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    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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    jhelb

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:23 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.

    We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.
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    Militarov

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:29 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"As a fully mobile system, the Tor is capable of acquiring and tracking targets while the TLAR is moving. Due, however, to the interference with launch operations while on the move, missiles can be fired only when the system is in a stationary position. "

    I am unable to understand this because TOR calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink so missiles can be fired on the move.

    This refers to 9K330 TLAR which was not capable of launching missiles while on the move.
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    medo

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:38 pm

    Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:51 pm

    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?
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    Militarov

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:22 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?

    It can fire missiles on the move, however if on truck chasis (as they all basically are) they cant fire their cannons on the move. Tracked variant can use both cannons and missiles while on the move.



    13+ seconds into video.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:39 am

    Militarov wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    medo wrote:Tor-M2 now finally become equal to Pantsir in its capability to launch missiles on the move.

    How do you know the Pantsir can?

    It can fire missiles on the move, however if on truck chasis (as they all basically are) they cant fire their cannons on the move. Tracked variant can use both cannons and missiles while on the move.



    13+ seconds into video.

    Ah excellent, yes now I definitely remember reading about how the wheeled version couldn't use its cannons on the move (but could use its missiles). I knew it had those hydraulic clamps for something.
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    jhelb

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:56 am

    Werewolf wrote:We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.

    Yes,what I was discussing was the intercept probability on the move. Does it decrease when the Tor is on the move.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:04 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:We already have seen that missiles are fired on the move.

    Yes,what I was discussing was the intercept probability on the move. Does it decrease when the Tor is on the move.

    Can't know for sure but it definetley will not increase when on the move. I would assume that it does decrease when fired on the move but question is how big is the difference based on guidance it shouldn't be big of a deal in difference.
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    GarryB

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:48 am

    One of the problems that prevents missiles being fired on the move is that if the vehicle hits a bump as the missile is being launched the missile can be forced against one side or the other of the launch tube perhaps damaging or shearing off control or stabilisation surfaces.

    Obviously in the later models that can fire on the move stabilisation of the missile tubes is likely improved but also the design of the missile and tube interface will have been adapted to prevent damage despite any movements during missile launch.

    In terms of guidance accuracy degradation while moving... as you can imagine that if you are moving you still have to keep track of both the outgoing missile and the incoming threat target... if the sensor you are using is vibrating or moving its accuracy in measuring the precise location of the missile or the target will be effected in a negative way.

    Accuracy with radar sensors might not even be effected... remember the radar centre of a target might not even be a part of the target so an error in any direction wont make a huge difference to lethality as long as the proximity fuse works properly.

    With modern autotrackers taking inaccurate target tracking out of the equation then performance should be very good...

    I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...


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    George1

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:30 pm

    Servicemen of the Eastern MD air defence to start mastering Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes



    Servicemen of the Eastern MD separate tank formation air defence units, which are located in Buryatia, will start mastering Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes at the base of specialized air defence center in Yeysk (Krasnodar Krai).

    In the course of the training course, the servicemen will practice loading of the launching systems, searching and detecting of aerial targets. The crews will perform first firing at the Kapustin Yar air defence training center in the second half of 2016.

    After retraining course, AD unit personnel will return to the permanent location with the new hardware.

    Tor-M2U newest missile AD complexes are to replace Osa-AK systems this year.

    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12075436@egNews


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    George1

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:11 pm

    Russia developing Arctic version of Tor missile system

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/860114


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    medo

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:07 pm



    Here we could see for the first time serial Tor-M2 with new EO complex with additional thermal imager instead of old TV camera.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:10 pm

    medo wrote:

    Here we could see for the first time serial Tor-M2 with new EO complex with additional thermal imager instead of old TV camera.

    I thought it always had a Thermal imager. There were some pictures from the Okotnik Image Processor that were taken from several plattforms, all in TV and IR channel and IIRC Tor was one of them. Have to check it this weekend tho.
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    medo

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:52 pm



    New Tor-M2 firing on targets in Buryatia.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:57 pm

    These new Tor-M2's, do they use the newer 9M338 missiles?
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    medo

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:03 pm

    sepheronx wrote:These new Tor-M2's, do they use the newer 9M338 missiles?

    I don't know for the missiles, but visual difference between them and older variant is in optical sight, where newer version have different box with TV and thermal imager instead of old long TV camera.
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    Viktor

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:51 pm

    New TOR-M2 delivered thumbsup

    [url=In Buryatia connection BBO received anti-aircraft missile systems, "Tor-M2U"]http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160407/1404148850.html[/url]
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    jhelb

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Mon May 09, 2016 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...

    Garry, am not sure if you have seen this video, I found it on a Russian forum that I visit frequently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85q22wIk1_w

    You will notice that the first 2 missiles fired by the TOR follows a zigzag path, however the missiles fired later follows a straight path.

    So can the missiles be programmed to follow a zigzag or straight path towards the target? Thanks.
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    Zivo

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Zivo on Mon May 09, 2016 7:37 pm

    It only fires two missiles.

    I don't know exactly how Tor is programed, but the missile is guided to the predicted point of intercept by the launcher, and the path is updated as necessary. If I had to guess, due to the extreme angle present during the initial orientation phase of the flight, that the guidance system has to uses at least two separate homing algorithms. The zig-zag occurs when the algorithm switches over from the initial boost phase, to the en route/terminal phase.

    That is a very cool video. Good find.
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    Militarov

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 09, 2016 7:51 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would say the difficulty in defeating a moving TOR vehicle launching missiles at targets would be enormous and would be well worth it. I suspect when protecting a convoy then operating on the move would make it a much more valuable vehicle to defend the group. Not having to stop to fire means the convoy can continue...

    Garry, am not sure if you have seen this video, I found it on a Russian forum that I visit frequently.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85q22wIk1_w

    You will notice that the first 2 missiles fired by the TOR follows a zigzag path, however the missiles fired later follows a straight path.

    So can the missiles be programmed to follow a zigzag or straight path towards the target? Thanks.

    Zigzag as you call it is simply intercept trajectory estimate correction from by guidance system, it happens on all systems. Later during the flights its determined by intercept algorithms as Zivo already stated. But its pure math, stochastic approximation. AA missiles itself do not have "avoidance" maneuvers.

    Depending on algorithms used on system in question missile will position itself differently though flight.
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    GarryB

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 10, 2016 11:48 am

    First of all nice vid... thanks for posting.

    There are two factors involved in the zig zaggy flight of the missiles... one is speed related and the other is control related.

    Very simply as the speed changes for the missiles the force generated by the control surfaces changes so as the missiles accelerate the control surfaces generate more and more lift or control force... when it starts to accelerate the control surfaces have to go full turn to get a change of heading but as the missile accelerates that force rapidly increases... think of it as a car... when going at slow speed you need significant turns of the wheel to get the car to turn one way or another but as the car accelerates you turn the wheel less and less to get it to turn.

    The control aspect is also important as the guidance system works by working out where the missile is in relation to the target, so like with an ATGM there is a half a second when the missile is launched where the command system gathers the missile under control and sends it in the correct direction to intercept the target.

    There is absolutely zero value in flying a zig zag flight profile to intercept... it just reduces speed and wastes energy.

    Once the control system has gathered the missile and the missile is moving at speed the missile will be directed to an intercept point where the target will be when the missile arrives... the target will not necessarily be heading directly at the SAM so the missile might be sent in an unusual direction for the intercept.

    Basically the time to intercept the target will be calculated and the missile will be directed to a point in space in front of the target based on its speed and flight direction... so if it is flying at 20m/s and the intercept will take 10 seconds for the missile to get there the missile wont be directed to where the target is right now, but 200m in front of where it is now... ie where it will be when the missile gets there.

    If the target is flying straight and level and does not change speed then few corrections will be needed, but if the target is dancing all over the sky... changing speed and direction randomly then its future position will be constantly tracked and course corrections will be averaged out to get as close as possible... until impact.


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    jhelb

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  jhelb on Sat May 28, 2016 7:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Point is that these seekers look for IR patterns rather than actual targets so a group of rocks on the ground could look like a vehicle or vice versa

    Will Tor get a fire & forget missile any time soon?
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    Rmf

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Rmf on Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:27 pm

    in kazahstan tor on kamaz truck

    https://lenta.ru/news/2016/06/02/tor_kamaz/
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    Militarov

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:12 pm

    "Russia’s Tor (NATO reporting name: SA-15 Gauntlet) surface-to-air missile system will become fully robotized and be able to destroy targets autonomously, Deputy CEO and Air Defense Missile System Chief Designer at the Kupol Electromechanical Factory Iosif Drize told TASS. As the deputy CEO said, the Tor air defense missile system can work autonomously today but an operator is required in heavy jamming conditions.

    The TOR-M1 9A331-1 (NATO code : SA-15 Gauntlet) surface-to-air missile system is a mobile, integrated air defense system designed and manufacrured by the The Russian Defence Industry. The TOR-M1 features a turret with a top mounted target acquisition radar, and frontal tracking radar, with 8 ready to fire 9M330 or 9M331 missiles stored vertically between the two radars.

    With a weight of 167 kg, the 9M330 missile is 3.5 m long, carries a 15 kg warhead and has a peak speed of around Mach 2.8. Missiles can also be fired against surface targets. Each missile is a sealed round, stored in two groups of four. Engagement range is up to 12 km with minimum range varying between 100–2000 m, depending upon version and an effective altitude of 10–6000 m.

    "There are plans to increase the capabilities of the artificial intelligence so that the system can accomplish combat missions without an operator," Drize said. As the deputy CEO said, the enterprise is currently working on the Tor air defense missile system to boost its capabilities for destroying cruise missiles based on the stealth technology.

    "We are working on the system to make it able to reliably detect and destroy targets with low signature," he added. The Almaz-Antey Corporation said earlier that it had started working on an Arctic version of the Tor surface-to-air missile system.

    Moreover, the corporation may develop a shipborne version of the Tor air defense missile system. According to the Almaz-Antey Corporation, the first shipborne Tor air defense missile systems can be manufactured in 2018-2019."


    Source: http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_2016_global_defense_security_news_industry/russian-made_tor_sa-15_gauntlet_air_defense_missile_system_will_become_fully_robotized_tass_10906165.html

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