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    T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

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    Werewolf

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:31 pm

    The only thing you would pray for is if they can achieve some mission kill by killing its firepower, optical capabilities or mobility, but i haven't seen figures so far about the mission kill probability of current rounds.
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    Mike E

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  Mike E on Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:39 am

    Neoprime wrote:I want to know if the current ammo round from a T-90AM/MS 125mm 2a46M-5 were to hit a M1A2 Abrams from the front would it knock it out and visa versa.
    Well, you'd need to provide more details for one to give you a conclusive answer.

    Assuming the MS is firing the most modern round for the 2A46M-5, that being the Svinets-1, there are a few areas where it is certainly capable of penetrating any Abrams variant; ie the the gun mantlet (which is only around 400 mm) and the turret ring, assuming the shot is in the general location of the drivers' hatch. Even the Mango would be capable of penetrating such locations.

    The turret cheeks are undeniably impenetrable from such a round, same with (at least most of) the lower frontal plate. Technically, the lowest section of it does begin the thin, so there is that.

    Generally though, tanks will aim for center mass and not such weakspots.

    I'll upload some images in a bit.
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    Zivo

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  Zivo on Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:15 am

    I never liked the giant "shoot here" sign on the side of western MBT turrets.





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    Mike E

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  Mike E on Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:24 am

    Red line - standard Soviet (ie worse case scenario) APFSDS accuracy whilst stationary; 0.25 mil (this is at 2 km, so 0.5).
    Blue line - the above plus inaccuracy by the stabilizer, I used 0.3 mil as a fire because it may represent bumpy (but not horrible) terrains' effects on a typical Russian system (and that seems about right), so 0.85 meters (at 2km once again) inaccuracy in total.
    Green line - completely horrible (and even unrealistic) levels of stabilizer error; .6 mil alone, for 1.45 meter inaccuracy.
    Orange line - takes into consideration  green & red plus bad barrel flex (assuming this vehicle does not have a MRS), of an additional 1 full mil. For all intensive purposes, this is the absolute worse accuracy you could ever achieve with a modern MBT, if not impossibly bad.



    An average figure would be in between Red and Blue, most likely.

    Also note that the circles are slightly above center mass, this was done for a reason; the bottom section of the tank (including the lower section LFP) is the least likely area to be in LOS and/or hit.

    Area of blue circle is .57 meters squared, just to let you all know.
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    George1

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  George1 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:40 pm

    M1 Abrams vs. T-90: Top US General Admits Russia Has Achieved Tank Parity

    US Army Deputy Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Mike Murray has told a Senate Armed Services subcommittee that the US faces falling behind other countries in the area of tank technology, saying that other nations, including Israel, the UK and particularly Russia are close to catching up. Russian observers ponder the significance of the general's remarks.

    In a speech before Senate defense subcommittee members last week that went largely unreported, Lt. Gen. Murray warned that the US no longer has the edge in tank technology it used to, saying that he could "not say that we have the world class tank that we had for many, many years."

    "I'll be the optimist and say that we're at parity with a lot of different nations," Murray noted. Still, the officer stressed that "our most capable enemies are closing quickly."

    "I think the Abrams is still towards the top of its class in terms of combat systems, in terms of tanks," Murray said. "I think we have parity, I think there is parity out there." Still, he warned that Russia has closed the gap it had with the US since the end of the Cold War. "I think the T-90 is probably pretty close," he told one senator.

    As for Russia's newest generation tank, the Armata, the officer said that he couldn't comment on that, since the tank has not yet been widely fielded.

    Murray emphasized that the M1 Abrams platform, introduced in the 1980s, is reaching the end of its upgrade potential, and suggested that it's time for the US to start development of a new generation tank. "We're just about reaching the limits of what we can do with the Abrams," he said.

    At the same time, the officer said that he was concerned that designers have not offered any fundamental breakthroughs in technology which can be used to build this next generation tank: "What I worry about is, there is nothing on the near-horizon that indicates a fundamental breakthrough in technology where we can come up with a lighter tank. I think we would be mistaken to build another 75-ton tank as long as protection requirements are where they are," Murray stressed.

    Commenting on the unusual frankness of the top US Army official's remarks, RT Russian contributor Nadezhda Alekseeva suggested that "the recognition of its own technological lag in the area of tank building is something new for the US military. For decades, the US had presented the M1 as the best piece of equipment in its class, one no rival could match."

    Today, the journalist writes, "the technological gap has become so obvious that it is impossible to keep silent about it."

    After all, the journalist recalled, in Russia, the idea that the US and its allies are lagging behind Russia's tank industry is nothing new. Two years ago, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin reacted to news that Germany and France were planning to build a new generation of tanks to match the T-14 Armata by pointing out that he estimates other countries to have fallen behind Russia by 15-20 years in this area. Rogozin stressed that playing catchup would be difficult, too, since obviously Russia's tank designers wouldn't just sit idle over the next two decades.

    For his part, independent military analyst Vladimir Tuchkov suggested that frank or not, the purpose of Murray's speech was pretty obvious: to squeeze more money out of the government to develop new heavy armor.

    The problem, he wrote, was that the general did not provide a very convincing argument to Congress about the need to allocate new billions for a new tank, when he himself admitted that US engineers do not have any fresh ideas. "A further increase in the size and weight of the tank would only turn an already unwieldy tank into a slow-moving dinosaur," the journalist noted, driving Murray's point home.

    Looking back on the Abrams' proud history, Alekseeva suggested that in its own time, the M1 truly was a crowning achievement in technical terms, having been released over a decade before the appearance of its Soviet/Russian competitor, the T-90, which entered service only in 1993.

    Chrysler developed the Abrams in 1979, and the formidable machine began to enter service in the US Army in 1980, replacing the aging M60. The tank was considered to have had a successful 'baptism by fire' in the first Gulf War in 1991, easily defeating the tank forces of the Iraqi army, equipped with Soviet monkey model T-55s, T-62s and T-72s, cutting into them like Swiss cheese and suffering almost no casualties from enemy tank fire.

    However, since then, beginning with the second Iraq war and continuing with the Iraqi army's war against Daesh (ISIL/ISIS) terrorists in 2014, the tank began showing a growing number of weak points.

    With this in mind, Tuchkov suggested that the "powerful advertising by General Dynamics Land Systems [the Abrams' current builder] notwithstanding, the number of lost Abrams tanks completely negates the assertion that it is one of the best tanks in the world." In fact, the military writer boldly suggested that the Abrams is no longer even in the top 5, with Israel, Germany, the UK, South Korea and Russia all producing tanks with far superior technical and combat characteristics.

    He recalled, for instance, that the US lost 80 Abrams in Iraq during the 2003 invasion, out of a total of 1,135 machines deployed. "As for tanks disabled by enemy fire and due to serious damage suffered by major components and systems, the picture is just depressing," Tuchkov wrote. In 2006, "the army had to ship 530 tanks –i.e. almost half of those deployed, off for repair in the US."

    "Taking account of the negative experience, designers upgraded the Abrams – strengthening its armor protection, fitting the tanks' rear and sides with dynamic armored plating."

    "But that too didn't help much," the journalist wrote. "According to various sources, between 30 and 47 Abrams have been lost from last autumn to the present in northern Iraq" in the ongoing campaign against Daesh.

    As for Russia and its T-90, it has a lower profile, a higher top speed, a longer operational range, and at 46.5 tons, weighs a full 16.5 tons less than the 63 ton US behemoth. It has partial dynamic protection by default, with no additional skirt installations required, and according to Tuchkov, has demonstrated its prowess in the Syrian conflict.

    The Syrian Army, Tuchkov recalled, has an undisclosed number of T-90As, the first version of the tank which saw mass production. "Since 2014, the Syrian Army has lost only one T-90 to an American TOW missile."

    Just as significant, the observer suggested, was the fact that the loss occurred "not due to the tank's weakness, but due to poor crew training, and their failure to follow safety instructions." Specifically, the onboard Shtora-1 infrared ATGM jamming system was switched off at the time of the militants' attack; the tank's hatches were also open. Abandoned by the Syrian Army, the T-90A has since been captured and used by the militants.

    The one lost tank excepted, Syrian T-90s have been successfully used by the Syrian Army's 4th Mechanized Division, usually on the front lines of the Army's key offensives, including the recent offensive to liberate Aleppo.

    Ultimately, Alekseeva stressed that while military publications in the US and Russia have made comparisons of the T-90 and the M1 ad nauseam, the truth is that "it's probably impossible to speak of either tank's unquestionable superiority over the other: both tanks belong to roughly the same generation, and both have implemented the best technologies available in their time…Rather, the real cause for concern for the US military is the T-14 Armata, Russia's latest main battle tank."

    That tank, developed in the late 2000s by Uralvagonzavod, and starting mass production beginning in 2015, is the real concern for Lt. Gen. Murray and the US Army, the journalist noted.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201703261051984261-us-general-t90-vs-abrams/


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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:57 am

    George1 wrote:M1 Abrams vs. T-90: Top US General Admits Russia Has Achieved Tank Parity

    US Army Deputy Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Mike Murray has told a Senate Armed Services subcommittee that the US faces falling behind other countries in the area of tank technology, saying that other nations, including Israel, the UK and particularly Russia are close to catching up. Russian observers ponder the significance of the general's remarks.

    In a speech before Senate defense subcommittee members last week that went largely unreported, Lt. Gen. Murray warned that the US no longer has the edge in tank technology it used to, saying that he could "not say that we have the world class tank that we had for many, many years."

    "I'll be the optimist and say that we're at parity with a lot of different nations," Murray noted. Still, the officer stressed that "our most capable enemies are closing quickly."

    "I think the Abrams is still towards the top of its class in terms of combat systems, in terms of tanks," Murray said. "I think we have parity, I think there is parity out there." Still, he warned that Russia has closed the gap it had with the US since the end of the Cold War. "I think the T-90 is probably pretty close," he told one senator.

    As for Russia's newest generation tank, the Armata, the officer said that he couldn't comment on that, since the tank has not yet been widely fielded.

    Murray emphasized that the M1 Abrams platform, introduced in the 1980s, is reaching the end of its upgrade potential, and suggested that it's time for the US to start development of a new generation tank. "We're just about reaching the limits of what we can do with the Abrams," he said.

    At the same time, the officer said that he was concerned that designers have not offered any fundamental breakthroughs in technology which can be used to build this next generation tank: "What I worry about is, there is nothing on the near-horizon that indicates a fundamental breakthrough in technology where we can come up with a lighter tank. I think we would be mistaken to build another 75-ton tank as long as  protection requirements are where they are," Murray stressed.

    Commenting on the unusual frankness of the top US Army official's remarks, RT Russian contributor Nadezhda Alekseeva suggested that "the recognition of its own technological lag in the area of tank building is something new for the US military. For decades, the US had presented the M1 as the best piece of equipment in its class, one no rival could match."

    Today, the journalist writes, "the technological gap has become so obvious that it is impossible to keep silent about it."

    After all, the journalist recalled, in Russia, the idea that the US and its allies are lagging behind Russia's tank industry is nothing new. Two years ago, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin reacted to news that Germany and France were planning to build a new generation of tanks to match the T-14 Armata by pointing out that he estimates other countries to have fallen behind Russia by 15-20 years in this area. Rogozin stressed that playing catchup would be difficult, too, since obviously Russia's tank designers wouldn't just sit idle over the next two decades.

    For his part, independent military analyst Vladimir Tuchkov suggested that frank or not, the purpose of Murray's speech was pretty obvious: to squeeze more money out of the government to develop new heavy armor.

    The problem, he wrote, was that the general did not provide a very convincing argument to Congress about the need to allocate new billions for a new tank, when he himself admitted that US engineers do not have any fresh ideas. "A further increase in the size and weight of the tank would only turn an already unwieldy tank into a slow-moving dinosaur," the journalist noted, driving Murray's point home.

    Looking back on the Abrams' proud history, Alekseeva suggested that in its own time, the M1 truly was a crowning achievement in technical terms, having been released over a decade before the appearance of its Soviet/Russian competitor, the T-90, which entered service only in 1993.

    Chrysler developed the Abrams in 1979, and the formidable machine began to enter service in the US Army in 1980, replacing the aging M60. The tank was considered to have had a successful 'baptism by fire' in the first Gulf War in 1991, easily defeating the tank forces of the Iraqi army, equipped with Soviet monkey model T-55s, T-62s and T-72s, cutting into them like Swiss cheese and suffering almost no casualties from enemy tank fire.

    However, since then, beginning with the second Iraq war and continuing with the Iraqi army's war against Daesh (ISIL/ISIS) terrorists in 2014, the tank began showing a growing number of weak points.

    With this in mind, Tuchkov suggested that the "powerful advertising by General Dynamics Land Systems [the Abrams' current builder] notwithstanding, the number of lost Abrams tanks completely negates the assertion that it is one of the best tanks in the world." In fact, the military writer boldly suggested that the Abrams is no longer even in the top 5, with Israel, Germany, the UK, South Korea and Russia all producing tanks with far superior technical and combat characteristics.

    He recalled, for instance, that the US lost 80 Abrams in Iraq during the 2003 invasion, out of a total of 1,135 machines deployed. "As for tanks disabled by enemy fire and due to serious damage suffered by major components and systems, the picture is just depressing," Tuchkov wrote. In 2006, "the army had to ship 530 tanks –i.e. almost half of those deployed, off for repair in the US."

    "Taking account of the negative experience, designers upgraded the Abrams – strengthening its armor protection, fitting the tanks' rear and sides with dynamic armored plating."

    "But that too didn't help much," the journalist wrote. "According to various sources, between 30 and 47 Abrams have been lost from last autumn to the present in northern Iraq" in the ongoing campaign against Daesh.

    As for Russia and its T-90, it has a lower profile, a higher top speed, a longer operational range, and at 46.5 tons, weighs a full 16.5 tons less than the 63 ton US behemoth. It has partial dynamic protection by default, with no additional skirt installations required, and according to Tuchkov, has demonstrated its prowess in the Syrian conflict.

    The Syrian Army, Tuchkov recalled, has an undisclosed number of T-90As, the first version of the tank which saw mass production. "Since 2014, the Syrian Army has lost only one T-90 to an American TOW missile."

    Just as significant, the observer suggested, was the fact that the loss occurred "not due to the tank's weakness, but due to poor crew training, and their failure to follow safety instructions." Specifically, the onboard Shtora-1 infrared ATGM jamming system was switched off at the time of the militants' attack; the tank's hatches were also open. Abandoned by the Syrian Army, the T-90A has since been captured and used by the militants.

    The one lost tank excepted, Syrian T-90s have been successfully used by the Syrian Army's 4th Mechanized Division, usually on the front lines of the Army's key offensives, including the recent offensive to liberate Aleppo.

    Ultimately, Alekseeva stressed that while military publications in the US and Russia have made comparisons of the T-90 and the M1 ad nauseam, the truth is that "it's probably impossible to speak of either tank's unquestionable superiority over the other: both tanks belong to roughly the same generation, and both have implemented the best technologies available in their time…Rather, the real cause for concern for the US military is the T-14 Armata, Russia's latest main battle tank."

    That tank, developed in the late 2000s by Uralvagonzavod, and starting mass production beginning in 2015, is the real concern for Lt. Gen. Murray and the US Army, the journalist noted.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201703261051984261-us-general-t90-vs-abrams/

    Please someone (kvs, GarryB, KoTeMoRe) respond to this laughable statement, I simply don't have the time to respond in kind.
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    GarryB

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:36 am

    Well Russia achieving "parity" with a smaller, lighter, cheaper vehicle is very interesting... Smile

    More interesting is that the Abrams... much like the WWII Mustang, really didn't become world class till foreign countries got involved... in the case of the Mustang it needed a British Rolls Royce engine to get the range and performance needed to make it good enough.

    For the Abrams it was the British armour and at first a British gun in the form of the trusty 105mm rifled, but production tanks had the smoothbore 120mm German gun... a gun that copied the idea of a smoothbore main gun from the 115mm smoothbore gun of the Soviet T-62...

    I see now they even fit a Belgian 7.62mm coaxial MG too...


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    Tyranus

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  Tyranus on Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:26 pm

    M1a2 need's a diesel engine, a simple auto loader and a rcws+laser and radar warning sensor to be world class.
    As the combat in Yemen/Saudi/Iraq has shown the m1a2 has no atgm defense for long term engagements, hell why not add trophy system too. music
    1 rpg to the bustle and it cook's good and yet still no cage armor is their.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:30 am

    Tyranus wrote:M1a2 need's a diesel engine, a simple auto loader and a rcws+laser and radar warning sensor to be world class.
    As the combat in Yemen/Saudi/Iraq has shown the m1a2 has no atgm defense for long term engagements, hell why not add trophy system too. music
    1 rpg to the bustle and it cook's good and yet still no cage armor is their.

    The Exceptionalists will be loathe to do any of the above as it would be tantamount to admitting that they are WRONG and that Russia is right.  They have been crowing for decades about the alleged Abrams "invincibility" based on its slaughter of clapped-out monkey-model T-72s in Iraq, but eventually all bullshit gets sniffed out, and Iraqi experience against ISIS has greatly diminished their self-righteous halo....

    While I'm at it, add the Krauts to the list as well. The sight of so many dead and burning Turdkish Leopards killed by Russian ATGMs has brought a flood of tears to the eyes of Uh'Murikkkaz Germanic lackeys.... and about time to.
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    kvs

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    Re: T-90 vs M1A1/2 comparison

    Post  kvs on Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:55 am

    Comparing the Abrams to the T-90 is comparing apples to oranges. That is not to say that the T-90 fails to outclass the Abrams
    pork barrel dinosaur. And this US general appears to be an utter idiot. No new ideas? Really now. The T-14 is the first Russian tank
    in the Abrams size category but is much lighter. I doubt the under 50 tons figure being bandied about, but it is under 60 tons for sure
    (so maybe around 55 tons and I know the turret saves a lot of weight). Russia has shown how to do the Abrams right and that is not
    to build a rolling disco hall turret to accommodate the crew in luxury like some 1970s US "boat" car. The T-14 can field a 152 mm
    canon, the Abrams could never hope to do so.

    I still don't understand the philosophy of no active protection on the Abrams. No amount of DU can compensate for good active
    protection. And by definition the amount of DU the Abrams can use is very limited unless they want to park it permanently on
    display like the Czar Canon.

    https://www.dodbuzz.com/2017/02/28/army-give-m1-tank-new-ammo-active-protection-system/

    It seems someone in Exceptionalistan has smelled the coffee. Maybe.

    Sputnik is a renamed English RIAN and staffed by the same idiots who use NATO anti-Russian propaganda language in the articles
    as if they were some NATO sponsored NGO. For example, the Pavlovian phrase with no actual meaning: "pro-Kremlin parties" to
    describe the actual Russian political opposition while using "opposition movements" for lunatic fringe and 5th column elements.
    This piece is like cake and excrement put in a blender for the ultimate in taste.

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