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    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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    Austin
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:31 am

    Guess its not surprising some time back they showed drawing of BUK-M3 on truck with VLS launcher.

    I hope they release the specs officially at MAKS this year

    TheArmenian
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:34 am

    Austin wrote:Cool , Looks like BUK-M3 is a VLS system now.
    I am not sure about that.
    By looking at launcher elevating mechanism, I would say it is not VLS.
    We will have to wait for a final answer.
    As for the number of tubes, I would say 2 rows of five missiles, but we need a better picture.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:38 am




    TheArmenian
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:40 am

    That is the missile reloads transporter. Not the launch vehicle.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:02 am

    It seems Buk-M3 will be developed from Buk-M2 with new missiles placed in containers. Maybe those missiles will be the same as those Russian navy will use on Grigorovich class frigates Buk VLS. I wonder if Buk-M3 will use same PESA radar as Buk-M2 or it will be newer AESA.

    Is Buk-M2 still in production for Russian army or they wait for Buk-M3?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:42 pm

    The cannister itself is an indication its a VLS launcher , The tubes are wodden round that are sealed and cannisterised

    These would be cold launched sytem launched vertically , IF these were like previous system they would have been on rails like BUK-M2

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:27 am

    I believe it is not VLS but standard BUK with more missiles all in containers.

    Here is one more picture. Check the lower right corner.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  xeno on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:55 am

    good picture. BUK M3 is not VLS.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:08 am

    Do we have picture of the BUK pictures/chart behind the model ?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:08 am

    The fact that they are using launch tubes suggests commonality with the VLS naval systems.

    Whether the land based systems are raised to actually vertical or just near vertical for launch is not actually that important... these missiles are medium range and are not short range point defence quick reaction missiles.

    The question is, are these missiles Shtil-1 missiles in the same container/launcher tubes as the naval model, or are they new developments?

    It would make a lot of sense for there to be unification between Army and Navy missiles in terms of missiles and sensors and systems to reduce costs and get better value for money.

    If the Army can get away with using launchers that don't raise the missiles all the way to vertical for launch then that has ramifications in terms of potential to fire on the move for the launch platforms. I suspect with such a large missile that is only a remote possibility, but then the Army will be interested in the evolved systems which stretch back through the SA-17, SA-11, to the SA-6, which had four, four, and three ready to launch missiles respectively... even assuming two rows of five that is a serious increase in ready to fire missiles for each battery.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:48 am

    GarryB wrote:The fact that they are using launch tubes suggests commonality with the VLS naval systems.

    Not Really a tube launched is a wodden round that are stored in sealed cannister that increases the longivity of missile and prevents the exposure of the SAM to atmospheric elements.

    Tube launch has nothing to do with Naval or Ground capability.

    The question is, are these missiles Shtil-1 missiles in the same container/launcher tubes as the naval model, or are they new developments?

    Shtil-1 Missile is based on BUK-M2 and Shtil is based on BUK-M1 SAM.

    BUK-M3 from unofficial specs that i have seen is a new missile which has ARH seeker and a range of 70 Km and can intercept MRBM class missile with a range of 1000 km.

    I would still wait for them to release the official specs on BUK-M3 system.

    Yes a non VLS system would allow the Tracked or Wheeled TEL to fire the missile on the move which is a critical feature for any ground forces on the move.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:53 am


    Tube launch has nothing to do with Naval or Ground capability.

    The switch to a container suggests that it is no longer rail launched, which is a significant change for the missile in terms of design. The fact that the naval model is moving to VLS tube storage and launch and now we see a model of the land based missile in a sealed container is important and suggests this new missile is also no longer rail launched.

    Russian ATGMs include rail launched missiles like AT-1, AT-2, and AT-3 types, and also tube launched weapons (AT-4/5/6 etc)... none of which are vertical launch, but adopting a new launch method for air and land launched missiles suggests and change towards commonality that seems to be a goal at the moment.


    Yes a non VLS system would allow the Tracked or Wheeled TEL to fire the missile on the move which is a critical feature for any ground forces on the move.

    I would be more cautious in that area... heavy missiles can damage the launcher if the vehicle hits a bump or lurches during the launch of such a heavy missile... I would expect it would be stationary for launch.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:38 pm

    I would be more cautious in that area... heavy missiles can damage the launcher if the vehicle hits a bump or lurches during the launch of such a heavy missile... I would expect it would be stationary for launch.

    Agree. It will for sure need short stop to launch missile and than continue to go further. It is big success for such system, if the launcher could move and guide missile to the target, considering this missile will need some time to rich target 50 km away.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:45 pm

    Yes, mobility will be increased, but launching would warrant a short stop.

    Of course having said that mobility is a good thing but even fairly old aircraft radars had functions to detect and track moving targets on the ground, so continuously moving is not a good thing either.

    When a vehicle does something to betray its position like scan for targets with a radar, or launch a huge missile, then moving to another location quickly is a very good idea, but driving around all the time can make you visible to the enemy too.

    Ask any hunter and often the first thing you are scanning for is movement... or should I say the first thing you see/the first thing that draws your attention to things that are hiding is movement.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:33 pm

    True, but Buk is intended to protect ground forces units, so its moving also depend on moving of protected unit itself. When protected unit is on marsh, Buk is on the marsh with it. Bite when unit is stationary, than Buk moves are limited in changing positions.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:51 pm

    The BUK would not be protecting one unit, they would likely have a brigade or group of brigades to protect and would more accurately be protecting the ground being covered by those brigades.

    As the friendly forces move the Buk batteries would move... but strategically and certainly not all at once to ensure proper coverage... but you already know that. Smile


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:29 pm

    Of course we know that. Fire, while battery is on move, is still important plus in defending large units in case of attack, because batteries on the move could still engage attacking planes together with batteries on defending positions and still keep moving on their defending positions to cover protected units.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue May 28, 2013 8:29 pm

    http://vpk.name/news/90296_v_hode_strelb_iz_zrs_tormu_na_poligone_kapustin_yar_byilo_porazheno_bolee_20_vozdushnyih_celei_uslovnogo_protivnika.html

    Tor-M(2)U successfully destroy more than 20 targets in last live firing exercise.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Wed May 29, 2013 4:51 am

    nice acquisition Very Happy


    Air defense systems "Tor-M2" go for two batteries TSB until the end of the year


    New systems will arm two anti-aircraft missile batteries. This year is expected to enroll in more than 40 units of the new generation of radar stations.


    Khabarovsk, May 29 - RIA Novosti. New anti-aircraft missile system "Tor-M2" to the end of the year will go on air defense units, motorized joints of the Eastern Military District, said Wednesday the press service of the county.

    "It is planned to equip two new systems of anti-aircraft missile batteries. Currently, military units, which he entered a new technique being retrained," - states the report.

    It is noted that this year is expected to enroll in more than 40 units of the new generation of radar stations.

    "Tor-M2" - a new generation of combat short-range air defense systems. The Battery "Tor-M2", consisting of four military vehicles at the same time is able to hit 16 targets flying from any direction at a speed of up to 700 meters per second at a distance of 12 kilometers and an altitude of up to ten miles in all weather conditions, day and night.



    LINK

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TR1 on Wed May 29, 2013 5:04 am

    Only thing I am concerned about is their inability to increase max target speed past 700m/s.

    I guess culprit is limited space to change Tor missile significantly.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Wed May 29, 2013 12:06 pm

    Fake TOR targets - simple, cheap and effective and ... mass produced Very Happy




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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed May 29, 2013 2:59 pm

    TR1 wrote:Only thing I am concerned about is their inability to increase max target speed past 700m/s.

    I guess culprit is limited space to change Tor missile significantly.

    700 m/s is more than twice the speed of sound. What targets within TOR's engagement envelope can fly at speeds exceeding that?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TR1 on Wed May 29, 2013 5:31 pm

    There are quite a few ARMs out there that fly faster than that, though I am not sure what their approach speeds are.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 pm

    Viktor wrote:Fake TOR targets - simple, cheap and effective and ... mass produced Very Happy
    Ive seen balloon decoys but never flat cardboard ones. Shocked Shocked Razz

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Zivo on Wed May 29, 2013 7:24 pm

    Viktor wrote:Fake TOR targets - simple, cheap and effective and ... mass produced Very Happy




    I know this seems cartoonish, but it actually works. Laughing

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