/108 versions, where the recoil is weaker due to its more balanced automatic mechanism. Such changes would eventually require designers to generate a whole new design concept for the firearm, which is impossible in the current economic situation.

    Another option would be to use new recoil control devices (compensators).

    The difficulty of installing scopes is due to the receiver cover's design: optical sights cannot be attached to it. The sights, fitted with a Picatinny attachment, would need to be adjusted whenever the cover is lifted or replaced.

    Until recently, the sights were fitted to Kalashnikovs using a bracket on the left side of the receiver, significantly limiting the range of sights that could be used. The Picatinny gas tube attachment was introduced for the AK-200 series to solve this problem and the receiver cover was also improved. It is hinged to the receiver at the front and flips up, increasing its overall rigidity. Picatinny rails compatible with a range of optical and collimator sights can be installed on the rigid receiver.

    Many professionals recognize the Kalashnikov's original open barrel sight as obsolete. Other experts argue that it is quite effective in open combat and only requires minor improvements.

    Overall, the AK-200 series is a significant upgrade of the basic rifle, and the improvements made have not required a dramatic upgrade in production lines.

    Russia's Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service are already buying small batches of new series firearms. Commercial production has to wait until the Defense Ministry's tests are complete. If the AK-200 goes into production, it would mean Russia joining the international trend towards improving existing models rather than re-inventing "the firearms of tomorrow," which saw only limited progress. Basic models can be upgraded by ergonomic design and added cutting-edge equipment.

    Russia is in a better position than other countries as it escaped all those "firearms of tomorrow" projects thanks to events of the past 20 years.

    The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100526-rianovosti04.htm


    I wouldn't think RIAN is full of it, just because you have a different opinion with them. Besides, just because the previous model had it doesn't mean the current ones will.

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:16 am

    The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.


    Normally I agree with this reporters views, but in this case I think the Russian military will want rather more than a warmed over AK otherwise the AEK rival might pip them at the post.

    Remember the emphasis on hit probability that led to the AN-94 beating the Kalashnikov rivals?

    I am sure Kalashnikov has.

    Adding a scope and laser pointer as standard to every rifle doesn't seem to me to be going for cheap and simple, so an upgrade like a balanced recoil system which no other in service rifle has AFAIK might be what makes or breaks this new weapon.
    The SA80 had an optic sight as standard in the late 1980s so this isn't really new.
    Of course using optic sights makes training easier, though back up Iron sights could simply be built in to the rail to fold down when not needed.

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:48 am

    Actually I have been thinking... no really, and what I was thinking was that if they did adopt the balanced recoil system as shown on the page I linked to above for the AK-107/108 then with the piston rod mechanically linked to the bolt... if you wanted to, you could remove the recoil spring from behind the bolt carrier and put it on both pistons instead. This could mean a much shorter recoil stroke and therefore a much shorter receiver, which should rather significantly reduce the length of the rifle and reduce weight without reducing barrel length.

    In fact if you changed things around and used a bullpup layout you could really seriously shorten the rifle design while actually making the barrel a little longer.

    Just thinking out loud.

    I reckon I should be charging the Russian MIC for all my ideas...

    Smile attack

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:49 pm

    Not every new Kalashnikov is going to be a break through, with Picitanny rails, this allows Russian weaponary to be able to hold a larger variety of Optics and tacticool equipment. 60 round magazine is fine too. Balanced recoil although nice would still be expensive to "add-on".

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:32 am

    Balanced recoil although nice would still be expensive to "add-on".


    I understand people thinking that but in my opinion without the balanced recoil system this isn't an AK-200, it is just an AK-74M2.

    It wouldn't be that hard to take the plastic furniture and top cover off an AK-74M and replace those components with new components with picatinny rails fitted and fold down iron sights to them and remove the original rear and front Iron sights.
    Add a 60 shot mag and all of a sudden you have an AK-200?

    It is not enough to warrant the change... it would make rather more sense just to replace those 3 things (ie upper and lower front plastic grips and top cover) and replace them with models fitted with piccatinny rails... I bought a top cover with a rail mount on top and black plastic grips (without rails but I could just as easily bought some with rails on all sides of them too) for my Chinese AK and I can say it makes it easier to fit a scope, but I wouldn't consider it a new rifle because of it.

    Quite frankly if there is no balanced recoil mechanism the real question becomes why would it take so long to get it into service?

    What is the point of the testing it will be going through this year?

    The only two things that really need testing is the 60 round mag and a balanced recoil mechanism.

    Without a balanced recoil system why not just put it directly into service?

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:02 am

    It's still new, still got testing procedures.

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  Hoof on Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:33 pm

    I wonder, how practical is 60 round mag ? 30 rounds of 5.45x39 is already pretty heavy... but 60 ! how big is the mag physically and what shape does it have?

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    Re: Russia to test new model of Kalashnikov assault rifle in 2011!

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:16 pm

    According to this picture, it looks like any regular banana mag, but to me, it does look a tad elongated and fatter.




    In fact, here's a nice visual comparison (60 round casket mag in middle and "standard" mags on the top left of it.)




    Weight wise, a loaded AK-200 (presumably with the 60 round mag) is reported to weigh 3.8 kg, which is actually 0.2 kg lighter than a loaded M16. Practicality wise, there is some talk that the 60 round casket mag is actually not as reliable as regular mags, so, we'll see.

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