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    Western propaganda #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:00 am

    But why doesn't she like it... they are living the American dream aren't they?
    franco
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    Post  franco on Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:But why doesn't she like it... they are living the American dream aren't they?

    Apparently some family history with Nazi Ukrainian nationalist... but vague on details so could all be BS.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:34 am

    Well if it is because she opposes Ukrainian nazis then I can understand why she would not be happy with the state of the Ukraine...
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    Post  Regular on Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:35 am

    franco wrote:
    GarryB wrote:But why doesn't she like it... they are living the American dream aren't they?

    Apparently some family history with Nazi Ukrainian nationalist... but vague on details so could all be BS.  

    She is jew. Her opinion matters nothing. When there are jews involved they stir the hate between any nationalities. She can pretend she is russian and insult ukrainian, then do vice versa. And when shit hits the fan- she becomes a jewish. These how it works with them and Israeli neighbors know it the best.
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:41 pm

    Regular wrote:
    franco wrote:
    GarryB wrote:But why doesn't she like it... they are living the American dream aren't they?

    Apparently some family history with Nazi Ukrainian nationalist... but vague on details so could all be BS.  

    She is jew. Her opinion matters nothing. When there are jews involved they stir the hate between any nationalities. She can pretend she is russian and insult ukrainian, then do vice versa. And when shit hits the fan- she becomes a jewish. These how it works with them and Israeli neighbors know it the best.

    Ah Jesus Christ.

    What is it with you and your backwardness Regular?

    My father's Jewish - he's from the Ukraine, but came to Russia originally to study back in the Soviet era. Lived in Israel in the 90s for 6 months, but couldn't stand the nationalism and propaganda there; didn't identify with the Jewish state in any way. Defends Russia to foreigners, big critic of the government though among Russian-speakers, anti what he sees as adventures in the Ukraine. Lives abroad now in Europe and hasn't been back to Russia for nearly 10 years. But on the night that little stand-off happened with Trump over Syria he phoned me up to tell me that we should sink all the yankee ships to the bottom of the Meditteranean if they launch missiles at Russian bases; that enough is enough. I didn't have the heart to tell him that even if they did, that WW3 mutual mass-suicide wouldn't solve anyone's problems.

    I don't think Mila Kunis means to insult either Russians or Ukrainians. She said that people say Russian sounds like Klingon, but to her it sounds romantic. What's so offensive about that?

    American Jews are split between reactionary right-wing (who are further split into Zionists and those who are quite anti-Israel, but nationalists of Jewish identity), and those who are the same as other Americans and rapidly assimilate, intermarry and so on. There's also a minority of religious Jews there, who are also split into radical pro-Israeli sentiment and radical anti-Israeli sentiment (albeit more of the former). Among Russian Jews many assimilate into American society and the wider Jewish community there. There are also some that continue to identify with Russian/ex-Soviet culture; during the World Cup, there was a horde of Russian flag-waving in Brighton Beach.

    There's no such thing as what you're talking about. 2 Jews, 3 opinions as the saying goes. Maybe this confuses some people, that assume that every Jew is one and the same person, a schizophrenic hive mind. In as far as they're a single people, they have less cohesiveness on politics, sympathies, ideologies, etc... than other peoples, not more.

    Israelis act the way they do because it's the Middle East. Every minority there is opportunistic and ethno-nationalist seeking superpower patronage (Jews, Kurds, etc...), and the majorities are messianic-fundamentalist or chauvinist-assimilatory (Iranians, Arabs, Turks). This is what happens when regressive ideals are popular and regions are war-torn. Let's not build repeat all this in Europe.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:57 am

    But wouldn't that be called blowback... Europe... in particular Britain and France have done a lot of ground work in the Middle East to ensure conflict and prevent unity... a unified arab world would challenge the west seeing as how they happen to be sitting on the wests oil supply.

    Of course unity in the western world is about as hollow as unity in Europe...

    And I agree it is important to point out that there are Jews who think Israel is a bad idea and creates tension and hostility towards Jews with little to no chance of peace in the region... palestinians are not allowed a state why should jews have one?

    Or more precisely certain jews are preventing palestinians from statehood, why should those jews be allowed a state?
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:But wouldn't that be called blowback... Europe... in particular Britain and France have done a lot of ground work in the Middle East to ensure conflict and prevent unity... a unified arab world would challenge the west seeing as how they happen to be sitting on the wests oil supply.

    Of course unity in the western world is about as hollow as unity in Europe...

    And I agree it is important to point out that there are Jews who think Israel is a bad idea and creates tension and hostility towards Jews with little to no chance of peace in the region... palestinians are not allowed a state why should jews have one?

    Or more precisely certain jews are preventing palestinians from statehood, why should those jews be allowed a state?

    Well we can use that argument against anyone can't we. The same Britain and France did plenty to prevent plenty of peoples establishing states in Africa, Asia, etc...
    America is a state only because its colonists wiped out the native people and their states first.
    Russia has its current form because it also colonized Siberia, the Caucasus.
    And so on.

    I prefer to think of things from a real perspective than an idealist one (whether good or bad ideals). Israel is a state, with millions of people that have already lived a few generations in it; no matter where they originally came from. One way or the other it won't be right to deport them or some such. Same as other states in the world. The trouble is not with the fact that it's a state, but with its politics. Maybe they should just not interfere and conduct operations, and that will be enough for a Palestinian state to come about. Maybe they should withdraw to its old borders and actively broker a compromise with the Palestinian elite class, facilitate the establishment of independent Palestine. It's possible that the only legitimate Israel is one that's not a Jewish one, but that's joint with Palestinian lands and people as well. I don't know, nor does it much concern me - it's just a tiny corner of a very big planet, and there are more important things to worry about in Russia.

    As for unity in Europe - it is certainly hollow as it doesn't have any sort of political-economic system that would allow that. Rather, one that makes social division, disenfranchisement with 'values', exploitation of the itinerant working class in poorer members, the rise of nationalist and reactionary political parties - all inevitable. However it's still way ahead of the Middle East; no need to regress quite that far.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:58 am

    The problem with unity in Europe is that it is forced... a group decides what everyone should think and then demands everyone think the same way they do... except the people of europe never get to chose who is part of that group, and they are often fairly radical and seem to be rather left.

    More of a problem is the people who are offended because other people don't agree with their views... without any discussion on the matter at all.

    Trump won the election because the Hilary group thought they had it in the bag and the media supported them in that view right up until she lost because she was doing enough to what she thought would get her a win and nothing more... she didn't care what all americans wanted or thought, she just said what she thought would get her 51% of the vote, and when it didn't happen it was everything else to blame... Russian hackers, Russian collusion...
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:The problem with unity in Europe is that it is forced... a group decides what everyone should think and then demands everyone think the same way they do... except the people of europe never get to chose who is part of that group, and they are often fairly radical and seem to be rather left.

    They are neo-liberals. It's an ideology closer to the Hegelian principle than to anything based in material reality. In the 19th century, the Hegelian principle was used to explain that misery and social ills during industrialization came because people were becoming religiously alienated. Classic chicken before the egg falacy.

    Nowadays, the thinking is that 3rd world countries suffer because they are not 'democratic' enough. Domestic society suffers, because it is not 'tolerant' enough. All that's needed is to change people's patterns of thinking and demonize everyone who thinks differently, it's oh so simple.

    Liberalism claims to be the result of the enlightment, the triumph of reason over superstition. Perhaps in its original form it was true, but nowadays it has devolved to the form of a religion, and a moralistic value system. Be a better Christian, be a more enlightened liberal - and everything will be okay, all the ills of society will vanish. And if absolutely everyone in the world was a good liberal, or a good Muslim, or whatever - then there would be world peace. Yeah, good luck turning everyone to one set of ideals, and even more luck with the notion that they'll all follow these tenets faithfully. Here comes in the neccessity for a religious or ideological vanguard. Which will inevitably become corrupted after a few generations, even if they were once true believers.

    More of a problem is the people who are offended because other people don't agree with their views... without any discussion on the matter at all.

    In rather the same manner of past century religious intolerance and witch-hunts. If you believe in a set of religious doctrines for the basis of a society and another person believes in a different set of religious doctrines; of course there will be a conflict.

    In the same manner, when you believe in a bunch of ideological superstitions and a moral value system as the basis of a political system (you have your own idea of how people are supposed to be, and don't accept them for what they are as a result of their social, economic conditions and historical memory); you're going to come into conflict with those with different ideals. When Muslim immigrants in Europe are asked to integrate, they are actually being asked to swap their religion for another. Now of course many of those Muslim immigrants bring with them backward ideals themselves - but pressuring on them to adopt a (state-sponsored) different value system and for all intents and purposes - religion - will create tension. And even if they were all converted, it won't actually solve anything as the state is backwards itself and justifies war and aggression by some arbitrary morals; building 'freedom', 'democracy', etc.... (which the actual reasons in reality have little to do with). The stronger such states are and the more influence they have, the worse for the world.

    The state should not support any value system, it should be based on scientific reasoning. Or if it does, then concrete things everyone wants and can relate with - peace, economic development, education, etc... with progress, old antagonisms will go away by themselves.

    This is not to say that idealist values and religions have no value. They surely do - but only in the manner of an individual or collective philosophy and way of behavior towards other people. In that sense they are desirable, but in the field of politics, or any science - they're not.

    Trump won the election because the Hilary group thought they had it in the bag and the media supported them in that view right up until she lost because she was doing enough to what she thought would get her a win and nothing more... she didn't care what all americans wanted or thought, she just said what she thought would get her 51% of the vote, and when it didn't happen it was everything else to blame... Russian hackers, Russian collusion...

    Internal enemies too - white men, the patriarchy, etc...

    Couldn't be because she was a war-mongering power-hungry bitch and advocated more of the same, while Trump was a politician that whatever his views, actually seemed to be sincere in what he said, and came in from outside the democrat-republican establishment.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:50 pm

    So the warmonger and blow hard John Bolton has accused Russia of stealing US rocket tech. LOL.

    This is an example of the perp accusing the victim of the crime. The US is badly behind across a whole range of rocket
    systems from hypersonics to nuclear propelled cruise missiles. Compare the Patriot systems to the S-400. Now that the US
    is scrambling to even have a supersonic anti-ship missile it starts accusing Russia of stealing. Stealing what? Obsolete
    US junk? As with the Shkval, it is the USA that is trying to steal Russian rocket tech.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:21 pm

    Americans really are imbeciles and inadequates. They are a day late and a dollar short to the hypersonic missile party and accuse
    others of stealing. Was this like pre-theft? Bolton and the rest of the self-anointed exceptional ones have no credibility. America
    has not even tried to deploy similar systems and is only now tendering for their development. Did Russia steal the tenders?

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:48 pm

    Walrus John Bolton should lay off the sea cucumbers.

    Western propaganda #2 - Page 5 Bolton-Walrus
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Yesterday at 5:56 am

    Hey... that is not fair... to Walruses...

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