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    Georgia NATO/US Relations

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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:48 pm

    The Western Europeans consider them not worthy of their company & didn't want to make any accommodations with Russia.

    That is as evident in last decades false, both in regards to NATO questions and in general, culturally.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93NATO_relations

    ESPECIALY Western Europeans have no issue with Russian company whatsoever. In particular French and Germans, but in large the entire Western continent.

    and btw, cultural resentment goes, if anything, both ways. See daily Russian anti-West PR. It's almost USSR level. If you live in Germany, there is literaly no PR against Russia in the media unless something dramatic happens and even in that case, Russia is never mentioned as enemy, but opposition to US / coalition efforts.

    If we were to talk about Eastern European nations - Russian relations, than yes, some countries like Poland have slightly greater resentment. But then again, Polish did even suggest potential Russian NATO membership at some point.

    Medieval religious war is starting in Ukraine: "We will never agree to change the sacred canonical borders of our Church, for Kiev is the spiritual cradle of holy Russia, like Mtskheta for Georgia or Kosovo for Serbia," Patriarch Kirill of Moscow said in 2016. https://x-true.info/74326-rekomenduju-ukraincam-nachat-srochnuju-jevakuaciju.html
    Why Putin does not interfere with the West burial of Ukraine

    Two guys get mugged and you instantly subscribe to Russian "Holy War" PR. Tells me how credible your views are. While you're at it, why not also support the idea to "take Kiev back" since it's allegedly the "spiritual cradle of Holy Russia", a country so enormously religious only 47% are Christians. That's how much of a F the population gives.  
    Mate .... you really need to grasp the concept of federations and what the Kievan Rus actualy were before subscribing to any of those silly notions of Russia holding claim to anything beyond their own damn borders.

    Pl. use spell check before posting

    No !  

    130 nationalities


    What "130" nationalitis ? you make no sense.

    We are talking about the idea of 3 countries creating a union.  

    can't be unified

    Yes they can, very cosily even, if the people agreed.

    and apparently you've never heard of either the history of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire, nor of Russia, China and a score of other countries. Those unions create and fall apart much quicker than they did back then.

    much less strong enough to be a threat to Russia.

    There we have it again. Thinking only in threats  Wink

    But aligning with Russia's historical adversaries, NATO member Turkey among them, may doom Georgia to be a target & permanent backwater.

    Georgia needs neither Turkey nor NATO to be a threat to accomodate base Russian paranoia as evident in the last 28 years.

    Russia is an agenda and expansion driven near super powerful nation,

    lost control of the 14 Soviet republics

    That didn't belong to them in the first place. Never forget to point that out as well Smile

    What isolation of Russia r u talking about?http://www.ng.ru/economics/2018-10-03/4_7324_opek.html
    Russia-India-China triangle is forming: https://vz.ru/politics/2018/10/3/944453.print.html
    India isn't going to turn her back at Russia even though she is a member of the British Commonwealth & has good relations with the USA. It & China r the 2 most populous nations: Iran, Pakistan, Egypt  & Turkey also buy Russian arms, etc. http://www.egypttoday.com/Article/1/58433/Sisi-to-visit-Russia-current-month
    http://www.kazakh-zerno.kz/novosti/mirovoj-rynok-selskogo-khozyajstva-i-prodovolstviya/248490-s-nachala-2018-19-selkhozgoda-rossiya-eksportirovala-v-egipet-2-215-mln-tonn-zerna

    That's hilarious. So for the sheer sake of arguing with me, you are dismissing the greatest Russian pretext of all. lol1

    Of course it's complete nonsense. It's never been so in the first place !

    They try to protect what they have in their geographical setting; the Caucasus is a natural wall between Black & Caspian Seas (where Volga & Don flow into) guarding the S. Russia.

    The Caucaus is not a "wall" .... it's a region covering 4 souvereign countries. Russia, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.

    ..another overreaching super powerful nation, that happens to be far more powerful on the political spectrum due to Russia's consistently misguided and impotent foreign policy, not just in regards to its neighbors but literally everyone they try to negotiate with. Their governments and rulers only think in leverages and threats thus far, since the end of WW2. So they go the thug route instead, and isolate themselves.

    U just perfectly described the USA & UK!

    I give you the UK. They could be greater scumbacks than both combined in the past if they chose to.

    But US, No. If you think that about the US, than frankly you are either not adequately informed about the past 70 years historical events or limited in the understanding of their foreign policy. The US did exactly the opposite of Russia in terms of influence and expansion as in they attracted with protection, prospect and funding opposite to just force projection, intimidation, bribery, oppression and violence. For the most part that is. I'm not saying USA is right, Russia is wrong. I'm pointing out the fact they have been thus far, far more successful with their tactics than Russia. Latter on the other hand, has been ever since discrediting itself. The US has lost popularity in that regard due to recent events especialy with the huge mess in the Middle East, but even despite that, little has changed.
    The USA's successful PR, funding, support and otherwise emphatic 'big brother' act crafted scores of strategicaly and economicaly valuable partners such as Japan, South Korea, India, the entirety of Europe, Israel and many others.

    In the end twist it as much as you like, but Russia is more upset about the fact the USA gets aways with it's expansionist policy more than itself. It couldn't care less about the misery such policy causes to others.

    Russia could have lifted imaginary US "isolation" a LONG TIME ago, without any form of use of force whatsoever, before it ever came down to the ever regressive situation since 2008. But it chose a different path, a stubborn, resenting path.

    It's more rational path than what u r suggesting, i.e. just meekly lying down under Uncle Sam & spreading her legs to be raped, figuratively speaking!

    I am not suggesting or implying anything of the like.

    If that's the only thing what they see, such nonsensical extremes than frankly I see no hope for Russia as credible nation.

    Then, they should really see to it, to have a more powerful leader and nation.

    No, I do not consider nonsensical force projection of hundreds of thousands of troops, powerful. It virtualy reeks of weakness in virtualy every other area but show of force. I call it desperate.

    The West sees itself morally & economically superior

    Cry my a damn river.
    I don't see any European countries invade or physicaly bully their smaller neighbours into submission because they have a misguided primitive perception of "influence spheres", and grab lands at will.

    But Russia, among others, has another idea!

    Like invading neighbours. Yay !

    Speaking of which

    You are getting in a historical argument with a guy who studied WW2 ? oh this is gonna be fun.

    how did those Georgians benefited from siding with them?

    I don't know. How did the other Ostlegionen troops made of Russians ( 300.000 ), Ukrainians ( 180.000 ), Azerbaijanis ( 70.000 ) and Armenians ( 33.000 ) and their Eastern allies Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians a score of other peoples and nations <- all of who enlisted in much greater numbers to the Nazi cause than Georgians benefit from it ? probably badly .... mostly because the Soviets killed them and labored them to death when they got ransfered back by the Allies.

    Only the ppl who actualy served in the Abwehr and some sabotage units like Brandenburgers were truly devoted fascists, and those people were mostly immigrants. We are talking about like maybe a few hundred. The vast majority of Georgians were captured Soviet troops like all the other captured Soviet troops who fought for Germany. They were considered unrealiable by the Germans because many switched sides again, so they were transferred all the way to France. One of them joined the French resistance and when he returned to Georgia former resistance members had to persuade Soviet authorities not to hang him.

    Being faced with an impossible choice between Hitler and Stalin's regime, members of the Georgian Legion often suffered tragic fates. Notably, during the Georgian uprising on Texel, hundreds of Georgians were killed by the Nazis. Those who "survived" were on Moscow's orders forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union, only to end up perishing in Stalin's Gulags.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgische_Legion_(1941%E2%80%9345)

    It is tragic indeed. They defended the Axis lines at Utah beach and then that Texel story. At least they went down fighting against the Nazis in the end. They were both screwed by the Nazis and the Soviets. So really it made no difference. Almost half the Georgians fighting for the Soviet survival didn't return either.

    So the only realy legit question is, how did WW2 benefit anyone ? not really. It was an ugly brutal and disgusting mess for anyone involved.

    Georgians were fighting each other .... as they do now in Donbass.

    Did I miss something or is this more alternate history ?

    If there's another war after that between the West & Russia, the same thing will happen again.

    What will happen is a bunch of giant fireballs followed by beautiful mushrooms and snowfall in summer.

    The videos of Georgians in Donbass I posted show fighters, not instructors.

    Nobody ever denied Georgians are fighting in Donbass. There's been an outcry in Georgia because of that. People don't actualy support it. Otherwise there would have been hundreds of volunteers.

    Among those people, very few are actualy military, and even fewer are what you could consider high military caliber, maybe 1 or two, like Kurasbediani.

    What you talk of is absolutly insignificant in weight. Georgia is neither sending officaly nor inofficialy ppl to Ukraine to fight there.

    Their Ukrainian citizenship, if any, is only skin deep & a legal gimmick to win their loyalty.

    ... and ? You are trying to make an elephant out of nothingness. You'd have a point if it were actual Georgian servicemen. But they aren't.

    But Kiev can revoke it at any time, just like what happened to Mr. Saakashvili.

    Of course they can.

    So ?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:13 am

    ESPECIALY Western Europeans have no issue with Russian company whatsoever.
    Back in 2000 their elites vetoed RF joining NATO, & that's what I tried to say.
    Two guys get mugged and you instantly subscribe to Russian "Holy War" PR.
    It's not a case of simple mugging, & it's only a beginning!
    What "130" nationalitis ? you make no sense. We are talking about the idea of 3 countries creating a union.
    I've been to all 3, & doubt it's possible at all.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_of_the_Caucasus
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Caucasian-languages
    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/georgia/articles/16-incredible-facts-about-the-languages-of-the-caucasus/

    Central Americans & some S. Americans were united after gaining independence from Spain but split, even though they r culturally closer than people of Transcaucasia. The same with Central Asian Stans- Turkestan was split even under the USSR into several republics, & they had border clashes, much less able to unite after 1991.
    Those unions create and fall apart much quicker than they did back then. ..Thinking only in threats
    Exactly! Russia knows this, & every state has a threat matrix to formulate its foreign & defense policies.
    Georgia needs neither Turkey nor NATO to be a threat to accomodate base Russian paranoia as evident in the last 28 years.

    No, if they were paranoid, they would've taken Tbilisi in 2008 & Kiev in 2014. But they didn't get caught in those traps the West prepared for them, as the article I posted explained.
    That didn't belong to them in the first place.
    U remind me of 1 Native American I talked that doesn't accept the idea of land ownership & the fact that the Russians once owned Alaska. But de-facto & de-jure they did! That's a typical provincial mentality! Moscow, the capital of RSFSR & USSR ruled all the other 14 capitals, therefore, Russia is now the legal inheritor of USSR. In it's hymn it said:
    An unbreakable union of free republics,
    The Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
    Long live the creation of the will of the people,
    The united, mighty Soviet Union
    !
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Anthem_of_the_Soviet_Union#Original_lyrics
    ..for the sheer sake of arguing with me, you are dismissing the greatest Russian pretext of all.
    What pretext? Stop calling black white! Russia is far from isolated; it's the US under Trump that is becoming so.
    The Caucasus is not a "wall" .... it's a region covering 4 sovereign countries. Russia, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.
    It is a de-facto wall, with few strategic roads across it, & almost as tall as the Alps in some places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains
    The US did exactly the opposite of Russia in terms of influence and expansion as in they attracted with protection,..
    It's called "protection racket". Their MIC & other businesses benefit from it.
    ..they have been thus far, far more successful with their tactics than Russia. Latter on the other hand, has been ever since discrediting itself. The US has lost popularity in that regard due to recent events especialy with the huge mess in the Middle East, but even despite that, little has changed.
    The USA's successful PR, funding, support and otherwise emphatic 'big brother' act crafted scores of strategicaly and economicaly valuable partners such as Japan, South Korea, India, the entirety of Europe, Israel and many others. But now the trade wars they started will flush that success down the drain.
    but Russia is more upset about the fact the USA gets aways with it's expansionist policy more than itself.
    No, again u mispercieve them! They learned from USSR's & others mistakes in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Somalia, Libya & Iraq & try to avoid repeating them.
    I don't see any European countries invade or physicaly bully their smaller neighbours into submission because they have a misguided primitive perception of "influence spheres", and grab lands at will.
    It's called "neocolonialism": after they fleeced their colonies they live on the residual income
    & intervene there with IMF, mercenaries & military force to maintain the borders & the status quo they imposed there. A case in point: Diego Garcia. The US could care less about all the islanders the UK had deported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia#Expulsion_of_1971

    The US also supported the French in Indochina before its own disastrous involvement there.
    Like invading neighbors.
    As a reaction to NATO expansion, artillery bombardments, & ethnic violence on its artificial borders drawn by Stalin & Beria.
    How did the other Ostlegionen troops made of Russians ( 300.000 ), Ukrainians ( 180.000 ), Azerbaijanis ( 70.000 ) and Armenians ( 33.000 ) and their Eastern allies Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians a score of other peoples and nations <- all of who enlisted in much greater numbers to the Nazi cause than Georgians benefit from it?
    But we talking about Georgians here.
    The vast majority of Georgians were captured Soviet troops like all the other captured Soviet troops who fought for Germany.
    But they all volunteered to fight against Stalin, just like those others u mentioned.
    Did I miss something or is this more alternate history?
    If there r Ukrainian & Russian Georgians in Donbass, just like Belorussians, Chechens & Russians, they may kill each other there. It's the reality of war!
    What will happen is a bunch of giant fireballs followed by beautiful mushrooms and snowfall in summer.
    Not necessarily. Tactical nukes won't  
    produce nuclear winter. In any case, they hybrid war has already been going on ever since 1991.
    Georgia is neither sending officially nor unofficially ppl to Ukraine to fight there.
    But they go there on their own free will to avenge the losses of 2008 & help the Kiev regime against Russia. Tbilisi should announce an amnesty for those who return, prosecute those who don't, & arrest those who they know plan to go there. Then they can wash their hands & be clean in this.
    You'd have a point if it were actual Georgian servicemen. But they aren't.
    Regardless, they r of military age, served in the army/police &/ fought in other conflicts before, & getting paid for it. U r being selective: Russia also claims that her servicemen r not in Donbass, but for different reasons, I, u, & many others don't buy that. So, if u call all those people invaders, then Georgians there r also invaders, regardless of their legal status in Georgia.
    Of course they can.
    And they will do so, as soon it become expedient, as a gratitude for being expendable cannon fodder.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:17 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Elites

    Elites make less than 1%. Culturaly and socialy Russians are accepted without any issues whatsoever in all of Europe. Particularily Germany, France, Greece etc.

    It's not a case of simple mugging, & it's only a beginning!

    Crusade against the Russian Church ..... right.  Rolling Eyes

    I've been to all 3, & doubt it's possible at all.

    So you mean ethnic groups. Russia has over 160 ethnic groups not Caucasus. The entirety of the Caucasus region is home to no more than 50 ethnic groups. If we reduce it to the South Caucasus it are dramaticaly less. The vast majority would strictly be Georgian, Armenian and Azeri still. Especialy the latter two have kept it homogenous due to ethnic conflicts. Georgia is the the only realy ethnicaly diverse nation of the three. I don't see a greater issue there than in Russia.

    Far less likely things have happened in many other countries.

    When there is talk of a Union, it doesn't mean merging all three countries, their beliefs, religions and traditions togheter and redrawing all borders. That's a work of fiction. The peoples wouldn't accept that willingly anyway.
    It is about the hypothetical idea of something like a strong trade, economic and defence union. That concept has been brought up many times and also briefly achieved in 1918 with the short lived Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic. However it fell apart due to the ongoing war with the Ottomans, general turmoil of WW1 and individual territorial disputes. It was tried under very unfavorable and virtualy impossible circumstances. Just the fact all 3 countries even came togheter to suggest and form it, is a small miracle in itself.

    So, the general idea is anything but far fetched. Especialy in the 21st century it can be done. But in order to succeed all conflicts need to cease. All sides need to burry the hatchet. I won't go further than this, because honestly I fear giving the Russian gov ideas on how to further undermine dialogue ....  Rolling Eyes

    Central Americans & some S. Americans were united after gaining independence from Spain but split, even though they r culturally closer than people of Transcaucasia. The same with Central Asian Stans- Turkestan was split even under the USSR into several republics, & they had border clashes, much less able to unite after 1991.

    There are always examples to counter examples. But fact is, far less likely things have happened. Empires consisting of 500 autonomous states with their own currency and measurement units, and traditions were merged to one nation .... whole countries weare formed out of nothing.

    Maybe it won't happen at all. But impossible, it is not.

    Exactly! Russia knows this, & every state has a threat matrix to formulate its foreign & defense policies.


    It wouldn't be a greater threat than having NATO bases in the South Caucasus.

    No, if they were paranoid, they would've taken Tbilisi in 2008 & Kiev in 2014. But they didn't get caught in those traps the West prepared for them, as the article I posted explained.

    They are paranoid and they don't take entire countries because they don't need to. That article is flawed even in basic assessment of reality. For Russia it was completly enough what they achieved in Abkhazia setting a basis for long term instability consciously because they couldn't cope with the loss, wanted to maintain a foothold and permanent presence in their "sphere of influence" and unconsciously they effectively eliminating any prospects for Georgia to join either NATO or the EU, which back then was not even in the minds of anyone in Georgia, let alone dreamt about.

    Taking Tbilisi in 2008 would have been dumbest political move Russia could have done in that situation, and frankly part of me wished they had.

    Trying to take Kiev and causing a Russo-Ukrainian war would have been an even greater and a very costly stupidity.

    Both events would have permanently crippled Russia's credibility on the world stage among other things.

    But de-facto & de-jure they did!

    de-facto as in physicaly maybe, but 'de-jure' ? are you really trying to fiddle some kind of ..... legitimacy .... in there ? wow mate. ^^
    Especialy as a jurist it's giving me headaches.
    They forcefully took and incorporated countries that didn't belong to them and never consented with it. Any legitimacy of such a claim is nonexistent. Ergo there hasn't been any "loss" to cry after, so stop repeating the same nonsense their delusioned hardcore communists use to sprout. USSR is history.

    What pretext? Stop calling black white! Russia is far from isolated;

    The very pretext they've been using themselves for years, not me  Wink you just need to glance at every single forum on the internet on that topic.

    I don't agree with it, at all. Don't call me out ^^

    it's the US under Trump that is becoming so.

    Not really.

    It is a de-facto wall, with few strategic roads across it, & almost as tall as the Alps in some places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains

    Physical wall aka mountains and symbolic wall aka strategic buffer are two entirely different things, and I assumed you meant latter.

    It's called "protection racket". Their MIC & other businesses benefit from it.

    So do their partners benefit from it more than being under Russian influence. That's just an observable fact.

    No, again u mispercieve them! They learned from USSR's & others mistakes in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Somalia, Libya & Iraq & try to avoid repeating them.

    Yeah. They learned how to prep and fight wars better and more carefully. Preferably many years before potential escalation is required.

    It's called "neocolonialism": after they fleeced their colonies they live on the residual income

    You imply it is any different with Russia. Since the world is connected it will always be so as long as single nations exist with power difference and economic weight. But in Europe it is a give and take even if varying and there are virtualy no borders for Europeans. You can't and won't get any of those benefits remotely in that scale with Russia in its current state.

    & intervene there with IMF, mercenaries & military force to maintain the borders & the status quo they imposed there.


    Oh you mean like Russia.

    As a reaction to NATO expansion, artillery bombardments

    There was no "NATO expansion" in 1991, only artificial sessession instigated by Russia.

    Please don't talk of "bombardments" when the GAF responded primarily to those in 08 and especialy not knowing Russia's own background with fighting sessessions and insurgencies.

    on its artificial borders drawn by Stalin & Beria.

    Oh look, another geography expert  lol1 how about historical facts for a change ?

    I assume you are implying that Georgia was made smaller during the USSR, because that's the only thing that happened. Those borders ( or rather extended ) exsted before either of them were even born. The Georgian Democratic Republic was larger and the Georgia as part of the Russian Empire even larger, though periodicaly the Batumi province switched hands due to wars with the Ottomans.

    But we talking about Georgians here.

    and you were implying Georgian collaboration with Nazis. Didn't work out so well now did it ? Wink

    But they all volunteered to fight against Stalin, just like those others u mentioned.

    Yes, it was either labor to death or fight on our side

    .... and ?

    If there r Ukrainian & Russian Georgians in Donbass, just like Belorussians, Chechens & Russians, they may kill each other there. It's the reality of war!

    Okay .... and ? they chose to. It's their business.

    In any case, they hybrid war has already been going on ever since 1991.

    Hybrid war is not to even slightly be compared to what happens if both sides or one side, went full retard.

    But they go there on their own free will to avenge the losses of 2008 & help the Kiev regime against Russia.

    Yet again .... so ?

    It's their business their personal fight. So do Russians and many others.

    Ofc its tragic. People die. Other than that, don't see where you're getting with this.

    Tbilisi should announce an amnesty for those who return, prosecute those who don't, & arrest those who they know plan to go there. Then they can wash their hands & be clean in this.

    Tbilisi has no dirty hands in that business to clean in the first place. Just the suggestion of that is incredibly impertinent.

    Those people got their citizenships revoked, they will stay there. Are Russian mercenaries and volunteers being prosecuted for attacking Ukraine ?

    Tss .... people.

    Regardless, they r of military age, served in the army/police &/ fought in other conflicts before, & getting paid for it. U r being selective:


    Completly irrelevant. Your point was that Georgia sends people. That was refuted. Now you are being desperate in your search to find something to blame.

    Russia also claims that her servicemen r not in Donbass, but for different reasons, I, u, & many others don't buy that.


    Please have some self respect. You know as well as everyone else who puts up a stubborn but silly ah act, that nothing is done without Kremlin's approval, direct planning and inteference. Especialy not in 2014.

    Only now you can claim that the separatists have more or less wide autonomy in their decisions ( if at all ) unless something meaningful needs to happen.

    So, if u call all those people invaders, then Georgians there r also invaders, regardless of their legal status in Georgia.

    Except the Georgians aren't invading Ukraine like the Russians. They are defending their homes there in the Ukrainian army.

    And they will do so, as soon it become expedient, as a gratitude for being expendable cannon fodder.
    [/quote]

    and Why exactly does that matter to you ? they chose it, they know the risk. Nontheless they take it because they think they fight for the right thing. Like I said, their decision. Has nothing to do with Georgia whatsoever.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:04 am

    Elites make less than 1%. Culturaly and socialy Russians are accepted without any issues whatsoever in all of Europe. Particularily Germany, France, Greece etc.
    The elites have the final word, not rank & file citizens.
    As an old Chinese saying states: "Those who work with their hands r ruled; those who work with their heads rule."
    Crusade against the Russian Church ..... right.
    No, it's an internal conflict supported from abroad, on both sides, but started by Kiev.
    '' This is a pledge of unity '': the patriarch of Georgia supported Ukraine on its way to autocephaly https://www.obozrevatel.com/society/eto-zalog-edinstva-patriarh-gruzii-podderzhal-ukrainu-na-puti-k-avtokefalii.htm

    The night of Bartholomew. Tomos will be given tomorrow and what will happen after that
    https://strana.ua/articles/analysis/165059-noch-varfolomeja-dadut-li-zavtra-tomos-ukraine-i-chto-posle-etoho-budet.html

    Just the fact all 3 countries even came togheter to suggest and form it, is a small miracle in itself.
    That's why it won't happen in our lifetime, if at all.
    It wouldn't be a greater threat than having NATO bases in the South Caucasus.
    That union would have been a "major non-NATO ally" like Japan, Australia, Sweden & Finland now at best or NATO member at worst. Russia is interested in peace between the Azeris & Armenians; that 's why she tries to have good relations with both. But Georgia is too proud of itself & was counting on US/NATO support in 2008.
    ..eliminating any prospects for Georgia to join either NATO or the EU, which back then was not even in the minds of anyone in Georgia, let alone dreamt about.
    But by their belligerence, Georgians crossed the line, which Russia wasn't going to tolerate. Escalating that frozen conflict by associating with NATO will not benefit Georgia. Starting wars is easy; finishing them isn't, but Russia is very good at it!
    They forcefully took and incorporated countries that didn't belong to them and never consented with it. Any legitimacy of such a claim is nonexistent.
    That's besides the point; they controlled them as a result of wars.
    Rhetorical questions: did Abkhazians, Armenians & Greeks consent to be part of Georgia & Ottoman Turkey, respectively? Did Azeris consent to be part of Persia/Iran? Did Rusyns in what is now W. Ukraine consent to be part of Austria-Hungary? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns
    Did Mongols, Han Chinese, Tibetans & Koreans consent to be part of the Manchurian Ching Empire? Did the Kurds consent to be part of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, & Syria? The above list can be even longer.
    Not really.
    That's in ur judgement.
    So do their partners benefit from it more than being under Russian influence. That's just an observable fact.
    Maybe so, but in the long run they'll go their own way, & Georgia isn't guaranteed prosperity by associating with the West. In the '70s & '80s Iran & Iraq did; Yugoslavia was outside of the Moscow control, but we all know what happened to them. Now the Serbs r asking Russia for help.
    You can't and won't get any of those benefits remotely in that scale with Russia in its current state.
    Like those Ukrainians doing jobs in Poland & Slovakia that the locals won't take.  
    Oh you mean like Russia.
    Russia doesn't have the IMF-like body. Under Lenin, Stalin & Khrushchev, lands were given to Ukraine that didn't belong to it. Now this dog is biting the hand that once fed it, & been sending arms & allowing fighters go to Chechnya & Georgia before & during 2008 war that were used against the Ossetians & the Russians, civilians & military!
    There was no "NATO expansion" in 1991, only artificial sessession instigated by Russia.
    There was going to be to the West of the RF border, eventually ringing it to the south, & the KGB/SVR expected the post-Soviet vacuum to be filled by it.
    These US-NATO bases provide instability and insecurity rather than peace. Tensions abound around them. Threats emanate from their presence.
    The Georgian Democratic Republic was larger and the Georgia as part of the Russian Empire even larger,..
    Facing permanent internal and external problems, the young state was unable to withstand invasion by the Russian SFSR Red Armies, and collapsed between February and March 1921 to become a Soviet republic. ..
    The year 1920 was marked by increased threats from the Russian SFSR. With the defeat of the White movement and the Red Armies' advance to the Caucasus frontiers, the republic's situation became extremely tense. In January, the Soviet leadership offered Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan an alliance against the White armies in South Russia and the Caucasus. The Government of the DRG refused to enter any military alliance, referring to its policy of neutrality and noninterference, but suggested negotiations towards a political settlement of the relations between two countries in the hope that this might lead to recognition of Georgia's independence by Moscow. ..In April 1920, the 11th Red Army established a Soviet regime in Azerbaijan, and the Georgian Bolshevik Grigoriy Ordzhonikidze requested permission from Moscow to advance into Georgia. ..In the meantime, in response to Georgia's alleged provision of assistance to the Azeri nationalist rebellion in Ganja, Soviet forces attempted to penetrate Georgian territory, but were repelled by Kvinitadze in brief border clashes at the Red Bridge. .. After Azerbaijan and Armenia had been Sovietized by the Red Army, Georgia found itself surrounded by hostile Soviet republics. Moreover, as the British had already evacuated the Caucasus, the country was left without any foreign support. ..According to Soviet sources, relations with Georgia deteriorated over alleged violations of the peace treaty, re-arrests of Georgian Bolsheviks, obstruction of convoys passing through Georgia to Armenia, and a strong suspicion that Georgia was aiding armed rebels in the North Caucasus. .. Georgia's 1918–1921 borders were formed through the border conflicts with its neighbors and ensuing treaties and conventions. ..
    The territory of the Democratic Republic of Georgia included some territories that today belong to other countries. It was circa 107,600 km2, compared to 69,700 km2 in modern Georgia. The Soviet occupation of the DRG led to significant territorial rearrangements by which Georgia lost almost a third of its territory. ..
    Although the republic had access to almost 200,000 veterans of World War I with skilled generals and officers, the government failed to build up an effective defense system, a factor that greatly contributed to its collapse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Georgia#Downfall
    They have only themselves to blame!
    and you were implying Georgian collaboration with Nazis. Didn't work out so well now did it?
    They also collaborated with the Bolsheviks & some rose to the very top in Moscow, so it's as much a Georgian question/problem as it is the Russian 1 that u invoke in this context!  It did work out well for me, since u switched to others instead of discussing Georgians.
    It's their business. their personal fight.
    Tell that to Russian judges! Regardless, Georgia will be blamed, & with dire consequences! After some of the Crimean Tartars & Chechens,etc. helped the Germans, all of them were deported by Stalin. Volga Germans & American Japanese, Italians & Germans who didn't aid neither Germany, Italy nor Japan were too deported &/ put in internment camps. "Guilty by association".
    Tbilisi has no dirty hands in that business to clean in the first place.
    Oh yes they have in the RF eyes, if they r not even trying to stop Georgians going to fight in Donbass against the ethnic Russians, & if they want better relations with Russia.
    Are Russian mercenaries and volunteers being prosecuted for attacking Ukraine?
    Those r helping their fellow Russians & Russified Ukrainian Cossacks to defend against Galician Ukrainian nationalists' dominated Kiev that glorifies Nazi SS collaborators like Bandera attacking them.
    Pl., read again: "Russia also claims that her servicemen r not in Donbass, but for different reasons, I, u, & many others don't buy that." Yes, there r some Russian regular army soldiers in Donbass. What do u expect Russia to do, since they r too smart to unleash a full scale invasion that will do them more harm than good, & still need to prevent genocide in Donbass?
    Except the Georgians aren't invading Ukraine like the Russians. They are defending their homes there in the Ukrainian army. ..Has nothing to do with Georgia whatsoever.
    If that post Western orchestrated coup army & MVD troops weren't sent to Donbass, they could live peacefully in their homes in Georgia before leaving or in other parts of Ukraine w/o fear of being "killed in their beds"! Silly excuses! Their "homes" r in the trenches now; if their Georgian citizenship is now revoked, they r not welcome back, & for a good reason! A tiger can't change its stripes; to Russia, they r Georgian fighters killing Slavs who defend their homes. Revoking Georgian citizenship isn't going to absolve Georgia's complicity in that conflict. Sorry, but Georgians r now like those ancient Greeks & medieval Swiss  mercenaries ready to fight any1 for pay, even if it means killing their ethnic brethren & fellow countrymen!
    Dozens of dead: the USA is experimenting with people in Georgia NATO is afraid of losing Georgia


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:52 am; edited 13 times in total (Reason for editing : add links)
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:24 pm

    Religious split in Ukraine as a potential direct threat to Georgia
    Absolutely! It's all part of a hybrid war to weaken Russian influence.
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:27 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The elites have the final word, not rank & file citizens.

    Neither the "elites" nor "mid rate" citizens promote hostility or different treatment towards Russians. At least not in Germany and Western Europe. Definitly not. If any Russian claims that, he ain't living here.

    ....from abroad....

    So Russia is just as responsible then, in your implication of foreign involvment.

    '' This is a pledge of unity '': the patriarch of Georgia supported Ukraine on its way to autocephaly https://www.obozrevatel.com/society/eto-zalog-edinstva-patriarh-gruzii-podderzhal-ukrainu-na-puti-k-avtokefalii.htm

    The Georgian church would and never did anything of the like whatsoever.
    http://orthochristian.com/116297.html

    In fact it calls for intervention by Moscow and Constantinople to solve the issue.
    http://orthochristian.com/116142.html

    That's why it won't happen in our lifetime, if at all.

    Likely not. Still not impossible.

    That union would have been a "major non-NATO ally" like Japan, Australia, Sweden & Finland


    Care to provide any argument as to why ?

    The only reason I see is if Russia chose active hostility in the fashion of military aggression / intimidation and economic punishment.

    Russia is interested in peace between the Azeris & Armenians

    While consistently supplying both sides with weapons, heavy & advanced military hardware and ammunition. The Azeris moreso than the Armenians. Reeks of bs.

    ; that 's why she tries to have good relations with both.


    Relations are not just built on weapons ....

    But Georgia is too proud of itself & was counting on US/NATO support in 2008.

    Not sure how any of that relates but k

    But by their belligerence

    You mean #existing

    Georgians crossed the line...

    how dare we regain our independence !

    Starting wars is easy ..... Russia is very good at it!

    You said it not me.  lol1

    They forcefully took and incorporated countries that didn't belong to them and never consented with it. Any legitimacy of such a claim is nonexistent.

    That's besides the point

    lmao

    Rhetorical questions: did Abkhazians .....

    It is, because they did so for over a millenia and half.

    How does the Russian claim over Crimea a peninsula they controlled as Russian nation for barely 2 centuries, hold more legitimacy .... ? if anything it should be declared autonomous Republic and given back to the 'Tatars'.

    Did Mongols, Han Chinese, Tibetans & Koreans consent to be part of the Manchurian Ching Empire? Did the Kurds consent to be part of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, & Syria? The above list can be even longer.

    Exactly ! did the Georgians in whole ever consent being part of the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union ? nup.

    Neither did any of the single principalities including Abkhazia. In fact when the Russians took Sochi the ppl of Abkhazia immediatly asked the central gov to fight them off, which was initialy not even considered due to lack of strenght and resources but done nevertheless and successfully for a time especialy because of the committment of the people to fight off the invaders.  

    Maybe so, but in the long run they'll go their own way

    There is nothing wrong about that. Certain countries should perhaps slowly come to accept it ....

    , & Georgia isn't guaranteed prosperity by associating with the West.

    Currently still a significantly better alternative than being under Russian hegemony. Only thing I detest are questionable values of Europe.

    In the '70s ... Iran


    Good old days.

    Yugoslavia was outside of the Moscow control, but we all know what happened to them.


    Completly irrelevant wheter it was under Russian 'control' or not. It's as if you were trying to say that ethnic conflicts didn't happen in countries that were under Russian control ....

    Now the Serbs r asking Russia for help.


    1. While receiving thorough military training and arms from NATO for years, USA respectively and also doing joint exercises.
    https://www.dvidshub.net/image/4249889/us-special-operations-forces-bring-elite-training-serbia
    https://www.dvidshub.net/image/4794694/annual-exercise-allows-ohio-national-guard-integrate-with-hungarian-serbian-state-partners
    https://www.dvidshub.net/image/4492131/ohio-national-guard-builds-partnerships-platinum-wolf-2018

    Difference is, US/NATO completly respects that Serbia is an independent souvereign country in its right to ask and receive aid from Russia as well. Can't say the same about Russia.

    2. While Croatia is part of the EU and enjoying very high living standarts.

    Like those Ukrainians doing jobs in Poland & Slovakia that the locals won't take.
     

    Ukrainians aren't part of anything and they are at war ....

    that didn't belong to it[/u].

    Oh the glorious hypocricy.

    Btw, communists don't care their only affiliation is to their cause. Ordshonikidse and (Anastas) Mikoyan were Georgian and Armenian respectively, but they helped the communist regime to annex both countries. To their own peoples, they were traitors.

    been sending arms & allowing fighters go to Chechnya


    U mean just like Russia not only "allowed" but armed and deployed Chechen, Cossack and other mercenaries into Abkhazia to escalate tenstions into a war. Yeah, seems familiar.

    Only that Georgia did no such thing. It is what Russia accused Georgia of repeatedly with no evidence ever presented to back it up whatsoever.


    & Georgia before & during 2008 war that were used against the Ossetians & the Russians
    , civilians & military!

    That one I'm hearing the first time. Even the Russians haven't claimed anything that silly yet. Name me one event with evidence where supposedly Chechen fighters hired by Georgia attacked Russian & Ossetian military and civilians before and during the war. Btw it is kind of an offensive stereotype at this point to portray Chechens as baby eaters all the time .... but then again, you are supporting a nation that crudly disrespects Caucasian minorities, so there's that.

    These US-NATO bases provide instability and insecurity rather than peace.

    Considering what Russian bases, presence and involvment have caused, that's rich.

    They have only themselves to blame!

    Right ... like all countries that are being annexed and invaded I guess.

    Only refuting false statements Wink


    They also collaborated with the Bolsheviks & some rose to the very top in Moscow

    and frankly despite all the suffering Russia of today is in eternal debt to those people.

    so it's as much a Georgian question/problem as it is the Russian 1 that u invoke in this context!  It did work out well for me, since u switched to others instead of discussing Georgians.

    Except it completly dismantled the point you were trying to make .... but sure. Let's change context and roll with it. ^^

    So Georgians served for the Nazis ( mostly Soviet POWs and those ppl didn't really have a good alternative ). Didn't go so well for many. Vast majority of Georgians served for the Soviets. Their side won. Still didn't go so well for them. In fact it was far worse. On the Crimean peninsula it was a complete disaster. Tens of thousands died just there.

    Regardless it was a heaven for German POWs compared to Russia. Despite terrible losses they caused and resentment Germans were still respected as humans and many have settled down in Georgia and still live there.

    Code:
    Tell that to Russian judges!

    Russian judges are not the effin world court. Nor do they have any relevence or weight to Georgia and/or Ukraine in any regard. What kind of argument is that ?

    Regardless, Georgia will be blamed, & with dire consequences!

    Oh yeah, definitly making their case with more threats and douchebagery. Not an aggressors language at all. Baseless accusations and "consequences" Where have we seen that again .... was it 1938-39 or something ?

    Tbilisi has no dirty hands in that business to clean in the first place.

    Oh yes they have in the RF eyes

    Yeah you know, from a more professional and actualy legit POV, baseless claims hold no weight whatsoever. If Russia acts completly irrationaly like that, it might as well declare war on the entire planet for just existing.

    Are Russian mercenaries and volunteers being prosecuted for attacking Ukraine?

    Those r helping their fellow Russians .....
     lol1  lol1  lol1  lol1  

    oh damn, that made me actualy choke on my food.

    That's the cheesiest stuff I've read so far. You can't be a more exemplary contradiction and hypocricy than that. Come on man .... ^^

    Brilliant.

    need to prevent genocide in Donbass?

    what "genocide" .... ??  lol1

    stop throwing that word around like it was a casual term. If that's "genocide" than wth was Chechnya ? holocaust 2.0 ?

    at least use "attempted ethnic cleansing" or "attempted massacre" to have it sound less redicilous. But even that is so far fetched, it doesn't do you greater service.

    Silly excuses!

    Living somewhere and fighting for your home isn't an excuse, it's a reason and a personal decision someone makes. No context whatsoever.

    Their "homes" r in the trenches now; if their Georgian citizenship is now revoked, they r not welcome back

    if that turns out to be the case ..... and ? again, what is that to you ? you are trying to make a big deal of something that is only relevant to those people. They are aware of the risks.

    A tiger can't change its stripes

    A tiger isn't a human. Russians aren't mindless savage animals. Countries entire policies and affiliations have changed over night.

    .....to absolve Georgia's complicity in that conflict....

    You can't just claim complicity of a nation in a conflict without providing any even so minor evidence of it. No matter how loud you bark. Not even Russia claims anything of the sort.

    Sorry, but Georgians r now like those ancient Greeks & medieval Swiss  mercenaries ready to fight any1 for pay, even if it means killing their ethnic brethren & fellow countrymen!

    lmao yeah sure. Those few dozen Georgians, most of them residents of Ukraine. The ppl who actualy WENT to Ukraine to fight are few in numbers. partialy UNM members who fear / escaped trial, partialy "adventures". How much of "Swiss mercenaries" is Wagner Group and the thousands of Russian "mercenaries" ( lets be real here ) sent to Ukraine by order of high command ? but you see no "complicity" in that Wink  

    It's especialy rich since Russia's entire military doctrine of the past 26 years is based on sending mercenaries who'd kill their own mom for a 100 dollars and expandable troops as vanguard.

    btw those links don't appear to work. Probably were so bad, the OPs themselves removed it lol
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:58 am

    Neither the "elites" nor "mid rate" citizens promote hostility or different treatment towards Russians. At least not in Germany and Western Europe.
    But in 2000 Russia wasn't even considered for associating with as a candidate for joining NATO.
    So Russia is just as responsible then, in your implication of foreign involvement.
    The UPCMP is under MP, so it's a matter that transcends present borders: https://gordonua.com/news/society/novinskiy-o-resheniyah-sinoda-vselenskogo-patriarhata-vozmozhno-v-blizhayshie-100-200-let-ni-o-kakom-edinstve-ne-mozhet-idti-rech-418730.html

    In fact it calls for intervention by Moscow and Constantinople to solve the issue.
    Constantinople already decided against Moscow, so it's a moot point.
    Care to provide any argument as to why?
    I can only speculate based on the fact that NATO expanded East, & its member Turkey which had 12 wars with Russia is ethnically very close to Azerbaijan (the most populous of the 3), & is next to N. W. Iran.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia
    While consistently supplying both sides with weapons, heavy & advanced military hardware and ammunition.
    They want to have leverage, maintain alliance with Armenia & make $. The US is also selling arms to Israelis & Arabs at the same time- not to provoke wars but to have leverage, maintain alliances, keep the Israeli & Saudi lobbies happy, & make profit$.
    Relations are not just built on weapons
    True, but given the frozen conflict there it's a big component of relations.
    how dare we regain our independence!
    Not only u did so, & those other former republics (not autonomous like Chechnya) didn't do anything to start a direct war with Russia. U, OTH, opposed the independence of others, & that was ur undoing!
    You said it not me.
    don't mince my words! Russia is good at finishing wars, mostly on it's own terms. If/when they do lose anything, others lose as well.
    How does the Russian claim over Crimea a peninsula they controlled as Russian nation for barely 2 centuries, hold more legitimacy....? if anything it should be declared autonomous Republic and given back to the 'Tatars'.
    Before the Tartars, there were Greeks, Persians, Romans, Byzantines;
    The area remained the site of overlapping interests and contact between the early medieval Slavic, Turkic and Greek spheres. [After] the Mongol invasions ..the peninsula's status quo changed in the 1230s, as all but the Perateia of Crimea was incorporated into the territory of the Golden Horde throughout the 14th century CE. In the course of the 13th century CE, portions were controlled by the Republic of Venice and by the Republic of Genoa, the Perateia soon became the Principality of Theodoro and Genoese Gazaria, respectively. ..
    The Crimean Khanate, a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire, succeeded the Golden Horde and lasted from 1449 to 1783. In 1571, the Crimean Tatars attacked and sacked Moscow, burning everything but the Kremlin. Until the late 18th century, Crimean Tatars maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire, exporting about 2 million slaves from Russia and Ukraine over the period 1500–1700. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Ancient_history
    To stop those raids & the slave trade, & secure her access to the Black Sea, Russia took & annexed Crimea. By the right of self defense & conquest. The Tartars r conquered people just like the Armenians & the Kurds of Turkey & Iran. Crimea is too important for Russia to allow the Tartars there call the shots.
    Exactly! did the Georgians in whole ever consent being part of the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union? nup. Neither did any of the single principalities including Abkhazia.
    Some did, just like Kadyrov today. But later the Abkhazians got tired of being part of Georgia. U can't enter the same river twice!
    Good old days.
    That ended with Islamic revolution, Iran-Iraq War, Desert Storm, 9/11/01, Iraqi Freedom, & the current war in Syria.
    Completely irrelevant whether it was under Russian 'control' or not. It's as if you were trying to say that ethnic conflicts didn't happen in countries that were under Russian control ...
    Although it wasn't a Warsaw Pact member, ethnic conflicts there were also influenced & exploited from abroad, to break up Yugoslavia & eliminate Serbia as a viable (& historic) Russian ally in the Balkans. http://www.pravdareport.com/world/europe/12-10-2018/141774-yugoslavia-0/
    Difference is, US/NATO completely respects that Serbia is an independent sovereign country in its right to ask and receive aid from Russia as well. Can't say the same about Russia.
    Serbia is trying to sit on 2 chairs, just like Belarus. So they play both sides. But a time will come when they will get tired of it &/ NATO breaks apart.  
    Ukrainians aren't part of anything and they are at war ...
    They r now associated with the EU & have "no visa" regime. In fact, they r the new slaves of Europe, providing cheap labor, some becoming 2nd class residents/citizens. Ms left home, but those who went to Russia can easily get a RF passport & settle down, as the other Russian speaking Ukrainians done before them since the 1800s.  
    Oh the glorious hypocricy.
    No, see the above quote on Crimea again. Also Bessarabia, Bukovina, Transcarpatia, Novorossia, Kharkov region & Donbass (where Cossacks, a mixed breed, lived) didn't belong to E. Slavic people from Austria-Hungary who later called themselves "Ukrainians", thus setting  themselves apart from the Russians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#Origin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#Ethnic/national_identity
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks#Zaporozhian_Cossacks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks#Black_Sea,_Azov_and_Danubian_Sich_Cossacks
    To their own peoples, they were traitors.
    Those peoples were divided & that's why they were not able to defend their new independence, just like the Chechens under Kadyrov today.
    Name me one event with evidence where supposedly Chechen fighters hired by Georgia attacked Russian & Ossetian military and civilians before and during the war.
    No, I meant Ukraine (& btw Germany) was exporting arms & allowing fighters to go to aid Georgia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations#War_in_Abkhazia
    https://www.dw.com/en/georgians-illegally-armed-with-german-weapons-report-says/a-3571263  https://news.am/eng/news/10892.html
    https://jamestown.org/program/were-ukrainian-arms-supplies-to-georgia-illegal/
    https://carnegie.ru/commentary/75483

    These didn't have homes in Ukraine: https://www.rt.com/politics/ukraine-georgia-elections-scandal/
    and frankly despite all the suffering Russia of today is in eternal debt to those people.
    Tell that to Ukrainians whose relatives died in Holodomor they blame on Stalin's policies & from which Ms of Russians,etc. suffered as well, & Poles who lost their best officers in the Katyn forest!
    Indeed, Russia today would be far more advanced w/o the collectivization of agriculture, the GULAG, war with Germany that could possibly be avoided, & the "Great Social Experiment", just like China w/o Mao's so called Cultural Revolution.
    So Georgians served for the Nazis (mostly Soviet POWs and those ppl didn't really have a good alternative).
    Yes, they got better life in Nazi uniform, but only until they got wounded, captured again &/ killed. There's always a choice; they all could have escaped & joined the Resistance, with better chance of staying alive.
    Russian judges are not the world court. Nor do they have any relevance or weight to Georgia and/or Ukraine in any regard. What kind of argument is that?
    See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction
    If others can use it, why not Russia?
    oh damn, that made me actually choke on my food.
    next time, pl. don't eat while reading my posts!
    They r not "attacking Ukraine", but defending against Ukrainian Army/MVD & nationalist volunteers i.e. death squads.
    what "genocide"??
    here: https://www.rt.com/politics/358678-ukrainian-defense-officials-face-criminal/  http://tass.com/world/1005601
    https://www.rt.com/politics/211443-ukraine-russia-white-book/
    https://ria.ru/world/20180402/1517763951.html
    http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/ussr/ukraine/10-02-2017/136835-donbass-0/  https://genocideindonbas.wordpress.com/httpwp-mep6ag7p-1/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis#Total_deaths
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis#Foreign_fighters
    A tiger isn't a human. Russians aren't mindless savage animals.
    Some humans r worse!
    Confucius and his disciples were often persecuted by fearful despots. Having been deported from another state, the band – passing through a remote region – encountered an old woman crying beside a grave. Confucius asked her why she wept. A tiger had killed her husband and his father, she explained, and had recently attacked her only son.
    “Why do you live in this savage place?” Confucius asked. “Because there is no oppressive government here,” the woman replied.
    “My children,” Confucius said, addressing his disciples, “remember that oppressive government is worse than a tiger.” https://zendictive.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/confucius/
    Yes, Russians r not animals, but those who help the Kiev junta (for lack of a better word) on their own free will r worse than animals! Those ex-Georgian citizens suddenly became "patriotic Ukrainians defending their homes" just so they could avenge their losses in the 2008 war- those r the "tiger stripes" I'm talking about! Prostitutes of war, whether they r mercenaries or not!
    No matter how loud you bark. Not even Russia claims anything of the sort.
    I'm not a dog to bark. If they allowed/turned a blind eye on fighters from Georgia going to Ukraine, then they can be held to account for it.
    How much of "Swiss mercenaries" is Wagner Group and the thousands of Russian "mercenaries" (lets be real here) sent to Ukraine by order of high command? but you see no "complicity" in that
    It's especially rich since Russia's entire military doctrine of the past 26 years is based on sending mercenaries who'd kill their own mom for a 100 dollars and expandable troops as vanguard.
    At least there r not there to kill local peaceful civilians, & in hybrid war in Ukraine, Russia is justified to send them against the Western-backed post coup Kiev government forces who do kill peaceful civilians; the survivors r forced to leave or defend their homes- see all the above relevant links I posted.
    But they r not the Samurais "who would kill their own mom" if ordered or "for a 100 dollars", so don't make these generalizations!
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:40 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    But in 2000 Russia wasn't even considered for associating with as a candidate for joining NATO.

    Relevance ?

    Constantinople already decided against Moscow, so it's a moot point.

    Regardless, a lie is a lie.

    I can only speculate

    Irrelevant. Azerbaijan is not Turkey.

    While consistently supplying both sides with weapons, heavy & advanced military hardware and ammunition.

    They want to have leverage & make $. selling arms to Israelis & Arabs

    Mostly the $, and the Russians also sell billion dollars worth of arms to the Saudis.

    True, but given the frozen conflict there it's a big component of relations.

    It def is treated so which is sad.

    (not autonomous like Chechnya) didn't do anything to start a direct war with Russia.

    They didn't have to. Russia did them the favour.

    U, OTH, opposed the independence of others, & that was ur undoing!

    Don't know what you mean. We didn't oppose the independence of any country.

    if by "others" you mean a handfull violent peopel attacking local administration in a failed attempt to seize control, who are scared off and consequently sheltered by Russia, that sees an opportunity ( or more realisticaly, planned it from the beginning ) to instigate a full fledged rebellion to destabilize Georgia by providing them with thousands of mercenaries, weapons, tanks and even air support, then frankly I question the intelligence of people.

    But whatever justification for the most terrible massacre and actual ethnic cleansing of the 1990s, makes them sleep better at night. Wink

    Russia is good at finishing wars

    Bullying a country that struggles to even mobilize a division with police included and can barely defend itself against any of its neighbours (Georgia) is not a show of feat and power. On top of that the GAF was in far more miserable condition than the Russian army.

    mostly on it's own terms.


    Obviously. Everything is easier when its done on your terms. Rolling Eyes

    If/when they do lose anything, others lose as well.

    That's not some unique trait .... this isn't a game. That is what happens when you are at war. Georgia suffered more physicaly, Russia more economicaly.

    Before the Tartars, there were Greeks, Persians, Romans, Byzantines;

    That's my point. But going by Russian logic, since Tatars were last it actualy belongs to them.

    Crimea is too important for Russia to allow the Tartars there call the shots.

    and that's basicaly the gist of Russian politics.

    Some did


    No, not really. All but single individual traitors, resisted and those ppl were mostly affiliate, but not actual Georgians aka Persians, Armenians etc.

    But later the Abkhazians got tired of being part of Georgia.

    Poorly crafted Russian narratives are not historical fact.

    Good old days.

    That ended with Islamic revolution, Iran-Iraq War, Desert Storm, 9/11/01, Iraqi Freedom, & the current war in Syria.

    Still good days as long as they lasted. No religious oppression, freedom of expression etc. Needs to return.


    Although it wasn't a Warsaw Pact member, ethnic conflicts there were also influenced & exploited from abroad, to break up Yugoslavia & eliminate Serbia as a viable (& historic) Russian ally in the Balkans.

    Needs backup. No reason for that level of intent whatsoever. It was more likely with other countries. Why didn't it happen with those ? Look at entire Yugoslavia conflict please. Resentments are deeply rooted between single factions / peoples like for instance between Croats and Serbs and obviously muslims were enemies for centuries. Really, it was a powder doomed to blow up in their faces sooner or later without any interference at all.

    Serbia is trying to sit on 2 chairs, just like Belarus. So they play both sides. But a time will come when they will get tired of it &/ NATO breaks apart.
     

    I bet you'd like that the way you take sides.

    Ukrainians aren't part of anything and they are at war ...

    They r now associated with the EU & have "no visa" regime.

    Uhm no. Loose visa policy doesn't make them "EU".

    .... providing cheap labor, some becoming 2nd class residents/citizens.

    Mate that's been an issue since the breakup of the USSr .... with ALL Warsaw pact countries, including Russia. Do you know how many Russians live here ?

    and why do they not provide cheap labor in Russia instead ? I think that doesn't require much explanation. There are simply greater opportunities and better conditions here, even if you are providing "cheap labor". In a wellfare state like Germany, you get even paid if you're too lazy to work.
     
    Oh the glorious hypocricy.

    Those peoples were divided & that's why they were not able to defend their new independence, just like the Chechens under Kadyrov today.

    Because there is no effin legitimacy in being installed as a puppet by the hegemonial overlord. Learn the difference finaly.

    No, I meant Ukraine (& Germany)was exporting arms & allowing fighters to go to aid Georgia.


    .... and ? since when is that an argument ? half the world is armed by Russia and they couldn't give 2 Fs wheter the country is unstable or not. They arm all sides contrary to Germany and Ukraine.

    https://www.dw.com/en/georgians-illegally-armed-with-german-weapons-report-says/a-3571263  https://news.am/eng/news/10892.html
    https://jamestown.org/program/were-ukrainian-arms-supplies-to-georgia-illegal/
    https://carnegie.ru/commentary/75483

    What this shows, is only that the West cares and is concerned when arms made by private weapon companies like H&K end up in conflict nations, which is a matter of debate wheter it was allowed or not ( btw in Germany officials get prosecuted and lose their position for that ), but on the other side Russia sells arms to all sides in a conflict just for the $, so what is more immoral ?

    They didn't have homes in Ukraine: https://www.rt.com/politics/ukraine-georgia-elections-scandal/

    Residents and foreign volunteers are two different things, also RT as source ... please Wink

    Tell that to Ukrainians whose relatives died in Holodomor they blame on Stalin's policies & from which Ms of Russians,etc. suffered as well, & Poles who lost their best officers in the Katyn forest!

    We are talking about Russia and no matter what attrocities and mighty strategic blunders those people committed, without Stalin's 5 year plan and Beria's nuclear program, and also Ukrainian, Georgian, Armenian and Jewish scientists developing all their precious deterents, they wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

    Indeed, Russia today would be far more advanced w/o the collectivization of agriculture, the GULAG & the "Great Social Experiment", just like China w/o Mao's so called Cultural Revolution.

    Highly unlikely. Not with any of the leadership they had. Perhaps if the Russian Empire wasn't fought and dissolved they could have dreamt of such things. But under ppl like Lenin the mastermind of the Red Terror and Trotsky and all the other maniacs and weaklings, it would have gone nowhere. If it wasn't for Stalin insisting on finaly constructing somewhat of an industrial power no matter the cost, the Germans would have in great likelyhood achieved decicively more during Operation Barbarossa then they actualy did.

    Where does it leave us ? the Soviets shouldn't have assumed power in the first place. But on the other hand, if Russia remained an empire and prospects of cultural / industrial revolution were dim as ever, and the Nazis still attacked, it would have gone probably worse. Nobody can tell. Its all just speculation and wishful thinking.

    There's always a choice; they could have escaped & joined the Resistance with better chance of staying alive.

    That's what many of them did .... only it as I said before, life isn't a game. You fail, you're dead. You succeed, you are very likely to die at the hands of your allies anyway.

    In one of the German army's most secretive units, the subversive groups of Abwehr, that consisted of former Georgian POWs tried exactly that. They were to infiltrate Soviet lines and sabotage important targets like bridges, supply depots, dams etc. But they planned to use that opportunity to escape to the Soviet side. The Germans found out and they executed them all, about 50 men.

    Many Georgians in similar units did the same and were actualy successful, but instead of what they hoped they got the classic NKVD treatment.

    Similar things happened in some other groups of the Brandenburgers, Bergmann battalion etc. Although those troops were more devoted and offered the Soviets greater resistance than even German SS troops, a number of Georgians still switched or tried to switch sides. Hitler openly complained about Georgians being untrustworthy in that regard. So all Georgian Wehrmacht assetts except elite units were completly redeployed to France.

    Not to mention the Texel uprising. Georgians tried to turn to the allies as soon as an opportunity was given. Many who escaped joined the French resistance.

    So again, what point are you trying to make ?

    See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction
    If others can use it, why not Russia?

    To use it, you need some legal weight and evidence mate. Otherwise any subject can be casualy tried just to get rid of it because it's a political opponent. That's not how it works .... or should be tried to abuse. Rolling Eyes

    They r not "attacking Ukraine", but defending against Ukrainian Army/MVD & nationalist volunteers i.e. death squads.

    Invading foreign countries and fighting its security assetts is an offence not defence. You're trying to twist it so hard it's become comedic.

    genocide

    Mate, first of all, plse, you and others, learn the definition of that term ....

    you can keep posting Russian sites accusing Ukraine of whatever they want. The deliberately crude misuse of terms means it are lies, not fact. No such thing has or was even attempted, least committed, at any time since the beginning of the conflict.

    Humans r worse! Confucius & his pupils once saw a woman crying. She told him: a tiger killed my husband, my son & my brother! But when asked, "why r u still here?", she said: oh, there is no repressive local government here! Then Confucius said to his disciples: see, a government can be worse than a tiger!

    You keep quoting him, but put it out of context and only applies to repressive governments, not all. Confucius even clarifies that.
    Affiliation and policies have changed over night. Humans are completly different type of animals altogheter. They can be worse, but they can also be so much more.

    Yes, Russians r not animals, but those who help the Kiev junta (for lack of a better word) on their own free will r worse than animals!


    More hypocricy. Getting old.

    Ex-Georgian citizens suddenly became "patriotic Ukrainians defending their homes" just so they could avenge their losses in the 2008 war- those r the "tiger stripes" I'm talking about!

    You care too much about that. Georgia doesn't even consider those people bullet catch and even Russia seperates Saakashvili and his goons, openly from the rest of Georgia.

    Prostitutes of war, whether they r mercenaries or not!

    Just like the ones fighting on the Russian side. You try to make a difference where there is none.

    I'm not a dog to bark. If they allowed/turned a blind eye on fighters from Georgia going to Ukraine, then they can be held to account for it.

    No, not really. You don't seem to grasp legal aspects and the concept of national involvment v individual involvment and seem to have a slightly flawed perception of how things work in life .... because what you say does not reflect what actualy is.

    Russia would have at least openly brought up such an inflated issue if it felt that way. Instead those people are treated as completly different entities. Which is also the only rational thing to do, both on legal and political basis.

    At least there r not there to kill local peaceful civilians

    No, they just kill everyone who opposes them, civilians, military, even eachother.

    & in hybrid war in Ukraine, Russia is justified

    Yeah, that's what you and they keep saying. But then being a complete hypocrite about the rest of the world. Then you wonder why nobody takes that kind of behaviour seriously. Go figure.

    That is relevant. But not the suffering and wars that are instigated by Russia.

    Bravo.

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:13 pm

    Like which war instigated by Russia? The one we're you dolts started by shelling a city and killing UN peacekeepers, were the EU admitted you guys started?

    Or Ukraine, were US, Canadian and EU politicians we're handing out cookies and "support" for the protestors while they were shooting and molotov throwing at police? Then threw out a democratically elected leader which then sparked eastern Ukraine to rise up against Kiev? With Crimeans voting to leave?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:30 pm

    Relevance?
    Didn't u write that W. Europeans r not hostile to Russians? Where & what is ur logic? to me, it's rather very selective!
    Regardless, a lie is a lie.
    Yes, but I didn't originate that news.
    Update:  https://regnum.ru/news/society/2499199.html
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2499828.html
    Irrelevant. Azerbaijan is not Turkey.
    Neither is Greece, but both r in NATO. The US is using NATO members in Eurasia & would've  used Baku against Moscow & Tehran.
    But whatever justification for the most terrible massacre and actual ethnic cleansing of the 1990s, makes them sleep better at night.
    Blame the bigger geopolitics for it involving the US, RF & NATO. What's the difference between Kosovo, Crimea, Donbass, Abkhazia & S. Ossetia? After US & NATO got involved in the Balkans, Sudan, ME & Lybia, Russia returned the favor in the Caucasus, Syria & Ukraine.
    If it wasn't for Stalin insisting on finaly constructing somewhat of an industrial power no matter the cost, the Germans would have in great likelyhood achieved decicively more during Operation Barbarossa then they actualy did.
    Stalin was preparing to attack Germany in 1942, but the Abwer detected it, hence Barbarossa. W/o Stalin, the 1941-1945 war may not have started at all, with the Cold War following it. Russia could have reformed & become powerful enough had Stalin, a Georgian expelled seminarist, terrorist & bandit turned revolutionary, didn't end the NEP that Lenin himself wanted to last for several decades.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy#End_of_NEP
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union
    Invading foreign countries and fighting its security assets is an offence not defense. You're trying to twist it so hard it's become comedic.
    By the same token, Russia views expansion of NATO/EU & their coup in Kiev as invasion of its sphere of influence. Austria, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Mongolia, & Ireland r all neutral, nind their business, & Russia has no reason to invade them. So, let's call things by their proper names, w/o twisting!
    Mate, first of all, plse, you and others, learn the definition of that term ....
    you can keep posting Russian sites accusing Ukraine of whatever they want. The deliberately crude misuse of terms means it are lies, not fact. No such thing has or was even attempted, least committed, at any time since the beginning of the conflict.
    The facts on the ground speak for themselves- civilian areas were bombed, creating Ms of refugees. Kiev propaganda then blamed everything on the rebels.
    You keep quoting him, but put it out of context and only applies to repressive governments, not all.
    If the nationalistic gov. of Ukraine isn't repressive, I don't know which is!
    Georgia doesn't even consider those people bullet catch and even Russia seperates Saakashvili and his goons, openly from the rest of Georgia.
    but he was supported by the West & that's why he felt safe ordering to open fire in S. Ossetia, giving Russia a solid casus belli. It's not what we think, but what Russia will do with Georgia regarding ethnic Georgians fighting in Donbass.
    Just like the ones fighting on the Russian side. You try to make a difference where there is none.
    yes, there is- they use them for internal political reasons; OTH, the US military recruits, all volunteers, r mostly poverty drafted for pay, training & benefits. So, by definition, they r mercenaries too.
    Russia would have at least openly brought up such an inflated issue if it felt that way.
    it could still happen!

    But then being a complete hypocrite about the rest of the world.
    in defending their interests & people, they r more consistent & less hypocritical than the West which very good at backstabbing:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/uk-russia-nerve-agent-attack-assassination-killing-sergei-skripal-a8297906.html
    After the collapse and dismemberment of the USSR, the United States felt the last restraints on its power fall away. NATO was expanded up to Russia’s western frontiers. Yugoslavia was destroyed and dismembered without any reference to international law. The United States and its NATO vassals backed Islamist terrorists and gangsters in Bosnia and Kosovo, following the Afghan pattern. «They’re our terrorists and gangsters,» the Americans might have said, «and therefore we’re alright». Serbia was bombed, its infrastructure destroyed, civilians were killed. Not even crocodile tears were shed in the west over the dead Serbian civilians.
    Since the destruction of Yugoslavia, the list of US and western covert or overt wars of aggression is long. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, Syria, Yemen have all been destroyed or are being destroyed by the United States and its NATO or regional vassals in the name of «responsibility to protect» (R2P) and «democracy» proselytization. The west’s allies are Wahhabi terrorists (again), Daesh, Nusra, Al-Qaeda and various iterations of them, as well as fascists in the Ukraine. It is an extraordinary American rogues’ gallery, like a long police line-up of felons. But «not to worry», the Americans would no doubt repeat, «they’re our Islamists and our fascists, and working for us, which makes everything alright».
    Everywhere the United States leaves its footprints, along with those of the British and French depending on location, you will find ruins and victims. Iraq and Libya are in chaos and infested with Al-Qaeda terrorists. War drags on in Afghanistan after fifteen years. In the Ukraine the US-backed fascist coup d’état has only partially succeeded and a crisis there could irrupt at any time. In Yemen a Saudi invasion has butted into formidable resistance.
    In Syria the US and Anglo-French-led attempt to overthrow the Syrian government has failed. Not only did the United States run up against a formidable Syrian resistance inspired by Syrian president Bashar el-Assad, but it has run up against the Russian Federation, Iran, and Hezbollah. They are allied with the Syrian government against the invasion of US and western supported Islamist mercenaries, armed, financed, trained, and sheltered by Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan, and Apartheid Israel.
    Russia has played the principal role in checking the US-led war of aggression against Syria. Of course, President Vladimir Putin has tried to finesse the United States into abandoning its terrorist allies and joining a coalition to destroy the Wahhabi invaders. As I write these lines, the Russian effort has failed; as well it might, since the United States is addicted to subversion and wars of aggression as a drug user is addicted to narcotics. But Russia had to try, and I suppose, will continue to try, to persuade the United States to go cold turkey.
    In the meantime its French and British vassals accuse Russia and Syria of war crimes, fulminate about the surrounded, victimized Wahhabi terrorists in Aleppo. The very same who have made films showing their decapitation of Syrian POWs and officials, Christians and any others who don’t embrace their practice of Islam. Further forms of cruelty include execution by drowning or being burned alive in cages, or crushed by tanks. Women are raped, and stoned if they don’t submit; refugees seeking to escape Al-Qaeda authority are flogged, crucified, decapitated, buried alive, or shot (the latter form of execution being for the Wahhabis a rather banal, merciful way of killing victims).
    It is these terrorists who the United States and its vassals support in Aleppo and elsewhere in Syria. They have abandoned the argument about the Wahhabis being «our terrorists» for another to the effect that they are «our moderates». This line is just as preposterous and bogus as all the other US justifications for war, though President Putin and his foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, have played along trying to persuade the United States to see reason. The Russian strategy has failed, as its other peace strategies have failed, because, inter alia, there are no Islamist «moderates» to separate from the so-called genuine terrorists. «Our moderates» is a fiction and a US cover for its support of Al-Qaeda and its various allies, largely foreign mercenaries fighting against the secular, legitimate government of Syria.
    The only result, so far, of Russian efforts is that US generals threaten «to beat» Russia as never before. The French president threatens Russia and Syria with war crimes indictments, and various British politicians, including the Foreign Secretary, fulminate about Nazi-like bombardments of poor, innocent «moderates» who in fact use Aleppo civilians in their diminishing zone of occupation as human shields, summarily executing those who attempt to escape. In the much larger part of Aleppo which the «moderates» do not control, they deliberately target civilians. Will there ever be an end to the hypocrisy and double standards? From Wilson to Johnson, to Obama, we have been subjected to a pack of lies. The US and western narrative about Syria, as elsewhere, is false to the last syllable. The «shining house upon the hill» is a myth. A dark charnel house filled to the ceiling with victims of US and European neo-colonialism would better represent the reality. But don’t expect any western governments to look inside that house. «Collateral damage,» the Americans would say, «and a price worth paying». Myths and lies conceal the real foreign conduct of the United States and its vassals, but that unfortunately is nothing new. The question now is whether Americans, Europeans and Canadians are willing to risk a gratuitous war with Russia for a pack of lies, in defence of the US-led Al-Qaeda invasion of Syria. We, all of us, need to decide quickly, before it is too late. https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/10/16/western-hypocrisy-why-makes-world-dangerous-place.html
    Washington is opposed to any government whose leaders cannot be purchased to perform as Washington’s puppets. This is why George W. Bush’s regime invaded Afghanistan, why Washington overthrew Saddam Hussein, and why Washington wants to overthrow Libya [done!], Syria, and Iran. ..Frustrated by their failure, the Americans and their NATO puppets increasingly murder women, children, village elders, Afghan police, and aid workers. ..In a June 27 interview on National Public Radio, Ban Ki-moon, Washington’s South Korean puppet installed as the Secretary General of the United Nations, was unable to answer why the UN and the US tolerate the slaughter of unarmed civilians in Bahrain, but support the International Criminal Court’s indictment of Gadaffi for defending Libya against armed rebellion. Gadaffi has killed far fewer people than the US, UK, or the Saudis in Bahrain. Indeed, NATO and the Americans have killed more Libyans than has Gadaffi. The difference is that the US has a naval base in Bahrain, but not in Libya. https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/06/29/a-world-overwhelmed-by-western-hypocrisy/
    Clearly there are two standards operative in the world today: one for the vast majority of nations and another for those comprising the dying but dangerous collection of European colonial capitalist nations that have decided to use military means to maintain their global hegemony. https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/09/02/the-human-rights-hypocrisy-of-the-west/
    'I can't understand why Catholic Europe is standing up behind Saudi Arabia, and yet no Christian can stand in Riyadh with a beer. The Vatican man smiled and responded by saying nothing'”. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/14/syria-australia-battle
    Here, then, is the hypocrisy of the West, which seems hell-bent on singling Israel out for exceptional protection from criticism or meaningful sanctions despite its 50-year long illegal occupation of Palestinian, Syrian and Lebanese land, and its 70-year ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Just like Russia and Iraq, Israel has annexed illegally-occupied land, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. The US has been severely critical of Russia for its use of the veto when it comes to Syria and Iran. In 2015, the then US Ambassador to the UN, Samantha Power, claimed that Russian vetoes were “putting the UN Security Council’s legitimacy at risk.” Her successor Nikki Hayley even threatened that if Russia continues to use its veto then the US may have to take unilateral action against Iran. This was after Russia vetoed a resolution that had been watered down from a condemnation of Iran for violating an arms embargo on Houthi leaders in Yemen to “noting with particular concern”.The particular hypocrisy of the US lies in its own use of the veto power on 43 occasions in support of Israel, the last of which was against criticism of its own action in recognising Jerusalem as capital of the Zionist state in December last year. This does not include the number of times that the threat of the US using its veto resulted in resolutions not even making it to a Security Council vote, including an attempt by the PLO to secure recognition of Palestine as a state in 2014. Britain’s hypocrisy can be demonstrated in its support for sanctions against Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq and its support for sanctions against Russia but its absolute refusal to consider sanctioning Israel for any matter, including its illegal colonial-settlement enterprise and alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity. The UK has actually worked to oppose any boycott or sanction against a state that stands accused of Apartheid by an ESCWA report which was sanctioned by the UN but was then taken down under pressure from the US and Israel. ..Britain has now indicated that it might not send members of the Royal family to the World Cup in Russia but has announced that Prince William — second in line to the throne — will make an official visit to Israel this year despite its continued illegal occupation of Palestinian land, its illegal annexation of Jerusalem, its Apartheid Wall and its illegal siege on Gaza which has been said to constitute collective punishment and is thus a war crime.
    Palestinians and their supporters, therefore, have ample reason to call out the international community for its hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to dealing with Israel, whose illegal actions and breaches of international law have accompanied its whole 70-year existence. Remember this fact the next time that a Western politician defends Israel’s breaches of international law as “acts of self-defence”. It is the only country in the world to which the permanent members of the UN Security Council and others in the West grant such exceptional immunity.
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180320-israel-the-west-and-shameless-hypocrisy/
    The hypocrisy goes back a long way in the wars waged and insurgencies supported by the West in the Crescent from Libya to Afghanistan.
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/04/14/western-hypocrisy-about-airstrike-killings/
    It is relevant to recall that it was British and French colonial ambitions in 1917 that carved up the collapsed Ottoman Empire, imposing artificial political communities with borders reflecting European priorities, rather than natural affinities, and taking no account of the preferences of the resident populations. This colonial plot foiled former US President Woodrow Wilson’s more positive proposal to implement self-determination based on affinities of ethnicity, tradition and religion of those formerly living under Ottoman rule. ..
    It is also helpful to recall the 1999 Kosovo War and the 2011 war in Libya, both managed as NATO operations carried out in defiance of international law and the UN charter. Because of an anticipated Russian veto, NATO, with strong European backing, launched a punishing air attack that drove Serbia out of Kosovo. Despite the presence of a strong case for humanitarian intervention within the Kosovo context, it set a dangerous precedent, which Iraq hawks found convenient a few years later.
    In effect, the US found itself backed into insisting on an absurd position, to the effect that the veto should be respected without any questioning when the West uses it, most arbitrarily to protect Israel from much more trivial, yet justifiable, criticisms of its policies. Evading the veto to launch this missile attack on the basic sovereign rights of a member government is a much more serious challenge to the spirit and letter of the UN charter.
    Cognitive dissonance
    American diplomats do not try to justify, or even explain, their inconsistent attitudes towards the authority of the UN veto, despite the starkness of the contradiction. Perhaps it is a textbook example of what psychologists call cognitive dissonance. More accessibly, it is a prime instance of American exceptionalism.
    The US, as the anointed guarantor of virtue and perpetual innocence in world politics, is not bound by the rules and standards by which we judge the conduct of others, especially adversaries.
    Because the people of the Libyan city of Benghazi truly faced an imminent humanitarian emergency in 2011, the UN case for lending protection seemed strong. Russia and China, permanent members of the UN Security Council, were persuaded to suspend their suspicions about Western motives and abstain from a Security Council resolution specifically authorising the establishment of a no-fly zone to protect Benghazi.
    It didn’t take long to disabuse Russia and China, mocking their trust. They were quickly shocked into the realisation that NATO’s real mission in Libya was regime change, not humanitarian protection. In other words, these Western powers who are currently claiming at the UN that international law is on their side with regards to Syria, have themselves a terrible record of flouting and manipulating UN authority whenever convenient and insisting on their full panoply of obstructive rights under the charter when Israel’s wrongdoing is under review.
    Reigniting the Syrian war
    The Syrian attack, and its legal rationale at the UN, puts the world back at square one when it comes to restraining the international use of force. Imagine the indignation that the US would muster if Russia or China proposed at the Security Council a long-overdue peacekeeping mission to protect the multiply abused population of Gaza. And if these countries went further, and had the geopolitical gall to act outside the UN because of the urgency of the humanitarian justification, the world would almost certainly experience the bitter taste of apocalyptic warfare.
    The charter framework makes as much sense, or more, now than when crafted in 1945. Recourse to force is only permissible as an act of self-defence against a prior armed attack, and then only until the Security Council has time to act. In non-defensive situations, such as the Syrian case, the charter makes clear beyond reasonable doubt that the Security Council alone possesses the authority to mandate the use of force, including in response to an ongoing humanitarian emergency. The breakthrough idea in the charter is to limit, as much as language can, discretion by states to decide on their own when to make war. Syria is the latest indication that this hopeful idea has been crudely cast in the geopolitical wastebasket.
    Bombing Syria is a Saudi-sponsored adventure that will achieve nothing
    It will be up to the multitudes to challenge these developments, and to use their mobilised influence to reverse the decline of international law and the authority of the UN. Trump’s boastful tweet after the Syrian attack, which used the words "mission accomplished", weirdly recalled the time in 2003 when the same phrase was on a banner behind George W Bush as he spoke prematurely of victory in Iraq. Those words soon came back to haunt Bush, and if Trump were capable of irony, he might have realised that he is likely to endure an even more humbling fate.
    The end result is the reigniting of the Syrian war just when it seemed to be nearing its end, with the widespread recognition that Damascus prevailed, for better or worse. Now Israel has been given the opportunity to pour oil on the dying embers in Syria to sustain its policy of making sure that chaos and conflict persist, with neither side being allowed to win and end the violence. In the process, the West, led by the US, has again shown its contempt for international law and UN authority.
    https://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/what-mission-did-us-really-accomplish-syria-851586713
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:06 am

    Didn't u write that W. Europeans r not hostile to Russians? Where & what is ur logic? to me, it's rather very selective!

    Logic is the reality that Western Europe is not hostile towards Russians at all. Are the political relations strained ? yes, but there is a huge difference between politics and public perception and social, communal discrimination.

    Yes, but I didn't originate that news.

    I didn't say you're a lier, but that the ones who posted such fake news, both Ukrainian and Russian media outlets spread that desinformation.

    Neither is Greece, but both r in NATO. The US is using NATO members in Eurasia & would've  used Baku against Moscow & Tehran.

    Very unlikely. Azerbaijan is part of the CIS and so would have Georgia remained if Russia wasn't hostile towards it. It is also political regressive to oppose country's self determination when it comes to choosing direction.

    Russia returned the favor in the Caucasus, Syria & Ukraine.

    Fantastic. That is exactly why their position is so rotten. It's paranoid 'retaliation' over ( Yugoslavia wasn't even instigated, that powder cake was about to blow without interference opposite to actualy instigated proxy wars ) reason and example.

    Stalin was preparing to attack Germany in 1942

    I've heard that theory a lot, but there is no real evidence to back it up. Military disposition is one side of the coin. Actual intentions another.

    ..... hence Barbarossa. W/o Stalin, the 1941-1945 war may not have started at all, with the Cold War following it. Russia could have reformed & become powerful enough had Stalin....

    That's nonsense. Read about Hitler, his 'Mein Kampf' and Lebensraum im Osten.

    What Stalin wanted or not was absolutly irrelevant to something Hitler had in mind before he even assumed power, and which began as a concept of the German Empire in the late 19th century.
    The German high command was fully aware of the poor state of the Soviet military when they were carefully planning the operation in 1940.

    , a Georgian expelled seminarist, terrorist & bandit turned revolutionary, didn't end the NEP that Lenin himself wanted to last for several decades.

    Lenin wasn't the brightest bulp in the room. For all his anti-capitalist speech, in the end state-capitalism was exactly what he swore on when formulating the NEP. Stalin supported the NAP despite Scissors Crisis in 1924 and kept it going until 1928 and another NEP caused crisis. It wasn't just him who enforced the five year plans subsequently but the vast majority of the communist party that demanded heavy industrialization to meet Western standarts for quick capital. People always blame just him. It is never one man. It was a collective plan worked out and proposed by the Gosplan and unilateraly decided to be implemented union wide.

    Invading foreign countries and fighting its security assets is an offence not defense. You're trying to twist it so hard it's become comedic.

    ....sphere of influence....

    that notion belongs to history. It's incredibly immature and backward.

    The facts on the ground speak for themselves- civilian areas were bombed, creating Ms of refugees. Kiev propaganda then blamed everything on the rebels.

    That is still neither genocide, nor attempted genocide, nor a massacre, not attempted massacre and also not ethnic cleansing or attempted ethnic cleansing.

    If the nationalistic gov. of Ukraine isn't repressive, I don't know which is!

    Autocratic police states are. Almost every Russian ally is.

    Saakashvili

    Wheter that is even true, is debatable. Fact is his rating dropped sifnificantly. But in any case, Saakashvili didn't fail in responding to Ossetian attacks on Georgian villages and civilians, but in the manner he responded. What should have been a retaliation he turned into an attempt to regain gov control over the entire region.

    Nothing about the Russian invasion was "Casus Belli". The Russian garrison opened fire on the Georgians despite the fact they were informed about the operation and told by both Georgian MC and officials to keep out of fights. Georgians responded in kind when attacked by them. It's not like in those silly Russian PR movies about 8.8 they made where everything just #happens without any reason whatsoever.

    but what Russia will do with Georgia regarding ethnic Georgians fighting in Donbass.

    Attack Georgia because of a bunch of volunteers fighting to defend Ukraine from their aggression ? yeah, that will definitly repair it's internationl image. If they do anything like that, they might as well consider themselves political corpses already.

    yes, there is- they use them for internal political reasons; OTH, the US military recruits, all volunteers, r mostly poverty drafted for pay, training & benefits. So, by definition, they r mercenaries too.

    .... it's about difference, and there is none. You just concluded that to yourself. Rolling Eyes

    it could still happen!

    Rather unlikely. At least I expect them to not be that stupid.


    ....they r more consistent than the West....

    Yes, they are more consistent in their hypocricy than anyone else on the planet, and the world is tired of it.

    which very good at backstabbing

    Russia should really not accuse others of backstabbing.

    After the collapse and dismemberment of the USSR....

    You should read less conspiracy theories that never provide any legitimate evidence and concentrate more on evidential facts and actual historical reality.
    What I just read is a all over the place twisting actual events with very colorful imagination.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:57 am

    Logic is the reality that Western Europe is not hostile towards Russians at all.
    Maybe so, but they mispercieve Russia & expect no reaction to NATO expansion.
    Very unlikely. Azerbaijan is part of the CIS and so would have Georgia remained if Russia wasn't hostile towards it.
    Ukraine was also participating non-member state. Armenia is still a member. Her future direction is any1's guess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States#Member_states
    The CIS membership isn't something written in stone and is subject to change. Russia only became hostile in response to Georgia's & Ukraine's actions, & her position is healthy, not rotten.
    Yugoslavia wasn't even instigated, that powder cake was about to blow without interference opposite to actually instigated proxy wars
    But NATO intervention made it worse!
    I've heard that theory a lot, but there is no real evidence to back it up. Military disposition is one side of the coin. Actual intentions another.
    Intentions can & do change but the capabilities of the other side is what drives responses.
    Read about Hitler, his 'Mein Kampf' and Lebensraum im Osten.
    I heard that his book was considered outdated in Germany by 1939 with the peace pact signed with the USSR. He knew that Stalin had read it, why sign the pact & give him time to prepare to back stub Germany? Hitler wasn't stupid. But he underestimated Stalin's cunning. Attacking USSR unprovoked & opening a 2nd front was the last thing he needed. The Red Army was better prepared for its own offensive that historians realize. The myth that they didn't have time to rearm was to hide huge losses in captured tanks,etc. that were concentrated so close to the border for advance.  Read  The Icebraker by V. Suvorov
    The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II
    Stalin's War of Extermination, 1941-1945: Planning, Realization and Documentation
    Up to 30 million people are estimated by Western historians to have died between 1918 and 1956 in Stalinist repression, civil war, famine and collectivization, although the true figure may never be known. http://www.dpcamps.org/jewsVsUkrainians.html
    It wasn't just him who enforced the five year plans subsequently but the vast majority of the communist party that demanded heavy industrialization to meet Western standards for quick capital. People always blame just him. It is never one man. It was a collective plan worked out and proposed by the Gosplan and unilaterally decided to be implemented union wide.
    Nicolas II was also believed to be the kind tzar. Stalin set the direction & others were following orders lest they be sent to GULAG or worse.
    that notion belongs to history. It's incredibly immature and backward.
    To Russia's security it's still valid. Strategic depth is achieved & maintained, among other things, by securing bordering states' low place on a threat matrix.  
    That is still neither genocide, nor attempted genocide, nor a massacre, not attempted massacre and also not ethnic cleansing or attempted ethnic cleansing.
    Many civilians & POWs were executed, others forced to leave E. Ukraine. That's genocide & ethnic cleansing by default. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/10/ukraine-forces-must-stop-firing-civilians-after-nine-killed-donetsk/
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/one-million-people-forced-to-leave-their-homes-because-of-ukraine-conflict-un-says-10030722.html
    https://www.voanews.com/a/united-nations-human-right-council-ukraine-conflict/3910072.html
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/12/ukraine-on-the-front-line-of-europes-forgotten-war
    Oppression on both sides:
    https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/ukraine
    The Russian garrison opened fire on the Georgians despite the fact they were informed about the operation and told by both Georgian MC and officials to keep out of fights. Georgians responded in kind when attacked by them.
    The area was under Russian peacekeepers watch- Georgia should have known better than just warning them & obtained from any violence.
    Attack Georgia because of a bunch of volunteers fighting to defend Ukraine from their aggression?
    No, there r other means to punish it!
    .. it's about difference, and there is none.
    The difference is how they came about. The West sent its mercenaries to Georgia & Ukraine 1st, Russia only followed suit. That matters more than what they r called & why. I'm using a different level of analysis here.
    Yes, they are more consistent in their hypocrisy than anyone else on the planet, and the world is tired of it.
    Mincing & twisting words again! They r consistent with their foreign policy while the West is consistent in its hypocrisy. I provided the documentary proof of it from Western sources. Also, Mao killed ~70M Chinese but the West had no problem supporting & using him to counterbalance the USSR. Autocratic Shah of Iran, Egyptian "Pharaoh" Mubarak, Saddam Hussein, Saudi Kings, & S. African/ROK/ROC rulers were installed/supported/used for decades to maintain the Western way of life.
    Russia should really not accuse others of backstabbing.
    If she does it, it's not w/o good reasons & only after all else fails. The West does it all the time as a matter of policy, internal & external.
    You should read less conspiracy theories that never provide any legitimate evidence and concentrate more on evidential facts and actual historical reality.
    What I just read is a all over the place twisting actual events with very colorful imagination.
    What evidence can u provide to support ur statements?
    Who was to benefit from NATO expansion (& its air war vs. Belgrade), BMD around Russia & China, coups in Kiev & Tbilisi, as well as earlier regime changes in L. America, Iraq, Iran & Afghanistan? Certainly not Russia & China!
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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:38 pm

    Maybe so, but they mispercieve Russia & expect no reaction to NATO expansion.

    That is also a very generalising statement. You are all over the place. What exactly are you trying to say.

    The CIS membership isn't something written in stone and is subject to change.

    Nothin is, as I pointed out about affiliations and why humans aren't simple animals.

    Russia only became hostile in response to Georgia's & Ukraine's actions, & her position is healthy, not rotten.

    Russia became hostile in response to Georgian independence due to paranoia and you call that healthy ? that is all the things wrong about a megalomaniac regime. Everything about that is rotten to its very core.

    Ukraine is no difference. Again paranoia. Grabbed an entire territory interntaionaly recognized part of a foreign country, to prevent something speculative in the future.Why ? purely because of geostrategic reasons. Rotten to the core. Nothing about overextending your reach outside your own country on the pretext of "self-defence" is healthy. Don't be a tool.

    They arrogate to have "historical rights" when clutching and snatching territories from other countries like Ukraine with military force and consequently instigating a sessession in yet another region, to distract and keep the situation unstable so that the entire Crimea issue is forgotten, but when it comes to Georgia, it's efforts to regain control of artificialy seceeded regions, its absolutly detestable ! ....
    But when ethnic groups in Russia declare independence, they get almost nuked.

    Genuinely, how aren't you getting tired of supporting such an insolent level of hypocricy .... ?

    The level of audactity in that regard is so massive, its already comical, if it wasn't so sad for the ones who are suffering.

    But NATO intervention made it worse!


    For the Serbs!

    At least further massacres and attempted genocides were prevented. Better than actualy causing one.

    Neither the Croats nor Serbs actualy deserved any support due to their crimes.

    responses

    There was no "response".

    Stop trying to find excuses and justifications for Hitlers attack on the Soviet Union, part of his Lebensraum im Osten strategy. That's dense.

    Your arguments have become so desperate that we've reached a new level of special ....


    I heard that his book was considered outdated in Germany by 1939

    wow, how about actualy read those topics ....

    with the peace pact signed with the USSR. He knew that Stalin had read it, why sign the pact & give him time to prepare to back stub Germany? Hitler wasn't stupid. But he underestimated Stalin's cunning.

    Stalin made a huge strategic error in deploying his army and aerodromes so close to the border and that's exactly what the Germans needed, especialy knowing the state of the Russian forces. The Germans weren't stupid in the regard that the Pact allowed them to exchange officers and troops to study eachother's military capabilities and Germany prepared in earnest already taking into account that most Soviet armies up to the initialy envisioned A-A line would be completly overwhelmed withing just 3-6 months. The only strategic mistake they made was laying out a plan that focused on taking Moscow. Hitler correctly assessed consequently that the Caucasus oil fields should have been a primary target instead.

    Hitler would have attacked anyway. But for now he needed to keep the Soviets in check to deal with Western Europe. Originaly he wanted to invade Britain but that plan failed miserably. So he turned his entire focuse and energy on the East to proceed with Lebenraum instead. The Soviets did not provoke anything, unless you count their mere existence as provocation. That would suit the Nazi narrative.

    Stalin's baltic expansion was also a response to the German ambitions and especialy invasion of Poland. He was paranoid about Hitler and saw Leningrad threatened by a potential attack of the Wehrmacht. Does not in any way justify the cheeky demands to Finnland and consequent Winter War, but just saying.

    Attacking USSR unprovoked & opening a 2nd front was the last thing he needed.

    You say that, as if that didn't happen .....  care to actualy educate yourself on WW2 and history ? Rolling Eyes

    Just the mere fact the Germans repeatedly postponed their invasion and the Soviets committed no act of aggression or provocation whatsoever and were caught with their pants down in 1940, completly refutes what you and some other ppl are trying to propose.

    The Red Army was better prepared for its own offensive that historians realize.


    Oh sure, but of course you know more than historians.

    The myth that they didn't have time to rearm was to hide huge losses in captured tanks,etc. that were concentrated so close to the border for advance.

    No. That's a myth. I've actualy read about those theories in several books and it's what they are, theories. Often to find justification for Hitler's Lebensraum policy that was established years before the outbreak of war and no, they were not "outdated". They were actively promoted not just by Hitler but the entire Nazi high echelon. But sure, keep playing that ignorant flute.

    It wasn't just him who enforced the five year plans subsequently but the vast majority of the communist party that demanded heavy industrialization to meet Western standards for quick capital. People always blame just him. It is never one man. It was a collective plan worked out and proposed by the Gosplan and unilaterally decided to be implemented union wide.

    Nicolas II was also believed to be the kind tzar.


    who is saying that Stalin was kind .... ?

    Stalin set the direction & others were following orders lest they be sent to GULAG or worse

    Uhm nope. Like mentioned, those plans were created and proposed by the Gosplan in the first place on demand of the communist party for quick capital by heavy industry base to immitate the West. Stalin approved of it and enforced it. Nobody says the consequent famine was great, but that's a historical fact. The Soviets collectively bit in their own asses. But then again, if they hadn't, the war with Nazi Germany would have gone dramaticaly wrong.

    To Russia's security it's still valid.


    There is literay no validity in it whatsoever. Self defence is valid. Overreaching strategic and political influence not. No matter if we are talking about Russia or USA.
     
    Many civilians & POWs were executed, others forced to leave E. Ukraine.

    None of that ( if true at all to begin with ) meets the format of either genocide, nor attempted genocide and ethnic cleansing or attempted ethnic cleansing.

    If politicaly motivated massacres happened, like execution of officials, POWs etc, those are still massacres in a different sense than purposefully perpetrated against ethnic groups or peoples.

    Media outlets that inflate single incidents like that are not worth even consideration. Even less so when ppl repeat the exact same nonsense instead of actualy looking up the meaning of words and wheter or not it was true in the first place.

    Please learn the definitions because you are abusing those terms and frankly it's highly disrespectful towards actual genocides and ethnic cleansings.

    ....should have known better.

    I agree. Those "peacekeepers" were never neutral to begin with. They took side, armed, trained and assisted the rebels many years before the war, what completly eliminates any validity of a peacekeeping mandate.

    No, there r other means to punish it!

    Care to explain ?

    The difference is how they came about. The West sent its mercenaries to Georgia & Ukraine 1st

    The entire Georgian conflict literaly began with Russian mercenaries sent over the border.
    If you are talking about 2008 .... what mercenaries ? I have heard of such claims from Russia, but there was never a single evidence to support it. They showed bodies of Georgian soldiers claiming those were Americans but they were so obviously not, that they dropped that nonsense later. Same with the alleged involvment of a US citizen because they presented a random passport.

    Ukraine ? right buddy.

    If it wasn't for fresh Russian mercenaries the UA wouldn't have been beaten back in 2014. That was not a response to "Western mercs", that was an assault on the UA. Western mercenaries followed in response.

    Mincing & twisting words again!

    At least I'm not trying to twist world history  Rolling Eyes

    They r consistent with their foreign policy

    They sure are ....

    while the West is consistent in its hypocrisy.

    Russia is more consistent in both, which doesn't make things better for their case.

    What "documentary proof" - conspiracies ? lmao

    If she does it, it's not w/o good reasons

    Please call it what it is. It aren't "good reasons", it are reasons. Good reasons would imply Russia was directly threatened or attacked and there was no unprovoked violation of rights and borders. Which there obviously were.

    What evidence can u provide to support ur statements?

    I haven't stated anything you won't find in your precious wiki. An online encyclopedia may not be academic but at least those are actualy researched. Online essays ( that don't even care to provide any valid reference or any at all, or provide dubious made up "evidence" from top to bottom, are not educational sources ). They are full fledged bias and PR. Just because it has a Western or Eastern tag doesn't mean it isn't Eastern or Western PR .... learn to understand that.

    Who was to benefit from NATO expansion

    All the countries who seek protection. Too easy.

    , BMD around Russia & China

    Oh please .... every country surrounding Russia and China have every right to defend themselves as long as they remain within their borders and don't actively promote war with either of those countries. Japan is as equaly treathened by Chinese ambitions as anyone else, including Russia.

    Why does Russia fill Kaliningrad ( Königsberg ) with BMDs, right between Poland's door frame ? another historical injustice btw. If Russia is such a strong defender of justice, why not give it back to the Germans or at least Poles ?

    , coups in Kiev & Tbilisi, as well as earlier regime changes in L. America, Iraq, Iran & Afghanistan? Certainly not Russia & China!


    Right. I wonder why Russia supports and allies itself only with oppressive regimes then. Certainly not because the US took away all the good ones and poor Russia has run out of choices .... you gotta admit, that's silly. It's all in Russia's choice how they behave and are perceived and treated. What they commit is on themselves. Don't act like everyone who points out such a simple fact of life, was as enemy and claiming something outrageous.

    China doesn't care about such petty crimes because it's not in a position to change regimes ( they may try, doubt it will ever work unless we are talking about North Korea - even that, China can't achieve ) and also not beneficial in their current foreign policy. China is currently developing better than both even if its just perceived as superficial by the others.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:49 pm

    What exactly are you trying to say.
    They thought it would go well if they break the pledge not to expand East & that Russia won't view it as a threat.
    Also, those same BMD missile interceptor launchers can be used by LACMs. Russia has every right to be vigilant, given her geography & history.
    Russia became hostile in response to Georgian independence due to paranoia and you call that healthy? that is all the things wrong about a megalomaniac regime. Everything about that is rotten to its very core.
    Ukraine is no difference. Again paranoia. Grabbed an entire territory interntaionaly recognized part of a foreign country, to prevent something speculative in the future.Why? purely because of geostrategic reasons. Rotten to the core. Nothing about overextending your reach outside your own country on the pretext of "self-defence" is healthy. Don't be a tool.
    Russia itself got independent from the USSR, & has no problem with Georgia's & Ukraine's independence per se. It's what they do with it that matters, as they r neighbors in strategically important & unstable areas. If Russia is rotten, then Georgia & Ukraine stink, & they r being used as tools to destabilize & weaken Russia. Such a huge country with few natural defenses must think in geostrategic terms. They r not overextending their reach- taking Tbilisi & all of Ukraine would be, which they avoided. https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/geopolitics-russia-permanent-struggle
    Now Georgia, Ukraine, not to mention Azerbaijan & Armenia with their territorial disputes can't join NATO- mission accomplished!
    They arrogate to have "historical rights" when clutching and snatching territories from other countries like Ukraine with military force and consequently instigating a secession in yet another region, to distract and keep the situation unstable so that the entire Crimea issue is forgotten, but when it comes to Georgia, it's efforts to regain control of artificially seceded regions, its absolutely detestable! But when ethnic groups in Russia declare independence, they get almost nuked.
    It's all in response to the US sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. W/o local support, Donbass, S. Ossetia & Abhkazia wouldn't have declared their own independence; they don't care much of what others think of Crimea.
    If they allow the ethnic groups in Russia to declare independence, the country will fall apart. It's not Georgia or Ukraine- w/o N. Caucasus, Crimea, Kaliningrad (it's a war prize & they won't give it back voluntarily, just like the Kurils), Ural & Siberia, the European part of Russia will be indefensible & the economy in the gutter:
    Had Russia lost Chechnya, its eastern flank would have been driven out of the Caucasus completely, leaving it without a geopolitical anchor. ..It can be said that no one intends to invade Russia. From the Russian point of view, history is filled with dramatic changes of intention, particularly in the West. The unthinkable occurs to Russia once or twice a century. ..
    Russia does hold the northern Caucasus, but it no longer boasts a deep penetration of the mountains, including Georgia and Armenia. Without those territories Russia cannot consider this flank secure. ..
    Russia's loss of Ukraine and Moldova allows both the intrusion of other powers and the potential rise of a Ukrainian rival on its very doorstep. Powers behind the Carpathians are especially positioned to take advantage of this political geography. ..From the Russian point of view, creating a sphere of influence that would return Russia to its relatively defensible imperial boundaries is imperative. https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/geopolitics-russia-permanent-struggle
    This support for the Russian nation remains powerful, despite the existence of diverse ethnic groups throughout the country. https://www.businessinsider.com/10-maps-that-explain-russias-strategy-2016-1#-12
    For the Serbs!
    And other ethnic groups' civilians who got killed/maimed in those NATO bombings!
    At least further massacres and attempted genocides were prevented.
    If the West was so concerned, it could also intervene in Indonesia, Indian Kashmir, Congo/Zaire, Rwanda, Cambodia & Burma/Myanmar, instead of only in the Balkans, Iraq (where 100s of Ks died from their sanctions), Sudan, Libya & Syria, allegedly "to protect civilians". In fact, those 6 former colonies can thank the West for most of what's been happening there since they got their independence. Today, they support paranoid anti-Iran S. Arabia & the UAE in their bombing & blockade of Yemen, & don't give a damn about all those civilians being killed/maimed there.
    Their crocodile tears won't fool me nor many others.
    Russia does a better job at it in Donbass & provides humanitarian aid to those that can't leave. But the West provides instructors, sends supplies & arms to the criminal Ukrainian regime's army in Donbass instead.
    Stalin made a huge strategic error in deploying his army and aerodromes so close to the border and that's exactly what the Germans needed, especially knowing the state of the Russian forces.
    He did so he could to attack 1st at the right moment- there's no other explanation for it! Those Army units had only maps of German occupied Europe, not of the W. USSR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1nRvAQH1fg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ox_SQwcouc
    Hitler would have attacked anyway. But for now he needed to keep the Soviets in check to deal with Western Europe. Originally he wanted to invade Britain but that plan failed miserably.
    He could have achieved more by not attacking; German colonists were in Russia since the 1800s & more could come & help Russia develop. He also admired the British Empire & allowed them to evacuate Dunkirk, hoping then that they would leave him alone & sue for peace. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill,_Hitler_and_the_Unnecessary_War
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0Nt14AImq0
    Oh sure, but of course you know more than historians.
    Not all of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ox_SQwcouc
    Mr. Resun (V. Suvorov) can't be accused of loving Hitler nor the USSR & Russia!
    ..Germans repeatedly postponed their invasion..
    they were busy in the Balkans, & it doesn't mean they planned to invade in 1939 after the non-aggression pact was signed.
    None of that ( if true at all to begin with ) meets the format of either genocide, nor attempted genocide and ethnic cleansing or attempted ethnic cleansing.
    This term is used more broadly now, but the essence is the same.
    Care to explain?
    with trade sanctions, travel restrictions, direct flights, & suing in international courts.
    They showed bodies of Georgian soldiers claiming those were Americans but they were so obviously not, that they dropped that nonsense later. ..
    The entire Georgian conflict literally began with Russian mercenaries sent over the border.
     If there's going to be a fight anyway, strike 1st! Continue to rely on NATO:
    The Georgians gave us all they had, and we gave them crap.
    https://nypost.com/2008/08/18/devil-sent-down-to-georgia/

    To be even more objective, & in line with ur arguments:
    Under the presidency of Columbia University–educated Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia launched vigorous bids for membership in the EU and NATO, and has contributed troops to the missions in both Afghanistan and Iraq. ..
    Moscow’s interests in Georgia are largely motivated by post-imperial resentment and not humanitarian concern for the well-being of Abkhazians and Ossetians; its recognition of Abkhazian and South Ossetian “independence” is in violation of international law, as is its building permanent military bases in both territories; and it continues to station troops on sovereign Georgian land in violation of an EU ceasefire. http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/daze-war-russia-georgia-conflict-film
    The US/NATO/Israel can violate the international law in the Balkans, Libya & the ME, but Russia can't when defending her interests & correcting mistakes of Soviet dictators in its own backyard. Who r they kidding? Certainly not the ex-KGB rear colonel & lawyer Putin!  U can thank Saakashvili for all that "wisdom" he gained at Columbia University! But all this would pale in comparison had Georgia was allowed to join NATO, triggering an all out Russian invasion! From this angle, & with morals aside, it can be said that Georgia been lucky so far!
    What "documentary proof"- conspiracies?
    u can dismiss them as such, but Georgia's plans to join NATO didn't start in 2008, & it isn't "a conspiracy" to any1, on both sides of the Atlantic!
    An online encyclopedia may not be academic but at least those are actually researched.
    those WP pages have references to academic & other sources.
    All the countries who seek protection.
    Austria, Sweden & Finland also had wars with Russia but wisely chosen not to join NATO. Miraculously, they don't feel so threatened; Georgia could follow their example for its own good! Her actions turned into a self fulfilled prophecy!
    What they commit is on themselves.
    The same can be said about Georgia & Ukraine. When u point a finger at some1, ur 3 other fingers point back at u.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:17 am

    For the Serbs!

    At least further massacres and attempted genocides were prevented. Better than actualy causing one.

    Neither the Croats nor Serbs actualy deserved any support due to their crimes.

    Hahahahaha... NATO intervened because they claimed the Serbs were massacring Albanians, yet after the war they could not find all the graves of these dead Albanians... in fact the KLA admitted that they provoked the Serbs by staging attacks near Albanian villages that would not support the KLA so that any reprisals were directed at the neutral village.

    The real genocide didn't start until the war ended and the Albanians took control... I remember Madeline Allbright telling them not to act the way the Serbs did... didn't really seem to stop them...

    It seems Serbs can do no right and Albanians can do no wrong as far as NATO is concerned... and they would put Russia with Serbia and Georgia with Albanian so you will fit right in to NATO.

    Look forward to your governments reaction when the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia vote to become part of the Russian Federation though...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:47 am

    Indeed, the history of NATO armed "humanitarian intervention & support" there could be a good teacher for Georgia (& many others, for that matter):
    James Bissett, Canadian Ambassador to Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania, wrote in 2001 that media reports indicate that "as early as 1998, the Central Intelligence Agency assisted by the British Special Air Service were arming and training Kosovo Liberation Army members in Albania to foment armed rebellion in Kosovo. (...) The hope was that with Kosovo in flames NATO could intervene ...". According to Tim Judah, KLA representatives had already met with American, British, and Swiss intelligence agencies in 1996, and possibly "several years earlier". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Foreign_support
    According to a 2001 report by Human Rights Watch (HRW):
    The KLA was responsible for serious abuses... including abductions and murders of Serbs and ethnic Albanians considered collaborators with the state. Elements of the KLA are also responsible for post-conflict attacks on Serbs, Roma, and other non-Albanians, as well as ethnic Albanian political rivals... widespread and systematic burning and looting of homes belonging to Serbs, Roma, and other minorities and the destruction of Orthodox churches and monasteries... combined with harassment and intimidation designed to force people from their homes and communities... elements of the KLA are clearly responsible for many of these crimes.
    The KLA engaged in tit-for-tat attacks against Serbs in Kosovo, reprisals against ethnic Albanians who "collaborated" with the Serbian government, and bombed police stations and cafes known to be frequented by Serb officials, killing innocent civilians in the process. Most of its activities were funded by drug running, though its ties to community groups and Albanian exiles gave it local popularity. The exact number of victims of the KLA is not known. According to a Serbian government report, the KLA had killed and kidnapped 3,276 people of various ethnic descriptions including some Albanians. From 1 January 1998 to 10 June 1999 the KLA killed 988 people and kidnapped 287; in the period from 10 June 1999 to 11 November 2001, when NATO took control in Kosovo, 847 were reported to have been killed and 1,154 kidnapped. This comprised both civilians and security force personnel. Of those killed in the first period, 335 were civilians, 351 soldiers, 230 police and 72 were unidentified. By nationality, 87 of the killed civilians were Serbs, 230 Albanians, and 18 of other nationalities. Following the withdrawal of Serbian and Yugoslav security forces from Kosovo in June 1999, all casualties were civilians, the vast majority being Serbs.According to Human Rights Watch, as "many as one thousand Serbs and Roma have been murdered or have gone missing since 12 June 1999." A Serbian court sentenced 9 former KLA members for murdering 32 non-Albanian civilians. In the same case, another 35 civilians are missing while 153 were tortured and released. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Reported_abuses  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Kidnappings_and_summary_executions
    On 14 May 1999, NATO aircraft bombed a column of Albanian refugees near Koriša. An operation during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, at least 87 were killed and 60 wounded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kori%C5%A1a_bombing
    The Lužane bus bombing occurred on May 1, 1999 during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, when NATO missiles targeting a bridge in Kosovo hit a bus. The bus was hit on the Lužane north of Pristina. On that day, 46 civilians of Serb and Albanian ethnicity were killed. Among the victims were 14 children. One section plunged off the bridge into the river below. Amnesty International believes that NATO did not always meet its legal obligation in selection targets of attack, one of which includes bombing of this bridge in Lužane, where NATO forces failed to suspend the attack after it was evident that they had struck the civilians. The bus (Niš-Ekspres) was on a regular express service, linking Pristina and Niš. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%C5%BEane_bus_bombing
    The Bombing of Albanian refugees near Gjakova occurred on 14 April 1999 during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, when NATO planes accidentally bombed refugees on a twelve-mile stretch of road between the towns of Gjakova and Deçan in western Kosovo. 73 Kosovo Albanian civilians were killed. Among the victims were 16 children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Albanian_refugees_near_Gjakova
    Both Serbs and Albanians were killed in 90 Human Rights Watch-confirmed incidents in which civilians died as a result of NATO bombing. It reported that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the NATO airstrikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force
    On April 12, 1999, NATO airstrikes struck a railway bridge in Grdelica, hitting a passenger train on the Niš - Preševo line. According to Večernje Novosti, 15 of the killed civilians were identified, a large number of passengers were classified as "missing".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force#April_12,_1999:_Bombing_in_southern_Serbia
    But it didn't stop then:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Kosovo#Aftermath_of_Kosovo_War

    Back in Georgia, Prosecutor's office proved the involvement of Saakashvili in the murder of oppositionist Patarkatsishvili https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3072901

    So much for his "leadership" & credibility. He's also a war criminal. If not for his desire of Georgia in NATO/EU, that war in 2008 may not have happened at all!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:28 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add pic.)
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:16 am

    More on Stalin's plans:
    The army was preparing for the second liberation campaign in Europe, and not for defense, the continuation and completion of the World Revolution, which Stalin entrusted to voice Zhukov at a meeting of the top military leadership.
    Obviously, the very next day, Hitler found out about this doctrine, speeding up the development of the Barbarossa plan, maintaining friendly relations. This led to the fact that the command of the border troops of the NKVD banned to bring the units on alert, and the troops met the war asleep. All mobilization plans were developed in the spirit of the offensive and the conduct of hostilities on foreign territory, there were not even maps of the deployment of troops, for their uselessness.
    ..In late October 1940, Mussolini attacked Greece and was mired in a war. Britain sent a 56,000-strong expeditionary force to Greece, which forced the Fuhrer to come to help. Germany deployed 33 divisions and delivered a simultaneous strike on Greece and Yugoslavia. The war was short-lived, but the start of Operation Barbarossa had to be postponed for a month, which became critical for the German troops during the battle for Moscow. ..
    Politicians and political scientists are surprised - the neighbors who were liberated from fascism, for many years [we] fed them with cheap oil, helped them build enterprises, armed them, gave loans, and [they] soon, in fact, became [our] opponents by joining NATO. http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-10-19/11_1018_collusion.html?print=Y
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:11 am

    Why Transcaucasia boils
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2509480.html

    Update: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2523143.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:13 pm

    Anti-Russian words, words, words - in Georgia
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2531456.html

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    Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

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