Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Share
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5557
    Points : 5598
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:01 pm

    jhelb wrote:Thanks Morpheus & Militarov

    Militarov wrote:
    No difference really. Things that made various older systems incapable of firing on the move were vehicles that couldnt handle it properly, cables that had to be layed between modules, bulky missiles, some systems couldnt even move with missiles in "ready" position, had very little to do with precision or intercept probability.

    So why are 10 different missiles destined for Tor? It just can't be about the range,right?

    Newer missiles are smaller, propelants technology got better, naturally older missiles that are still in service wont be just thrown away, they will be used till their storage time ends. 9M331, 9M338, 9M338GN, 9M338D, 9M338K, 9M338KUD, 9M339, 9M339D, 9M339KU, 9M339UD, and P3B-MD. Some are "old", some are "new", some are export variants... naturally though time they increased their speed, agility, hit probability, did changes on warhead to deal better with UAVs, PGMs...

    "As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "
    avatar
    Rmf

    Posts : 506
    Points : 493
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Rmf on Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:58 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Rmf wrote:on the move... and some other sams were practiced
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDDGurUoFI

    Awesome. Now waiting to see if the Buk-M3 can pull off the same feat..
    why dont they install active suspension systems ,its far from combat ,with hydraulic shock absorbers`for smooth ride , that would make it much better.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4488
    Points : 4661
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:48 pm

    Militarov wrote:"Russia has successfully conducted live fire tests of its advanced Tor-M2U surface-to-air missile system. What made the test so special is that the missiles were fired on the move!

    The Tor-M2U system was designed by the Almaz-Antei Concern to engage planes, helicopters, cruise missiles, precision guided munitions, unmanned aerial vehicles and short-range ballistic threats.
    Tor was also the first air defense system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons  day and night, in bad weather and jamming situations.
    What the system could not do was to fire on the move. The trials were conducted at Kapustin Yar range in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region. Moving at 25 km/h over rought terrain the Tor-M2U managed to spot and destroy the target maneuvering eight kilometers away. According to Almaz-Antei deputy chief designer Pavel Sozinov, the successful test  was putting the Tor–M2U on a qualitatively new technological level making it possible to engage aerial targets from a moving position."



    Source: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150926/1027583140/russia-missiles-test.html#ixzz3mrPPlLk4


    This is a bit off subject, but I just realized how ironic that the 'Tor' series of SHORAD's main competitor (Pantsir) is nick-named "Carapace" when the Tor series resembles a Tortoise more so than Pantsir does lol! Hell you can't spell "Tortoise" without "Tor" lol!
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3261
    Points : 3367
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:59 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"Russia has successfully conducted live fire tests of its advanced Tor-M2U surface-to-air missile system. What made the test so special is that the missiles were fired on the move!

    The Tor-M2U system was designed by the Almaz-Antei Concern to engage planes, helicopters, cruise missiles, precision guided munitions, unmanned aerial vehicles and short-range ballistic threats.
    Tor was also the first air defense system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons  day and night, in bad weather and jamming situations.
    What the system could not do was to fire on the move. The trials were conducted at Kapustin Yar range in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region. Moving at 25 km/h over rought terrain the Tor-M2U managed to spot and destroy the target maneuvering eight kilometers away. According to Almaz-Antei deputy chief designer Pavel Sozinov, the successful test  was putting the Tor–M2U on a qualitatively new technological level making it possible to engage aerial targets from a moving position."



    Source: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150926/1027583140/russia-missiles-test.html#ixzz3mrPPlLk4


    This is a bit off subject, but I just realized how ironic that the 'Tor' series of SHORAD's main competitor (Pantsir) is nick-named "Carapace" when the Tor series resembles a Tortoise more so than Pantsir does lol! Hell you can't spell "Tortoise" without "Tor" lol!

    Tor = Thor
    Pantsir = Carapace

    Quite different names.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4488
    Points : 4661
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:02 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"Russia has successfully conducted live fire tests of its advanced Tor-M2U surface-to-air missile system. What made the test so special is that the missiles were fired on the move!

    The Tor-M2U system was designed by the Almaz-Antei Concern to engage planes, helicopters, cruise missiles, precision guided munitions, unmanned aerial vehicles and short-range ballistic threats.
    Tor was also the first air defense system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons  day and night, in bad weather and jamming situations.
    What the system could not do was to fire on the move. The trials were conducted at Kapustin Yar range in Russia’s southern Astrakhan region. Moving at 25 km/h over rought terrain the Tor-M2U managed to spot and destroy the target maneuvering eight kilometers away. According to Almaz-Antei deputy chief designer Pavel Sozinov, the successful test  was putting the Tor–M2U on a qualitatively new technological level making it possible to engage aerial targets from a moving position."



    Source: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150926/1027583140/russia-missiles-test.html#ixzz3mrPPlLk4


    This is a bit off subject, but I just realized how ironic that the 'Tor' series of SHORAD's main competitor (Pantsir) is nick-named "Carapace" when the Tor series resembles a Tortoise more so than Pantsir does lol! Hell you can't spell "Tortoise" without "Tor" lol!

    Tor = Thor
    Pantsir = Carapace

    Quite different names.

    Yes I'm well aware of that, and I'm just pointing out that Tor's physical resemblance looks more like a turtle than their main competitor.
    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 439
    Points : 508
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5359
    Points : 5590
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:23 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.

    We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5557
    Points : 5598
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:29 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.

    This refers to 9K330 TLAR which was not capable of launching missiles while on the move.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:38 pm

    Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3261
    Points : 3367
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:51 pm

    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5557
    Points : 5598
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:22 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?

    It can fire missiles on the move, however if on truck chasis (as they all basically are) they cant fire their cannons on the move. Tracked variant can use both cannons and missiles while on the move.



    13+ seconds into video.
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3261
    Points : 3367
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:39 am

    Militarov wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?

    It can fire missiles on the move, however if on truck chasis (as they all basically are) they cant fire their cannons on the move. Tracked variant can use both cannons and missiles while on the move.



    13+ seconds into video.

    Ah excellent, yes now I definitely remember reading about how the wheeled version couldn't use its cannons on the move (but could use its missiles). I knew it had those hydraulic clamps for something.
    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 439
    Points : 508
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:56 am

    Werewolf wrote:We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.

    Yes,what I was discussing was the intercept probability on the move. Does it decrease when the Tor is on the move.
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5359
    Points : 5590
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:04 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.

    Yes,what I was discussing was the intercept probability on the move. Does it decrease when the Tor is on the move.

    Can't know for sure but it definetley will not increase when on the move. I would assume that it does decrease when fired on the move but question is how big is the difference based on guidance it shouldn't be big of a deal in difference.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16741
    Points : 17349
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:48 am

    One of the problems that prevents missiles being fired on the move is that if the vehicle hits a bump as the missile is being launched the missile can be forced against one side or the other of the launch tube perhaps damaging or shearing off control or stabilisation surfaces.

    Obviously in the later models that can fire on the move stabilisation of the missile tubes is likely improved but also the design of the missile and tube interface will have been adapted to prevent damage despite any movements during missile launch.

    In terms of guidance accuracy degradation while moving... as you can imagine that if you are moving you still have to keep track of both the outgoing missile and the incoming threat target... if the sensor you are using is vibrating or moving its accuracy in measuring the precise location of the missile or the target will be effected in a negative way.

    Accuracy with radar sensors might not even be effected... remember the radar centre of a target might not even be a part of the target so an error in any direction wont make a huge difference to lethality as long as the proximity fuse works properly.

    With modern autotrackers taking inaccurate target tracking out of the equation then performance should be very good...

    I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10656
    Points : 11135
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:30 pm

    Servicemen of the Eastern MD air defence to start mastering Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes



    Servicemen of the Eastern MD separate tank formation air defence units, which are located in Buryatia, will start mastering Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes at the base of specialized air defence center in Yeysk (Krasnodar Krai).

    In the course of the training course, the servicemen will practice loading of the launching systems, searching and detecting of aerial targets. The crews will perform first firing at the Kapustin Yar air defence training center in the second half of 2016.

    After retraining course, AD unit personnel will return to the permanent location with the new hardware.

    Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes are to replace Osa-AK systems this year.

    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12075436@egNews


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10656
    Points : 11135
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:11 pm

    Russia developing Arctic version of Tor missile system

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/860114


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:07 pm



    Here we could see for the first time serial Tor-M2 with new EO complex with additional thermal imager instead of old TV camera.
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5359
    Points : 5590
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:10 pm

    medo wrote:

    Here we could see for the first time serial Tor-M2 with new EO complex with additional thermal imager instead of old TV camera.

    I thought it always had a Thermal imager. There were some pictures from the Okotnik Image Processor that were taken from several plattforms, all in TV and IR channel and IIRC Tor was one of them. Have to check it this weekend tho.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:52 pm



    New Tor-M2 firing on targets in Buryatia.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:57 pm

    These new Tor-M2's, do they use the newer 9M338 missiles?
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3231
    Points : 3317
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:03 pm

    sepheronx wrote:These new Tor-M2's, do they use the newer 9M338 missiles?

    I don't know for the missiles, but visual difference between them and older variant is in optical sight, where newer version have different box with TV and thermal imager instead of old long TV camera.
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 37
    Location : Croatia

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:51 pm

    New TOR-M2 delivered thumbsup

    [url=In Buryatia connection BBO received anti-aircraft missile systems, "Tor-M2U"]http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160407/1404148850.html[/url]
    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 439
    Points : 508
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Mon May 09, 2016 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...

    Garry, am not sure if you have seen this video, I found it on a Russian forum that I visit frequently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85q22wIk1_w

    You will notice that the first 2 missiles fired by the TOR follows a zigzag path, however the missiles fired later follows a straight path.

    So can the missiles be programmed to follow a zigzag or straight path towards the target? Thanks.
    avatar
    Zivo

    Posts : 1491
    Points : 1521
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Zivo on Mon May 09, 2016 7:37 pm

    It only fires two missiles.

    I don't know exactly how Tor is programed, but the missile is guided to the predicted point of intercept by the launcher, and the path is updated as necessary. If I had to guess, due to the extreme angle present during the initial orientation phase of the flight, that the guidance system has to uses at least two separate homing algorithms. The zig-zag occurs when the algorithm switches over from the initial boost phase, to the en route/terminal phase.

    That is a very cool video. Good find.

    Sponsored content

    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:02 am