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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:46 pm

    Isos wrote:
    NATO tracking with radar perhaps, but then any radar signals become targets too, so I doubt they would be operating them as openly in a situation where a Russian carrier will be launching torpedoes at submarines...

    Sound doesn't stop at water level. It goes through. A submarine will detect the launch of a torpedo but also the launch of a rocket from a ship just like it will detect a helicopter in the air.

    Best sonars can even detect the noise made by humans in the ship.
    ok, let's say that the enemy submarine detects that the ship launched one or more missiles...
    so if the sub is 50 km away they will maybe know that the ship has launched something (they cannot know if it is an antisub calibr, an antiship missile, a cruise.missile to kill some terrorists 2000 km away or a redut air defence missile.

    If it was an antisub calibr, they have one or two minutes more to pray and send decoys before one or more torpedoes enter the water very close to that sub.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:26 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:1. Papa is right, Planes cannot take off the Kuz full weight, this is WELLLLLLLLL KNOWN. Don't pretend otherwise.

    2. They lost one to arresting gears and they lost another since it couldn't land due to the broken arresting gear it was circling the carrier for a bit before it did eventually run out of fuel and crashed into the ocean.


    There were a couple of studies and articles that were arguing that the F-18 could take off from the ski jump in the indian carrier at max takeoff weight.

    http://cppcms.com/files/skijump/

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13883/boeing-says-super-hornet-fully-compatible-with-indian-navy-ski-jump-carriers

    From what I understand, the mig29 and su33 can takeoff with full load from the longest takeoff position available (180m?) on kuznetov (or on the Indian carrier), but that prevent takeoff and landing to happen at the same time.

    Since a full load is not always needed, most of the time they start from the "short" takeoff position (95m?), partially fueled and equipped,  leaving so the angled deck free for landings.

    Unconfirmed studies are just conjecture.

    There is no record or instance of the MIG29 or SU33 ever taking off with fuel weapons load.

    Despite people here saying it can it has NEVER been done.

    I'll believe it when it happens not because some guys on this site who read articles tell me it can.

    No offense to you.
    x_54_u43
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    Post  x_54_u43 on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:09 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:1. Papa is right, Planes cannot take off the Kuz full weight, this is WELLLLLLLLL KNOWN. Don't pretend otherwise.

    2. They lost one to arresting gears and they lost another since it couldn't land due to the broken arresting gear it was circling the carrier for a bit before it did eventually run out of fuel and crashed into the ocean.


    There were a couple of studies and articles that were arguing that the F-18 could take off from the ski jump in the indian carrier at max takeoff weight.

    http://cppcms.com/files/skijump/

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13883/boeing-says-super-hornet-fully-compatible-with-indian-navy-ski-jump-carriers

    From what I understand, the mig29 and su33 can takeoff with full load from the longest takeoff position available (180m?) on kuznetov (or on the Indian carrier), but that prevent takeoff and landing to happen at the same time.

    Since a full load is not always needed, most of the time they start from the "short" takeoff position (95m?), partially fueled and equipped,  leaving so the angled deck free for landings.

    Unconfirmed studies are just conjecture.

    There is no record or instance of the MIG29 or SU33 ever taking off with fuel weapons load.

    Despite people here saying it can it has NEVER been done.

    I'll believe it when it happens not because some guys on this site who read articles tell me it can.

    No offense to you.

    https://i.servimg.com/u/f13/19/43/64/46/image_10.jpg

    You going to keep playing dumb huh?

    Facts are facts, whether you like them or not. Pic literally from Yefim Gordon's book.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:36 am

    Ah so because some guy writes in a book it makes it true, sorry it's not.

    Just like you can give me a book from some US-based experts who make claims in books that aren't true.

    Playing stupid no, show me a record of a full load aircraft ever taking off from the Kuz then we can talk about facts.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:14 am

    Playing stupid no, show me a record of a full load aircraft ever taking off from the Kuz then we can talk about facts.

    Now who is playing dumb... an Su-33 can't carry external fuel tanks and despite its land based equivalents it is not cleared to carry bombs over 500kg so it is actually not possible for the Su-33 to even be loaded to its max weapon payload weight.

    R-73 missiles weigh 110kgs each and the R-27E model AAMs it carries weigh about 350kg each.

    A full AAM weapon load for an Su-33 would be four R-73s and 6 R-27Es... R-77s are lighter than R-27Es so this is the heaviest AAM payload it could possibly carry which works out to (4 x 110) + (350 x 6) = 440 + 2,100, which equals about 2.5 tons which is nothing like the max possible weight of weapons it could carry, but it is what it would carry... or lighter with the R-27s (350kgs) replaced by R-77s at 175kgs each would make the weapon load 1.5 tons... hardly a heavy load for such a big aircraft.

    The fact that there is no record of something in the west... does that mean it never happened.... wouldn't they test it with full fuel and full weapons load... which of course leads up to the very obvious question... why would they bother with a long run takeoff point if not to take off with max fuel and max AAM weapon load.

    90% of the time flankers don't even operate with full fuel tanks on land, so I suspect they don't at sea either... you don't always need that sort of range.

    On their new carriers they will likely launch an inflight refuelling plane with the cats and launch fighters with full AA weapon load (which is a light weapon load and as it will be the Su-57 it will be internal and low drag too) and three quarter fuel with a fuel top up just after launch and then off to attack or patrol...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:37 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    NATO tracking with radar perhaps, but then any radar signals become targets too, so I doubt they would be operating them as openly in a situation where a Russian carrier will be launching torpedoes at submarines...

    Sound doesn't stop at water level. It goes through. A submarine will detect the launch of a torpedo but also the launch of a rocket from a ship just like it will detect a helicopter in the air.

    Best sonars can even detect the noise made by humans in the ship.
    ok, let's say that the enemy submarine detects that the ship launched one or more missiles...
    so if the sub is 50 km away they will maybe know that the ship has launched something (they cannot know if it is an antisub calibr, an antiship missile, a cruise.missile to kill some terrorists 2000 km away or a redut air defence missile.

    If it was an antisub calibr, they have one or two minutes more to pray and send decoys before one or more torpedoes enter the water very close to that sub.

    Yes.

    ASW is not an easy task. Modern sonars will detect any torpedo launch and if a sonar is affected by the salinity or temperature of water, same goes for the sonar of the other guy.

    That's why soviet sub always had kept very good diving deapth, speed and numbers of decoys contrary to nato who think that stealth is always the answer.

    A french admiral said about FREMM that in the best conditions their sonar can hear at 150km away probably big targets like civilian ships and in very bad conditions at less than 1km. That's the same for everybody.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:26 am

    Yeah, I don't think you guys really understand sound and sonars...

    If the new CVN, which will be a 70-90K ton vessel launches a 91ER1 from a UKSK launcher, 50km away even the best microphone is not going to detect the vibrations from the launch travelling through the ships structure to the water it is sitting in, with the sonar operator in the sub saying... oops look out boys... they just launched a torpedo at us... that is just ridiculous.

    They likely wont even recognise the vibration as being a missile launch considering all the other noises in a carrier... the refrigeration units probably make more vibration than a rocket launch.... which is just high pressure high energy gas blowing the missile into the air where the rocket on the missile is started and accelerates the weapon to the target area.

    If it was a sub launching I torpedo I could believe it... pumping water into the tube to prepare for launch, opening outer and inner doors and then the compressed gas released underwater pushing several tons of missile out of the tube into the sea water with the weapon floating up to the surface and then igniting its rocket engine to clear the water and start on its way... distinctive sounds made in the water that a sonar operator might recognise as being rather different from whales farting...
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    Post  andalusia on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:46 am

    Is the su-33 available for export and what makes it different from su-27 and su-30?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:54 am

    andalusia wrote:Is the su-33 available for export and what makes it different from su-27 and su-30?

    It is the naval variant of su-27 to be used on aircraft carriers and it's less capable than modern su-30.
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:56 pm

    Couple of pages of HD detail pics of the new model
    http://foto-i-mir.ru/lamantin-mvms-2019-1/
    http://foto-i-mir.ru/lamantin-mvms-2019-2/
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    Post  Gazputin on Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:22 am

    what is the actual role of Russian Naval aviation anyway ?

    sure choppers from destroyers etc ….. no brainer
    tick

    they have 1 carrier ….
    that seems a bit small for heavy fighters like the Su-33 ?
    Mig-29 probably better suited ? but lacks range …

    surely you'd be making longer range Mig-29s ?
    a naval Mig-35 …. but what is the point right now ?

    meanwhile ….. land-based squadrons - they seem to be replacing Su-24s with Su-30s …. makes sense to me
    but does that mean that Crimea and Kaliningrad are like "aircraft carriers" ?
    I think so …. ??

    meanwhile the Su-57 is a bit smaller than an Su-27 …. perfect for a future carrier ?

    seems …. just wear out the current Mig-29s and Su-33s …. get rid of everything else for shore based work
    and just use Su-30s ….

    and get carrier based Su-57 variants later

    then all you need to do is sort out your maritime patrol aircraft ….
    I don't know why they don't use variants of the Tu-214 ? seems an obvious choice to me ….

    and make an AWACs aircraft for the new carrier ?
    Il-112 variant ? … seems a reasonable choice to me ? quite compact ...

    the answers … seem to be in the "parts bin"



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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:07 pm

    The Russian Ministry of Defense has formulated tactical and technical requirements for the creation of an Arctic version of the Ka-65 Minoga combat helicopter, Izvestia reports.
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2671410.html
    https://iz.ru/897278/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/minoga-morozhenaia-ka-65-moderniziruiut-dlia-raboty-v-arktike

    https://3mv.ru/131797-palubnyy-vertolet-ka-65-minoga-okutan-taynoy.html

    https://iz.ru/899610/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/vintokrylye-loshadki-vertolety-ka-29-vozvrashchaiutsia-v-stroi

    https://iz.ru/884119/aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko/morskoi-chasovoi-kamovy-vozmut-pod-okhranu-atomnye-podlodki
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:24 am

    Is the su-33 available for export and what makes it different from su-27 and su-30?

    The Su-33 was essentially an Su-27 with air to air capability but iron bomb and unguided rocket only capability... just like the original Su-27s.
    It was modified to detect and shoot down targets over water and had R-27 and R-27E missiles optimised for engaging targets over water for that purpose.
    I have read they also had compatibility with the Kh-31 missile intended for anti ship use but have never seen that confirmed.

    Otherwise increased strength undercarriage and folding wings and horizontal tail surfaces allow it to fit into spaces not much bigger than a folded MiG-33, and of course the tail hook.

    Recently they have had some upgrades, reportedly with the Gefest & T bombing system, and there may have been other upgrades, likely including R-77 compatibility... but they haven't been built for a rather long time and their upgrades are primarily based around adding minor unguided air to ground capacity and expanding its air to air capacity, because it is primarily a fighter.

    The original Su-30 was just an Su-27UB two seat Su-27, but the Su-30 family have been upgraded into fully multirole fighter bombers and the Su-27SM3 aircraft have also been adapted to carry a range of guided air to ground munitions... the Su-33 is very basic in that regard because it is a fighter, that is what they want their carriers for... air defence.

    Note they rejected the fully multirole MiG-33 because it cost more than the Su-33 and had less flight range and payload capacity and the air to ground capacity didn't really interest them... they had enormous anti ship missiles launched from ships and subs for that role and they had no land attack roles at all.
    So they bought the cheaper simpler Su-33s.

    When India bought some MiGs however production was set up and paid for so they tacked on the end of the Indian order their own order and saved a lot of money.

    The MiGs were able to replace the Su-25s on board which were used purely as trainers, so they added two seat trainers and also a ground attack air capability that the Kuznetsov previously didn't have.

    they have 1 carrier ….
    that seems a bit small for heavy fighters like the Su-33 ?
    Mig-29 probably better suited ? but lacks range …

    With a full air to air missiles weapon load they are not that heavy.

    The purpose of the carriers is to provide aircraft for detection (AWACS) and defence/attack of air threats like incoming missiles or aircraft.

    Flight range is useful as it extends the protection ring, but right now cannot be fully exploited because the AWACS is currently AEW in the form of the Ka-31, which is vastly better than nothing of course for low flying threats.

    meanwhile ….. land-based squadrons - they seem to be replacing Su-24s with Su-30s …. makes sense to me
    but does that mean that Crimea and Kaliningrad are like "aircraft carriers" ?
    I think so …. ??

    In a sense yes, but the point of aircraft carriers for the Russian navy is to allow them to operate beyond the reach of Russian land based forces.

    They wont be invading countries left and right, but they do need to project power and for that they need ships and subs and those ships and subs need to be protected from enemy air power and missiles.

    meanwhile the Su-57 is a bit smaller than an Su-27 …. perfect for a future carrier ?

    Bit smaller, much more powerful engines and most of the time no external weapons drag...

    seems …. just wear out the current Mig-29s and Su-33s …. get rid of everything else for shore based work
    and just use Su-30s ….

    Not every mission requires a big huge plane... even the USAF couldn't afford an all F-22 based airforce and thought the solution was a lighter cheaper aircraft that could replace all the fighters in the western airforces... F-35.

    The point is that the logic was sound but the implimentation was all wrong and was too driven by people who lost touch with the whole point of a smaller lighter aircraft.

    Generally as a rule of thumb a smaller lighter aircraft is cheaper than the equivalent bigger aircraft, but when you try to pack the same or better performance into the smaller aircraft what you end up is a smaller lighter aircraft that is much more expensive and complicated than it needed to be...

    and get carrier based Su-57 variants later

    Well any new CVNs they build could use them but MiG-35s are of a unified design to the MiG-29KR so continuing to use them on land and at sea makes sense, and I certainly suspect that a navalised Su-35 could fairly easily be developed... the last offering from Sukhoi was the Su-33KUB which looked like an Su-34 to be honest but with the round nose radar of the Flanker family rather than the flat nose of the Fullback. Certainly the Su-57 makes a lot of sense even if it costs 50 million dollars each...

    and make an AWACs aircraft for the new carrier ?
    Il-112 variant ? … seems a reasonable choice to me ? quite compact ...

    An AWACS platform will either need enormous power or enormous lift or both... something like a twin engined An-2 or an Il-112 with the engines of the An-12 equivalent... perhaps turbofans rather than props...

    I am sure they know what they are doing.

    The Russian Ministry of Defense has formulated tactical and technical requirements for the creation of an Arctic version of the Ka-65 Minoga combat helicopter, Izvestia reports.

    Interesting it mentions amphibious capability which would be good... Helix could land in water but unlike the Mi-14 was not intended to operate in water very much...

    I always thought the idea of an anti sub helo that was amphibious that could land in the water and lower a dipping sonar would be more efficient than hovering for long periods with the same dipping sonar...

    Also in terms of rescue it would be easier too.

    The other article also mentions an extra engine for heating the cabin and allowing starting and extra energy for the main engines, which sounds to me like a gas turbine APU with extra functions of perhaps heating the main engines before their start up, and providing heat for the crew and likely main rotors via electrical deicing perhaps.

    The fact that this new aircraft needs to operate from existing ships and helipads suggests it can't be much bigger than the Helix design which means it might look very similar to the Helix but perhaps with a rear ramp exit and a tail mounted propulsion system to boost forward speed, and with this information a ship based hull for operations in water...

    One article shows this picture:

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 29 15597810

    Which could be a useful replacement design for the Mi-14 and the land based Mi-17 for naval roles, but it is too big to fit on ships or to even land on their landing spots safely which reduces its capacity to hop from ship to shore etc.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:57 am

    ..an anti sub helo that was amphibious that could land in the water and lower a dipping sonar would be more efficient than hovering for long periods with the same dipping sonar...
    they could also drop sonobuoys instead..
    The fact that this new aircraft needs to operate from existing ships and helipads suggests it can't be much bigger than the Helix design..
    the Arctic version will operate from new Arctic OPVs & other versions from UDKs & TAKR/CV/Ns, so they can be somewhat bigger. They could be parked with their tails over water, so space won't be an issue.
    For smaller ships, smaller versions or folding tails could be developed.
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    Post  medo on Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:44 am

    andalusia wrote:Is the su-33 available for export and what makes it different from su-27 and su-30?

    Su-33 is no more in production and was never meant for export. China now produce their J-15, but I don't think they will export them.

    Su-33 was navalised Su-27 with additional canards, folding wings, tail hook and stronger undercarriage and constuction for carrier operations. It also have stronger engine Al-31F3 and better anticorosion protection for over the sea operations. It also have some changes in navigation suite.

    After 2000 they went through overhaul and light modernization in KNAAPO, where they got new L-150 Pastel RWR and GPS/GLONASS satelitte navigavion. In 2016 they went through another upgrade, when they got SVP-24-33 complex, which improve it ground attack capabilities. SVP-24-33 bring to Su-33 data link improvement as it already have IFDL from the beginning to share picture and work in groups in air defense role. SVP-24 bring ground and sea target delivery data link and with that full situation picture. SVP-24-33 also give digital map generator and new LCD MFD. Now they will go through another upgrade to upgrade its radar to multirole capabilities, that it could effectively work against ground and naval targets with guided munitions and to got new AAMs. With this upgrade it will be comparable with Su-30M2. Su-33 are also receiving new upgraded Al-31F3 engines, most probably with FADEC and longer service life.

    With new engines Su-33 will for sure serve another two or three decades, but not on carrier, where MiG-29K/KUB will serve. When new carrier will be build, it will have naval Su-57 on the deck. From ground airbases Su-33 could serve for a long time.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:41 am

    they could also drop sonobuoys instead..

    Even the cheapest sonobuoys are expensive, and while during a war hunting enemy threats they are worth it, during peace time they can be quite an economic burden.

    Perhaps some sort of swarm unmanned vehicle could be used so that when they are finished with their job they all gather together and are collected again for reuse...

    the Arctic version will operate from new Arctic OPVs & other versions from UDKs & TAKR/CV/Ns, so they can be somewhat bigger. They could be parked with their tails over water, so space won't be an issue.

    Even the new design ships are optimised to carry the Helix design helicopters rather than bigger ones like the Mi-14 or Mi-8 family.

    For smaller ships, smaller versions or folding tails could be developed.

    But why?

    The Ka-25 was a good helo, though a bit under powered. The Ka-27 family that replaced it was not recognised as a new type for years because it looked very similar but was a total upgrade in terms of engines and equipment.

    I suspect with this new Minoga type helo apart from an amphibious hull it is going to be very very similar to the current Helix... except as mentioned it will have much more powerful engines and likely an extra pusher engine too for higher flight speed and extra insulation for operating in extremely low temperatures.

    With new engines Su-33 will for sure serve another two or three decades, but not on carrier, where MiG-29K/KUB will serve.

    The Russian navy is in the process of changing over to a new battle management system that all net centricy and rubbish and they will be finding their Su-33s lacking a bit in this area. Their new MiGs, they will find might not have the same flight range as the bigger Sukhois, but they are much smarter and are better at many different things including recon.

    Previously the Navy just wanted a radar in the air in the form of a helicopter for AWACS and a few fighters with air to air missiles to detect incoming anti ship missiles and incoming enemy fighters and for them to not only give early warning to the ships about said attack but also to use their own missiles to whittle down the numbers of the incoming threats while providing the ships with real time information regarding the numbers and strength and speed and direction etc etc of the attacking threat.

    The MiG-29 might not carry 10 AAMs like the Su-33 but its sensors and datalink means it is better able to track targets and pass that target data to ships, and the newer missiles it carries are lighter and rather better performance weapons.

    Of course with a few upgrades the Su-33 could equal or better the MiGs, it is just a question of funding and will.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:19 am

    GarryB wrote:Even the new design ships are optimised to carry the Helix design helicopters rather than bigger ones like the Mi-14 or Mi-8 family. ..I suspect with this new Minoga type helo apart from an amphibious hull it is going to be very very similar to the current Helix...
    IMO, the Minoga will be little longer than the Ka-27 to accommodate a bigger cabin/tail engine with props; they may also develop an AWACS/COD versions with bigger radar/fuel tanks to replace the Ka-31, just in case the fixed wings won't be there/enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-27#Specifications_(Ka-27)


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    Post  medo on Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:The MiG-29 might not carry 10 AAMs like the Su-33 but its sensors and datalink means it is better able to track targets and pass that target data to ships, and the newer missiles it carries are lighter and rather better performance weapons.



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    A little about data link from basic Su-27 and Su-33. It have full data link exchange with others in group through IFDL and with GCI ground control / carrier through air to ground data link like Lazur. They have full air situation picture and could share their picture with each other. With SVP-24 upgrade, Su-33 also got capabilities to share ground and naval surface targets through data link. MiG-29KR doesn't have better data link networking capabilities, than today Su-33. For now MiG-29KR have with Zhuk-M better radar than Su-33. But now with the second phase of modernization, Su-33 radar will be upgraded to domestic N001VEP level, the same as in Su-30M2 and Su-27SM3 and it is actually better than Zhuk-M. With this upgrade Su-33 will be also armed with new R-77-1 AAMs and guided bombs and missiles.

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-04-10/su-33-begin-2nd-phase-upgrade-while-russia-mulls-carrier-options
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:57 am

    Su-33 is still a huge target, specially if it is facing 5th generation fighters, that all russia's neighbours are buying in huge quantities, which drastically reduce the range of its radar against them while with its 20 m2 rcs it wil will be detected at max range.

    Its time to move on su-57K+r-77M as the su-57 is ready.

    Even with 15 su-57, Kuznetsov will be 10x better than it is actually. With kh-59mk2 it can also act as a nuclear deterrence and they would not have a nuclear triade but 4 means of striking as kuznetsov range + su-57 range+kh-59mk2 range means they can hit any country while being out of danger.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:28 am

    Isos wrote:Su-33 is still a huge target, specially if it is facing 5th generation fighters, that all russia's neighbours are buying in huge quantities, which drastically reduce the range of its radar against them while with its 20 m2 rcs it wil will be detected at max range.

    Its time to move on su-57K+r-77M as the su-57 is ready.

    Even with 15 su-57, Kuznetsov will be 10x better than it is actually. With kh-59mk2 it can also act as a nuclear deterrence and they would not have a nuclear triade but 4 means of striking as kuznetsov range + su-57 range+kh-59mk2 range means they can hit any country while being out of danger.

    Eh Navalized SU-57's aren't really needed, maybe in small amounts but Navalized SU-35's would do just fine.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:39 am

    With kh-59mk2 it can also act as a nuclear deterrence and they would not have a nuclear triade but 4 means of striking as kuznetsov range + su-57 range+kh-59mk2 range means they can hit any country while being out of danger.
    They already have N-tipped SLCMs. HS Zircons can destroy targets w/o being N-tipped.
    Will the Su-57 be able to take off the Adm. K deck with 930 kg CM + 4-6 AAMs, not to mention fuel, for self-defense?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-59
    Its Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
    Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57#Specifications_(T-50)

    Compared with the Su-33:
    Loaded weight: 29,940 kg (66,010 lb)
    Max. takeoff weight: 33,000 kg (72,752 lb)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-33#Specifications


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:55 am

    Isos wrote:Su-33 is still a huge target, specially if it is facing 5th generation fighters, that all russia's neighbours are buying in huge quantities, which drastically reduce the range of its radar against them while with its 20 m2 rcs it wil will be detected at max range.

    Huge quantities? Suspect You've been reading too much LM sales literature....
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:43 am

    They currently don't have a carrier at sea so I would not be too worried about what primary fighter they were using.

    As work on new radar types progresses, the radars carried by Russian carriers will only get better and better.

    Also keep in mind the Aircraft the Russian carriers are using are not to invade and take over countries or to eliminate threats like Iran or Iraq or Yemen... or the UK or France.

    The purpose of the fighters is to operate over the Russian surface action group and defend the ships and subs and the AWACS platforms being used.

    400km range 40N6s can take out F-35s if needed, and any ship or land based threats to the surface action group can be handled with hypersonic manouvering ship or sub launched missiles.

    New generation radars and sensors and air to air weapons will continue to make Russian carrier aircraft effective and relevant... without costing a fortune.

    They are working on a new light 5th gen fighter and probably a range of other projects as well... most models show a range of aircraft on them and there is no reason why their new carriers wont have a variety of fighters depending upon the needs of the group.

    Fighters operating CAP missions above the ships don't need enormous ranges and most of the time their information will come from the AWACS platform they are operating with anyway.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:33 am

    Again this is not the Soviet Navy, Russians have shown they want US styled carriers.

    I don't know why you keep saying this myth that they are designing their carriers according to a long-dead Soviet naval doctrine.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:41 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:I don't know why you keep saying this myth that they are designing their carriers according to a long-dead Soviet naval doctrine.
    Esp. after writing that the VMF will be tasked with SLOCs & friendly regimes' protection, which may include power projection ashore overseas, in the Southern & Western Hemispheres.
    There's a reason they spend a lot of $ sending Adm. K to Syria so their VMF could gain training & combat experience in that.

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