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    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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    George1
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:37 am

    "Tor-M2U" "taught" to reflect airstrikes on the move, without making stops


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:50 pm

    Russia Deploys Advanced Air Defense Tor-M2U to Guard Kuril Islands



    The Kuril Islands in Russia's Sakhalin Region form a volcanic archipelago that stretches approximately 1,300 km northeast from Hokkaido, Japan, to Kamchatka, Russia, separating the Sea of Okhotsk from the North Pacific Ocean.

    On Wednesday, Russia’s Armed Forces stepped up their combat in the area using the latest anti-missile system ‘Tor-M2U’ in the Kuril Islands, Rossiyskaya Gazeta reported.

    Prior to this, for the past six months the soldiers and officers used the air defense system in experimental mode.

    The Russian General Staff chose this particular weapon to protect the far eastern borders of Russia due to its combat capabilities. The Tor-M2U refers to a new generation of short-range air defense systems. Its main task is to cover the most important military and government facilities from attack from aircraft, helicopters, cruise missiles and enemy drones.

    Each air defense missile system carries eight missiles which are launched vertically. It provides reliable protection against air targets flying at speeds of up to 700 meters per second. It is not only able to detect and identify 48 targets in the sky, but can also automatically determine which of them is the most dangerous.

    Once the ‘identification’ is completed, the defense system can simultaneously fire four missiles at the enemy targets. The firing range of the Tor M2U measures from 500 meters to 12 kilometers and the height is from 10 meters to 6 kilometers.

    In other words, if a foreign fighter jet, helicopter, small-sized drone or even a reconnaissance balloon comes anywhere near the Kuril Islands it will not go unnoticed. The anti-missile system will ‘see’ the enemy targets in any weather conditions day or night.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150924/1027469736/russia-kurile-islands-air-defense-missile-system.html#ixzz3mhA3wZuY


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:52 pm

    "Russia has successfully conducted live fire tests of its advanced Tor-M2U surface-to-air missile system. What made the test so special is that the missiles were fired on the move!

    The Tor-M2U system was designed by the Almaz-Antei Concern to engage planes, helicopters, cruise missiles, precision guided munitions, unmanned aerial vehicles and short-range ballistic threats.
    Tor was also the first air defense system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons day and night, in bad weather and jamming situations.
    What the system could not do was to fire on the move. The trials were conducted at Kapustin Yar range in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region. Moving at 25 km/h over rought terrain the Tor-M2U managed to spot and destroy the target maneuvering eight kilometers away. According to Almaz-Antei deputy chief designer Pavel Sozinov, the successful test was putting the Tor–M2U on a qualitatively new technological level making it possible to engage aerial targets from a moving position."



    Source: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150926/1027583140/russia-missiles-test.html#ixzz3mrPPlLk4


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:12 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:I don't remember where I got this picture from. It shows a Tor-M2U (Тор-М2У) launcher firing a missile from the 9M338 family.

    It is interesting that the launcher covers open in a direction perpendicular to those of the Tor-M1 launchers. It seems the launchers shown during the practice runs for the victory day parade are just Tor-M2 launchers, and similarly those that were at Sochi.

    By the way, 10 different new missile types have already been publicized as destined for the Tor-M2U. They are 9М338, 9М338ГН, 9М338Д, 9М338К, 9М338КУД, 9М339, 9М339УД, 9М339К, 9М339КУ, and РЗВ-МД (export model of 9М338К). Many more to be made public in the future.


    So it now seems that the above variant and the ones posted here are variants of Tor beyond that of Tor-M2U.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:55 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:I don't remember where I got this picture from. It shows a Tor-M2U (Тор-М2У) launcher firing a missile from the 9M338 family.

    It is interesting that the launcher covers open in a direction perpendicular to those of the Tor-M1 launchers. It seems the launchers shown during the practice runs for the victory day parade are just Tor-M2 launchers, and similarly those that were at Sochi.

    By the way, 10 different new missile types have already been publicized as destined for the Tor-M2U. They are 9М338, 9М338ГН, 9М338Д, 9М338К, 9М338КУД, 9М339, 9М339УД, 9М339К, 9М339КУ, and РЗВ-МД (export model of 9М338К). Many more to be made public in the future.


    So it now seems that the above variant and the ones posted here are variants of Tor beyond that of Tor-M2U.

    Morpheus, what is the intercept probability of TOR when it is firing on the move?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:55 am

    jhelb wrote:Morpheus, what is the intercept probability of TOR when it is firing on the move?

    jhelb,

    Considering the various characteristics of Tor, there shouldn't be any measurable difference in its probability of intercept between its firing from stationary and on the move. However, with respect to giving a figure for the probability of intercept, I can't recall of any for the Tor-M2 system and systems beyond that.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:04 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:I don't remember where I got this picture from. It shows a Tor-M2U (Тор-М2У) launcher firing a missile from the 9M338 family.

    It is interesting that the launcher covers open in a direction perpendicular to those of the Tor-M1 launchers. It seems the launchers shown during the practice runs for the victory day parade are just Tor-M2 launchers, and similarly those that were at Sochi.

    By the way, 10 different new missile types have already been publicized as destined for the Tor-M2U. They are 9М338, 9М338ГН, 9М338Д, 9М338К, 9М338КУД, 9М339, 9М339УД, 9М339К, 9М339КУ, and РЗВ-МД (export model of 9М338К). Many more to be made public in the future.


    So it now seems that the above variant and the ones posted here are variants of Tor beyond that of Tor-M2U.

    Morpheus, what is the intercept probability of TOR when it is firing on the move?

    No difference really. Things that made various older systems incapable of firing on the move were vehicles that couldnt handle it properly, cables that had to be layed between modules, bulky missiles, some systems couldnt even move with missiles in "ready" position, had very little to do with precision or intercept probability.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Rmf on Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:34 pm

    on the move... and some other sams were practiced
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDDGurUoFI

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:56 pm

    Rmf wrote:on the move... and some other sams were practiced
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDDGurUoFI

    Awesome. Now waiting to see if the Buk-M3 can pull off the same feat..

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:31 pm

    Thanks Morpheus & Militarov

    Militarov wrote:
    No difference really. Things that made various older systems incapable of firing on the move were vehicles that couldnt handle it properly, cables that had to be layed between modules, bulky missiles, some systems couldnt even move with missiles in "ready" position, had very little to do with precision or intercept probability.

    So why are 10 different missiles destined for Tor? It just can't be about the range,right?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:01 pm

    jhelb wrote:Thanks Morpheus & Militarov

    Militarov wrote:
    No difference really. Things that made various older systems incapable of firing on the move were vehicles that couldnt handle it properly, cables that had to be layed between modules, bulky missiles, some systems couldnt even move with missiles in "ready" position, had very little to do with precision or intercept probability.

    So why are 10 different missiles destined for Tor? It just can't be about the range,right?

    Newer missiles are smaller, propelants technology got better, naturally older missiles that are still in service wont be just thrown away, they will be used till their storage time ends. 9M331, 9M338, 9M338GN, 9M338D, 9M338K, 9M338KUD, 9M339, 9M339D, 9M339KU, 9M339UD, and P3B-MD. Some are "old", some are "new", some are export variants... naturally though time they increased their speed, agility, hit probability, did changes on warhead to deal better with UAVs, PGMs...

    "As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Rmf on Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:58 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Rmf wrote:on the move... and some other sams were practiced
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDDGurUoFI

    Awesome. Now waiting to see if the Buk-M3 can pull off the same feat..
    why dont they install active suspension systems ,its far from combat ,with hydraulic shock absorbers`for smooth ride , that would make it much better.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:48 pm

    Militarov wrote:"Russia has successfully conducted live fire tests of its advanced Tor-M2U surface-to-air missile system. What made the test so special is that the missiles were fired on the move!

    The Tor-M2U system was designed by the Almaz-Antei Concern to engage planes, helicopters, cruise missiles, precision guided munitions, unmanned aerial vehicles and short-range ballistic threats.
    Tor was also the first air defense system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons  day and night, in bad weather and jamming situations.
    What the system could not do was to fire on the move. The trials were conducted at Kapustin Yar range in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region. Moving at 25 km/h over rought terrain the Tor-M2U managed to spot and destroy the target maneuvering eight kilometers away. According to Almaz-Antei deputy chief designer Pavel Sozinov, the successful test  was putting the Tor–M2U on a qualitatively new technological level making it possible to engage aerial targets from a moving position."



    Source: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150926/1027583140/russia-missiles-test.html#ixzz3mrPPlLk4


    This is a bit off subject, but I just realized how ironic that the 'Tor' series of SHORAD's main competitor (Pantsir) is nick-named "Carapace" when the Tor series resembles a Tortoise more so than Pantsir does lol! Hell you can't spell "Tortoise" without "Tor" lol!

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:59 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"Russia has successfully conducted live fire tests of its advanced Tor-M2U surface-to-air missile system. What made the test so special is that the missiles were fired on the move!

    The Tor-M2U system was designed by the Almaz-Antei Concern to engage planes, helicopters, cruise missiles, precision guided munitions, unmanned aerial vehicles and short-range ballistic threats.
    Tor was also the first air defense system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons  day and night, in bad weather and jamming situations.
    What the system could not do was to fire on the move. The trials were conducted at Kapustin Yar range in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region. Moving at 25 km/h over rought terrain the Tor-M2U managed to spot and destroy the target maneuvering eight kilometers away. According to Almaz-Antei deputy chief designer Pavel Sozinov, the successful test  was putting the Tor–M2U on a qualitatively new technological level making it possible to engage aerial targets from a moving position."



    Source: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150926/1027583140/russia-missiles-test.html#ixzz3mrPPlLk4


    This is a bit off subject, but I just realized how ironic that the 'Tor' series of SHORAD's main competitor (Pantsir) is nick-named "Carapace" when the Tor series resembles a Tortoise more so than Pantsir does lol! Hell you can't spell "Tortoise" without "Tor" lol!

    Tor = Thor
    Pantsir = Carapace

    Quite different names.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:02 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"Russia has successfully conducted live fire tests of its advanced Tor-M2U surface-to-air missile system. What made the test so special is that the missiles were fired on the move!

    The Tor-M2U system was designed by the Almaz-Antei Concern to engage planes, helicopters, cruise missiles, precision guided munitions, unmanned aerial vehicles and short-range ballistic threats.
    Tor was also the first air defense system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons  day and night, in bad weather and jamming situations.
    What the system could not do was to fire on the move. The trials were conducted at Kapustin Yar range in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region. Moving at 25 km/h over rought terrain the Tor-M2U managed to spot and destroy the target maneuvering eight kilometers away. According to Almaz-Antei deputy chief designer Pavel Sozinov, the successful test  was putting the Tor–M2U on a qualitatively new technological level making it possible to engage aerial targets from a moving position."



    Source: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150926/1027583140/russia-missiles-test.html#ixzz3mrPPlLk4


    This is a bit off subject, but I just realized how ironic that the 'Tor' series of SHORAD's main competitor (Pantsir) is nick-named "Carapace" when the Tor series resembles a Tortoise more so than Pantsir does lol! Hell you can't spell "Tortoise" without "Tor" lol!

    Tor = Thor
    Pantsir = Carapace

    Quite different names.

    Yes I'm well aware of that, and I'm just pointing out that Tor's physical resemblance looks more like a turtle than their main competitor.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:23 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.

    We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:29 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.

    This refers to 9K330 TLAR which was not capable of launching missiles while on the move.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:38 pm

    Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:51 pm

    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:22 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?

    It can fire missiles on the move, however if on truck chasis (as they all basically are) they cant fire their cannons on the move. Tracked variant can use both cannons and missiles while on the move.



    13+ seconds into video.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:39 am

    Militarov wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?

    It can fire missiles on the move, however if on truck chasis (as they all basically are) they cant fire their cannons on the move. Tracked variant can use both cannons and missiles while on the move.



    13+ seconds into video.

    Ah excellent, yes now I definitely remember reading about how the wheeled version couldn't use its cannons on the move (but could use its missiles). I knew it had those hydraulic clamps for something.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:56 am

    Werewolf wrote:We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.

    Yes,what I was discussing was the intercept probability on the move. Does it decrease when the Tor is on the move.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:04 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.

    Yes,what I was discussing was the intercept probability on the move. Does it decrease when the Tor is on the move.

    Can't know for sure but it definetley will not increase when on the move. I would assume that it does decrease when fired on the move but question is how big is the difference based on guidance it shouldn't be big of a deal in difference.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:48 am

    One of the problems that prevents missiles being fired on the move is that if the vehicle hits a bump as the missile is being launched the missile can be forced against one side or the other of the launch tube perhaps damaging or shearing off control or stabilisation surfaces.

    Obviously in the later models that can fire on the move stabilisation of the missile tubes is likely improved but also the design of the missile and tube interface will have been adapted to prevent damage despite any movements during missile launch.

    In terms of guidance accuracy degradation while moving... as you can imagine that if you are moving you still have to keep track of both the outgoing missile and the incoming threat target... if the sensor you are using is vibrating or moving its accuracy in measuring the precise location of the missile or the target will be effected in a negative way.

    Accuracy with radar sensors might not even be effected... remember the radar centre of a target might not even be a part of the target so an error in any direction wont make a huge difference to lethality as long as the proximity fuse works properly.

    With modern autotrackers taking inaccurate target tracking out of the equation then performance should be very good...

    I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...


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