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    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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    GarryB
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:52 am

    This is the Vityaz vehicle chassis I was referring to:





    Both tractor and trailer unit have engines and the connection between then has hydraulics to allow the front section to actually raise the rear section or vice versa.

    As both sections float it means that when in the water the connection can be used to lift the front up onto floating ice and once up the front can then assist the rears section up onto the ice as well so it can get out of water much better than most other amphibious vehicles.

    As you can also see the rear trailer section is quite tall and would allow lots of vertical launch pallets for a relatively small missile like Morfei or TOR to be carried in the vertical position ready for launch.

    In comparison the original TOR vehicle crammed 8 missiles in the turret ring of the vehicle, which was two four missile bins.

    On the Vityaz you could probably get 10 or more 4 missile bins on the trailer which offers excellent capacity to defend against attempts to overwhelm the defence with numbers.

    The missiles of TOR are command guided, while Morfei are lock on after launch IIR guided, so having all the missiles on the vehicle ready to launch is an advantage.

    The front vehicle could carry a roof mounted four face AESA array for continuous 360 degree scanning with no moving antenna but with and EO ball on top to ID targets. Electronic scanning is much faster and more efficient than mechanical scanning of radar antenna.

    Unifying the launcher with TOR and Morfei means that a mix of missiles could be used as TOR is still very effective and cheap, while Morfei will be even more capable and fully fire and forget, though more expensive. Morfei will have air force air launched equivelent (new AAM to replace the R-73/R-74) and a naval version so it will be an inter service missile.
    TOR may continue to be used by the Navy and Army as a cheap but still effective system for air defence.

    The four face AESA antenna will offer very rapid initial detection of targets capability, while the EO ball will enable the operator to positively ID a target especially in peacetime, and can also be used against targets with low RCS.

    As I mentioned above a decent wireless datalink connection between launcher and front vehicle could allow one control vehicle to launch missiles from several trailers at once.

    For instance if defending a really large area target like an airfield that could be 4-5km long and 2-3km wide 4-5 trailers could be positioned at each end of the runway with a mobile command vehicle scanning the skies for threats.
    The command vehicle even at one end of the runway spotting a target coming from the opposite end of the runway could launch missiles from the trailer closest to the incoming threat, which might reduce intercept time by several seconds.

    medo
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:29 pm

    I agree, that Vityaz is very interesting vehicle and would be very suitable for AD systems for arctic units. It could be built in two ways:
    - One way with radar and FSC components in the first part and missile launchers in the second part, what means it could carry larger number of missiles like 32 or even more.
    - Second way is with classical tor configuration in the first part of vehicle and with crew compartment in the second part. For 24 hours working Tor need three crews, what mean one crew is on duty, while the rest are in the second compartment with food, water, heating and place to rest, what would be very welcome for cold arctic environment. As I know Russian AD have vehicles for resting crew comfort based on MAZ 8x8.

    You are correct, a lot of options could be placed on Vityaz vehicle. Do you maybe know if Vityaz vehicle is armored or unarmored?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:11 am

    Probably not armoured.

    The vehicle itself is designed for harsh climates (ie deep snow or mud) and poor roads, so it would likely operate in places where wheeled vehicles operate.

    Perhaps a wheeled equivalent vehicle with two sections could be developed for places where the roads are better and the climate not so harsh.

    I would envisage with the mobility of the command (front) vehicle that it could be centrally located with the missile trailers located around the base being defended, so when the end of a shift comes you could drive the command vehicle to accommodation facilities and swap crews and drive back to the location with the best radar and optical view of the surrounds... which will likely be on raised ground like a small hill.

    The trailers could even be hidden amongst boxes or otherwise camouflaged so they are not obvious to the enemy.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:34 pm

    Vityaz is excellent for harsh arctic climates with its two sections (vehicles). If I would have to use Tor or any other system placed on Vityaz in arctic region, than for sure I would more like to see, that Tor complex is installed in first section or vehicle, while the second sections accommodate reserve crews with water, food, fuel, heating and place to rest. If you have stored supplies for let say a week, this could mean a lot in arctic conditions. What ever happened in battles and if you suddenly are alone somewhere in Arctic region, you have large distance to the first base or populated place, so if you have supplies for few days and warm place to rest, you have better chances to survive and later continue with fighting. This is just my opinion, I'm not an expert for polar warfare.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:37 pm

    The problem with your logic is that this vehicle would never be sent out on its own into the middle of nowhere.

    Being an air defence vehicle it would be protecting something, whether that was an airfield or secret radar station, or ICBM field or whatever.

    Supplies and other goodies would be stored on the base where they were located and considering they had a few TOR based Vityaz vehicles then it would make sense to have a few standard vehicles, because of the automotive commonality of engines and parts etc.

    If you found you had to survive or get out of there then the standard vehicle would be a much better choice.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:39 pm

    For defending bases or installations, standard version of AD systems would bu just OK, we are talking about systems mounted on Vityaz vehicles. They are more suitable to escort units, which operate in arctic region outside bases. It is true, they will not be sent alone in the middle of arctic, but with a ground unit to defend it. Teoreticaly, there could be war for arctic natural resources, so the enemy will not be some guerrilla but equally or better armed regular army. Battles could be hundreds of miles out of bases and in battles could happened everything, but anyway you have to account on heavy losses. Maybe your unit is destroyed or you win, but with heavy losses or you have to retreat. There is a lot of option, that you find yourself in the middle of ice and snow as in desert in the middle of sand. In that case it is fine to have your own supplies, because units supplies could be destroyed and you have to survive few days until you reach your own bases.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:49 pm

    Boeing Tested Microwave Rocket shows Tor-M2 as potential target.

    http://lenta.ru/news/2011/09/26/champ/



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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:34 am

    The original article in English
    http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1933

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:11 am

    Sorry for misleading you Medo, my choice of the Vityaz was not its ability to climb up on icebergs or operate in harsh backwater places...

    My main interest was the large volume of space in the rear trailer that would allow far more missiles to be carried in vertical launch positions than is possible within the restricted space of the turret on the current vehicle used by TOR on the tracked and wheeled versions.

    Part of the idea behind it is for the front part to operate with multiple trailers located around the target being defended to allow for some surprise as the enemy will no doubt locate the radars of the command vehicle, but locating the missiles might be more difficult.

    Equally having several command vehicles able to fire any or all of the missiles means that with one command vehicle operating the enemy might try to engage it but other command vehicles with passive sensors operating only could use missiles to target the attacking forces by surprise.

    Indeed an enemy attack helo that has flown in low to attack an airfield might detect the radar emissions near the tower of the command post and as it launches a missile that command post might initiate a missile launch from a launcher behind the helo to engage the helo plus another missile in front of the helo to engage the Hellfire the helo just fired.

    Boeing Tested Microwave Rocket shows Tor-M2 as potential target.

    Those EMP warheads are politically correct weapons that are supposed to reduce damage and deaths. They are the creation of a moral west that likes to use war as an instrument of "justice" but at the same time trying to ban all sorts of weapons on moral grounds.

    These things often have comparable ranges of effectiveness as HE, so in this case the diagram is a little silly. The TOR system could engage such missiles before they get anywhere near the TOR launch platform so each of these EMP missiles will either be engaged by missiles heading for the launch platform or they can use up their EMP warheads defeating the missile that was going to shoot them down... meaning they have no payload for the launching vehicle.
    TOR missiles are very simple command control missiles... EMP warheads would have a very hard time disabling them. EMP pulses on the other hand would be ideal for defeating Javelin and Spike missiles.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:43 pm

    I think I understand your idea for Vityaz vehicle. In my opinion for defending bases, they don't need Vityaz to get more missiles ready to fire. They could place Tor on normal truck and place additional missiles on truck trailer, which could be connected with main vehicle with FCS with additional cable. For driving around base this configuration could not represent any problem and is much cheaper than Vityaz vehicle. Vityaz vehicle is expensive and will not be built in very large numbers, so it would be better, that they serve in places for which they were created. Tor or Pantsir placed on Vityaz is excellent idea, but let they serve in arctic units.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:16 am

    Now you are getting it... I picked Vityaz because I knew it was available, but certainly a wheeled truck based system with a wheeled trailer would also do the job and be much cheaper to buy and operate.

    By picking a standard truck design it also has the result that during an attack a threat might just mistake a missile battery for a group of truck trailers parked in a carpark...

    Obviously the AESA array on the truck might give it away but that AESA array should detect aerial targets long before they get within optical range so it is really only trying to fool optical satellites.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:06 pm

    I hardly wait to see Morphei prototype, I think it will be build with this concept in mind.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:22 am

    Well actually I remember Andy posting a photo of a ball with IR elements all over it that reminded me of the IR sensor fitted to Russian bombers and strike aircraft that was used to detect IR threats.

    It in many ways would act like a 5 faced AESA radar (with a radar panel looking up) except it would detect IR rather that scan with radar. This makes a lot of sense of course as the Morfei is an IR guided missile so if its sensor can't detect a target then Morfei wouldn't get a lock anyway.
    The Morfei on the other hand is supposed to be a lock on after launch missile, but I have read that the ground launched model will only have a range of 5km so a 360 degree IR sensor is probably all it would need... and be totally passive and all weather to boot.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:45 pm

    We will see what actual Morphei prototype will have installed. But that kind of 360° IR sensor could be excellent back up for battery command posts for Tors, Pantsirs and other SHORADs, when they want to work in radar silence or radar is jammed.

    Is Phoenix IR sensor for Strelets developed further or it is abandoned? It was interesting start in this way.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:46 am

    But that kind of 360° IR sensor could be excellent back up for battery command posts for Tors, Pantsirs and other SHORADs, when they want to work in radar silence or radar is jammed.

    Indeed, and they are very common on aircraft as part of the ESM suite too.

    Is Phoenix IR sensor for Strelets developed further or it is abandoned? It was interesting start in this way.

    AFAIK the Phoenix turret... normally mounted on a Vodnik chassis could be fitted to other platforms.
    Considering they have IR guided missiles a 360 degree IR sensor makes sense to me, but SA-9 and SA-13 were most often seen with electronic boxes for detecting terrain following radar and radio altimeters used on low flying aircraft and low flying cruise missiles, which is just as passive. Unless it was ridiculously expensive I would fit both.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:40 am

    AFAIK the Phoenix turret... normally mounted on a Vodnik chassis could be fitted to other platforms.
    Considering they have IR guided missiles a 360 degree IR sensor makes sense to me, but SA-9 and SA-13 were most often seen with electronic boxes for detecting terrain following radar and radio altimeters used on low flying aircraft and low flying cruise missiles, which is just as passive. Unless it was ridiculously expensive I would fit both.

    I didn't have in mind whole turret, only 360° IR sensor, which was seen only in this Strelets prototype mounted on Vodnik vehicle. This sensor doesn't need to be places on every SA-13, it could be placed only on battery command posts. The point is, if the system is working and is effective, why not developed it further and use it on your systems?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:59 pm

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/10/blog-post_3553.html

    Article in Gur Khan blog about modernization program for ground forces air defense, looks like Tor-M2 will be quite important part of it. I hope industry will be able to fulfill this program and that there will be enough new young people, who will decide for carrier in air defense.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:45 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/12/15/torm2/

    Russia deliver first Tor-M2s to Belarus. I hope Russian MoD also receive some at least for PVO schools to train crews.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:09 pm

    http://redstar.ru/2011/12/24_12/1_01.html

    In this interview commander of ground forces air defense general-major Aleksandr Leonov said, that army units in this year received first Tor-M2U. I hope there will soon be pictures of them or maybe not, as they still didn't show any picture of Krizanthema-S in army units.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:29 pm

    I have been reading a bit about the structure of these new brigades, and have read that there is a significant amount of obsolete equipment still in service... the OSA is still widely deployed as an example, though it might be a case of using those because they are cheap and need to be used up.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:52 am

    I think Osa-AKM will be in use for some time, because they don't have enough Tors to replace them ( have to buy few hundreds Tors to replace them). On the other hand Osa is still effective and with modernization they could get data link to integrate them with command centers like Polyana-D4M1 or Barnaul-T or other and to replace older TV camera with more modern EO system with thermal imager. With those modifications Osa will still be on the level of Crotale-NG and able to do the job in modern air defense.

    With enough Tor-M2U in the units, Osa will slowly be phased out.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:21 pm

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/11914/

    In South military district army get first Tor-M2U systems in Volgograd oblast. They plan that in 2012 Tor-M2U will replace all old Osas in South military district.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:24 pm

    That is very interesting.

    Do you think that might be a reaction to Georgias attempts at joining NATO?

    The Chechen terrorists certainly do not present an air threat that would warrant such a move, and in the past it has been mentioned that they want to build up the Far East forces, so what is so special about the South... other than Georgia and the ongoing animosity over SO and Abkhazia?

    Will be interesting to see if the OSAs are scrapped or cascaded to lower readiness units, or made available to existing users for export.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:03 pm

    The Caucasus is indeed getting very much attention lately. Also noteworthy are the re-equipment of the Caspian and Black Sea Fleets and the deployment of the first squadron of Su-34s in Baltimore-Voronezh (within striking distance of the Caucasus/turkey/Iran).
    It is not only Georgia/Abkhazia/S.Ossetia. You have the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict, the potential Western/Israeli attack on Iran. Take it from there to the hotspots in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    A powder keg situation, I am afraid.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:20 am

    New anti-aircraft missile systems Tor-M2U supplied to Southern Military District

    MOSCOW, December 27 (Itar-Tass) —— The Southern Military District is receiving newest anti-aircraft missile systems Tor-M2U, district spokesman Oleg Kochetkov told Itar-Tass on Tuesday.

    “The delivery of Tor-M2U anti-aircraft missile systems has begun to air defense units in the Volgograd region. The systems will replace outdated Osa. The replacement will be complete in 2012,” Kochetkov said.

    Modern automated control systems, Kasatelnaya, Polyana-D4 and Barnaul-T, were supplied in 2011. “At present our district is equipped with modern anti-aircraft missile systems and automated control systems at over 40%,” he said.

    Tor-M2U is designed to deter air attacks, including those of high-precision weapons. It carries twelve guided missiles capable of intercepting targets, which fly at up to 700 meters per second on the range of up to twelve kilometers and the altitude of up to 6,000 meters. The system is capable of detecting and identifying of up to 48 targets and simultaneous locking of four targets.


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