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    F-35 Development and News Thread:

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    collegeboy16
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:05 pm

    your plane has to be really bad when your enemy is saying go for it...
    oh well, as Werewolf said, would prolly save a lot of lives in the future- would make the decision makers think one more time
    when they know their plane isnt that good.

    BlackArrow
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  BlackArrow on Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:21 pm

    I think the F-35 will be great success just like most if not all American tactical aicraft built since the 1940s. Who has bought any MiG-29s lately?

    Werewolf
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:31 pm

    BlackArrow wrote: I think the F-35 will be great success just like most if not all American tactical aicraft built since the 1940s. Who has bought any MiG-29s lately?

    Like the Starfighter?

    Germany bought around 900 of F-104 Starfighters and lost around 420, not a single was engaged by any weapon, they are just shit planes.

    After this Starfighter desaster there was even talk about banning Lockheed Martin products, which were shut up immidiatley since Germany is occupied by the US.

    sepheronx
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:32 pm

    BlackArrow wrote: I think the F-35 will be great success just like most if not all American tactical aicraft built since the 1940s. Who has bought any MiG-29s lately?

    India, Burma are two examples. Apparently Egypt is interested and I think Bangledesh ordered some.

    Nice attempt at trolling though.

    I can troll too! At least no Russian jet suffocates its pilots like F-22 has. BTW, anotger F-18 lost again today.

    BlackArrow
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  BlackArrow on Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:47 pm

    God, you guys are fast...

    F-104 - safety record no worse than its contemporaries from the 1950s, probably better than the MiG-21's, who knows? I see the IAF lost another MiG-21 this week. Killed its pilot too.

    India, Burma are two examples. Apparently Egypt is interested and I think Bangledesh ordered some. wrote:

    Burma, Bangladesh? Now you are trolling. India bought the MiG-29K because they bought the Kuznetsov carrier - all part of the same deal. The Indian air force refused to buy the MiG-35, Algeria returned their SMTs.

    F-22 hasn't killed any more pilots than the Su-30MKI? how many MKIs have been lost in the IAF, 3?

    sepheronx
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:12 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:God, you guys are fast...

    F-104 - safety record no worse than its contemporaries from the 1950s, probably better than the MiG-21's, who knows? I see the IAF lost another MiG-21 this week. Killed its pilot too.  



    Burma, Bangladesh? Now you are trolling. India bought the MiG-29K because they bought the Kuznetsov carrier - all part of the same deal. The Indian air force refused to buy the MiG-35, Algeria returned their SMTs.

    F-22 hasn't killed any more pilots than the Su-30MKI? how many MKIs have been lost in the IAF, 3?

    5Th gen is being matketed as bees nees. So far, nope. And Indian pilots and maintenance. How many Su-30'S in Russian service crashed and killed pilots?

    As well: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/bangladesh/air-force-modernization.htm

    And:

    http://en.take-off.ru/news/102/603

    Burma.

    Also, look up MiG-29UPG for India.

    Werewolf
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:29 am

    BlackArrow wrote:God, you guys are fast...

    F-104 - safety record no worse than its contemporaries from the 1950s, probably better than the MiG-21's, who knows? I see the IAF lost another MiG-21 this week. Killed its pilot too.  

    Definetley not, the MiG-21 and their operators have not lost almost 50% of their MiG-21 fleet in only 23 years without enemy engagement, German pilots and maintenance are rather good considering some Arabic countries under embargos who operated MiG-21s and still Starfighter fall from the sky like no other plane ever before.

    The Starfighter has its reputation very well deserved as the Meteor, engine problems like no other plane.

    He belongs in top 3 of the biggest failure in military aviation fighter jets, while MiG-21 is among the most succesful fighters and with various upgrades still very useful for smaller budget countries, and most certainly still lethal against F-35 in a dogfight.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:00 am

    Now you are trolling. India bought the MiG-29K because they bought the Kuznetsov carrier - all part of the same deal. The Indian air force refused to buy the MiG-35, Algeria returned their SMTs.

    India bought the MiG-29K for all its new carriers including the Gorshkov Kiev Class carrier they bought. The Kuznetsov is not for sale.

    The Indian Air Force didn't buy the MiG-35 because they didn't want an all Russian fleet, so it failed because it was Russian.

    Algeria returned the SMTs because Sukhoi offered them Su-30s at the same price... the Russian AF accepted those SMT into service and has ordered some more while they wait for the MiG-35s.


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    BlackArrow
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  BlackArrow on Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:59 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    BlackArrow wrote:God, you guys are fast...

    F-104 - safety record no worse than its contemporaries from the 1950s, probably better than the MiG-21's, who knows? I see the IAF lost another MiG-21 this week. Killed its pilot too.  

    Definetley not, the MiG-21 and their operators have not lost almost 50% of their MiG-21 fleet in only 23 years without enemy engagement, German pilots and maintenance are rather good considering some Arabic countries under embargos who operated MiG-21s and still Starfighter fall from the sky like no other plane ever before.

    The Starfighter has its reputation very well deserved as the Meteor, engine problems like no other plane.

    He belongs in top 3 of the biggest failure in military aviation fighter jets, while MiG-21 is among the most succesful fighters and with various upgrades still very useful for smaller budget countries, and most certainly still lethal against F-35 in a dogfight.

    I don't know where you get your information from? 50% of all F-104s lost in accidents? Nonsense, I think it's about 35%. I think it' s accepted today that the Starfighter probably was no worse than it's peers from the 1950s - Certainly no worse than the MiG-21 or Su-7. Check out this website for a review of Soviet crash statistics for the MiG-21 and Su-7.

    http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/AiKOut06/Su-7B/Su-7B075.htm

    TR1
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:48 am

    Many MiG-21 operators had nothing like the crash rate the Germans had with the Starfighter.

    But in general yes, fighter operations were dangerous then.
    Though it is funny to see people desperately try to deny that any US fighter could possible have a worse crash record than a Soviet counterpart.

    Dat superiority complex Very Happy

    TR1
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:49 am

    BlackArrow wrote: I think the F-35 will be great success just like most if not all American tactical aicraft built since the 1940s. Who has bought any MiG-29s lately?

    Lol. That is a moronic comparison and you know it.

    By this standard we can say every Soviet tactical plane was a great success as well.

    Seriously, go ahead and pat yourself on the back, no one else will do it for you.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:52 am

    TR1 wrote:Many MiG-21 operators had nothing like the crash rate the Germans had with the Starfighter.

    But in general yes, fighter operations were dangerous then.
    Though it is funny to see people desperately try to deny that any US fighter could possible have a worse crash record than a Soviet counterpart.

    Dat superiority complex Very Happy

    I think the most dangerous Soviet aircraft were the iterations of VTOL aircraft, that didn't stop Lockheed Martin from buying the VTOL blueprints from Yakovlev. From Afghanistan to VTOL aircraft, seems like the US establishment likes to make the same mistakes the Soviets made lol! Embarassed 

    As Sa'iqa
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    US grounds entire F-35 fighter jet fleet after unexplained fire

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:24 am

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/04/us-grounds-entire-f-35-fighter-jet-fleet?CMP=twt_fd

    nemrod
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  nemrod on Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:23 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/04/us-grounds-entire-f-35-fighter-jet-fleet?CMP=twt_fd

    Somewhere not a bad news, seeing the the F-35's saga, I wonder wether I won't be a fan of the F-35.


    nemrod
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  nemrod on Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:55 pm



    http://www.businessinsider.com/this-map-explains-the-f-35-fiasco-2014-8


    The Pentagon has stuck with the F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter program despite dozens of technical problems and delays, strategic concerns, and massive cost overruns that have nearly doubled the initial cost estimate, raising the cost of building the planes to around $400 billion with a lifetime cost of up to $1.5 trillion.

    One reason why the project has become such a boondoggle is that many states and countries are significantly invested in the plane, relying on its production for income and jobs.

    Every U.S. state but Alaska, Hawaii, Nebraska, and Wyoming has economic ties to the F-35, with 18 states counting on the project for $100 million or more in economic activity, according to primary contractor Lockheed Martin. All told, the project is supposedly responsible for 32,500 jobs in the U.S. Globally, another nine countries have major ties to the F-35.

    One way or another, America's multirole fifth-generation fighter is coming — though it was most recently delayed to September 2017.

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/this-map-explains-the-f-35-fiasco-2014-8#ixzz3BUick6xr




    nemrod
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  nemrod on Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:07 pm


    I could not leave you without this other nugget:
    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/06/canadas-multi-billion-dollar-f-35s-are-irrelevant-without-the-u-s-only-f-22-as-support-american-general-says/

    And now, what about if the SU-35, and Mig-35 could down F-22 -and they can-? lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

    It proves another time that the F-35 it is a scam, US want to tie their allies to them. US can access to every sensible informations, meanwhile the other allies could not. Indeed, they could not access -except Israel- to most strategic informations inside the F-35. They could not operate it without US.
    I think, I am going to be more and more enthousiast about this fighter : lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!





    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/06/canadas-multi-billion-dollar-f-35s-are-irrelevant-without-the-u-s-only-f-22-as-support-american-general-says/

    Canada’s multi-billion dollar F-35s ‘irrelevant’ without U.S.-only F-22 as support, American general says

    David Pugliese, Ottawa Citizen, Postmedia News | March 6, 2014 | Last Updated: Mar 6 5:35 PM ET
    More from Postmedia News
    his undated handout image obtained on April 22, 2009 courtesy of the Joint Strike Fighter program site, shows the F-35 JSF.
    AFP PHOTO / JSF-Hand-Outhis undated handout image obtained on April 22, 2009 courtesy of the Joint Strike Fighter program site, shows the F-35 JSF.


    New questions are being raised about whether the F-35 stealth fighter is the right aircraft for Canada after a U.S. general acknowledged the jet is limited in what it can do and needs to be accompanied on its missions by another multi-million-dollar aircraft.

    The issue for Canada and other potential F-35 buyers is that the other aircraft referred to by the general – the F-22 – isn’t available for foreign sales because of its sophisticated technology.

    Gen. Michael Hostage, head of air combat command in the U.S., said the F-35 is critical for the future of that country’s air force. But in an interview with the Air Force Times, published in February, Hostage pointed out the F-35 needs to work hand-in-hand with the F-22.

    “The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform,” Hostage said. “It needs the F-22.”
    What is the F-22?

    The F-22 Raptor is a single-seat fighter jet made by Lockheed Martin, which also makes the F-35.
    Lockheed Martin calls its F-22 the world’s most advanced fighter. The U.S. has banned foreign sales of the Raptor.
    The F-22 is the only fighter capable of simultaneously conducting air-to-air and air-to-ground combat missions with near impunity, according to Lockheed.
    The final F-22 Raptor was delivered to the U.S. Air Force in May 2012. It is no longer in production.

    The U.S. Air Force is upgrading the F-22, which officers see as essential. Without the upgraded F-22s, “the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant,” Hostage said.

    The comments have sparked heated debate in aerospace and defence circles, and analyst Martin Shadwick says Hostage’s statements are bound to raise eyebrows in Canada. “I’m sure you won’t see the general’s comments in any F-35 marketing literature,” said Shadwick, a York University professor. “Canada needs a multi-role fighter and even if the F-22 were available we couldn’t afford another aircraft to fly top cover for the F-35s.”

    Senior Royal Canadian Air Force officers have acknowledged they are keen to see the F-35 in Canada.

    But in 2012, the Conservative government put a temporary halt to its purchase of the F-35 and appointed a group of senior officials to examine options for the replacement of the country’s CF-18 fighter jets.

    That process is still under way. Public Works and Government Services can’t say when it will be completed.
    Related

    Richard Shimooka: Stick with the F-35
    John Ivison: Report fires at aimless Canadian military ruled by balance sheets not foreign policy
    Lockheed Martin plans 4,000 job cuts as U.S. spending declines

    Hostage’s comments echo earlier concerns by critics that the F-35 is mainly designed to strike at ground targets and is not well suited for aerial combat and interceptions.

    But Mike Barton, a spokesman for Lockheed Martin Canada, said the F-35 meets all Canada’s needs. The general’s comments are a reflection of how the U.S. Air Force operates and are not relevant to Canada, he added.

    Barton said Lockheed Martin has not seen any adverse reaction to Hostage’s comments from the Canadian government or any other nation interested in purchasing the F-35. “We’ve heard nothing about it impacting foreign interest,” Barton said.

    The F-35 stealth fighter had become a major political headache for the Conservative government, which made it a lynchpin of their defence policy.

    The controversy surrounding the F-35 purchase has centred on technical and cost issues, as well as the acquisition process. The Department of National Defence originally claimed the project would cost around $14.7 billion but then-Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page put that price tag at around $29 billion.

    Auditor General Michael Ferguson also issued a report concluding that DND officials withheld key information from Parliament about the jet purchase, underestimated costs, and didn’t follow proper procurement rules.

    Still, the F-35 has had strong support in government. Prime Minister Stephen Harper has labelled the jet a good deal for Canada.

    dpugliese@ottawacitizen.com

    Twitter.com/davidpugliese



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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:57 am

    I doubt they would, and they are pretty darn far into the boondoggle known as the F-35. - Lockheed owns the Senate and Congress itself, there is no way...

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:07 am

    F35 is a huge debacle but apart from the huge commitment there is an other problem as well. Nobody guarantees that a possible replacement would be a better plane. For example look to the main contender from Boeing. With the pace USA aerospace industry declines a bad plane from the late 90s like the F35 might be better than the best plane they can come up with in 2014



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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:09 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:F35 is a huge debacle but apart from the huge commitment there is an other problem as well. Nobody guarantees that a possible replacement would be a better plane. For example look to the main contender  from Boeing. With the pace USA aerospace industry declines a bad plane from the late 90s like the F35 might be better than the best plane they can come up with in 2014



    US best plane is still the F-15.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:14 am

    Agree... but you obviously need to try to create something new AFTER FORTY YEARS!!!

    Werewolf
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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:06 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Agree... but you obviously need to try to create something new AFTER FORTY YEARS!!!

    By giving a crappy company like Lockheed Martin to do the job?

    I mean Lockheet Martin who created the F-104 Starfighter, or Widow maker, Comet, Mayfly and all the other nicknames it got because it is a crappy jet that we lost in germany alone over 300 from 900 jets without any enemy engagement, to make the new jet?

    Lockheet Martin company was almost banned in Germany, at least there were talks to ban any Lockheet Martin products for the Luftwaffe, but that was shut down since Germany is just a colony of the US.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:27 am

    But Northrop didn't even show up after the debacle they suffered in the previous competition... and she also shows the very same deficiencies Lockheed suffer from like schedule delays, overcosts, endless bugs, over ambitiousness, anti-robustness, practicality deficiencies, maintenance deficiencies etc. They are even worse in production rates (the only thing Lockheed is good at) but at least they are better designers and developers.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:53 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Agree... but you obviously need to try to create something new AFTER FORTY YEARS!!!

    By giving a crappy company like Lockheed Martin to do the job?

    I mean Lockheet Martin who created the F-104 Starfighter, or Widow maker, Comet, Mayfly and all the other nicknames it got because it is a crappy jet that we lost in germany alone over 300 from 900 jets without any enemy engagement, to make the new jet?

    Lockheet Martin company was almost banned in Germany, at least there were talks to ban any Lockheet Martin products for the Luftwaffe, but that was shut down since Germany is just a colony of the US.

    They didn't "give" Lockheed the OK, Lockheed bought the OK! - Look at how they won the F-22 program, now the F-35 etc... They own Congress!

    Kelly J. was great, but even he had bad programs. After him Lockheed went down the crapper (in terms of aircraft "greatness").

    Bummer they weren't... Twisted Evil

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:35 am

    If i had decision over making for USa new aircraft i would give it to Lockheed Martin, great way do let an AirForce die, especially with plans to kick out F-15/16/18 and A-10 and exchange those good jets with a turkey that is horrible at everything the F-35.

    So i'm happy with this decision.

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    Re: F-35 Development and News Thread:

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:56 am

    @Hannibal Barca: As far as I know the problem of US military industry is NOT the technology, but the way people use them.

    Many kinds of US weapon express a clear technological superiority but many of these superiority are unneccessary and they created more problems than benefits. For example the disaster named M16 first generation and another disaster named F-35.

    Correct me if I am wrong but for me a basic design actually have a considerable rooms for improvement, with this in mind the current F-teens are still capable for general roles and can more or less keep the pace quite well if intensively modernized.

    US next 5th gen fighter should have been an upgraded version of the F-22 and should belong to the elite forces or using for special missions.

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