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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3

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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:10 pm

    Well they can use this light shtorm as a helicopter carrier and when needed load the migs.  Very Happy
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    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:43 pm

    "There will be, of course, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier but not in the short-term perspective," the Navy chief said.

    https://tass.com/defense/1067923
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:12 am

    Thats a rework of Ulyanovsk model.
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    Basing it off Ulyanovsk isn't a bad thing, it was a fully developed design in construction at the end of USSR so if they actually have the plans still it should be a good basis for a new carrier.
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:10 am

    Some more from IMDS http://bastion-karpenko.ru/lamantin-npkb/
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 27 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_01
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 27 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_02
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 27 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_03
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 27 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_04

    Confirming its Ulyanovsk based is the Project code 11430E vs Ulyanovsk 1143.7
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:43 am

    It is just a model, but those aew&c aircrafts remind me a lot the yak-44

    Bare in mind that I remember seeing Soviet carrier models from the 1970s that had MiG-23s on them because they really didn't want to reveal that they had MiG-29s and Su-27s in development at that time.

    This model looks like a Yak-44 but that could change too... they might develop new radar arrays that don't need to be carried like that but still give a 360 degree field of regard that could be built in to the aircraft structure and electronically scanned instead of manually rotated to detect targets...

    This one?

    No obvious funnels on there for GT engines...

    Nuke propulsion does not only mean compact and powerful energy source, but it means unlimited endurance for the basics of sailing around, and it leaves more space on board for aviation fuel and ammo which is the main endurance and persistence limiter for a carrier.

    Seems pretty clear they want helicopter carriers first, and regarding new aircraft carriers they already have an aircraft carrier but a new CVN will add much better AWACS support.

    I wonder if they might consider a biplane based on the An-2 but with a much more powerful engine and scaled up a bit with folding wing structures... AWACS aircraft don't need to be fast and large wing areas means low speed takeoff and landing speeds... it would just be a question of how high it can operate at...
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:42 am

    Ooh, just noticed something on this pic
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    There was that quote about 'innovative deck layout for simultaneous launch & recovery' and look we have a CVA-01 style 'Alaskan Taxiway' outboard of the island.
    Its a bit weird in that they have to then pass over/around the forward elevator but the point is they actually went for that solution.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:59 am

    No obvious funnels on there for GT engines...

    They already said about that. They will be integrated in the superstructure so that it take less space on the deck and reduce the IR signature.

    This model looks like a Yak-44 but that could change too... they might develop new radar arrays that don't need to be carried like that but still give a 360 degree field of regard that could be built in to the aircraft structure and electronically scanned instead of manually rotated to detect targets

    I was thinking the same. They already did that for su-57. A new awacs will probably have its sides covered with T/R so that the antenna is much bigger than on conventional awacs.

    There was that quote about 'innovative deck layout for simultaneous launch & recovery' and look we have a CVA-01 style 'Alaskan Taxiway' outboard of the island.
    Its a bit weird in that they have to then pass over/around the forward elevator but the point is they actually went for that solution.

    That's the same space as on Vikramanditia but here they use it. I think Kuznetsov also has that space but they don't use it. We can see it has place for 2 or 3 jets which is not useful.
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:21 am

    There is no Alaskan Highway on K
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    There is a pretty wide bit of deck on Vikramaditya but its clearly too narrow to be an Alaskan Highway I think its just legacy of the Kiev class.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:36 pm

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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:16 pm

    Is the 80-90kT empty weight or Max load, because if it's Loaded weight, then this would be the 70kT Carrier we've been hearing about.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:29 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Is the 80-90kT empty weight or Max load, because if it's Loaded weight, then this would be the 70kT Carrier we've been hearing about.

    Idk. The 70kt is another carrier but with conventional propulsion. It was presebted at army2019 but no photo were leaked. This one is a nuclear carrier.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:39 pm

    It's weired that they didn't propose it with only catapults. There is space for another two instead of the skijump. Maybe they don't trust the catapults or that would make it very expensive. Seeing how chinese and indians wants to switch from skijump to catapult, maybe they shoukd also start looking for a full catapults carrier.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:02 pm

    Isos wrote:It's weired that they didn't propose it with only catapults. There is space for another two instead of the skijump. Maybe they don't trust the catapults or that would make it very expensive. Seeing how chinese and indians wants to switch from skijump to catapult, maybe they shoukd also start looking for a full catapults carrier.

    It's not weird. It is a choice. Russians want to be able to takeoff without a ramp with their fighters.

    It offers operational flexibility (and being able to launch airplanes even with damage to the catapults) for the price of some space on the deck

    Indians say all and its opposite. I would not read too much in their declarations...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:20 pm


    Half the stuff on this LEGO set doesn't exist and other half is long past obsolete

    It's safe to say that this one goes straight into eehenie's wunderwaffle trashcan alongside Anime-class destroyer


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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:24 am

    Idk. The 70kt is another carrier but with conventional propulsion. It was presebted at army2019 but no photo were leaked. This one is a nuclear carrier.

    No. The 70K ton carrier will be a nuke propelled vessel, the only conventional designs they talked about are the 40K ton light carriers.

    It's weired that they didn't propose it with only catapults. There is space for another two instead of the skijump. Maybe they don't trust the catapults or that would make it very expensive. Seeing how chinese and indians wants to switch from skijump to catapult, maybe they shoukd also start looking for a full catapults carrier.

    The only aircraft that will need catapult launch are the AWACS platforms... the fighters will operate from the ski jump, so there will be two EMALS that can get AWACS and inflight refuelling aircraft airborne along the landing strip that is flat, and the fighter aircraft will be able to take off from 3-4 takeoff positions using the Ski jump.

    The route behind the command structure means aircraft can be prepared for launch and moved to the front two ski jump launch positions without getting in the way of the landing area.

    It means you can keep up a launch tempo even while landing aircraft and also gives you another line of preparation for launch when you are not landing aircraft... ie you can continuously launch two at a time whether landing planes or not. You can launch 4 at a time otherwise with separate preparation streams that don't overlap or interfere with the other... which makes them faster. Launching AWACs and inflight refuelling aircraft you could do two at a time, so they might adopt a procedure of launching one of each and once the AWACS is up and away it can immediately top up to max fuel and then start operations while the inflight refuelling aircraft tops up any fighters in the air and then lands again.

    It's not weird. It is a choice. Russians want to be able to takeoff without a ramp with their fighters.

    Using wheel chocks integrated into the deck and exhaust shields, also integrated into the deck means using the ski jump is faster and easier than the catapult and with an air to air load they can probably already operate at normal weapons load and full fuel load anyway.

    Half the stuff on this LEGO set doesn't exist and other half is long past obsolete

    It is an indicator of what it will be like... it will basically look like this but might have totally different aircraft or electronic sensors and systems on board when it enters service... if it does.

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    Post  hoom on Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:36 am

    Its worth pointing out that this new Ulyanovsk variant is not just some crazy stuff out of Krylov, its from Nevskoye.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:11 pm

    hoom wrote:Its worth pointing out that this new Ulyanovsk variant is not just some crazy stuff out of Krylov, its from Nevskoye.


    Personally, I don't see the reason not to use existing blueprints just alter them for the timeline it's being built in change around how the inside of the ship works.

    A carrier is a floating platform, whose job is to serve and launch planes, have a nice big deck and facilities to support Naval warfare.

    Long has the design can do that and is built for the modern era. Who really cares.

    The Russians should just pick one and start building it when possible, that would also shorten the time they need to develop it.

    IMO they are being way too picky with their carrier ideas right now.
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    Post  hoom on Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:20 pm

    Yes, I'm not complaining that its Ulyanovsk based, just making clear that is what it is.

    Also https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9C%D0%B2%D0%BC%D1%8113/
    “The concept-project of the aircraft carrier Lamantin is based on the developments of the Ulyanovsk project 1143.7 atomic heavy aircraft carrier cruiser. Accordingly, we propose to consider the option of a nuclear power plant and the Russian Navy” PKB Alexey Yukhnin.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:46 pm

    hoom wrote:Yes, I'm not complaining that its Ulyanovsk based, just making clear that is what it is.

    Also https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9C%D0%B2%D0%BC%D1%8113/
    “The concept-project of the aircraft carrier Lamantin is based on the developments of the Ulyanovsk project 1143.7 atomic heavy aircraft carrier cruiser. Accordingly, we propose to consider the option of a nuclear power plant and the Russian Navy” PKB Alexey Yukhnin.
    Even better. A modernised Ulyanovsk is what they would need. Also the original.ship was in construction at the time the Soviet union.disintegrated. that design was already completed. They just need to update it to reflect the advancements in technology (inluding EM cats instead of steam cats), and.with new power plants, nuclear reactors, electronics/sensors and.weapon systems.

    Furthermore they can probably optimise internal space and operational capabilities according to the lessons learned from operating the kuznetov.

    What is not clear is if it will carry some UKSK VLS modules (I hope so).


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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:05 pm

    What is not clear is if it will carry some UKSK VLS modules (I hope so).

    Very unlikely. All the models have no uksk on them. Price will already be high without them.

    Also the goal of a carrier is to carry fighters which can have their own cruise missiles. Like kh59mk2 which is smaller and cheaper than kalibr.

    The carrier will be protected by frigates and cruiser that will have their own uksk in very big numbers.
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    Post  hoom on Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:21 pm

    Price will already be high without them.
    Price of a few UKSK modules is nothing compared to the rest of a 70-80Kton CVN.
    The model has 4* rectangles in the bow area about where K & Ulyanovsk had Granits.

    Edit: they're further aft, between the bow launch spots
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    That location would mean they don't need high-speed compatible covers like the Granits.
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    Post  marcellogo on Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:16 pm


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    Idea of alaskan passageway is interesting but at this point it would be better to expand it further: i.e. transform it into a full angled deck that can be used to manage helo/stol operations separately from planes.
    Also the idea that catapult are needed to operate Awacs planes is IMHO worth of a second thought: Su-25UTG were able to operate from Kutnetzov so why not to try to design an high initial thrust radar carring plane?
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    Post  Hole on Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:45 pm

    According to a book about russian AWACS/AEW planes by Yefim Gordon the Yak-44 had (at least theoretically) enough power to start without a catapult.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:49 pm

    Hole wrote:According to a book about russian AWACS/AEW planes by Yefim Gordon the Yak-44 had (at least theoretically) enough power to start without a catapult.

    It would be better if you could quote Yakovlev officials.
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    Post  wilhelm on Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:50 am

    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:According to a book about russian AWACS/AEW planes by Yefim Gordon the Yak-44 had (at least theoretically) enough power to start without a catapult.

    It would be better if you could quote Yakovlev officials.

    There was a reason the engines selected for the Yak-44 were what they were.
    For comparison..
    The E-2 Hawkeye had a maximum take off weight of 26t and maximum installed power of 10 000hp.
    The Yak-44 had a MTOW of 40t and a maximum installed power of 28 000hp.
    So the Yak-44 was about 50% heavier, yet had almost 3 times the power.
    This was no accident.
    It was designed to take off both with catapult and without a catapult, and indeed, was intended to be based not only on the Ulyanovsk, but also on the Kuznetsov class.
    The order to Yakovlev to launch of the Yak-44 programme preceded not only the Ulyanovsk programme, but also the ordering and laying down of the Kuznetsov.

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