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    Global warming

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:46 pm

    Nothing special - just express your opinions.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:44 pm

    HOAX.

    UK, US military hoax of climate change using which they attack whole world with weather weapons,cause destruction and compel scared people into supporting climate control infra.Then use it for privatiingz nature,covert wars, dictatorship

    US Airforce research paper from 1996 - " Weather as a Force Multiplier : Owning the Weather in 2025". This is why they developed HAARP

    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a333462.pdf
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:12 pm


    It's happening, it's caused by humans but there's nothing you can do about it. Why, you ask? Here's why:

    Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions, study says

    https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

    So just relax, drive your moderately sized car, don't litter too much and enjoy

    There's nothing you can do about it so no point worrying



    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:33 pm

    jhelb wrote:HOAX.

    UK, US military hoax of climate change using which they attack whole world with weather weapons,cause destruction  and compel scared people into supporting climate control infra.Then use it for privatiingz nature,covert wars, dictatorship

    US Airforce research paper from 1996 - " Weather as a Force Multiplier : Owning the Weather in 2025". This is why they developed HAARP

    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a333462.pdf

    They are not the only one to do that. Russia used chemicals to oblige the rain to fall so that it doesn't fall on Moscow during a big event that I can't remember. Germany's bayer has one of the bigest producers of chemicals/pesticides that destroy our lands with US monsanto. France isn't better. China even worse.

    Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions, study says

    Those studies have 0 value. Specially if it has numbers representing something not countable like pollution in the world. You have studies that will tell you must stop eating meat because it will kill you and in the same time have an opposite statement in an other study. Generally they make their study so that it matches at the end what they want to say and not they reality.

    There's nothing you can do about it so no point worrying

    You can boycott them. And reduce the use of your car. Buy a smaller car with a newer engine. Oblige your government to re-introduce taxes and stop those "free exchange agreements" that increase the consumption. Many things to do actually.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:59 pm

    jhelb wrote:HOAX.

    UK, US military hoax of climate change using which they attack whole world with weather weapons,cause destruction  and compel scared people into supporting climate control infra.Then use it for privatiingz nature,covert wars, dictatorship

    US Airforce research paper from 1996 - " Weather as a Force Multiplier : Owning the Weather in 2025". This is why they developed HAARP

    https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a333462.pdf

    Nice to see people without a PhD in the relevant area think that they are more qualified than the actual experts. No, your experience with
    weather does not make you a climate scientist.

    Some facts systematically ignored by the deniers and their tin foil hat traveler buddies:

    1) 99.99% of the atmosphere is completely transparent to IR radiation. O2, N2 and Argon do not absorb IR bands. This leaves greenhouse
    gases (CH4, CO2, N2O, NOx, O3, PCFCs) and H2O vapor as the only factors why there is life on this planet and it is not an ice Hell.

    1b) So it's all natural because of H2O vapor, right? Wrong. H2O is not a dry gas on Earth. It is a readily condensing vapor. It is also
    controlled by thermodynamics. Colder temperature leads to net removal of water vapor from the atmosphere and leads to further cooling
    (thanks to the prime role of water vapor as an IR trapping substance). In addition, the high albedo of ice and snow contributes to the
    cooling feedback by reflecting short wave solar radiation back to space. It is possible to have runaway freezing as we had hundreds of millions
    of years ago during so-called snow-ball Earth events.

    But there is no similar propensity for runaway warming. That is why the oceans condensed out of the primordial atmosphere billions of
    years ago and did not stay in the vapor phase giving us some Venus-like hothouse. Convection is a very efficient heat transport mechanism
    to the tropopause where the atmosphere is optically thin to IR radiation (i.e. there is radiation to space to leading order in the radiative
    transfer equations). If the system is really hot with a lot of water vapor the tropopause forms at a higher altitude but it still serves
    the same purpose: convective pumping of heat into space via radiation from the cloud tops. Another effect of excessive water vapor
    in the atmosphere is that cloud albedo eventually starts to become important. Even the translucent cirrus ice clouds in the tropopause
    region eventually become optically thick to shortwave solar radiation and stop acting as a greenhouse amplifier, but become solar radiation
    reflectors. This is on top of all the cloud albedo from deep convective cloud anvils. It really does take CO2 to give Venus-like conditions
    since CO2 is a dry gas and does not condense out of the atmosphere and also does not act like an efficient convective heat pump.

    1c) Humans pump over 30 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere every year and volcanoes only pump on average 600 million tons.
    Thanks to human activity CO2 is now over 405 ppmv. It varied from 170 to 320 ppmv over the last 3.3 million years of the ice age. We
    are now out of the ice age if 405 ppmv and higher values persist.

    2) Only morons give a rat's ass lip-service to climate change given by global elites and psy-op theater such as Greta as if it makes any
    difference to the science. Good propaganda lies with the truth. For some reason a lot of twits believe that liars only lie.

    The demand that Al Gore should stop flying planes to live up to his climate science "faith" is simple retarded BS. Look up Jevons paradox.
    The only way to curtail fossil fuel use and CO2 emissions is through massive collective action and not through individual asceticism.

    3) There is 50 times more CO2 dissolved in the ocean water than there is in the atmosphere. Due to the observed warming of the oceans,
    the are transitioning from net sinks for CO2 to net sources. Old estimates of warming predicted more than 70% reduction of ocean CO2
    uptake by 2100. Recent data indicates that warming is proceeding faster than IPCC estimates. So we are likely to flip the oceans into
    net CO2 emitters by 2100. Then we are Royally F*cked. Even if humans stopped all CO2 emissions, the warming would proceed by
    release of natural reservoirs (oceans, cryosphere). With enough CO2 in the atmosphere, the time scale for natural attenuation expands to
    100,000s of thousands of years. That is, we need to wait for chemical weathering via carbonic acid in rain to remove the CO2.

    4) The physical state of the oceans is driven by biochemistry. That is not like the atmosphere. Warming results in a stratification effect
    where the surface layer becomes progressively isolated from deeper waters due to intensification of the thermocline. This temperature
    gradient suppressed eddy heat fluxes and circulation transport into the deep ocean. The ocean water interior is an adiabatic environment
    with basically zero radiation of heat (IR) to remote locations. So the stratified, warm top layer cannot cool via radiation, unlike the atmosphere
    where remote radiative transfer is an important heat transport process. Thanks to the shutdown of transport across the thermocline and
    warming of the surface layer, the oxygen levels go down substantially. This results in the growth of the anoxic zone from the bottom
    of the surface layer both upwards and downwards. The amount of biotic carbon formation does not drop since it becomes concentrated
    near the warm surface which has enough oxygen, but instead of oxidizing bacterial chemistry acting on dead matter (detritus), there is
    now reducing bacterial chemistry (e.g. sulfate and iron reducing bacterial species take over). This results in the release of CH4 instead of
    CO2 from decay (aka remineralization by bacteria) and the release of H2S. CH4 is a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 even though
    it gets photolytically destroyed in the upper stratosphere (persistent emissions imply about 25 times more potency). H2S is toxic to humans,
    marine mammals and other animals. Living near the coast as 40% of humans do will become impossible.


    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:22 am

    Isos wrote:You can boycott them.

    Boycott all the largest companies on the planet? And where exactly am I supposed to get the stuff need?

    Will USA and Europe be boycotting those companies? I don't see them lining up.



    Isos wrote:And reduce the use of your car.

    How about all those assholes from rich countries that polluted the planet in the first place reduce use of their cars?



    Isos wrote:Buy a smaller car with a newer engine.

    I already have a small car, not because I want to but because I have to.



    Isos wrote:Oblige your government to re-introduce taxes and stop those "free exchange agreements" that increase the consumption. Many things to do actually.

    How about all those rich countries who robbed and polluted their way to the top do that while the rest of us use the resources and cheap technology available to us to reach their level of economic development in ten meantime?

    If global warming is such a big issue for them then it's only fair that they make sacrifices themselves instead of asking others to sacrifice instead while they keep on living large.

    But they would rather prefer if current status is frozen so that they get to stain top permanently. No thanks, I plan on staying in the game.



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:59 am

    Climate change is normal... human effects currently are abnormal and have changed and are changing the environment... humans are better adapted to different temperatures than most other life on the planet, but we will certainly need to be on our toes to ensure food supply and to counter the effects of flooding and drought and other issues like water levels.

    Ice ages occurred before humans burned fossil fuels and will continue to occur... it would be amusing if attempts to stop global warming resulted in an ice age instead... but I doubt we could be that organised and effective on a globally significant scale.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:43 am

    I was talking about everyone, don't take it personnally.

    You can hate them but European countries are doing a lot to reduce pollution. Contrary to US and China.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:34 am

    I was talking about everyone, don't take it personnally.

    You can hate them but European countries are doing a lot to reduce pollution. Contrary to US and China.

    Not sure if you directed that at me but I posted my opinion without reading any of the other posts already posted, so to be honest I didn't take anything personally... I just gave my opinion.

    But what we do need is a teenage european kid to tell the world... particularly the third world that they need to stop developing and industrialising their economies because she says so.

    Most people want a more comfortable and safe and stable future for their families and if they can't get it where they are most are prepared to move to get it.

    Brazil is a case in point... the west has destroyed all its local forests and nature habitats while it was developing and growing their economies, but it seems now that no one else can do the same because some in the west claim it is bad.

    Why.

    As I said, climate change is natural... there are lots of different factors but the worlds climate has never been static and stable... it has been one thing or another that changes things... change is natural and normal.

    So what if it gets warmer or colder... we really can't control it either way and have to deal with the consequences.

    During the Dark Ages in Europe there was a period of cold weather and they survived.

    But the Europeans are not reducing pollution... they are adding to pollution... you might argue they have reduced the amount of the acceleration of the pollution, but they certainly have not stopped all pollution completely and started removing pollution from the air and water...

    As plastic levels increase in their food supply it will be interesting the effect it has on cancer rates... but then they have been responsible for protecting the oil industry and ignoring greener energy options for the last 70-80 years.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:29 am

    I was talking to papa.


    Brazil is a case in point... the west has destroyed all its local forests and nature habitats while it was developing and growing their economies, but it seems now that no one else can do the same because some in the west claim it is bad.

    Soory but no. West isn't the only responsible. All the world took advantages of western technology development and they are as much responsible as the west for global warming.

    All the countries use oil, gaz, cars ... In asia they mostly use asian cars. Brazil sold its trees and its forest, west didn't took it by force just like we buy everything we take in Africa, it's not our fault if they let some dictators take all the money.

    All the stuff you use in your everyday life is now produced in every country with their own brands. China is the one who benefits the most from western technology as they produced almost everything and they got richer thanks to that.


    You say the west developed its industries and now wants to stop other's development but if you go in most of countries of the world you will see they are developed too and use the same technologies as you.


    The level of development may not be the same but it's not a reason to close eyes and keep destroying the earth.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:01 pm


    @ Isos

    Agree. I have noticed a change in climate, where I live. Compared to forty years ago. Gone are the predictable seasons and mild weather. Now we get extremes of heat and cold. Unseasonal weather. Early springs and hot summers. Last couple of summers, too hot and humid here. Could not breathe easy.

    https://youtu.be/tkeDTL7bIKM

    I have made changes to my life.

    ( 1) I will not buy a car now. Use public transport or walk.

    ( 2) I now eat one more meat free meal per week.

    I hope my children and grand children will enjoy this planet as I did. And not be cooked alive like surface of Mercury.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:47 am

    I was talking to papa.

    Fair enough.

    Soory but no. West isn't the only responsible. All the world took advantages of western technology development and they are as much responsible as the west for global warming.

    If only... the west has had plenty of time to pass through the dirty smoky industrial age and to enter into the space age with new technology that could allow industrial production without the pollution... and I don't just mean gas and coal fired power stations, I mean all the chemical pollution most industrial societies produce.

    The west continues to produce enormous amounts of pollution, which much of the third world has barely started... if the west wants to tell Brazil and other countries how they can or cannot develop then they need to front up... the goal of burning down the rainforest is to make money by farming or building houses or using the land to generate income... if the west wants them to stop then they need to have a financial counter offer... pay them to not cut or burn it down. Send in some specialists to document all the new species there... followed by chemists who can use the new plants and animals and insects to develop new technologies.... send in anthropologists to talk to the natives about which plants or animals they use for different purposes, and get your moneys worth that way... perhaps even use the native trees and replant areas to regrow parts of it if you like... as long as you are paying for it then that would be fine... and with that money Brazil can develop its infrastructure the way you guys did, except instead of burning down forests and building farms, they can earn money from their forests.

    All the countries use oil, gaz, cars ... In asia they mostly use asian cars.

    Indeed you did, and you introduced these technologies around the world...

    Brazil sold its trees and its forest, west didn't took it by force just like we buy everything we take in Africa, it's not our fault if they let some dictators take all the money.

    Brazil is selling its trees and burning down forests for farm land and they are fine with that... it is the west that is bitching about them cutting and burning the rain forest. If you want to keep the Brazilian rainforest and think it belongs to the world then start fucking paying for its up keep. The Brazilian rain forest clearly has a value to you guys, well it has a value to Brazil as well, but they get that value by burning it down and making farms... if you want them to keep it them make it more valuable to them intact.

    And stop that horse shit about corruption... the west promotes corruption in the third world... that is how they keep them poor by shooting any good moral people with consciences and dealing with and supporting the criminals because they are easier and cheaper to pay off.


    All the stuff you use in your everyday life is now produced in every country with their own brands. China is the one who benefits the most from western technology as they produced almost everything and they got richer thanks to that.

    That is wrong as well... we used to make things in New Zealand, but we don't now... we had a clothing industry, but now it is a fashion industry, we don't make cars or fridges and ovens here any more because China makes it much much cheaper, so western companies have moved production offshore to save money.

    The amusing thing is that the Chinese are smart and they have screwed us.... a big western company like Nike builds a big factory in China and it works 8 hours a day making 400 dollar a pair Nike shoes... but the chinese manager isn't stupid... he hires two other shifts of workers so the factory runs 24/7 with three 8 hour shifts a day, but the other 16 hours a day it makes other shoes on the same machinery using the same materials and he sells them for 20 dollars a pair instead of the 50 dollars a pair he gets from Nike. Same shoes, but without the Nike logo many westerners wont give them a second look, but in countries who don't even know what nike is he can sell those shoes for 40-50 dollars a pair and still make a fortune... and that happens across the board.

    A lot of innovation happens on the factory floor... improved manufacturing methods, replacing materials, new design changes... that is gone from the western production model now...

    Of course now big western multinational companies are going to shift production to India... but those factories in China are just going to expand and grow anyway...  Trump is demanding Apple moves its factories out of China... they wont move them to America like he wants, they will go to India or Bangladesh.

    Low wages, no workers rights, enormous labour pool. Cheap to bribe.

    You say the west developed its industries and now wants to stop other's development but if you go in most of countries of the world you will see they are developed too and use the same technologies as you.

    Owned by western companies for the most part, who rarely spread around their profit locally.

    Top Gear went for a trip to Africa and of course they were expecting terrible roads... but the roads were actually very good in many places... the Chinese built them... which makes you think... Europe has been in Africa for 300 odd years... why didn't they build good roads?

    But then why would they because that would suggest they gave a shit about the locals... the former PM of Britain... May was certainly upset that African countries were being fooled into getting in to debt spirals with agreements with China where they will never escape.... which is ironic because that is what Europe has been doing there all this time and the Chinese are in fact doing the opposite... improving the lot of the local people.

    These people don't move to strange countries in the north where they speak funny languages and have totally different cultures just for a bit of fun... most of them want to live in a safe comfortable country where their children have the potential to live safe comfortable lives... if you had let Africa develop and grow they wouldn't even consider going to europe.

    But of course when I say you, I don't mean you personally... you had no say in the matter...


    The level of development may not be the same but it's not a reason to close eyes and keep destroying the earth.

    Destroying the Earth... that is a bit melodramatic isn't it?

    The Earth has survived much worse than anything we can do to it... look at Chernobyl... a huge dump of radiation actually boosted nature far more than anything man has ever tried before... and it is not because the radioactivity created super creatures and plants like spider man... it is because it made humans leave the area and when they did that nature took over and immediately started to repair the damage we create.

    If you want to save the world the stop having kids and have a couple of very serious wars... or terraform Mars and send most of the population there.

    I hope my children and grand children will enjoy this planet as I did. And not be cooked alive like surface of Mercury.

    The climate is never static and always changes anyway... if human activity is effecting the climate... so what... there are a huge number of variables that effect climate... some are short term and others over a longer period... if we are creating a warming period then that is fine... the whole world can't even decide on the same religion... what are the chances of global action fixing the problems of today.

    People make too much money on oil and gas and they are not going to allow that money tree to get cut down.

    What if we successfully fix what we have done... I think it wont happen, but what if we do and a new ice age starts like it was supposed to... the last ice age there was an ice sheet 3km thick over New York and you could walk from Russia to Alaska, and across the english channel... but then when people start building houses on that sea bed and nations borders change dramatically then what do we do when the ice age ends and the sea fills up again and all those new houses and buildings are flooded.... oh no...


    Last edited by GarryB on Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:18 pm


    Some hilarious contributions from environmentally conscious ''future of mankind'' lol1




    Regular
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    Post  Regular on Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:00 pm

    I love it☀ Warm weather for Northerns and extinction to southerners. What not to love?
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:47 pm

    Lots of things, including (but not limited to)
    - massive migrations from Africa & Middle East to Europe (on scale 30x higher than the current "refugee crisis") as well as from South Asia to North Asia and to Canada
    - flooding of coasts on all continents and need to provide new homes for milions of people
    - more unpredictable and chaotic weather, higher frequency of both floods and droughts,
    - hurricanes in Europe
    - more and longer heatwaves disrupting agricultural productivity and causing increased mortality among children and the elderly (even higher medical costs)
    - spread of tropical diseases up north

    etc etc.

    The best option is to switch fast to nuclear energy - 4th gen reactors with closed fuel cycle are the future, screw renewables.
    Regular
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    Post  Regular on Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:59 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Lots of things, including (but not limited to)
    - massive migrations from Africa & Middle East to Europe (on scale 30x higher than the current "refugee crisis") as well as from South Asia to North Asia and to Canada
    - flooding of coasts on all continents and need to provide new homes for milions of people
    - more unpredictable and chaotic weather, higher frequency of both floods and droughts,
    - hurricanes in Europe
    - more and longer heatwaves disrupting agricultural productivity and causing increased mortality among children and the elderly (even higher medical costs)
    - spread of tropical diseases up north

    etc etc.

    It will be test for human kind and it will weed out the weak ones. I am not joking here, but Russia will be the winner here
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:11 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Lots of things, including (but not limited to)
    - massive migrations from Africa & Middle East to Europe (on scale 30x higher than the current "refugee crisis") as well as from South Asia to North Asia and to Canada
    - flooding of coasts on all continents and need to provide new homes for milions of people
    - more unpredictable and chaotic weather, higher frequency of both floods and droughts,
    - hurricanes in Europe
    - more and longer heatwaves disrupting agricultural productivity and causing increased mortality among children and the elderly (even higher medical costs)
    - spread of tropical diseases up north

    etc etc.

    It will be test for human kind and it will weed out the weak ones. I am not joking here, but Russia will be the winner here

    The problem is that it is not some adjustable amount of warming, but extinction inducing levels of warming just like during all the
    previous major warming events. So think of human and insect locusts moving north as agriculture fails progressively towards the
    poles.

    Obviously life will not disappear from this planet. But whatever conditions have existed that helped humanity obtain global civilization
    will go away, to be replaced of something vastly more variable and harsh.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:21 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Some hilarious contributions from environmentally conscious ''future of mankind''   lol1  





    lol1 lol1 lol1

    Sometimes I imagine those assholes in a destroyed world full of zombies like in The Walking dead tv show. They would what we call today food.

    This greta would be the 1000$ meal you get in restaurant that most of us never go to lol1 .

    They spend their entier life of rich kids comsuming like hundreds of poor chinese or africans and suddenly they feel worry about the earth. They even dare to bring their iPhones while reading their stupidities on how to be a good human.
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:48 pm

    Thunberg is autistic and autistic people don't think/feel like normal people (I myself probably have broader autism phenotype at the very least)

    Plus she is young and misguided. She should advocate for nuclear energy IMO.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:39 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Thunberg is autistic and autistic people don't think/feel like normal people (I myself probably have broader autism phenotype at the very least)

    Plus she is young and misguided. She should advocate for nuclear energy IMO.

    She is a 14 year old brat who just does what she is told, I don't blame her one bit

    Kids are kids

    I actually admire Greta, she figured out a way to skip school and be generously rewarded for it with loads of money and attention

    I wish I came up with something like that back when I was a young lad cry


    What is really funny are those college students and other adults, never in my life have I seen a bigger pile of complete retards

    It would almost be worrying if it weren't so hilarious lol1





    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:42 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Thunberg is autistic and autistic people don't think/feel like normal people (I myself probably have broader autism phenotype at the very least)

    Plus she is young and misguided. She should advocate for nuclear energy IMO.

    This is total comedy. The "speech" was already made by another kid in the 80s or 90s (don't remember but it was decades ago). She is just happy to be "famous" and has a normal reaction for a stupid human : the more she sees her face on stupid tv news like CNN or twitter the more she think the world "follows" her and the more she play its comedy. That's pathetic.

    She should go back to school and her parents with her to learn how to educate kids.

    She has no background to teach anyone about anything. Real scientist that have backgrounds and study the subject should be invited to speak. Not a girl of 16 yo because it looks "cool". That's why this society sucks. We give too much if not all the power to assholes.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:38 pm

    Life on earth has been easy... plenty of clean air and clean water and we have burned and used up a lot of energy sources and materials to build what we currently have.

    In the future there are going to be wars for resources with the west continuing to steal from the poor and the weak and telling them they are doing them a favour.

    The irony is that a lot of warming will greatly increase the amount of fresh water in the arctic ocean which could change the currents so the gulf stream that currently keeps europe artificially warm might change or stop all together and Japan and Alaska and far east Russia might suddenly become warmer, and europe become much much colder.

    The recycling technology needed to live in submarines for weeks or other planets of space for years or decades will be invaluable here on earth to allow existing resources to stretch to everyone... though I suspect a few costly and bloody wars might be fought before we realise it is not about the 1% getting what they want, but about the 99% getting what they need.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:Life on earth has been easy... plenty of clean air and clean water and we have burned and used up a lot of energy sources and materials to build what we currently have.

    In the future there are going to be wars for resources with the west continuing to steal from the poor and the weak and telling them they are doing them a favour.

    The irony is that a lot of warming will greatly increase the amount of fresh water in the arctic ocean which could change the currents so the gulf stream that currently keeps europe artificially warm might change or stop all together and Japan and Alaska and far east Russia might suddenly become warmer, and europe become much much colder.

    The recycling technology needed to live in submarines for weeks or other planets of space for years or decades will be invaluable here on earth to allow existing resources to stretch to everyone... though I suspect a few costly and bloody wars might be fought before we realise it is not about the 1% getting what they want, but about the 99% getting what they need.

    Even though fresh water discharge from land ice is increasing, there is an offsetting effect from the increased mixing of Arctic Ocean
    waters. Up until recently there has been basically a year-round lockdown of the surface waters by sea ice. As of the middle 2000s we
    have entered a state where most of the sea ice is gone by September. And the average annual surface area exposed to wind and sunshine
    has increased substantially. As already observed there is enhanced coupling with the atmosphere (including solar radiation gradients
    imposed by clouds) that have activated the Arctic Ocean mixed layer. This has increased surface water salinity compared to what it was
    before (e.g. around 1980). Don't forget that there are several major rivers pumping fresh water into the Arctic Ocean. Thanks to
    the quiescent and stratified regime of the ice-locked past, the surface layer of the Arctic was not as salty as the deeper waters.
    This promoted sea ice growth and due to two-fluid stratification kept the temperatures in the surface layer low (deeper warm currents
    into the Arctic Ocean were suppressed and mixing with the generally warmer deeper waters was suppressed as well).

    The threat of cooling of the EU from some "shutdown" of the thermohaline circulation (THC), is some sort of urban myth. We do not have
    the conditions that we had 20,000 years ago when massive lakes formed in North America that catastrophically drained into the North
    Atlantic. Greenland is the only source of fresh water that could do such damage but it would require catastrophic melt. Even though
    the melting of the Greenland ice sheet is accelerating, it is still "glacial" compared to draining of a lake. And we have already seen
    that the number of plumes of descending relatively more saline water to the east of Greenland has reduced substantially without any
    impact on the warming trend. The concept of a THC shutdown is simply ignorant. It will never shutdown since the processes that drive
    it are not going to go away (wind and sunshine). But it will change its geometry. We already are in the process of super-stratification
    of the global oceans through the formation of warm surface layer that shuts down eddy and advection fluxes of heat into the deeper
    ocean. The abyssal branch of the THC is weakening and the THC cell (as seen in meridional cross sections) is being squeezed towards
    the surface. Of course this is not going to be everywhere but overall this is the new regime. Some huge melt of land ice that
    could mimic the draining of huge lakes is unlikely, but even if it happened it is just adding to the existing THC regime change.

    As for humans, they will be busy killing each other instead of dealing with the problem. We see this today. The US is busy starting
    colonial wars while only paying lip service to climate change. The whole US right is demented with the notion that global warming is
    some commie hoax. These morons can't tell the difference between fact on its own and fact spoken by political enemies. If the US
    "left" bleats about climate change, then it "must be a leftist concoction". Humans are really not much more advanced than yeast on
    the macro scale.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:14 pm

    lol1

    Global warming 1570703552_screenshot_2
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    Post  kvs on Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:20 pm

    OMG. I checked Time, it does not have this photo. But really it should use it. Greta is a Soros project and her parents are
    antifa brownshirts.


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