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    TOR-M2 Air Defence system

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    TR1
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:37 pm

    medo wrote:http://ria.ru/arms_news/20120716/700683482.html

    To the end of 2012 Eastern military district will receive new Tor-M2U systems. It's interesting, that there is still no pictures of Tor-M2U although last year South military district receive them.

    Are we sure they actually received them, and it wasn't "Going to receive" type of news?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:45 am

    The news were, that in December 2011 they received them in Volgograd region. But until we see clear picture of army Tor-M2U, there is no certain confirmation. There will be a chance to picture them on firings.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:09 am

    Below are photos of an OSA (SA-8 Gecko) short range SAM system of the Armenian Army during exercises.
    In the second photo, one can see the optical tracking device which I believe is an addition/modernization of the system.
    The last photo is interesting because it is quite rare to see a picture of the optical tracking screen on a Russian SAM.






    medo
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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:46 pm

    I think TV sight on Armenian OSA is standard one, like the one in the link.

    http://oaotranscom.ru/televizionnoopticheskiivizir


    There is also modernized version 9Sh38M, which also have II tube inside for night operations.

    http://forums.airbase.ru/2011/09/t83098,4--istoriya-razrabotki-zrk-osa.html

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:22 pm

    I always liked the Wasp.

    It always seemed to me to be a neat little vehicle.

    At one stage AGAT put out a small ARH seeker... like a mini R-77 seeker and they said it was for short range missiles... AAM and SAM and I thought that fitting a small compact ARH seeker to the SA-8 or SA-15 missiles would be interesting. Along with fitting them to R-73s for helos and light attack aircraft.

    New digital electronics and more compact radar systems would certainly make the OSA interesting.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:48 pm

    Can the optical system be used to guide the missile to the target and hit it without the use of radar? or do you still need to use the radar to guide the missile to the target?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:08 am

    There are two radar, one is a search radar and the other radar is the tracking radar.

    Shockingly enough the search radar searches for targets... it is a sophisticated and expensive 3D model, and the tracking radar has two functions... tracking the targets and outgoing missiles, the guidance commands are sent via datalink to the missile.

    Using optics, I rather suspect it would use SACLOS guidance with the optical tracking of the missile and target with course corrections being transmitted via the data uplink.




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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:06 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Can the optical system be used to guide the missile to the target and hit it without the use of radar? or do you still need to use the radar to guide the missile to the target?

    Optical system doesn't need tracking radar for missile guidance. Some systems have IR missile locator or in Osa guiding complex have small missile tracking radars to locate positions of missiles. Special radio antenna than send missile guiding signals to the missile.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:50 pm

    Very simply... the TOR missiles are not radar guided missiles.

    The TOR system uses radar to find targets and to track the targets and the outgoing missiles and it calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink.

    In other words the missiles are command guided, and the target and missile tracking can be by radar or by optics.

    The Pantsir-S1 and Tunguska are actually the same, they both can track targets using radar and use a datalink to direct their missiles to the target, or they can use optics to track the target and the datalink to direct the missiles to that target.

    Note the Pantsir-S1 can direct 1 missile via optical guidance and 3 missiles via radar tracking at one time, so it can optically track one target and one missile and radar track 3 targets and 3 missiles at once...


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:46 am

    So, in optical mode the system will operate much like an antitank missile, except that the target is moving faster than a tank and the SAM is flying faster than an antitank missile.

    But you still have to detect the target first. This can of course be done by using the acquisition radar of the system or by information fed from the IADS or simply another radar. The target can also be detected by observers.

    My next question is: can the Osa's optical system be used for scanning and detecting targets or is it strictly for tracking the targets whose coordinates have been provided by its own detection radar (or another source) ?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:16 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    My next question is: can the Osa's optical system be used for scanning and detecting targets or is it strictly for tracking the targets whose coordinates have been provided by its own detection radar (or another source) ?

    You could use optical system for detecting targets most likely but given its field of view its most likely you would get bombed hundred times before detecting even one target. You will most likely use you search radar to find targets, that tracking will do optical system and search radar turned off.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:28 am

    So, in optical mode the system will operate much like an antitank missile, except that the target is moving faster than a tank and the SAM is flying faster than an antitank missile.

    Yes, in optical mode the system operate in same SACLOS princip as antitank missiles.


    My next question is: can the Osa's optical system be used for scanning and detecting targets or is it strictly for tracking the targets whose coordinates have been provided by its own detection radar (or another source) ?

    Of course it could, if radars are broke or any other reason, but very slim chances to find something. Usually SAMs inside battery cover given sector and if Osa have to find targets optically, than it is better if commander open his roof hatch and observe given sector with his binoculars. Better chances to find something.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:34 pm

    A radar unit does not generally operate alone, it should have feeds of info from the unit command and a central command.

    In a unit of say 6 vehicles you wouldn't need 6 radars operating all the time... with the vehicles spread out... a few hundred metres apart, you could coordinate it so one vehicle will search for 30 seconds and then shut down... and pass the information it collected to the other vehicles and then another vehicle in the unit will scan for 30 seconds and then shut down. Any targets detected in this way can be allocated to individual vehicles to optically search for, or as Medo suggests the commander of a vehicle could stick his head out the hatch and use binoculars... or perhaps just listen for a few seconds.

    Much of the time the unit will get advanced warning of targets entering their sector and the general direction of their approach and their altitude, which makes searching easier.

    With a modern upgrade digital video systems with thermal imaging greatly improves optical performance and adds features like auto scan and auto track. Different zoom performances should allow large areas of the sky to be scanned.

    Some systems like Phoenix use 360 degree IR scanning which should be able to be automated and fairly effective at detecting incoming threats without emissions.

    Other options include the small box antennas often seen on the SA-13 SAM system that includes systems to detect the low power dopplar radars used by low flying aircraft and missiles used to avoid hitting the ground during low altitude flights at high speed in the dark or bad weather.
    Such systems could also be used to detect the MMW radar emissions of long bow apaches.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:13 am

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/11/27/thor/

    Southern military district in Volgograd region receive first batch of Tor-M1-2U. They will replace Osa and old Tor. I wonder if this is actually Tor-M2U and is just journalist lapsus or they are M1 modernized to M2 level. Considering its search radar have 30 km range, could simultaneously engage 4 targets and reach 10 km altitude (15 km range), than this is most probably Tor-M2U.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:23 pm

    medo wrote:if this is actually Tor-M2U and is just journalist lapsus or they are M1 modernized to M2 level

    Looks like they're upgraded Tor-M1's. From the MOD website

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11493486@egNews

    P.S

    According to the chat on Russian forums, the TOR-M1-2U is an upgrade that uses elements from the TOR-M2U. Apparently the developers of the TOR-M2U need to fix some faults that were detected during the trials. It's expected to enter service in 2013. Also, it's said to differ significantly from the export TOR-M2E

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:17 pm

    The troops of the southern military district received new air defense systems Tor-M1-2U "

    The first shipment of anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMS) Tor-M1-2U "entered service with the army of the southern military district (ÛVO), said Tuesday the journalists zamnača
    l′nika ÛVO press service Col. Oleg Kochetkov.

    The first consignment of Tor-M1 MISSILE SYSTEM-2U "troops entered the southern military district. By the end of this year the AAMS will consist of air defense force unit in the Volgograd region, "said Kochetkov.

    According to him, the new AAMS Tor-M1-2U "went into service in the framework of the State Defense order. The system will replace the standing armed with missile short-range "Osa", "Tor" and "Tor-M1".

    Tor-M1 MISSILE SYSTEM-2U "is intended to attack aircraft, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicle aerodynamic, guided missiles and other precision weapons, flying at medium, small and extremely low altitudes. The system is capable of hitting four targets simultaneously at a height of up to 10 kilometers. Its crew consists of three people.

    "The complex applied on-board small aerial target detection station, which allows you to discover and manage up to several dozens of air targets in the zone more than 30 kilometers. In addition, electronic equipment new ANTI-MISSILE WEAPON lets you choose the level of risk, "suggesting" combat sequence of calculation of shelling, "said Kochetkov.
    Tor-M1 MISSILE SYSTEM-2U "is capable of providing air defence units and facilities cover day and night, in all weather conditions, in addition, the system features high jamming immunity.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=487671814627138&set=a.289548557772799.66899.145866335474356&type=1&relevant_count=1

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:06 am

    So how much does one 9m330 missile cost? the 57e6?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  medo on Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:47 am

    http://redstar.ru/index.php/component/k2/item/6332-na-ohrane-vostochnyih-rubezhey

    Russian army in Eastern military district received in 2012 new S-400, Pantsir and Tor units. It seems they have those Tor-M2U they talked about in summer.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:25 am

    medo wrote:http://redstar.ru/index.php/component/k2/item/6332-na-ohrane-vostochnyih-rubezhey

    Russian army in Eastern military district received in 2012 new S-400, Pantsir and Tor units. It seems they have those Tor-M2U they talked about in summer.

    Not sure, as only recently we have seen modernized Tor-M1 being introduced as well.

    Anyway I do hope new Tor-M2 is being produced for Russian Army.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:26 am

    Shown Aero-India 2013

    TOR-M2KM


    New models shown to Sergey Shoigu last week:
    BUK-M3 in the foreground.
    Antey-2500 behind (missile tubes seem to be thinner than the S-300V (but I am not sure).



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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:49 am

    So now 8-10 BUK-M3 can be carried on tracked chassis ?

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:46 am

    I created a better picture with an arrow pointing to the BUK-M3


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:11 am

    Cool , Looks like BUK-M3 is a VLS system now.

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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:46 am

    Nice... it seems they are using the tube launched Shtil-1 missiles for the land based system.

    This also bodes well for the naval version of the vertical launch system getting into service to replace the single arm launcher.

    The latter of course makes sense as the amount of machinery needed to mechanise the missiles under deck so they can be moved from where they are all stored to below the one armed launcher to be launched in addition to the articulated single arm launcher it is all very complex and takes up space and weight. In comparison a bin with ready to launch missiles takes up a lot less space and if there is a failure with one missile then the other missiles should still be available for use. Rate of launch should be faster too and with vertical launch you can engage targets from any direction without having to aim the launcher.

    Regarding the ground launcher it will mean that apart from the first few seconds to raise the tubes to vertical they should have the same all direction capability which is good for a SAM system to deal with sneak attacks from unexpected directions.

    Thanks for posting.

    BTW in the smaller photo it actually looks like there are 6 tubes in two rows... will be very interesting to get a better view.


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    Re: TOR-M2 Air Defence system

    Post  Zivo on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:05 am

    That's an economical approach, it looks like they just stuck one of the 6x2 naval launcher modules on a tracked chassis. Whatever, it works. Laughing

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