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    Tu-22M3: News

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    hoom

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  hoom on Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:39 am

    They haven't.

    They were mach 3 missiles back then. It was only in the 1990s that the Russians offered a mach 4.5 testing version of the missile using new more powerful propellents.

    The old missile did fly at 40,000m altitude to fly above USN SAMs and F-14 missiles...
    Yeah, I've come to the conclusion those numbers were mixing up the Kh-32 stats for Kh-22 Mad

    Kh-22 is a Mach 2.5 dive, only 380km max range so the Backfire would need to break through CAP somehow to get shots at a CVBG.

    40km altitude & Mach 4.6 terminal dive is the Kh-32 which started development way back due to that issue, got shelved for a long time due to Soviet breakup/economic woes & only restarted 2012 apparently.
    Presumably its same engine/propellant & new electrics in same airframe -> runs a mostly ballistic profile to get out 600-800km (some sources say 1000).
    Kh-32 needs the M3M upgrade, T-22M3 can't run it.


    Seems the M3M upgrade is based on older M4.
    The quoted number of 30 to be upgraded goes back into the noughties at least.
    Apparently there were 36 combat ready M3s in 2012, 115 airframes total, some articles from then specifically state 36 upgrades planned ie the whole current fleet.
    Also supposedly Kazan plant has 4 incomplete airframes so there could be a possibility of completing them to new standard if they are in good condition.

    Phalanx totally failed, and those mach 3 missiles were MA-31s which were based on the Kh-31 anti radiation/anti ship missile
    Yes thats the one!
    But I meant intercepted with Standard or ESSM not Phalanx.

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:10 am

    And the MiG-25 influenced the F-15 and F-22...
    Indeed!

    The TU-22M is derived from the TU-22:
    No it wasn't.
    I beg to differ: Specifications (Tu-22R)
    General characteristics
    Crew: three – pilot, navigator, weapons officer
    Length: 41.60 m (136 ft 5 in)
    Wingspan: 23.17 m (76 ft 0 in)
    Height: 10.13 m (33 ft 3 in)
    Wing area: 162 m² (1,742 ft²)
    Loaded weight: 85,000 kg (187,000 lb)
    Max. takeoff weight: 92,000 kg (203,000 lb)
    Powerplant: 2 × Dobrynin RD-7M-2 turbojets
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22#Specifications_(Tu-22R)

    Specifications (Tu-22M3)
    General characteristics
    Crew: 4 (pilot, co-pilot, navigator, weapon systems officer)
    Length: 42.4 m (139 ft 4 in)
    Wingspan:
    Spread (20° sweep): 34.28 m (112 ft 6 in)
    Swept (65° sweep): 23.30 m (76 ft 6 in)
    Height: 11.05 m (36 ft 3 in)
    Wing area:
    Spread: 183.6 m² (1,976 ft²)
    Swept: 175.8 m² (1,892 ft²)
    Empty weight: 58,000 kg (128,000 lb)
    Loaded weight: 112,000 kg (246,000 lb)
    Max. takeoff weight: 124,000 kg (273,000 lb) ; 126,400 kg (278,700 lb) for rocket assisted TO
    Fuel capacity: 54,000 kg (118,800 lb) internally
    Powerplant: 2 × Kuznetsov NK-25 turbofans, 247.9 kN (55,100 lbf) each
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22M#Specifications_(Tu-22M3)

    From the above data, they have similar dimensions, only the TU-22M is larger with WGWs, different engines & their placement, heavier with more/different armament. Tu-22 cockpit:

    Tu-22M cockpit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_3J9eFlXrs

    Similarly,
    the Su-17 is a Soviet variable-sweep wing fighter-bomber developed from the Sukhoi Su-7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-17
    The Tu-134 has the same fuselage as the TU-124, but T-tail, 2 rear mounted uprated engines, with similar but larger overall dimensions:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-134#Specifications_(Tu-134A)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-124#Specifications_(Tu-124V)
    So, the planform (R.: componovka) can be changed both ways w/o any extensive redesign.
    Bottomine: w/o the TU-22, there wouldn't be the TU-22M follow on!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:07 am

    40km altitude & Mach 4.6 terminal dive is the Kh-32 which started development way back due to that issue, got shelved for a long time due to Soviet breakup/economic woes & only restarted 2012 apparently.

    No.

    40km flight altitude was for the Kh-22M and was mainly to evade both Standard and Phoenix. Mach 2.5 was the horizontal flight speed and dive speed was likely mach 3 plus.

    The Kh-32 doubled range and speed, but basically externally looks the same.

    Range for the Kh-22M was reported at between 500 and 600km and the new Kh-32 is supposed to have a range of 1,000km.

    Kh-32 needs the M3M upgrade, T-22M3 can't run it.

    No. AFAIK the Kh-32 was always intended for the Tu-22M3... the Tu-22M3M is basically fitting it with the radar and avionics of the Blackjack... the upgraded electronic warfare systems and navigation systems and communications systems means it no longer needs four crew and will get only two crew.

    In addition the internal bomb bay will be extended to allow larger weapons to be carried internally on a rotary launcher.

    Previously only the Kh-15 Kickback missile would fit in the internal bomb bay, while all the cruise missiles were too long to fit.
    The Tu-22M3M will get an extended bomb bay to allow the Kh-SD and the shortened Kh-50 cruise missiles to be carried.

    For theatre operations where the target is ISIS then a Tu-22M3 is fine with dumb bombs and the Gefest & T aiming system.

    For anti ship use against enemy carriers and landing ships the Tu-22M3M with four Kinzhal missiles would be very potent... especially if it also carries 6 Kh-50 cruise missiles internally on a rotary launcher too.

    Seems the M3M upgrade is based on older M4.
    The quoted number of 30 to be upgraded goes back into the noughties at least.
    Apparently there were 36 combat ready M3s in 2012, 115 airframes total, some articles from then specifically state 36 upgrades planned ie the whole current fleet.
    Also supposedly Kazan plant has 4 incomplete airframes so there could be a possibility of completing them to new standard if they are in good condition.

    There is going to be a gap between now and about 2030 where PAK DA production numbers wont be high enough to justify the withdraw of all Bears and Backfires and the force can just consist of Blackjacks and PAK DAs... so it would be useful to keep them going until at least the start of the 2030s...

    If they are going to get the chop however it must be questioned why they are testing the platform to carry Kinzhals...

    W/o the TU-22, there wouldn't be the TU-22M.

    Yeah.. numbers are interesting... look up the NK-25 engine and the NK-31 engine... they are pretty much the same... but they are not compatible and as Vlad has said it is not economically viable to adapt the Tu-22M3M to use NK-31 engines instead of NK-25s... so they are not the same.

    Suggesting the Tu-22 and Tu-22M are related because their designations are the same is like saying the M16 rifle and the M1 Abrams tank are related... the only difference is a 6....

    There is no relation between an M60 machine gun and an M60 tank either.

    Look at a Tu-22 and a Tu-22M...





    For goodness sake the Tu-22 is round and has external podded engines and three crew and the Tu-22M has flat sides and internal engines with long intakes and four crew...

    Next you will be telling me that the MiG-19 is what the MiG-25 is based on... after all they both have one pilot and two engines each... the MiG-19 has rounded fuselage sides and the MiG-25 has flat boxy sides but they are both interceptors... lets ignore that their performance is totally different too... because the Tu-22 is no where near as good as a Tu-22M in any of its versions...
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    eehnie

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  eehnie on Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:46 pm



    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Frussianplanes.net%2Fid210328&edit-text=
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:38 am

    As the pics above & below show, their progeny/relationship is indisputable, & it's not due to just their designations.

    The earliest TU-22M0 is even more similar to the TU-22:


    Also, they came from the same design bureau in succession, just like with the USA's B-17/-29s & B-47/-52s.

    hoom

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  hoom on Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:45 am

    I think the widely established understanding is the start-point was Tu-22 but almost everything got upgraded/reworked so the end-point Tu-22M has almost nothing common -> its most logical to consider it a completely different plane.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  eehnie on Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:51 am



    In the image again the Tu-22A, Tu-22M and Tu-22-M3. Good to enlarge the image to see the details.

    Awesomely "independent" designs, according to GarryB, reached to the same tail. Very casual being designs of the same bureau, that all the sources recognize as related.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:53 am

    As the pics above & below show, their progeny/relationship is indisputable, & it's not due to just their designations.

    Only to someone who does not know anything about the two designs.... one is three crew in one row and the other is four crew in two sets of side by side seating crew... the engines are totally different the location of the engines is totally different, the wings are different the fuselage shape is different... they don't even have the same ejection seats... the Tu-22 ejects the crew downwards...

    Even the tail gun is different... a single barrel for the Tu-22 and a twin barrel for the Tu-22M.

    They got a similar designation because there was no way the Soviet leadership was going to fund an aircraft for exactly the same role as the Tu-22... even though it had enormously better performance, so they gave it an M to make it appear it was related to get funding.

    In actual fact there is zero compatibility between the two aircraft types.

    THEY ARE NOT RELATED!
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:45 am

    Wings and forward superstructure designs reused, everything else is different. Thats the extent of it.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:00 pm

    THEY ARE NOT RELATED!
    Yes, the same way IL-86/-96, IL-76/-476/-106, SU-27/-34, & MiG-25/-31, AN-124/-225, MiG-21/J-7/-8/-8II, Lavi & J-10 "r not related"!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21#Variants
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-8#Design_and_development
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Lavi
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Development_history

    Similar design features by different designers & manufacturers is 1 thing, but with the same people designing & building planes in succession with similar planforms, dimensions, & functions, it's safe to classify them belonging to 1 family of Tupolev jet bombers, just like wolves, jackals & Tibetan Mastiffs all belong to the Canine family & lynxes, jaguars, leopards, lions & tigers all belong to the Cat family!
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:39 am

    The design progression shown in those photos match exactly what would have been produced in evidence to the Leadership when they checked (if they did) showing that this was clearly a modified design. The Tupolov design team's management could not risk just going to the end result in one step as all hell might have broken loose.

    However, down in the bowels of the building, the drawing office knew exactly what they had to do. Make a brand new aircraft that was, to the untrained eye, plausibly like the original. They succeeded, as this discussion shows.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:54 am


    Note the snow.

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:24 am

    It's not just drawings, they had to test those features in the air before validating them on new variants. The TU-22M is a metamorphosis of the TU-22, plain & simple, just like the U-2 metamorphosed from the  XF-104, the Yak-25RV, etc. metamorphosed from the Yak-25, & Kfir
    metamorphosed from Mirage 5:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2#Lockheed_proposal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-25#Yak-25RV
    http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/yak-25rv.php
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-25#See_also
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Kfir

    to say that they r not related is like saying that bees r not related to flies & humans r not related to apes!

    hoom

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:02 am

    Can we at least agree that Tu-22 was pretty meh in performance & looks while Tu-22M3 is a glorious beast I love you



    affraid

    hoom

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:37 am

    From recollection Tu-22M were included in START/SALT as Strategic due to US insistence, I forget if there was a concession gained for it though.
    Oh it was round the other way  Embarassed
    US insisted they were Strategic, Soviets insisted they were Tactical, compromise: they had refuelling probe removed -> were not counted as Strategic in treaties.
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    dino00

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:40 pm

    New bomber Tupolev-22M3M presented in Kazan

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1017452
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    dino00

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  dino00 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:44 pm

    Russia’s upgraded strategic bomber to get hypersonic missiles

    Russia’s modernized Tu-22M3M strategic bombers will be capable of carrying Kh-32 cruise missiles

    Russia’s modernized Tu-22M3M strategic bombers will be capable of carrying Kh-32 cruise missiles, and also hypersonic weapons, Head of the Federation Council Defense Committee, former Aerospace Force Commander Viktor Bondarev said on Thursday.

    "The range of weapons that can be carried onboard will be expanded: the planes are being adapted for being furnished with modern Kh-32 [air-to-surface] precision cruise missiles and also with hypersonic missiles," the senator said.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1017461



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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:12 pm

    New bomber Tupolev-22M3M presented in Kazan








    Nice looking bird... russia
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    archangelski

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  archangelski on Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:55 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:New bomber Tupolev-22M3M presented in Kazan
    Nice looking bird...  russia

    Without tail gun and provision for IFR probe in nose... but what are those provisional caps on front landing gear ?
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    LMFS

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:16 pm

    Inconsistent relation of updates, some say the range increased and other even that the engines are the NK-32-02. Some pictures show guys working in the cabin and it is still for four crew members... is this maskirovska or simply clueless journos at work? angry
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    Hole

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Hole on Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:22 pm

    I never believed the claims that the crew will be reduced to two.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:36 pm

    Equipment for Tu-160M ​​will be tested at Tu-22M3M


    The commander of long-range aviation of the Russian Federation, Lieutenant-General Sergei Kobylash, said that this would allow checking new systems in the air and, if necessary, correcting shortcomings

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5461563



    The State Duma revealed the characteristics of the modernized Tu-22 M3M with Artificial Intelligence

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201808161421-etfz.htm








    Hole wrote:I never believed the claims that the crew will be reduced to two.

    also true that nobody yet said that places will be used by crew.

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:22 pm

    What the reason for deleting the tailgun? Does it have something better for self defence? Or perhaps it'll always be escorted by fighters?
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    LMFS

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:06 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:What the reason for deleting the tailgun? Does it have something better for self defence? Or perhaps it'll always be escorted by fighters?
    Rather IMO marginal use for the weight and space consumed. The aircraft seems to have won some radome (maybe for ECM) instead.

    Main survivability strategy of the Tu-22M3M should be high speed + range + stand-off weapons. Can hardly see it using the tail gun at all.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:17 pm

    Has the plane won an IFR probe or just the provision for it? I understand it was removed in order to comply with some arms reduction treaty, so this could be a nice wake-up call for the US to start thinking seriously on what side has more to lose in a new arms race, or am I seeing too much in it? 60 Tu-22M3M with inflight refuelling, improved avionics and new weapons is a significant force to consider.

    EDIT: in the link below more than 100 units are mentioned (by Austin)
    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=488182


    Last edited by LMFS on Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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