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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

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    Post  Arrow on Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:29 pm

    But this is not a type of hypersonic weapon like Avangard and Cirkon. It is a ballistic missile launch from an airplane against ship targets like Chinese ballistic missiles launched from the ground against ship.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:51 pm

    No one cares how you call them. As long as they work. If they put the missile it means US navy has very little chance to intercept it and no chance at all against an overwhelming attack.

    But you are clearly only trolling. Maybe mods should ban you.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:15 am

    Arrow wrote:The question is what is revolutionary in Kindzal? I understand Avangard, Cirkon but why Kindzal balistic missile launch from aircraft platform. Balistic missile with MaRV and maneuvrable warhead  is nothing new.

    Really? Suspect Name me one other quasi-ballistic air-launched missile that is designed to attack ships from the zenith (where radar coverage is poor) at hypersonic velocities from a 1000km range....

    You're such a trolling numpty. Why the f do you come here and pester people with your abject stupidity? scratch
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 am

    Why Kinzhal is called a hypersonic maneuvering rocket. it's an ordinary ballistic missile like Iskander-M. The missile maneuvers but only to a limited extent like Iskander-M. Only Awangard and Cirkon are hypersonic missiles with the possibility of considerable maneuvers.

    Hypersonic means high supersonic... generally meaning mach 5 plus in this day and age.

    So calling the Kinzhal a hypersonic manouvering rocket is just saying that the mach 10 kinzhal can manouver as it approaches its target.

    The Iskander is also a hypersonic missile... it flys at mach 6-7, which makes it hypersonic and it does not fly a ballistic path like the bullet fired from a gun... a predictable trajectory.

    Both Kinzhal and Iskander manouver during their flight to their target making interception very very difficult.

    So Iskander- M is hypersonic wepons, Bulava is hypersonic wepons, Yars is hypersonic wepons... V-2 is hypersonic wepons Laughing All balistic missile is hypersonic wepons

    No. V-2 was barely mach 3 on impact and a totally ballistic weapon. V-2 was supersonic ballistic missile, Scud from Desert Storm with extended range was coming in at mach 6 or so because of its extended range but it was not manouvering either so it was a hypersonic ballistic missile... not hard to intercept for ABM systems because although moving very fast its flight path was largely predictable.

    Note Patriot struggled with the Mach 6-7 Scud upgrades because it was not designed to hit ballistic missiles and normal aircraft don't move this fast, so firing an average of 32 Patriots at Scuds they found none of the Scuds were actually shot down because the Patriot missiles were hitting the bodies and rear areas of the scuds... but in the final part of the trajectory the bodies and rears are pointless and have done their job so being shredded by fragments from Patriot missiles didn't make any difference it was the falling warheads that were the problem and they hit the ground intact and did their damage anyway.

    An S-300V would have targetted the warhead of the Scud and destroyed it in the air because it was designed to hit ballistic missile targets and could direct its warhead fragments at where the targets warhead was.

    The Patriot did what it was designed to do... the US clearly were not expecting to fight an enemy with any ballistic weapons... go figure... the Soviets were very well prepared....



    Old Soviet R-5 it was hypersonic wepons. This is normal balistic missile like Kindzal.

    Kinzhal is based on Iskander and is a manouvering hypersonic missile with extended range because when it is launched it is already 10km plus up in the air and moving at over mach 2.

    The question is what is revolutionary in Kindzal? I understand Avangard, Cirkon but why Kindzal balistic missile launch from aircraft platform. Balistic missile with MaRV and maneuvrable warhead is nothing new.

    The Iskander isn't just a dumb ballistic missile like Scud... it has sensors on board to detect radar tracking signals so it knows when something is coming to intercept it and it can turn to avoid it and turn again and again to make itself a difficult target... just like Kinzhal does.

    A MaRV uses its manouvering performance to manouver away from the warhead bus to hit targets well beyond the trajectory of the ICBM it was launched from... it wont be dodging bullets all the way down...

    But this is not a type of hypersonic weapon like Avangard and Cirkon.

    Actually it is, the difference is that Avangard is launched from an ICBM, while Zircon is a replacement for ship launched Onyx missiles and also Granit missiles and uses scramjet propulsion and will be powered from launch to impact with target unlike Kinzhal which is rocket powered.

    It is a ballistic missile launch from an airplane against ship targets like Chinese ballistic missiles launched from the ground against ship.

    Again... that term ballistic means it is launched upwards on a curved trajectory towards the target which it basically falls down upon at high speed but on a relatively predictable trajectory... so even though it is moving fast you can estimate a point in front of it to intercept it easily enough.

    The difference is that with Zircon or Kinzhal while your interceptor missile is launched and on its way to that intercept point the target might have started climbing and turning left... shifting the interception point 20-30km from the original point, so you immediately command your interception missile to turn and head for the new interception point, but then your interception point changes again because the incoming missile turns back to the right to an equal angle distance on the other side of its original trajectory so and the interception point shifts 40-60km to the right of the second interception point... which your first launched missile can't now reach in time because that would require a 180 degree turn which would massively reduce its effective range so it can no longer reach the intercept point (your interception missile would be coasting so a hard 180 degree turn would burn up all its energy and it would drop from the sky...

    The enormous speeds of these targets means even small flight direction angle changes shift intercept points by enormous distances... 3 seconds before interception and the target turns 10 degrees the tracking system might not detect the new final angle of turn and therefore not know where the new interception point would be by the time the intercepting missile has blown past anyway... you could launch dozens of SAMs and still miss...
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:06 am

    Very good explanation. unshaven
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:30 am

    Thank you for explaining GarryB. The Cirkon missile, although slower will have better energy for maneuvers. Kindzal can maneuver but loses energy on every maneuver. It is accelerated by an ordinary rocket engine that works for several seconds. American ABM systems like PAC-3 or THAAD were tested against maneuvering warheads. for example, HERA missile which has a maneuvering warhead from Pershing 2. SM-6 missile is to slowly to intercept Kindzal and Cirkon, Oniks
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:09 pm

    Yeah dude... if anything could intercept them they wouldn't all be having a cow about Russia introducing an uninterceptable anti ship missile...

    These missiles climb to a reasonable height and they can manouver in three dimensions... they will be moving through the air at very very high speeds at very very high altitudes where the air is very thin... any speed they lose by turning left or right will be minimal and any speed lost in a small climb will be regained when it dives on the target...

    Zircon (note Russian anti ship missiles generally have names related to material... minerals... the Zircon is named after Zirconium, Onyx is a precious stone, Yakhont means Jewel, Granit is a hard stone material etc etc.) is a powered missile so any flight manouvers will not really slow it down much if at all and when it gets to the target area it should be able to accelerate quite a bit because it will probably have burned a ton of fuel and be one ton lighter yet still able to operate its scramjet engine at full thrust...

    PAC-3 and THAAD have never been tested against Manouvering hypersonic targets... the HERA warhead is for precision, not evasion.

    S-400 and S-500 can't shoot down manouvering hypersonic missiles either... for all the same reasons I mentioned that American missiles can't.

    Moving at mach 10 means covering about 3 km per second HE detonates at about that speed so a HE warhead that explodes 1m behind one of these missiles and the missile will be safe because the momentum will mean the shrapnel of the explosion wont catch the missile.... even from 1 metre behind because in a fraction of a second the momentum of the missile will carry it hundreds of metres in the other direction, while the target is moving the other way at a rate of 3km per second...

    If you shoot at a duck you will miss, you have to aim ahead of the duck but to do that you need to know which direction the duck is travelling and hope your pellets get to it before it changes direction.

    Iskander and Kinzhal and Zircon are moving so fast your eye could not follow them... in fact if one blew past a few metres above you the supersonic shockwave from their passing would rip you to pieces and kill you.


    Weapons like this are fantastic because they make war much less likely because when Russia has these the US Navy is totally pointless and helpless.

    They have hypersonic missiles and very good IADS so they have a few years head start on developing countermeasures for them... I suspect it will involve high power lasers or particle beams or possibly missiles that work in teams to attack their target together.

    Nothing available now will work reliably... except the mass use of airburst nuclear weapons in the path of these missiles and even then you will need to use a lot to be sure.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:49 pm

    PAC 3 nor THAAD has been tested against maneuvering targets. They don't aim for the warhead but the missiles body. Warhead if they can't hit body but very unlikely can hit.

    Hence why NK nuke flew over Japan without any attempts to shoot down. Or fact that missiles still end up bombing Saudi Arabia.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:03 pm

    NK missiles flew to high. THAAD couldn´t reach them.
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    Post  kvs on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:26 pm

    Hole wrote:NK missiles flew to high. THAAD couldn´t reach them.

    Rather pathetic for a the vaunted ABM components. If the US really had a proper ABM system then we would be hearing glowing
    reports about shoot-downs of "enemy" missiles. Instead their usage is basically zero. This really says everything about the
    true level of the ABM.

    Russia was right to make an issue out of the dual use ABM launchers. The real deal with the US ABM components around the world
    is to launch more nuclear missiles at Russia and not the nearly impossible task of intercepting Russian nuclear missiles.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:45 am

    Well to be fair most in service missiles that are hypersonic are ballistic so interception is fairly straight forward... the S-400 can intercept targets going up to 4.8km/s... what it can't do is anticipate manouvers at random from a non ballistic target.

    The new Russian missiles... Iskander ground based missile, Kinzhal air launched derivative, and the new systems... Avangard, Zircon etc are new and rather different from what has come before in that they are designed to evade interception... it was part of their design.

    For the failure of Patriot in Desert Storm, it is rather unfair on the US system simply because there was never any requirement for the system to shoot down ballistic missiles... it would be like complaining that Sidewinder wasn't very good at sinking ships.

    Now they have PAC-3 and THAAD that are custom designed to hit ballistic weapons.... NOTE BALLISTIC WEAPONS.

    It would be like saying a tennis star like Federer would be great at catching birds because he can intercept tennis balls most of the time... the problem for Federer is that he can get the tennis ball most of the time because after it leaves his opponents racket it tends to follow a very predictable path so he can anticipate where he needs to move his body to so he can reach the intercept point with his tennis racket... think of Federer as the SAM and the racket as the warhead of the SAM... if the SAM goes the wrong way the warhead wont reach the target because the racket can only reach so far.

    When we talk about manouvering hypersonic missiles replace the tennis ball with a bird at top speed flight... it can climb out of his reach, it can change direction multiple times... and that might slow it down a little but Federer does not have the mobility for that to matter...
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    Post  kvs on Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well to be fair most in service missiles that are hypersonic are ballistic so interception is fairly straight forward... the S-400 can intercept targets going up to 4.8km/s... what it can't do is anticipate manouvers at random from a non ballistic target.

    The new Russian missiles... Iskander ground based missile, Kinzhal air launched derivative, and the new systems... Avangard, Zircon etc are new and rather different from what has come before in that they are designed to evade interception... it was part of their design.

    For the failure of Patriot in Desert Storm, it is rather unfair on the US system simply because there was never any requirement for the system to shoot down ballistic missiles... it would be like complaining that Sidewinder wasn't very good at sinking ships.

    Now they have PAC-3 and THAAD that are custom designed to hit ballistic weapons.... NOTE BALLISTIC WEAPONS.

    It would be like saying a tennis star like Federer would be great at catching birds because he can intercept tennis balls most of the time... the problem for Federer is that he can get the tennis ball most of the time because after it leaves his opponents racket it tends to follow a very predictable path so he can anticipate where he needs to move his body to so he can reach the intercept point with his tennis racket... think of Federer as the SAM and the racket as the warhead of the SAM... if the SAM goes the wrong way the warhead wont reach the target because the racket can only reach so far.

    When we talk about manouvering hypersonic missiles replace the tennis ball with a bird at top speed flight... it can climb out of his reach, it can change direction multiple times... and that might slow it down a little but Federer does not have the mobility for that to matter...

    We are talking about North Korean IRBMs and not Russian maneuverable ICBMs and warheads. I am sure that the altitude of the North
    Korean missile was not 2000 km above Japan and that it was purely ballistic. So this is a THAAD fail.

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    Post  Hole on Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:51 pm

    THAAD can reach targets in 150km or so. The NK missiles flew at more then 250km. Sometimes even as high as 800km.

    It would have been illegal to shoot them down because they were in outer space.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:12 am

    Hole wrote:THAAD can reach targets in 150km or so. The NK missiles flew at more then 250km. Sometimes even as high as 800km.

    It would have been illegal to shoot them down because they were in outer space.

    Thanks for the clarification. But a range of 150 km for an ABM interceptor is very sad. The S-500 missiles will have much larger ranges
    than this.

    So I am not seeing all the value in THAAD.

    As for legalities. If a missile is deemed a threat, then it is a legitimate target at any altitude. If it was a satellite launch, then there
    is more legal cover.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:21 am

    THAAD was the response to the Scud threat during Desert Storm... PAC-3 was the kneejerk reaction, while the THAAD was supposed to be the full solution.

    It was created at a time when the ABM treaty was still in effect so was only ever considered for use against theatre ballistic missiles with a range of 500km or less.

    It is the reason the Iskander is not ballistic...
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:10 am

    GarryB wrote:THAAD was the response to the Scud threat during Desert Storm... PAC-3 was the kneejerk reaction, while the THAAD was supposed to be the full solution.

    It was created at a time when the ABM treaty was still in effect so was only ever considered for use against theatre ballistic missiles with a range of 500km or less.

    It is the reason the Iskander is not ballistic...

    I was not clear on this aspect. So THAAD is not really designed to intercept serious IRBMs and is only for terminal phase interception of primitive ballistic missiles.
    That is why NK was harassing Japan in the way it was. Japan needs to find something better.





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    Post  Arrow on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:44 am

    GarryB but modern ABM interceptors flying very fast. THAAD about 3 km/s, SM-3 4.5km/s!. They have gasodynamic control which allows them to perform extreme maneuvers so they can react to hypersonic missile maneuvers? PAC-3 reportedly intercepting maneuvering warhead.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmjxQM2I7JU

    PAC-3 intercept MaRV warhead from Pershing !!!! Pershing's warhead can maneuver like Iskander and Kindzal. Only it is even smaller. So PAC-3 can intercept Iskander and Kindzal!!


    Storm II hypersonic maneuvering missile like Iskander and Kindzal
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:21 am

    GarryB but modern ABM interceptors flying very fast. THAAD about 3 km/s, SM-3 4.5km/s!. They have gasodynamic control which allows them to perform extreme maneuvers so they can react to hypersonic missile maneuvers? PAC-3 reportedly intercepting maneuvering warhead.

    It doesn't matter...

    A turn of 10 degrees will shift the intercept point 20km... but the incoming threat never actually gets to that intercept point because it has already turned back 10 degrees to its original trajectory and then another 10 degrees the other way... for the interceptor missile on its way that means the interception point has shifted 40km... but interception point is not just based on the targets trajectory... the interceptor missiles trajectory is also taken into account because for there to be an actual interception both objects have to occupy the same 4 dimensional space... ie same altitude, same longitude, same latitude, and the same time... if the first three are perfect but the time is 1 second out you miss by so far even a nuclear warhead wouldn't make it a successful intercept.

    When your interceptor is moving at 3km per second and the target is moving at 3km per second that means a 1 second miss is a miss by 6km instead of 3km...

    An object moving at 3km a second can have fantastic manouver capability, but it does not help if the target performs random manouvers... a simple IIR sensor on the target and it will see incoming missiles and be able to avoid them... radar sensors on them will detect active radar seekers too... and this is no revelation... the big Soviet anti ship missiles of the 1970s and 1980s were fitted with jammers and chaff decoys and flares to penetrate enemy air defences... the Granits even had a titanium armour plate to protect their warheads... it reportedly takes two R-33s to reliably destroy one... that is two lots of 50kgs of HE and fragments...

    S-500 intercepts targets moving at more than 7km/s.

    PAC-3 intercept MaRV warhead from Pershing !!!! Pershing's warhead can maneuver like Iskander and Kindzal. Only it is even smaller. So PAC-3 can intercept Iskander and Kindzal!!

    Hahahahahahaha... how much do you think a warhead can manouver and perhaps do you think a PAC-3 can intercept it before the warhead separates and therefore before it starts manouvering?

    Iskander is a nonballistic missile... at no point does it follow a ballistic path... it is manouvering like a cruise missile all the way to the target to prevent interception.

    If Iskander and Kinzhal and for that matter Zircon can be so easily intercepted why are western militaries shitting themselves... why is the British defence minister talking about restrictions in the deployment of hypersonic manouvering weapons like they were nukes?

    It is OK... if you want to believe they are interceptible then that is fine... you also believe other lies like Russia is an aggressor and the conflict in the Ukraine is all Russias fault... and that the Crimea belongs to the Ukraine... why not add another fantasy... just don't make any serious bets on it because when you find you are wrong it could be a problem...
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:56 am

    Yes  the PAC-3 already intercept the MaRV. At this height, MaRv is already flying separately. So they intercept maneuvering hypersonic warheads.




    No this is  a different topic. We're talking about technology. The US has shown that it intercept MaRV.


    Hypersonic weapon is dangerous but it is not a game changer, however. Cirkon is more difficult to intercept than Iskander and Kindzal.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:31 pm

    Arrow this debate is becoming more and more ridicule.

    Hera, Storm I and II, Juno are all terribly outdated target ballistic missiles (US has, at today, no working aero-ballistic missile systems) for the most part discontinued and not capable to simulate even only end of '80 years OPFOR systems.

    If we restrict the field to air-launched ballistic missile targets we have that US Missile Defense Agency at today employ to simulate theatre to short intermediate range (up to 3000 km) ballistic missiles  :


    SRALT - Short Range Air Launch Target

    LRALT - Long Range Air Launch Target

    E-LRALT Extended Long Range Air Launch Target

    Cause the the layout and the propulsion employed and even more the problems related to after-separation stabilization and booster-phase initialization that still today ramain elusive for american specilaists (leaving aside stabilization and initialization at high-supersonic delivery....) those ballistic missile simulators must be delivered by C-17 at low subsonic speed and mid altitude with pallets and parachutes to allow the missile to reach the stable position to allow its initialization.





    Obviously those target missiles are very "rude" and technically light years far from quasi-ballistic high-maneuvrable missiles in the class of Искандер-М or Кинжал.

    The most advanced air-launched target missile in force with the US is of Israeli construction (for comparison the AQM-37C of US design is incapable eveen to simulate early version of X-22, cause the lack of sustained powered dive with pseudo-random steering until collision),that is also the unique western-backing nation having shown some scientifical success in the design and realization of aero-ballistic missiles (mostly thanks to some iniections of specialists coming from the ex-URSS after the break-up) and is the Sparrow target missiles   -Black,  Blue, and Silver in growing order of range and capabilities - but also them are at maximum capable to simulate largely outdated BMs (Scud C/D and Shihab).

    https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Silver-Sparrow.pdf
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    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:20 pm

    Looks to me like the THAAD warhead detonates in proximity and not by actual point impact.

    POS, indeed.

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    Post  Hole on Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm

    Pershing II flew like a normal ballistic missile, only a few kilometres before the target the warhead was separated and guided by a radar towards the target. It couldn´t make turns or evasive maneuvres.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:16 pm

    Hole wrote:Pershing II flew like a normal ballistic missile, only a few kilometres before the target the warhead was separated and guided by a radar towards the target. It couldn´t make turns or evasive maneuvres.

    Exactly.

    Arrow is simply lying because he has to in order to make it sound like US actually has said capabilities. But they don't. There is no maneuvering warheads for US missiles let alone Pershing. He has to make up stories and lies because his pathetic country has a crap missile structure and their ABM system is barely capable of shooting down a Scud based missile
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    Post  Hole on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:23 pm

    If hypersonic missiles wouldn´t bring some new capabilities, nobody would invest in them, but all big countries spending billions into their development.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:07 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Really?   Suspect  Name me one other quasi-ballistic air-launched missile that is designed to attack ships from the zenith (where radar coverage is poor) at hypersonic velocities from a 1000km range....

    you're wrong its ~1,300km Razz Razz Razz

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