Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3771
    Points : 3857
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:52 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Czar Peter III squandered Russian victories against Prussia, together with the lives of thousands of the Russian troops, for no real gain.

    How did his fruitless ending the Russia's involvement in the war against Prussia benefit Russia?


    Also contrast Putin's extremely generous treatment of even a hostile Ukraine, with his predatorial pricing of the natural gas Russia sells to Poland.



    Perhaps, but Peter III had a vision and he pursued that vision, and was getting the results he wanted

    Putin has just tried the same failed policy for 20 years now. He still thinks Germany will elect a new Schroder or whatever, but times have changed.

    I give Putin points for tenacity, but common' man, change your strategy already.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 3307
    Points : 3303
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:36 pm

    moving Russian forces from the border of Russia and Belarus and Ukraine to the borders of Belarus and the Ukraine and the EU makes very little difference for Russia in terms of military or economic or political terms.
    it will stop & reverse NATO  expansion & create a buffer/security zone that will buy time in the event of another invasion/subversion from/by the West.

    In terms of military... any third world war and they will nuke and be nuked by the west whether those missiles come from ukrainian or georgian territory is meaningless...
    unless it's a hybrid war like the current being waged against Syria, China, Venezuela & Iran: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2825782.html

    And in terms of politics do you think the EU and US will suddenly become friends over this sort of thing?
    they r adversarial by default & their own admission anyway. What does Russia have to lose by not being nice to them & their cronies?

    First of all, why would Russia want to become an empire with those components returned to them...and Brezinski can go fuck himself...
    It never lost its imperial status; regaining control of those republics will better preserve the 3rd Rome & protect all those Russian native speakers in the former USSR. FYI, Brezinski died last year.

    ..sending stuff by ship is actually much more efficient and cheaper than by land or air so it really isn't that big a deal.
    but it's still harder to defend the enclave w/o direct access by land.

    And thirdly Russia helping keep borders secure with Afghanistan is not about empire, it is about stopping the filth early instead of waiting till it reaches Russia and has to be dealt with there.
    there r also many locals, some related to Afghans, that can be used to destabilize those stans & conduct terrorist attacks in Russia itself, just like Chechens done in the Caucasus & elsewhere in the RF.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    PhSt
    PhSt

    Posts : 164
    Points : 170
    Join date : 2019-04-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  PhSt on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:56 am

    Russia doesn't need to destroy the US

    But the US is constantly finding ways to bog down Russia with the ultimate aim of Destroying it, Russia cannot live a normal existence if America is always there to slap Russia in the face in a daily basis.

    the US is doing that itself

    I dont see the US collapsing, it needs to happen now. Why are you against the idea of a Soviet style collapse of the US? Are you afraid that the ensuing worldwide changes will somewhat affect your current lifestyle? If your current luxurious lifestyle is made possible by the continued existence of the US, then people like you are part of the problem.

    what does Russia get from say Georgia or Belarus or the Ukraine or one or more of the 'stans?

    The most valuable resource of all, Land. And with a carefully planned policy of Russification, there will be no "Belarussian, Ukrainian or Astanis to talk about because the people of these new territories will be "Russians".

    Would reforming the Soviet Union really benefit Russia and Russians... it seems to me that they had rather better living standards than many Russians in far away places... but why? To keep them in the Union? Better to drop those albatrosses and focus on improving things for Russians first... MRGA... Make Russia Great Again... and to be honest if you get that right... they will be at your feet begging to be part of it...

    Again you are missing the point. If the population of Ukraine have been Russified then these people will be Russians so what are you talking about making improvements to Russians first? At present, the people of Karelia are "Russians" but give them independence and with the help of Western brainwashing in a decade these people will consider themselves as "Karelians" and not Russians. A good example of a successful policy of assimilation is when the Arabs conquered the middle east and Africa during the Islamic conquests. Look at how natives in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya etc consider themselves as "Arabs" when in reality they are their own ethnic group. Another good example is Manchuria. At present the people living in North East China consider themselves as Han Chinese, even though in the past, they are Manchurians. If ever the Japanese has succeeded in carving out Manchuria from China, then people in this region will consider themselves as "Manchurian" as opposed to "Chinese".

    They do have their own history and customs


    It was a mistake to promote this idea, The Government back then should have went ahead with an aggressive policy of Russification. Another big blunder by the Soviets is by allowing self determination of these so called Republics through referendums, such approach can be easily exploited by Russia's enemies.

    The alternative was to keep doing as the Europeans did, and we saw how the European empires ended in the 50s and 60s. Russia would have shared the same fate.

    Americans brutalized the native Indians, America is still around, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc still has the British Queen as their "Head of state", The Chinese has an ongoing Sinicization policy in Tibet, Xinjiang, etc, China is still going strong, Indonesians are Islamizing and suppressing their ethnic minorities, Indonesia is nowhere close to breaking up. Yugoslavia could have exterminated any separatist movements in the country if only NATO pigs did not meddled.

    Historically Russification has succeded in expanding the Russian ethnicity and core territory, but it is a discriminatory policy of the past that aims to attack the common heritage of mankind - part of which are of course world cultures, languages and so on.

    This is the problem, you are advocating for a humane approach, but Russia's enemies are okay using any methods they can to achieve victory. Russia needs to adopt the same if not more aggressive methods to win. Never mind the means, What is important is the End goal.

    And it backfires. The policy of Russification towards the end of the 19th century had a big influence on the independence movements in Poland, Finland and birthed the Ukrainian one.

    But all these movements have been encouraged by Russia's enemies. Without any dark schemes from the British or France or all other rivals, Russia could have easily crushed these movements and forced them to submission. After a generation of Russification, these people will be brainwashed enough to consider themselves as Russians, once they think and believe they are Russians then it is mission accomplished, all Russia has to do is maintain it that way. Period.

    The most important thing is to create an efficient advanced economy and a good governance system. This will allow Russia to keep its territory and draw other countries closer to it.

    This only works in a perfect world. But with America and NATO around, it will be very difficult to make these goals achievable because NATO will continue to generate trouble for Russia to keep it from growing.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 3307
    Points : 3303
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:31 am

    If they start Russification as u suggest, they wouldn't be any different from Ukrainian nationalists who tried Ukrainianization in the Transcarpatia, Donbass, Crimea & S. Ukraine/Malorossia. There r many nationalities with ancient history like Yakuts & Buryats, etc. that have Russian names but still retain their customs, languages, & cultures. Besides, Gypsies, Jews, Ossetians, Georgians & Armenians living in Russia for centuries didn't completely assimilate. Such a policy would be a mistake similar to what Turkey tried with her Kurds.
    OTH, the Russian settlers' descendents in Siberia consider themselves as Siberians, not Russians- over the centuries, they intermarried & absorbed local customs & beliefs; Russifying them may lead to more separatism.
    PhSt
    PhSt

    Posts : 164
    Points : 170
    Join date : 2019-04-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  PhSt on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:43 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If they start Russification as u suggest, they wouldn't be any different from Ukrainian nationalists who tried Ukrainianization in the Transcarpatia, Donbass, Crimea & S. Ukraine/Malorossia. There r many nationalities with ancient history like Yakuts & Buryats, etc. that have Russian names but still retain their customs, languages, & cultures. Besides, Gypsies, Jews, Ossetians, Georgians & Armenians living in Russia for centuries didn't completely assimilate. Such a policy would be a mistake similar to what Turkey tried with her Kurds.
    OTH, the Russian settlers' descendents in Siberia consider themselves as Siberians, not Russians- over the centuries, they intermarried & absorbed local customs & beliefs; Russifying them may lead to more separatism.

    Yep when Russia does it its destined to fail.

    But if its America, a Californian consider themselves as American, a Texan consider themselves as American, a native in the reserves consider themselves as American, But a Russian in Siberia identify himself as a Siberian. So America always wins and Russia always lose right?

    BTW: The Turks have succeeded in making ethnic Greeks in the western part of Turkey to think they are Turks.

    And because of sustained Western propaganda and brainwashing, Ethnic Han in Taiwan now thinks they are Taiwanese and not Chinese. But when its the other way around that will benefit Russia or China suddenly it is not feasible and is only destined to fail
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 4023
    Points : 4003
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:56 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If they start Russification as u suggest, they wouldn't be any different from Ukrainian nationalists who tried Ukrainianization in the Transcarpatia, Donbass, Crimea & S. Ukraine/Malorossia. There r many nationalities with ancient history like Yakuts & Buryats, etc. that have Russian names but still retain their customs, languages, & cultures. Besides, Gypsies, Jews, Ossetians, Georgians & Armenians living in Russia for centuries didn't completely assimilate. Such a policy would be a mistake similar to what Turkey tried with her Kurds.
    OTH, the Russian settlers' descendents in Siberia consider themselves as Siberians, not Russians- over the centuries, they intermarried & absorbed local customs & beliefs; Russifying them may lead to more separatism.

    No they don't.  Where the hell did you read that bullshit?

    Do you just make shit up for the sake of it?

    They even distinctly state that they are Russian ethnic in census, even if they are actually not ethnic russian for many of them. Hence why the nation consists of about 81% Russian ethnicity.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23001
    Points : 23543
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:10 am

    it will stop & reverse NATO expansion & create a buffer/security zone that will buy time in the event of another invasion/subversion from/by the West.

    Any attempt by the west to invade Russia... whether from Poland or the Baltic states across the Ukraine or Belarus or from those areas will result in NATO forces being obliterated as they form up... to invade Russia they would need an enormous ground force which they could not hide the assembly and creation of... preemptive self defence would make it carnage and would render NATO forces incapable of normal operations for a decade.
    Whether the invasion started on the borders with Poland and the baltic states with the Ukraine and Belarus, or the borders of Ukraine and Belarus and Russia would make very little difference... those massed up forces will be obliterated as soon as they moved... this is not Europe 1941... the Russians will know what is happening even if it is because a few NATO soldiers realise this is suicide and warn the Russians of the orders they have been given.

    unless it's a hybrid war like the current being waged against Syria, China, Venezuela & Iran

    The physical boundaries of Russian political and military and economic reach really don't matter in cyber or hybrid conflicts either... what the west did to Syria and Venezuela they can't do to Russia... they are trying all the time of course but it doesn't work.

    they r adversarial by default & their own admission anyway. What does Russia have to lose by not being nice to them & their cronies?

    If Russia suddenly becomes unfriendly and difficult to work with it will do more to earn the image created by western propaganda than anything the west could possibly do to hurt Russia and her interests.

    Just the same the US can't withdraw from everything and just look after its own interests because its power would collapse and the isolation would be enforced by everyone else...

    It never lost its imperial status; regaining control of those republics will better preserve the 3rd Rome & protect all those Russian native speakers in the former USSR. FYI, Brezinski died last year.

    Never lost its imperial status in the west because it is a derogatory term they don't like to apply to themselves even though it is vastly more applicable to what they do and how they operate... I mean look at America in Iraq today... America says it is fighting for freedom and democracy and projecting peace in to the region by refusing to leave when asked... every body else knows it is a occupation with the US sending more imperial storm troopers in to enforce their will...

    And good news that censored is dead... must look him up if I am ever in the neighbourhood so I can piss on his grave... like he deserves... hopefully Hilary Clinton and Madeline Allbright can be buried next to him... preferably while they are still alive.... Twisted Evil

    but it's still harder to defend the enclave w/o direct access by land.

    Only during war time... and now they can send tactical nuclear weapons by the thousands there on all sorts of long range missiles that will be cheap to make... cruise missiles are like cheap little drones... the expensive precise guidance is not needed with a nuke warhead designed to destroy a target the size of a city... even inertial guidance would be good enough for most targets... like London and Paris and Bonn or Berlin... or all of the above and more.

    there r also many locals, some related to Afghans, that can be used to destabilize those stans & conduct terrorist attacks in Russia itself, just like Chechens done in the Caucasus & elsewhere in the RF.

    Russia doesn't have a land border with Afghanistan so whether the crazies are contained in Afghanistan or leak into former soviet republics it really doesn't matter.... find and identify them and close those borders to prevent access to Russia... it makes little difference to Russia whether that hard border is between a stan and Afghanistan or that stan and Russia... borders are borders... some of the problems might walk over the border but much more will fly or sail or drive from a completely unexpected direction... Russia has to deal with any contingency.... and destabilising those stans can happen whether they are part of a new soviet union with Russia or not, and actually if they manage to destabilise them the chances of hurting Russia becomes much higher because security wont be as high there...

    But the US is constantly finding ways to bog down Russia with the ultimate aim of Destroying it, Russia cannot live a normal existence if America is always there to slap Russia in the face in a daily basis.

    The behaviour of the west in general and the US in particular has taught the Russians that trade is possible but friendship is not likely... in your life there are people you don't like... sometimes you can take action to remove the problem... if you don't like the local barber then find another place to get your hair cut. Of course sometimes you wont even know... you might never meet the owner of the local supermarket and you might never talk to him and find he is pro nazi or some other thing you don't approve of... in which case things will continue anyway... you buy groceries from him.

    The point is that the west and the US are actively trying to find ways to upset or hurt Russia and in doing so are pushing Russia away from them so that is actually good for Russia... Russia can have a normal existence... they just need to become more independent and look for other countries shunned or abused by the west and create a losers club... the amusing thing is that the west is declining but by creating a losers club alternative more countries can grow and develop and access new technology without having to engage or cooperate with the west... which will make them more independent.... when you cut the blood/food supply to a tick or a leech then eventually it starves and dies... or it adapts to eat its own shit... which is what we are seeing now...

    I dont see the US collapsing, it needs to happen now.

    When you see your enemy making a mistake don't interrupt them... the collapse is not inevitable, but if they keep their current course it probably is.

    Why are you against the idea of a Soviet style collapse of the US?

    Well I am not really, but I would prefer to see a Czech republic and Slovakia type split than an actual new civil war... civil wars are brutal and usually much more bloody than wars against other countries.

    But fundamentally I think Hawaii would be better off as its own country rather than a naval base in the middle of the pacific for the US which is what it is... and I suspect a lot of the bible belt conservative christian states don't want to be in the same union as the liberal urbanised democrat states...

    Are you afraid that the ensuing worldwide changes will somewhat affect your current lifestyle?

    It is the Americans that think they are the centre of the universe... not me... I think the elimination of the United States of America would be a good thing world wide... instead of getting their entertainment shipped to us in a flash shiny package we would have to make our own and I suspect we could do much better... but I also know we would enjoy our own propaganda better than we enjoy theirs...

    But it is like food imports for Russia... when it was available cheap available food from the EU made producing food in Russia hard and practically non viable because you couldn't compete with established players. Add some sanctions and Russian food production has become strong... if the EU food is ever allowed back in (up to them of course so probably not now) then they will face stiff competition from Russian producers with the advantage of the ruble on their side... in fact as I said the EU probably wont be able to lift restrictions ever again because if they did to try to get their producers back in to the Russian food market the Russian producers might flood the EU market with cheap quality food that the EU companies can't compete with... instead of the EU making money feeding Russia the Russians might end up feeding Europe...

    If your current luxurious lifestyle is made possible by the continued existence of the US, then people like you are part of the problem.

    My luxurious lifestyle... you know me so well... NOT.

    My problem is I have way too much stuff...

    ...except semi auto rifles of course...

    The most valuable resource of all, Land. And with a carefully planned policy of Russification, there will be no "Belarussian, Ukrainian or Astanis to talk about because the people of these new territories will be "Russians".

    It already has more land than it knows what to do with or to manage... and to be honest it is going to cost a fortune to fix those countries and drag them up to standard and keep them there... and the people have the potential to be a total pain in the ass... it really just is not worth it.


    Again you are missing the point. If the population of Ukraine have been Russified then these people will be Russians so what are you talking about making improvements to Russians first?

    If is the biggest word in the English language... if they were Russian then there wouldn't be a problem they would already want to join the Russian federation.

    Some prefer to speak Russian... which I can understand... if some coup happened here in New Zealand and the new nutters in power made up of the greens and the maori parties decided that english is the language of colonialism and that english is now banned and you can only speak Maori then I would probably behave the same way some people in the Ukraine did... that is not to say I want New Zealand to become part of the UK... I am not British... I am a New Zealander. Not really interested in killing anyone over that, but push comes to shove I will be speaking english... or at least what we call english.... Twisted Evil

    At present, the people of Karelia are "Russians" but give them independence and with the help of Western brainwashing in a decade these people will consider themselves as "Karelians" and not Russians.

    Why can't they be both?

    Ukrainians living in the Ukraine have no reason to become Russia citizens except to protect themselves from their own government... if they were really Russian citizens then they would likely move to Russia... they are not pro Russia, they are anti Kiev and the assholes the US admit they installed into power.

    The proof is that Joe Biden withheld funding for the Ukraine to ensure the company his son was paid a salary by (I doubt he actually worked for them), and when exposed by Joe Biden admitting to it in a talk he gave there were no consequences... as US Vice President at the time he had the right to manipulate and control the law and justice system of their little colony Ukraine that they bought and paid for with 5 billion dollars.... that is a lot of cookies, but less when you expand the budget to include Georgian snipers to kill people on both sides to stir things up into a frenzie so no one really uses common sense when making decisons which is why they were such bad decisions... a bit like making gun laws just after a shooting rampage by an idiot...

    But neither can admit that now.

    It was a mistake to promote this idea, The Government back then should have went ahead with an aggressive policy of Russification. Another big blunder by the Soviets is by allowing self determination of these so called Republics through referendums, such approach can be easily exploited by Russia's enemies.

    Any real blunder was similar to the UK with their Brexit referendum.... referendums are just sales and marketing and the best sales and marketing companies know flashy and shiny and not too technical wins the day unless what you are selling is actually any good... in which case you just have to show how your product is better than theirs.

    What the government needed to do was to take more time and educate the public with the real results of breaking up and inevidably being used by the west against the remaining most powerful part (Russia). Also expose western attempts at interference and misinformation so the public was more aware of what they were choosing and what was at stake... if they still choose the west then that is their problem and they will live with the consequences... which they are.

    I am sure if Brits had known what a half arsed mess Brexit would become a lot more would have voted to stay... but the elephant in the room is that if they voted to stay then the next step should have been that the fact that they had the vote in the first place shows the EU is not working for the UK so what sort of changes need to be made to the EU to make it more worth staying within... and I think a few other EU countries might have very much sympathised with that and put in their own two cents and they might have generated enough energy to make some serious and fundamental changes to the EU because it is pretty clear it works better for some countries than for others and sometimes not all the countries like the official line they don't agree with and never got to vote for or against...

    Their problem.

    Americans brutalized the native Indians, America is still around, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc still has the British Queen as their "Head of state", The

    The colonial empire model should have kept Britain at its head, but the Americans kicked them out and so have Canada and Australia and New Zealand. The last three see the Queen of England as their head of state and she is on our money and stamps, but she has no power here except symbolic since the 50s and 60s.

    Ironically the beaten child continues the tradition... Australian and New Zealand troops interfere in Indonesia (East Timor) when it suits us, and of course we have our island protectorates like Samoa and Fiji and various islands and for some time we were shit scared the Russians were coming to take them away.... but now we are scared that the Chinese were going to come and lure them away with money and baubles...

    Yugoslavia could have exterminated any separatist movements in the country if only NATO pigs did not meddled.

    Funny you are anti west but tow the party line... the real removal of ethnic diversity happened after NATO arrived... serb churches thousands of years old caught fire and there was no one there to protect them in Kosovo... after NATO removed Serb forces... and in most of those new countries the serb population dropped dramatically fairly quickly but as a war crime was largely ignored by NATO...

    This is the problem, you are advocating for a humane approach, but Russia's enemies are okay using any methods they can to achieve victory.

    Call me old fashioned but if Russia has to become the US to survive or even win then what the fuck difference does it make if they do... it would be more of the same with a different wrapper. If they can do it while maintaining some integrity and honesty then the improvement will be refreshing and something I would actively encourage... whether it came from Moscow or Washington to be honest... I don't want Russia to win and the west to fail... I want the winner to act more like Russia does now because it is vastly more ethical and moral than the US has been for 80 years. which is not saying a whole huge amount... is it wrong when the snake oil salesman offers you a health tonic to cure all your ails to want to find someone who is actually selling the real thing that does what is promised?

    Russia needs to adopt the same if not more aggressive methods to win. Never mind the means, What is important is the End goal.

    No it isn't... if you are protecting a lady from some animals if you end up getting down there in the mud shagging and biting your way through their number to get them under control I don't think many women will wait for you to clean yourself up after you had bitten and shagged to death all the dogs that were attacking you...

    Or more practically... if you have to become what you despise to win then what value is there in winning... Lance Armstrong used to be able to say he had won all these bike races... now what he can say is that his cheating with drugs cheated a lot of people out of medals and races they deserved to win... but you are saying not only should Russia take drugs but also hire assassins to kill off anyone that might beat them and then hire guards because once you start hiring assassins then they will too and everything gets harder and much more dangerous... and blurry in terms of who is the good guy.

    But all these movements have been encouraged by Russia's enemies. Without any dark schemes from the British or France or all other rivals, Russia could have easily crushed these movements and forced them to submission. After a generation of Russification, these people will be brainwashed enough to consider themselves as Russians, once they think and believe they are Russians then it is mission accomplished, all Russia has to do is maintain it that way. Period.

    Such weak and easily manipulated people... would they even make good russians... half of them took to Nazism so easily after germany invaded in the 1940s and again now that the EU has taken them over... they readily became anti russian at the drop of a hat... who wants to actively integrate a 5th column into their organisation... and for what benefit... a few more lazy anti establishment losers?

    This only works in a perfect world. But with America and NATO around, it will be very difficult to make these goals achievable because NATO will continue to generate trouble for Russia to keep it from growing.

    But it is working... chinese people are crossing the border to work in farms in Russia, and Russia has almost no debt and a growing economy and is fixing problems as it can... it is now producing its own food and exporting it... producing its own medicines and perhaps soon exporting too, I really don't see what you think they could do different that would make things better for them... the US is turning Russians against them one at a time... ask Maria Butina... and the more the west imposes sanctions the stronger and more independent Russia is becoming... without this isolation Russia would have become part of the west which would have prolonged the west with more resources to ultimately steal... Putin has found a fine balance.... they talk about Russian aggression but only to conceal their own... Russia hasn't moved to NATO borders... Nato borders are coming to them... and Russia being more aggressive would have suffered more... they wouldn't be part of SWIFT and while they have developed alternatives now it would have hurt in the early 2000s for the things happening now to have happened.

    Especially with the US waking up to how vulnerable they are to Irainian weapons and therefore the threat that Russian weapons represent....

    But if its America, a Californian consider themselves as American, a Texan consider themselves as American, a native in the reserves consider themselves as American, But a Russian in Siberia identify himself as a Siberian. So America always wins and Russia always lose right?

    American wet dreams about a separatist Siberia aside there is no actual evidence of this at all... it will remain an american wet dream...

    So America wins because America is asleep and America always wins when it is asleep, but Russia lives in the real world and it is pretty clear that Russia is winning despite having the economy of some tiny country that doesn't have satellites in orbit or hypersonic missiles in testing or nuclear weapons every bit as good as the worlds only super power has...

    And because of sustained Western propaganda and brainwashing, Ethnic Han in Taiwan now thinks they are Taiwanese and not Chinese. But when its the other way around that will benefit Russia or China suddenly it is not feasible and is only destined to fail

    Because you are believing what the western propaganda is telling you... I knew a few Chinese guys from Hong Kong here at university and they considered themselves Chinese... I also worked with a couple of Chinese New Zealanders and they say they are ethnically Chinese but they are Kiwis... what is wrong with that.

    The US looks at Chinese moving from China over the border to Russia and suggesting the Chinese are taking over Siberia... well they put Japanese Americans in internment camps during WWII because they didn't trust their loyalty, but when push comes to shove those Chinese people in Russia will consider themselves Russian... and whether they do or not it doesn't matter... this is not Kosovo... the Russians could go in and arrest all the rebels take their citizenship documents if they have any and anul them and then state they are chinese nationals and deport them back to China.

    There was a story on RT about US vietnam vets moving to Vietnam to live because living costs and medicine is cheaper than in the US... they also mentioned a few American farmers moving to Russia to settle down too... go figure... would not have happened in the 1990s... of course western propaganda wont tell you about that, but it is not like an invasion is happening either.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 5169
    Points : 5296
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  kvs on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:51 am

    Any dreams NATzO has of taking out Russia by military force must rely on a nuclear first strike. The problem with these
    dreams is that they are in acid-induced Technicolor. I hear retarded western politicians and pundits yap about some
    pre-emptive first strike as if Russia's missiles will just sit there waiting to be hit. Because of the supposed surprise factor and
    the use of "stealth" B-2s. What a freaking joke! NATzO decider f*cktards actually believe this shit.

    The only possibility for a first strike is if NATzO can use its spies to sabotage Russian command and control. They couldn't
    do it in the 1990s so they sure as Hell can't do it now. The best NATzO can hope for is that the Russian liberast 5th column
    can be organized well enough to stage a coup. And pigs can fly. Russia isn't Ukraine.

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23001
    Points : 23543
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:54 am

    The problem there is that NATO does not believe what is in front of it... they knew about Kalibr and other weapons but they simply didn't believe the Russian had the C4IR to use them... their use in Syria has proved them wrong... but the sad thing is that they know Russian ballistic and cruise missiles are capable but wont realise they are out of their depth till it is too late and by then we are all in the number two.... wearing totally the wrong shoes.
    avatar
    calripson

    Posts : 223
    Points : 250
    Join date : 2013-10-26

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  calripson on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:26 pm

    kvs wrote:Any dreams NATzO has of taking out Russia by military force must rely on a nuclear first strike.   The problem with these
    dreams is that they are in acid-induced Technicolor.   I hear retarded western politicians and pundits yap about some
    pre-emptive first strike as if Russia's missiles will just sit there waiting to be hit.   Because of the supposed surprise factor and
    the use of "stealth" B-2s.   What a freaking joke!   NATzO decider f*cktards actually believe this shit.    

    The only possibility for a first strike is if NATzO can use its spies to sabotage Russian command and control.   They couldn't
    do it in the 1990s so they sure as Hell can't do it now.   The best NATzO can hope for is that the Russian liberast 5th column
    can be organized well enough to stage a coup.   And pigs can fly.   Russia isn't Ukraine.

    😊

    No one in the West has the slightest inclination to actually militarily attack Russia no more than they had to attack the USSR. That talk is for two reasons: A) Budgets and $$ to defense contractors and B) Psychological Warfare.

    Their experience has shown that offshore bank accounts are a much more efficient method of implementing their goals than military force when it comes to Russia.
    PhSt
    PhSt

    Posts : 164
    Points : 170
    Join date : 2019-04-02

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  PhSt on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:47 pm

    Russia doesn't have a land border with Afghanistan so whether the crazies are contained in Afghanistan or leak into former soviet republics it really doesn't matter

    Russia may not border Afghanistan but if the Islamists expand their influence into Former Soviet stans then Russia will have Afghanistan 2.0 right next to its borders. It will be a tumor that tripled in size. the Soviets allotted the Kazakhs and other central asians way too much territory. Russia needed the steppes for agriculture and facilities like Baikonur.

    The behaviour of the west in general and the US in particular has taught the Russians that trade is possible but friendship is not likely

    For how long do you think this lesson will last in the average Russian's memory? Western Propaganda is strong, continuous and virulent, If left unanswered it has the power to turn people to go against their own country. (turn Russians into Belarussians, Ukranians, Siberians, Primorskians, Sochisians, OR turn Chinese into Hong Kongers, Taiwanese, Manchurians, etc.). Another good example are the Russian liberals and 5th columnists who actively cooperate with the West to dismember Russia.

    the amusing thing is that the west is declining

    You claim this all the time, If they are indeed declining then they shouldn't be able to do the things that they used to do in the past and get away with it. But from what is happening now the west (US) is still capable of committing aggressive actions (meddling, threats, sanctions, outright assassinations, etc) with no dire consequences. When will the US breakup into pieces? in 10 years? 20 years? 100 years?

    he collapse is not inevitable, but if they keep their current course it probably is

    See? So the US can continue to dominate, abuse and enslave the world for many centuries to come and not face any consequences for it. If US is allowed to do this, why not Russia and China?

    Well I am not really, but I would prefer to see a Czech republic and Slovakia type split than an actual new civil war... civil wars are brutal and usually much more bloody than wars against other countries.

    No one is a saint. Why would you care if Americans murder each other? They deserve it. America caused numerous tragic events across the world that resulted in millions of deaths. It is only justified that they suffer their own bloody chapter in history.

    It already has more land than it knows what to do with or to manage

    owning an extra piece of real estate is always positive.

    and to be honest it is going to cost a fortune to fix those countries and drag them up to standard and keep them there

    This is no different from Chechnya. The Rus government transformed the region after years of conflict to become self sustaining and a productive part of Russia.

    Americans kicked them out and so have Canada and Australia and New Zealand. The last three see the Queen of England as their head of state and she is on our money and stamps, but she has no power here except symbolic since the 50s and 60s.

    You are a smart person but you dont seem to see through the facade here. The current British monarch is STILL considered OFFICIALLY as the "Head of State" of the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The monarch is also the "Commander in Chief" of the militaries of these countries. How is this Symbolic? If you are looking for a truly Symbolic/Ceremonial monarch then it will be the Emperor of Japan. additionally the JSDF answers to the Prime minister and not the Emperor.

    Call me old fashioned but if Russia has to become the US to survive or even win then what the fuck difference does it make if they do

    This is what happens when you are only after principles. Russia must win and America must lose. This is what only matters.

    Such weak and easily manipulated people... would they even make good russians... half of them took to Nazism so easily after germany invaded in the 1940s and again now that the EU has taken them over... they readily became anti russian at the drop of a hat... who wants to actively integrate a 5th column into their organisation... and for what benefit... a few more lazy anti establishment losers?

    Again, all of this is because of Superior brainwashing techniques that have been employed by the west. There are 5th columnists and traitors in every country that are willing to forsake their country to hostile invaders. This is a constant fact. Many Chinese collaborated with the Japs during WW2 despite the atrocities that were committed against their own people (Wang Jingwei regime). Manchuria also sided with Imperial Japan. Another good example is Vichy France.
    After the war, when the respective governments of these countries gained control of these renegade territories, they are able to reboot the mentality of the people of these regions and make them good citizens of their countries again. When Russia regains control of Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan (and hopefully the Baltics to secure a land bridge to Kaliningrad), then the government will be able to reprogram the "Thoughts" of the local populace and turn them into ordinary Russian citizens.

    But it is working... chinese people are crossing the border to work in farms in Russia, and Russia has almost no debt and a growing economy and is fixing problems as it can... it is now producing its own food and exporting it... producing its own medicines and perhaps soon exporting too,

    These are all positive steps. But still not enough to give Russia more leverage to use against the West. I understand that Russia have gigantic tasks ahead that will not be achieved overnight, However, accomplishing major economic breakthroughs in 5 years is more preferable than 10 or 15 years. Russia has just passed a law requiring smart phones and other electronic consumer products in Russia to have pre installed Russian app alternatives, hopefully this will help promote growth in Russia's domestic software industry and break Western monopoly in this rapidly growing market. The next big project for the Russian government as part of their Import Substitution program should be to create a Russian Huawei and Russian Toyota. AvtoVAZ is a good domestic car company but its been allowed to be taken over by Renault and has been delisted from the Moscow Exchange, it dont know if it can still be considered a "Russian" company. what a waste.



    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 626
    Points : 624
    Join date : 2015-12-30

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:08 pm

    Czech, Slovak split made no sense. Yes there are some difference in the languages, but the people never wanted to form two separate countries. When I visited Bratislava the locals said that the split was organised by the politicians while the inhabitants never asked for any of this
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 5169
    Points : 5296
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  kvs on Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:57 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Czech, Slovak split made no sense. Yes there are some difference in the languages, but the people never wanted to form two separate countries.  When I visited Bratislava the locals said that the split was organised  by the politicians while the inhabitants never asked for any of this

    It wasn't that clean. The Czechs looked down on the Slovaks as being more backward. Similar to the situation in eastern and western Ukraine. This is
    the result of centuries of Catholic divide and conquer conquest of eastern slavic lands. There is always and east-west split even between assimilated
    lands (Slovaks are Catholics) because the chronology has substantial offsets. In the case of Ukraine the east-west split is extreme because
    the east remained Orthodox. The west as mostly assimilated in the the Catholic realm as Uniates.

    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 5169
    Points : 5296
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  kvs on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:02 pm

    calripson wrote:
    kvs wrote:Any dreams NATzO has of taking out Russia by military force must rely on a nuclear first strike.   The problem with these
    dreams is that they are in acid-induced Technicolor.   I hear retarded western politicians and pundits yap about some
    pre-emptive first strike as if Russia's missiles will just sit there waiting to be hit.   Because of the supposed surprise factor and
    the use of "stealth" B-2s.   What a freaking joke!   NATzO decider f*cktards actually believe this shit.    

    The only possibility for a first strike is if NATzO can use its spies to sabotage Russian command and control.   They couldn't
    do it in the 1990s so they sure as Hell can't do it now.   The best NATzO can hope for is that the Russian liberast 5th column
    can be organized well enough to stage a coup.   And pigs can fly.   Russia isn't Ukraine.

    😊

    No one in the West has the slightest inclination to actually militarily attack Russia no more than they had to attack the USSR. That talk is for two reasons: A) Budgets and $$ to defense contractors and B) Psychological Warfare.

    Their experience has shown that offshore bank accounts are a much more efficient method of implementing their goals than military force when it comes to Russia.

    You spin it as benign. Genocidal blood libel eventually manifests as real war crimes. For example, Rwanda in 1994.
    As for corruption, that is a NATzO fantasy. Both Napoleon and Hitler bleated about this too. Both were rotten to
    the core themselves. Mr. Offhsore Khodorkovsky is a CIA-MI6 tool. Russian offshored money has basically zero
    impact on Russian political reality.

    Propaganda infiltration such as the ludicrous protests over the pension reform does have an impact. Russia's real problem
    is that it has too many west-loving morons who are detached from reality. They think that the west doesn't have the sort
    of pension reform that Putin's government tried to implement and that Americans and Canadians retire at the age of 30.
    This is the BS "thought" that comes from wishes and not research.



    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23001
    Points : 23543
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:36 am

    Russia may not border Afghanistan but if the Islamists expand their influence into Former Soviet stans then Russia will have Afghanistan 2.0 right next to its borders. It will be a tumor that tripled in size. the Soviets allotted the Kazakhs and other central asians way too much territory. Russia needed the steppes for agriculture and facilities like Baikonur.

    Well even assuming that is the case what difference would it make to Russia to occupy and Russify the stans... the real forces pushing that sort of shit come from Turkey and Georgia the the US and Saudi Arabia and London...

    For how long do you think this lesson will last in the average Russian's memory? Western Propaganda is strong, continuous and virulent, If left unanswered it has the power to turn people to go against their own country. (turn Russians into Belarussians, Ukranians, Siberians, Primorskians, Sochisians, OR turn Chinese into Hong Kongers, Taiwanese, Manchurians, etc.). Another good example are the Russian liberals and 5th columnists who actively cooperate with the West to dismember Russia.

    If that is the case then the solution is not to reform the Soviet Union, but to break the western links to Russia and within countries in the west... wouldn't be that hard to do if they actually tried but they haven't done it yet.... perhaps a bit more shit from the west and they will inflict that on them...

    If they are indeed declining then they shouldn't be able to do the things that they used to do in the past and get away with it. But from what is happening now the west (US) is still capable of committing aggressive actions (meddling, threats, sanctions, outright assassinations, etc) with no dire consequences.

    But you are looking at their record of events.... how is the west actually going in Syria and Libya and Yemen and Venezuela... they succeeded in Bolivia but for how long? Their actions in Venezuela and Bolivia is just building opposition to them... and indeed the Iranians just gave them a kick in the balls they have never had before... I am going to punch you in the face in one hours time... and they couldn't stop it... all they could do is move their forces out of the way to avoid the blow... with all their aircraft carriers and super stealth fighters they just had to take it... and lucky for them some Iranians shot down an airliner to make everyone forget how embarrassed they are...

    When will the US breakup into pieces? in 10 years? 20 years? 100 years?

    It doesn't matter.... the point is that what they are doing makes it inevitable... the only way they can avoid it is to change their ways, but even if they changed them right now they are at the bottom of a deep hole they dug for themselves, and having screwed most of the people that could help them I don't see many hands reaching down to help them up... the other option will be to get much worse and just seize what they want and need... but I can't see that happening either... they really don't have a military superiority any more except against tiny countries.

    See? So the US can continue to dominate, abuse and enslave the world for many centuries to come and not face any consequences for it. If US is allowed to do this, why not Russia and China?

    If they continue to do what they are doing now they will alienate those who cooperated with them and rather than being on top directing everything they will become isolated and avoided... even if they change their ways as they often say to become a normal member of the international community, they wont be in charge... they wont dominate everything like they do now... they will become one of many powerful countries and groups of countries...

    No one is a saint. Why would you care if Americans murder each other? They deserve it. America caused numerous tragic events across the world that resulted in millions of deaths. It is only justified that they suffer their own bloody chapter in history.

    They did, you are correct, but the average guy teaching a class or driving a truck or farming or building houses... do they deserve to get murdered and put in a position where they have to murder others just to survive? War is a brutal and nasty thing and I would not wish it on anyone... much more so because the bastards at the top of the American elite... the ones that made lots of money from the killing and the starving... they will just pack up their stuff and leave and not have to face the consequences of the justice you are suggesting.

    In fact in a parallel to the Ukraine I would like to see everyone in power or in the army or police or special services fired and tried in a court of law to determine what they did, how much money they made illegally and how much blood there is on their hands... some might be able to go back to work, but a lot of them need to go to jail for things you or I would have been put in jail for if we had done them, and then I would want all the illgotten gains seized and placed in to a restoration fund to fix the country... so multi billionaires like Bezos could have two or three million to live on and the rest can go to building schools and hospitals and roads and bridges and of course giving healthcare and education to every US citizen.... including the new immigrants and the people who normally fall through the cracks and get screwed by society.

    owning an extra piece of real estate is always positive.

    Owning land cost money... if you don't have any use for it you should sell it now and use the money to develop the land you want to keep... to make better use of that.

    Especially when the tenants are demanding ungrateful assholes.


    This is no different from Chechnya. The Rus government transformed the region after years of conflict to become self sustaining and a productive part of Russia.

    That is right... part of Russia... not Ukraine or Belarus... which are not. The cost of making the Ukraine or Belarus shiny and new would bankrupt Russia and make things a lot worse for Russian people in Russia... so why bother... they wont thank you for it.

    You are a smart person but you dont seem to see through the facade here. The current British monarch is STILL considered OFFICIALLY as the "Head of State" of the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The monarch is also the "Commander in Chief" of the militaries of these countries. How is this Symbolic? If you are looking for a truly Symbolic/Ceremonial monarch then it will be the Emperor of Japan. additionally the JSDF answers to the Prime minister and not the Emperor.

    The Queen theoretically has that power/authority... but has never used it and is rather unlikely to do so... and honestly if she did and tried to force us to do something we otherwise didn't want to do the rules regarding her power would be changed over night.

    For a while the local Maori thought the best solution was to become a republic, but the treaty of Waitangi is between the Maori and the Crown so they would have to develop a new agreement and tear up the old one... and to be honest there are no full blooded maori left and many white people have as much claim to being new zealanders as they do... so there wouldn't be a new treaty and they would lose a lot of perks and avenues through the court system for "grievances".

    This is what happens when you are only after principles. Russia must win and America must lose. This is what only matters.

    I believe there is a Russian saying that if you give someone some of your food during a famine then it is not a serious famine... perhaps if the 5th column in Russia was smarter and more capable then more drastic tactics and actions might be necessary, but there are consequences to being a censored and therefore if you can avoid it you really should try to avoid it.

    I understand that the winner will write the history and after a valiant duel overcame their opponent even though they were cheating because they are fundamentally evil unlike me who is pure and honest... perhaps my only fault... but I really don't understand how the 1% in the US sleep at night... with a roof over your head and enough free time to do what you enjoy and a good job that makes you feel useful... what else is there?

    Many Chinese collaborated with the Japs during WW2 despite the atrocities that were committed against their own people (Wang Jingwei regime). Manchuria also sided with Imperial Japan. Another good example is Vichy France.

    Well to be fair there are a variety of such people... those that met the invading army with flowers because they thought they were being freed from Stalin only to find out these Germans hated Soviets and treated their horses better than they treated their Soviet prisoners, but there were also those that cooperated at the muzzle of a gun, but also those that were happy to help the occupiers by holding that gun for them against the heads of their fellow countrymen... once you understand the nature of the enemy and you still willingly cooperate then I would call you a 5th column scum that needs to be removed like a disease, but believing their propaganda but when you get what you thought you wanted and realise it is worse than what you had.... all empty bullshit that only applies to the 1% to enjoy... well that is when you see the character of the person.

    I have read John McCain actively cooperated with the North Vietnamese to get better conditions for himself... that is pretty shitty...

    After the war, when the respective governments of these countries gained control of these renegade territories, they are able to reboot the mentality of the people of these regions and make them good citizens of their countries again.

    Well it is easier when there are gas chambers and pits with murdered locals in them to show the locals, but most of the time it would be bank statements from their former leaders of their foreign bank accounts... you would be amazed at the number of westerners who think Putin has trillions of dollars put away...

    When Russia regains control of Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan (and hopefully the Baltics to secure a land bridge to Kaliningrad), then the government will be able to reprogram the "Thoughts" of the local populace and turn them into ordinary Russian citizens.

    Can't see that happening myself but would be interested to hear the view of an actual Russian about how much this territory in question is worth to them and their feelings about the people currently occupying the territories...

    I suspect that with Crimea back in Russian hands they could care less about the rest... everything of value in the Ukraine was from Soviet times and would be largely ruined and useless now, while anything of value in Belarus has value because Russia continues to buy it...

    But still not enough to give Russia more leverage to use against the West.

    Why the fixation with the west? Forget the west. Russia needs to grow and develop itself and in doing so will create a viable technology and moral and cultural and political alternative for other countries of the planet to choose instead of the west... for some things like nuclear power generation Russia is already hands down the best option, but in terms of trade in other commodities it offers an alternative to the west and to asia that does not demand concessions to get raped like the west does. Russia will beat the west by NOT BEING LIKE THE WEST. Russia can't and shouldn't compete, trying to "out west" the west because it is a race to zero. Russia should be a sensible structured strong viable alternative to the creaky fragmented unstable and nasty unforgiving west...

    I understand that Russia have gigantic tasks ahead that will not be achieved overnight, However, accomplishing major economic breakthroughs in 5 years is more preferable than 10 or 15 years. Russia has just passed a law requiring smart phones and other electronic consumer products in Russia to have pre installed Russian app alternatives, hopefully this will help promote growth in Russia's domestic software industry and break Western monopoly in this rapidly growing market.

    Indeed, and breaking these monopolies is critical to prevent Russia ending up the same as the west where a company like Apple can spend a billion dollars and bribe... sorry contribute to the election funds for every senator and every congressperson and both political parties in the US... so it doens't matter which way the vote goes, no matter the will of the people, they will have paid consultants in political office doing their bidding and they will make sure they get their moneys worth by crushing and blocking and banning any competition... within reason of course...

    The next big project for the Russian government as part of their Import Substitution program should be to create a Russian Huawei and Russian Toyota. AvtoVAZ is a good domestic car company but its been allowed to be taken over by Renault and has been delisted from the Moscow Exchange, it dont know if it can still be considered a "Russian" company. what a waste.

    They have instructed their MIC to expand into civilian products so that is likely to happen, but as long as the anti monopoly laws remain in force it would be OK to buy Toyotas and Huaweis... hell in a few years when incomes increase and they are getting them all made in some cheap third world shithole... like the UK or US then they might want some Russian alternatives...

    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 335
    Points : 422
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:02 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Czech, Slovak split made no sense. Yes there are some difference in the languages, but the people never wanted to form two separate countries.  When I visited Bratislava the locals said that the split was organised  by the politicians while the inhabitants never asked for any of this

    It wasn't that clean.   The Czechs looked down on the Slovaks as being more backward.   Similar to the situation in eastern and western Ukraine.  This is
    the result of centuries of Catholic divide and conquer conquest of eastern slavic lands.  There is always and east-west split even between assimilated
    lands (Slovaks are Catholics) because the chronology has substantial offsets.    In the case of Ukraine the east-west split is extreme because
    the east remained Orthodox.   The west as mostly assimilated in the the Catholic realm as Uniates.




    Then how come Volhynia in the far north-west of Ukraine is entirely Eastern Orthodox and pro-Banderist?

    Only part of the western Ukraine is Catholic.

    Do not oversimplify it.


    Sponsored content

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #28 - Page 6 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #28

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:10 am