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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:55 am

    The RF economy may never grow large enough to justify & afford 2-3 CBGs;

    Not having a blue water navy is what will stop the RFs economy from growing... if the British or the French can afford two carriers then why not Russia?

    China will replace the US as the next SLOCs policeman & the Russian seaborne trade (a fraction of China's) outside of the NSR will be secure under her protection.

    China shows no interest in being the worlds policeman any more than Russia does... China will secure its own SLOCs but I doubt the will cross oceans to assist a Russian ship in trouble... and why would they?

    Currently Russias sea borne trade is negligible, but why do you think that wont change?

    Should Russia just accept it is a land locked country and only trade with its neighbours?

    Half of which are part of NATO?

    There is a whole world of countries out there that doesn't want to screw Russia and doesn't want to keep Russia as a poor resource asset... what the west calls the third world want to develop but have not been given any real opportunities by cooperation with the west because the west does not want them to develop and become strong and independent just like they don't want China or Russia to do the same.

    The reality is that there are a lot of countries that just want fair trade and up until recently they really only get that from China... Russia can offer cooperation too, and it does not need to be Russia or China... much of the world needs help... and I don't mean charity, I mean trade that benefits both sides and does not limit or make morality or political or cultural demands on the poor country like the west does.

    MiG-29K (Indian) was produced since 2005, Russian form 2012 but deign / avionics is older.

    Hahahahaha... yeah, right... and the Su-30MKI is all Russian avionics and systems... India never has French or Israeli avionics in their planes... it is all Russia stuff.

    The tooling to make MiG-29KRs was set up for producing aircraft for India, but do you think that means they just made some extra Indian aircraft for Russia, or just dumped some old avionics from land based MiG-29s into the plane?

    Don't you wonder why they had MiG-35s in mockup form shown in India yet they are still not producing them?

    Is that possibly because India and Russia are two different customers and the setups of the two aircraft are not the same for each customer?

    At least you are not suggesting the MiG-29K from the 1980s is different to what we are talking about...

    The last refit of Su-33 is from 2010. in 10 years they will have almost 20 years without any update. BTW did you have any Syrian upgrade info? I have never heard about it.

    They were testing the Gefest & T system added to the Su-33 amongst other new features that they didn't really elaborate on publicly AFAIK.

    great we agreed

    You don't build CVNs for WWIII, just like you don't make Armata tanks or Su-57s for WWIII... you make SLBMs, long range cruise missiles, and ICBMs for WWIII and various doomsday weapons like Poseiden.

    OK now back to earth. Navalized Su-57 surely would be a potent machine. Huuge CVNs would be more potent. But now money talks. First ther ewas about Shtorm 100k tones, then Navy cannot imagine that CVN could be less then 70k. Now Krylov (the only one who placed Su-57k in plaseic ;-) presented 44k model of carrier. That's why it is better to have small cheaper 20-30 fighters CV then none.

    Revealing designs means nothing... they are after sales... to whomever... if China said they wanted 5 Storm class carriers... that is what it is all about.

    You don't actually think the Russian Navy decides what it wants by looking at press releases from companies that make models do you?

    They will decide what they want based on their experience... and so far that suggests that the Kuz is slightly too small.

    They are funding EMALS, they are funding NPPs for very large ships, they have funded the upgrade of the Zvezda shipyard in the far east that can make up to 350K ton ships, and they are also funding STOVL aircraft.

    I very much doubt they will bank on those STOVL aircraft being good enough on their own so they can go super cheap and make a 40K ton ship to carry them... if they really wanted cheap then a modified gas carrier ship would be a fraction of the cost and be half carrier and half arsenal ship.

    They have already realised that bigger ships are better protected and more independent.... they can't afford to have an enormous fleet with huge numbers of all sorts of types of ships, so the carriers they do have will be it... so they might as well be as good as they can make them.

    Yak-141 concept 30 years old , not sure why you want to build old design? 30 years ago there were no avangards or poseidons. The new fighter will use definitely new tech/solutions. Same with performance.

    To be supersonic, it needs a 20 ton plus engine... no big deal... the R79 of the Yak-41 was developed to 22 tons thrust anyway, so that is not the issue... an evolved upgraded NK-32 could have 30 tons thrust... the point is that during a vertical landing... the only point to a STOVL aircraft... you need special heat resistant decking... that means it can only land on carriers or specially equipped ships... stretches of motor way, or half a runway(damaged), or a clearing in a field are not options for this aircraft.... that engine will destroy the ground underneath it and blow dirt and rubbish into the air to directly damage the engine.

    So if it can't land vertically except on a carrier then why not use cable arrested aircraft... any technology you put into a STOVL aircraft to make it better than other aircraft could be put into a conventional aircraft cheaper and easier... conventional aircraft don't need high pressure air blowers in the nose, the wingtips, and the tail for hovering flight... all that extra weight can be eliminated in a STOBAR aircraft.


    Pantsir has 800-900km radius?! affraid affraid affraid if not then fighters will be much better.

    Obviously an expert you... perhaps you need to pay attention to what "Point Defence" means... which point defence fighter has an 800km radius... and WTF use is a point defence fighter that is 800km away from the ships they are supposed to be defending?

    I bet there will be in 20-30 years weapons of global reach available.

    That is the point... if you lose this bet who gives a fuck... the Russian Navy are conservative and are interested in becoming an important part of Russian economic and military growth in the future...


    In US there are plns to use 50-100kW laser which is able to destroy AAD missile.

    Makes sense... their missiles suck.

    wait, did you see any tiltrotor or chopper supersonic?

    Drop them from orbit and they would probably get quite fast before they burned up....

    Then what is the reason Russia stopped procuring of MiG-35 and started developing new VSTOL fighter instead?

    What makes you think they wont be buying MiG-35s?

    Using your logic USA should stick to F-5. Iran is still using ti with new avionics. They need to replace many fighters thet are goring ot be obsolete/by end of lifecycle in couple of years. They need not only new replacement but affordable.

    My logic is fine, you are the one that is suggesting that a MiG-35 with near 5th gen level avionics and systems is going to be much more expensive than a stealthy VSTOL fighter they haven't even designed yet...

    Go your way and even if the damn thing is breathtakingly brilliant, it will be another 10 years of old MiG-29s before the new plane even gets into service.

    Russia can develop rich economy but limiting factor will always be demography. Even with huge immigration policy unlikely till 2050 wont be moremthan 180 mlns.

    Of course having half the landmass of the planet is not enough... more people is obviously their main concern... as populations increase, resources are going to increase in demand... a batch of faulty condoms can increase population if you need it but getting more land is not so easy...
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    Post  PTURBG on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:38 am

    I read from an anti-russian news source that most of the shareholders of the Zvezda shipyard are South Korean and they wont allow the Russians to build any military ships there. Is this true.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:14 pm

    PTURBG wrote:I read from an anti-russian news source that most of the shareholders of the Zvezda shipyard are South Korean and they wont allow the Russians to build any military ships there. Is this true.


    DAT Zvezda? there were 20% of now bankrupt Daewo. Since 2018 yes they bought tech fo rbuilding tankers/LNG tankers form Samusng. And are building 350 ktons dock...but Western and Ukrpisant "anal-systs" anre focusing only on first part lol1 lol1 lol1
    http://www.fes-zvezda.ru/news/

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4_%C2%AB%D0%97%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B0%C2%BB
    after Russian wiki:
    SSC "Star"
    The new shipyard was incorporated in 2009 as a joint venture of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (80% of the shipyard) and Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (20%) and was named "DSME Star" [3] . The new shipyard was intended for construction of a large-capacity tanker fleet for Russian oil and gas companies. However, in 2012 Daewoo leaves the enterprise and the shipyard passes to Rosneft and Gazprombank [4] . In 2015, the company receives the name of the shipbuilding complex "Zvezda" .

    In 2016, the first stage of the new production was launched, designed to build large-capacity vessels and other types of marine equipment for the implementation of hydrocarbon production projects on the continental shelf. There will be the largest dry dock in Russia and full cycle production workshops [5] .

    In 2018, work began on the construction of the second stage of the shipyard [6] . It is expected to complete the construction in 2024 .

    It is expected that vessels with a displacement of 250,000 tons, up to 350 meters in length and 60 meters in width, will descend from the super-shipyards. Up to 10 thousand specialists can work at the shipyards. [7]

    The main client of the shipyard was Rosneft, which concluded an agreement on the placement of all orders for the design and construction of new marine equipment and vessels at the shipyard's facilities. As of mid-2018, the shipyard's portfolio of orders totaled 118 vessels, including Rosneft's orders for 26 vessels, while 4 ships are under construction. [8] [9] In September 2018, the first Aframax tanker was laid . [10] Also in September, an agreement was reached with Samsung Heavy Industries on the transfer of competences in the construction of tankers. [eleven]
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    Post  eehnie on Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:25 pm

    George1 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!

    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.

    A prospective aircraft carrier of the Navy will receive a displacement of not less than 70 thousand tons

    The Navy considers it inexpedient to build lightweight aircraft carriers, the deputy head of the Russian Navy for armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk

    ST.PETERSBURG, April 25. / TASS /. A prospective aircraft carrier of the Russian Navy will have a displacement of at least 70 thousand tons, its technical project is not yet ready. Vice-Admiral Viktor Bursuk told journalists about this from the deputy naval commander of the Russian Navy on armament.
    "The fleet believes that lightweight aircraft carriers should not be built for the Russian Federation from the point of view of the economic" price-quality ratio. "It is preferable to build aircraft carriers with a displacement of about 70 thousand tons, which allow carrying more aircraft on board," he said.

    Bursuk added that "the technical specifications and the design of [such a ship] have not yet been developed, during the creation of the technical design it will be determined what is needed," but "it is already clear that its displacement will be about 70 thousand tons."

    Before the Russian Navy stated that the Russian fleet expected to receive a promising aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030. Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov reported that the contract for the construction of an aircraft carrier could be signed by the end of 2025. The Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov informed that the sketch design of the aircraft carrying ship has already been created and submitted to the Ministry of Defense of Russia.

    At the same time, the Krylov State Research Center, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, developed a new project for a new aircraft carrier, which was also offered for the Russian fleet. Project 23000 was named "Storm". The sketch assumes that the ship will have a displacement of 80-90 thousand tons, it will be equipped with a combined power plant (both an atomic reactor and a gas turbine engine), the air group of the ship must number up to 60 units.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5157561

    unless a contract signed nothing of all these can be regarded reliable sources. Just look at the MiG-29/35 thread. From 2012 till "Russian Air Force will recieve MiG-35 next year"

    You can consider unreliable the public statements of the Russian Navy. It is your mistake.

    And it affects to the quality of the forum, specially to the quality of the section about the Russian Navy, in which is placed this topic.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:32 pm

    Critical thinking in fact improves the quality of this forum, but parroting with long quotes/posts of statements again & again decreases it! Go back to school!
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The RF economy may never grow large enough to justify & afford 2-3 CBGs;

    Not having a blue water navy is what will stop the RFs economy from growing... if the British or the French can afford two carriers then why not Russia?


    A) trade
    Russia is not Nauru, Fiji or UK. Blue water navy is not condition to develop trade. Norther route of far east doesn't require this. Same sailing down Chinese coast. Eurasia is
    45+10 =55  mln 2 with 4,5 billions + Europe with 650 (+100 Russians) ~ 5,250

    Thus Russia without blue water navy has access to 3/4 of worlds population. The main problem there is to have competitive goods and enough population. First can be fairly easy done, the second one is the real problem here. Not high seas navy to me.

    B) CVs
    France cannot afford 2. Has one: 42kts displacement, 30 fighters + 800 Marines



    UK: has built 2.  with  36 +14 helos VSTOL fighters, AWACS  Sea King based and no catobar , with ability to support  amphibious operations (marines onboard)  lol1  lol1  lol1  Kuz size (65ktons). Nowhere near US Ford/Nimitz.  



    In such case I can agree, makes sense  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup





    I doubt the will cross oceans to assist a Russian ship in trouble... and why would they?
    the fun here is that they need nto to sail all over the world. they will b everywhere, you can just call nearest CSG  lol1  lol1  lol1  




    The reality is that there are a lot of countries that just want fair trade and up until recently they really only get that from China... Russia can offer cooperation too, and it does not need to be Russia or China... much of the world needs help... and I don't mean charity, I mean trade that benefits both sides and does not limit or make morality or political or cultural demands on the poor country like the west does.


    I agree with above but moral values and west is an oxymoron  respekt  respekt  respekt




    MiG-29K (Indian) was produced since 2005, Russian form 2012 but deign / avionics is older.
    Hahahahaha... yeah, right... and the Su-30MKI is all Russian avionics and systems... India never has French or Israeli avionics in their planes... it is all Russia stuff.
    +
    At least you are not suggesting the MiG-29K from the 1980s is different to what we are talking about...


    No, not the same. But avionics and element base was from 2000s.  And we talk about status in 2030s.





    The last refit of Su-33 is from 2010. in 10 years they will have almost 20 years without any update. BTW did you have any Syrian upgrade info? I have never heard about it.
    They were testing the Gefest & T system added to the Su-33 amongst other new features that they didn't really elaborate on publicly AFAIK.

    They might add gefests I wont be arguing. But radars and avionics still are form early 2000s. In 2030s will be mildly speaking behind competitors.




    They will decide what they want based on their experience... and so far that suggests that the Kuz is slightly too small.
    They wanted bagruzin and liders which wont happen at all (bagruzin) or much much later (lider) . They dotn have money. SO either they buy what they can or remain with nothing.



    They have already realised that bigger ships are better protected and more independent.... they can't afford to have an enormous fleet with huge numbers of all sorts of types of ships, so the carriers they do have will be it... so they might as well be as good as they can make them.

    thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup  like 42kts de Gaulle?



    Yak-141 concept 30 years old , not sure why you want to build old design? 30 years ago there were no avangards or poseidons. The new fighter will use definitely new tech/solutions. Same with performance.

    To be supersonic, it needs a 20 ton plus engine... no big deal... the R79 of the Yak-41 was developed to 22 tons thrust anyway, so that is not the issue... an evolved upgraded NK-32 could have 30 tons thrust... the point is that during a vertical landing... the only point to a STOVL aircraft... you need special heat resistant decking... that means it can only land on carriers or specially equipped ships... stretches of motor way, or half a runway(damaged), or a clearing in a field are not options for this aircraft.... that engine will destroy the ground underneath it and blow dirt and rubbish into the air to directly damage the engine.

    and?



    So if it can't land vertically except on a carrier then why not use cable arrested aircraft... any technology you put into a STOVL aircraft to make it better than other aircraft could be put into a conventional aircraft cheaper and easier... conventional aircraft don't need high pressure air blowers in the nose, the wingtips, and the tail for hovering flight... all that extra weight can be eliminated in a STOBAR aircraft.

    They considered your option for sure it turned out VSTOL is much better and cost efficient option  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup






    Pantsir has 800-900km radius?! affraid affraid affraid if not then fighters will be much better.

    Obviously an expert you... perhaps you need to pay attention to what "Point Defence" means... which point defence fighter has an 800km radius... and WTF use is a point defence fighter that is 800km away from the ships they are supposed to be defending?


    If you have Moscow point defense you need 300km radius at least. But ok call it group area defense. What doestn change meaning.





    I bet there will be in 20-30 years weapons of global reach available.
    That is the point... if you lose this bet who gives a fuck... the Russian Navy are conservative and are interested in becoming an important part of Russian economic and military growth in the future...

    After you overspend and remaining without money and ships with pillaged economy who gives a fuck? Avangard is not of global reach and doesnet exist
    according ot you?  Anchar is not a new project?   dunno  dunno  dunno








    Then what is the reason Russia stopped procuring of MiG-35 and started developing new VSTOL fighter instead?
    What makes you think they wont be buying MiG-35s?

    After 5 years "almost ready to buy" they bought 6 pieces and kicked off a project to build new fighter. Meh accidental  coincidence  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup



    Using your logic USA should stick to F-5. Iran is still using ti with new avionics. They need to replace many fighters thet are goring ot be obsolete/by end of lifecycle in couple of years. They need not only new replacement but affordable.
    My logic is fine, you are the one that is suggesting that a MiG-35 with near 5th gen level avionics and systems is going to be much more expensive than a stealthy VSTOL fighter they haven't even designed yet...

    No MiG-35 wont be cheaper but less effective and obsolete. Basically new design will take into account drone mode unlike 50 years old MiG-35 frame design.



    Go your way and even if the damn thing is breathtakingly brilliant, it will be another 10 years of old MiG-29s before the new plane even gets into service.

    Precisely! 10 years MiG-29k still will be  in service. At least on Kuz.






    Russia can develop rich economy but limiting factor will always be demography. Even with huge immigration policy unlikely till 2050 wont be more than 180 mlns.
    Of course having half the landmass of the planet is not enough... more people is obviously their main concern... as populations increase, resources are going to increase in demand... a batch of faulty condoms can increase population if you need it but getting more land is not so easy...

    Then why Greenland is not richer than Switzerland ? Or Canada then Japan? Why China is next superpower not  Canada?
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:12 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Blue water navy is not condition to develop trade.

    Blue water navy is the only way to project military power to protect overseas economic interests. The only continent with significant GDP growth forecasted for 21st century is Africa. Russia not having a blue water navy will enable US to use Arabic spring scenarios to overthrow Russian allies and try to weaken Russia.

    Military also makes way for economy. In the times when Kirovs visited Russian naval base in Vietnam, Russians also sold there plenty of Kilo submarines. Trade with Algeria also originates in military links in post colonial era.

    Stability and safety is foremost need of every country and if Russia can guarranty it, partnerships can be born.
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    Post  eehnie on Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:48 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Critical thinking in fact improves the quality of this forum, but parroting with long quotes/posts of statements again & again decreases it! Go back to school!

    Laughing Just to remember your ..... dressed now of "critical thinking"

    eehnie wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    eehnie wrote:..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!

    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.

    A prospective aircraft carrier of the Navy will receive a displacement of not less than 70 thousand tons

    The Navy considers it inexpedient to build lightweight aircraft carriers, the deputy head of the Russian Navy for armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5157561

    This is why you hate the real news from the Russian Navy.

    Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Blue water navy is not condition to develop trade.

    Blue water navy is the only way to project military power to protect overseas economic interests. The only continent with significant GDP growth forecasted for 21st century is Africa. Russia not having a blue water navy will enable US to use Arabic spring scenarios to overthrow Russian allies and try to weaken Russia.
    +++
    Stability and safety is foremost need of every country and if Russia can guarranty it, partnerships can be born.

    A) Blue waters navy.
    Well I cannot agree with that. Yes blue waters helps  but has not  first of all you need to be able to afford such fleet.  Thus unlikely next 15-20 years Russia will build one.
    Second number of ships and size of CVNs wont ever match US fleet.  That's why my bet is on small universal CVNs.  IT si better to have 2-3 small than 0 big.


    I cannot see Arabic spring relation with blue water navy. BTW Russian security company employees are working already in Central African Republic,. Egypt, Algeria, Tanzania or Angola are buying Russian military equipment, SA is part of  BRICS.  Libya is waiting for help.


    B) Africa vs Asia -economy/population

    Africa is cool continent to visit an dfor the future but economical realities look now quite different.

    Google says: World population 2018 7,7 billions of people.  

    Asia:.......4,545,133,094..........59.5 % of world population
    Africa:.....1,287,920,518..........16.9 %


    PPP GDP Asia (actually only China/India/Japan/South Korea/Taiwan=  23+9+ 5,5+2+1.1) trillions $ =..........=40.6.trillions $
    Africa (Nigeria, Egypt, Ethiopia, South Africa,Morocco, Sudan, Angola,Algeria )
    till 67 place in World list. Richest countries in Africa. Rest is >100billions$.......................................................=.4,6.trillions $


    Numbers say: Asia will still be most important worlds' market in next at least 30-50 years, especially for energy and food. Perhaps Africa will grow faster but has almost 4 times less people and by order of magnitude smaller GDP.    Most of Asian countries can be reached by  land, Caspian Sea or along Chinese waters. IMHO demographic factor impacting economical growth si more important than sea routes.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:11 am

    Thus Russia without blue water navy has access to 3/4 of worlds population. The main problem there is to have competitive goods and enough population. First can be fairly easy done, the second one is the real problem here. Not high seas navy to me.
    Exactly. Russia doesn't need to use the Suez, Panama & future Nicaraguan canals with Malacca/Indonesian/Gibraltar straits for most of her current & future seaborne trade; to patrol those remote areas, a few subs &/surface ships + MPA/UAVs will be enough, no need for large blue water navy. The Chinese blue water navy already or by then guarding the "Maritime Silk Road" SLOCs will help,  while the VMF/VKS will guard the Bering Strait, N. Sea & Transpolar Routes.
    eehnie wrote:..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!
    This is why you hate the real news from the Russian Navy.
    Statements of intent/expectation r not real news; I don't hate them, just being objective, unlike ur excellency! So stop the character assassinations- I don't waste my time speculating on what u may hate & why. Since u like tables & projections of status of the RF surface navy, here r some for a reality check:
    http://www.arms-expo.ru/articles/124/100572/

    With such shortages, a CVN will need to be escorted by dozens of small boats & FFGs in place of 4 DDGs &/ CGs + a few more tankers to refuel them. That's why a CVN isn't a priority before enough long range ships r built.
    Not a word about a naval Su-57 member of the family:
    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-08-27/su-57-and-mig-35-land-russian-orders-during-army-2018#


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:37 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:55 am

    China will replace the US as the next SLOCs policeman & the Russian seaborne trade (a fraction of China's) outside of the NSR will be secure under her protection.

    The US has never been Russias or the Soviet Unions SLOCs policeman... and China wont be either.

    Thus Russia without blue water navy has access to 3/4 of worlds population. The main problem there is to have competitive goods and enough population. First can be fairly easy done, the second one is the real problem here. Not high seas navy to me.

    No they don't.

    You can pretty much ignore Europe except for cheap gas sales, politically they will likely block cheap goods from Russia just because it suits them to keep Russia isolated and of course to protect domestic production of the same goods.

    That means 1.5 billion Chinese... but they also generally have locally made alternatives that will also be cheaper.

    Soon 1.4 billion Indians, but Russia will be competing with the west here and you still can't send goods via rail or aircraft to India efficiently... most major international trade is by sea.

    So africa and central and south america are potential growth areas of trade for Russia... for which a blue water Navy would be useful to support...

    France cannot afford 2. Has one: 42kts displacement, 30 fighters + 800 Marines

    France has "territories" around the world that act as unsinkable carriers.. as does the UK.

    Russia really does not have allies or slaves to take advantage of... which is a good thing in my opinion.

    UK: has built 2. with 36 +14 helos VSTOL fighters, AWACS Sea King based and no catobar , with ability to support amphibious operations (marines onboard) lol1 lol1 lol1 Kuz size (65ktons). Nowhere near US Ford/Nimitz.

    Are you retarded?

    Why do you keep bringing up fucking stupid American white elephants... this is nothing to do with them.

    In such case I can agree, makes sense

    As global powers France and the UK are diminishing every year, yet they still bother with aircraft carriers... but you claim they are not necessary...

    the fun here is that they need nto to sail all over the world. they will b everywhere, you can just call nearest CSG

    Are you suggesting dialing local chinese carrier... fried rice and wontons?

    What sort of thing are you thinking... Russian cargo ship being threatened by ships from Uraguay, and so it calls a nearby Chinese ship to help... really?

    China is International Rescue?

    Send Thunderbird one as fast as you can...

    I agree with above but moral values and west is an oxymoron

    Exactly... you can't just hope they will do the right thing... they will do what suits their big companies... which means stopping Chinese and Russian investment... recently May said UK investment in Africa is a positive thing that will help both countries, but Chinese investment in Africa will lead to an unnecessary debt spiral that will destroy the country and just enrich China...

    And that is the secret... by all means listen to western leaders, but reverse it, and you will hear the truth... try it... look at Trumps speech about Iran at the UN recently but replace the word Iran with the word US and he is telling the full truth and being completely honest...

    The west accuses everyone else of doing what they are doing or what they intend to do.

    No, not the same. But avionics and element base was from 2000s. And we talk about status in 2030s.

    No it isn't... MiG have been developing new avionics all the time... the AESA they put in their MiG-35s will not be from 2000s... the DAS is not from the 2000s, the engines are the most recent models, the avionics are their most recent models... and in 2030 they will likely have had 3-4 upgrade cycles since then too... F-18 avionics are not from the 1970s either.

    They might add gefests I wont be arguing. But radars and avionics still are form early 2000s. In 2030s will be mildly speaking behind competitors.

    Of course... there is a rule that what they fit them with now is what they must be fitted with in 15 years time... in fact I believe it is a law.

    Right now they have Su-33s and MiG-29KRs... by 2030 they will likely have put photonic radars and the latest in IIR sensors and other systems in their existing aircraft as upgrades.

    They wanted bagruzin and liders which wont happen at all (bagruzin) or much much later (lider) . They dotn have money. SO either they buy what they can or remain with nothing.

    Of course they have money, they just don't have unlimited money.

    You don't save money by buying a smaller rifle and not putting as many bullets in each magazine...

    They don't need to spend 20 billion and have two new CVNs in 2030... they already have one carrier so one CVN over the next 15 years and another 8-10 years after that means they wont have three carriers (CV + CVNx2) till the mid 2030s at the earliest.

    I would say the squadrons of stealthy STOVL 5th gen fighters (doubled so there are spare aircraft on the ground practising) are going to cost more than the carriers they are operating from.

    and?

    So it is a naval only carrier only aircraft of very limited use.

    It might be worth it if it could do things other planes can't do... but an Su-57 can take off from a 300m strip of motorway at max weight... a VSTOL can destroy a 300m strip of runway and crash...

    They considered your option for sure it turned out VSTOL is much better and cost efficient option

    No. Actually the opposite. They said the Yak-38 could replace the Su-25 and it was tested in Afghanistan and was total shit in the CAS role... what were the US Marines intending to use the AV-8 for? Ohh... that is right... CAS.

    To be fair, the AV-8 is a much better aircraft in every way to the Yak-38, but it is still crap as CAS.

    If you have Moscow point defense you need 300km radius at least. But ok call it group area defense. What doestn change meaning.

    S-400 has a 300km radius with AWACS support...

    After 5 years "almost ready to buy" they bought 6 pieces and kicked off a project to build new fighter. Meh accidental coincidence

    The MiG-35 has nothing to do with this new STOVL fighter... this new design wont even be test flying prototypes for 10 years, and you think it is a MiG-35 replacement?

    I would suspect this new STOVL will be a joint project between Yak and MiG... Yak will be useful for the VL aspect, but they know nothing about designing and making a 5th gen light fighter...

    No MiG-35 wont be cheaper but less effective and obsolete. Basically new design will take into account drone mode unlike 50 years old MiG-35 frame design.

    Look at what you are saying... (note: drone mode is secret code for easy to shoot down).

    The F-35 and Rafale and F-18 were never designed with drones in mind so there wont be any up to date designs in 2030... they can all be obsolete together...

    BTW took this quote from article above posted about orders:

    Also speaking at the briefing, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) president Yuri Slyusar said that judging by their price-performance ratios, the Su-57 and MiG-35 represent the best solution in their classes...

    Yeah.... already obsolete you say...

    Precisely! 10 years MiG-29k still will be in service. At least on Kuz.

    The F-18 and F-35 and Rafale will also still be in service... so why are your panties in such a bunch... when they modify the Su-57 into a carrier based model it will rule supreme... because everything else will be obsolete... and not only that it will be able to operate from any new CVNs Russia might make, but also from the Kuz because it is smaller but more powerful than the Su-33 already able to operate from it.


    Then why Greenland is not richer than Switzerland ? Or Canada then Japan? Why China is next superpower not Canada?

    Because the west wanted cheap labour and invested in production in China... they did the same thing in a lot of countries... including Japan and Malaysia and the Phillipines and South Korea... some of those countries became successful, and others did not.

    If population is so damn important why isn't India an economic or military power house?

    Or how about Indonesia?

    Stability and safety is foremost need of every country and if Russia can guarranty it, partnerships can be born.

    Russia needs to be able to show it has muscle, so that it is seen as a real alternative to the west... this does not mean recklessly bombing countries and overthrowing regimes left right and centre to suit your agenda like the US and colonial europe does... it is about respect for international law and the soverignty of the countries you are dealing with.

    Thus unlikely next 15-20 years Russia will build one.
    Second number of ships and size of CVNs wont ever match US fleet.

    Why the fuck do you keep bringing this up?

    Who gives a flying fuck about the US fleet... the Russian navy can easily match the US fleet... it is called Zircon and Kinzhal... and in a few years time an IRBM design if fired from a land based platform would have a 2,000km range, but because it is air launched and has a scramjet sustainer engine can reach targets 6,000km away at mach 12... and is perfectly legal under the INF treaty because it will be air launched...

    That's why my bet is on small universal CVNs. IT si better to have 2-3 small than 0 big.

    The cost of 3 small carriers will exceed the cost of 2 big ones when you include the cost of the escorts and port support requirements... and you also have to allow the fact that smaller carriers will be less well defended and not able to operate away from Russian waters as long as a larger vessel could.

    We agree these carries are not for Russian waters... what you are saying is that buying three small round town cars will be cheaper than buying a campervan... but I really don't think even that is true because the on road costs of 3 cars compared with a campervan... but more importantly having to take two cars for camping because one wont be good enough... really?

    I cannot see Arabic spring relation with blue water navy. BTW Russian security company employees are working already in Central African Republic,. Egypt, Algeria, Tanzania or Angola are buying Russian military equipment, SA is part of BRICS. Libya is waiting for help.

    If Russia gets contracts and good business relationships with a small African country then the CIA might decide to create unrest and overthrow the government like they have in lots and lots of countries... including the Ukraine...

    A Syria like support intervention from Russia is not too hard, but one in Africa or central or south america where the west could simply get in the queue for the Suez canal and then abandon the ship to block it for a month would stop Russian support options...

    Africa is cool continent to visit an dfor the future but economical realities look now quite different.

    Google says: World population 2018 7,7 billions of people.

    Asia:.......4,545,133,094..........59.5 % of world population
    Africa:.....1,287,920,518..........16.9 %

    Population numbers alone mean nothing... the US market for small arms is much bigger than the Chinese market for small arms for Kalashnikov Concern... using the numbers the way you are using them suggests Russia would be better off trying to sell to China, but common sense suggests America is a much bigger and potentially more profitable market... if it wasn't so anti trade and anti Russian.

    Africa has vastly more growth potential than Asia has, and central and south America also offers opportunities... Russia is in no position to ignore any of these opportunities... but most of the Asian and all of the African and central and south american trade will be via the sea.

    Numbers say: Asia will still be most important worlds' market in next at least 30-50 years, especially for energy and food. Perhaps Africa will grow faster but has almost 4 times less people and by order of magnitude smaller GDP. Most of Asian countries can be reached by land, Caspian Sea or along Chinese waters. IMHO demographic factor impacting economical growth si more important than sea routes.

    Asia is already growing without trade with Russia... Africa and central and south america need trade to grow... and Russia can grow with them.

    Exactly. Russia doesn't need to use the Suez, Panama & future Nicaraguan canals with Malacca/Indonesian/Gibraltar straits for most of her current & future seaborne trade;

    THAT IS THE POINT... their current trade is stunted and hemmed in, which hurts their trade potential and limits their future trade growth... their land neighbours are assholes... look at them... Finland... wants to join NATO, the Baltic states are in NATO and hate Russia, the Ukraine... hates Russia and wants to cut off all trade, Belarus wants to be friendly with the EU but knows it does not meet their high standards (ie does not hate Russia enough)... Georgia... do I need to go on?

    The only friendly borders are former Soviet States that are in the same shit cart Russia is geographically and China... and the term friendly can only be loosely applied to some.

    To make money and grow Russia needs to trade... not reproduce and become a bananastan.

    It is not an accident that aging populations is a symptom of education and healthcare advancement...

    The Chinese blue water navy already or by then guarding the "Maritime Silk Road" SLOCs will help, while the VMF/VKS will guard the Bering Strait, N. Sea & Transpolar Routes.

    That is important, but Russias future is more than just being the footpath between China and Europe.

    Not a word about a naval Su-57 member of the family

    The Su-57 is not cheap, but any made for the next 10 years wont be carrier aircraft.

    When they have laid down the carrier they will navalise some Su-57s and test them on the Kuznetsov and land based carrier simulators and then probably decide whether to bother making navalised Su-57s or just use navalised MiG-35s, or whatever comes of the light 5th gen fighter... VL or not.



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    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:25 am

    I read from an anti-russian news source that most of the shareholders of the Zvezda shipyard are South Korean and they wont allow the Russians to build any military ships there. Is this true.
    I did see a recent comment I think on Balancer suggesting the cranes & other shipbuilding gear is supplied with a non-military clause.
    Still, pumping out large gas carriers & oil/gas rigs etc should help build experience with large/rapid ship building.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:12 am

    hoom wrote:
    I read from an anti-russian news source that most of the shareholders of the Zvezda shipyard are South Korean and they wont allow the Russians to build any military ships there. Is this true.
    I did see a recent comment I think on Balancer suggesting the cranes & other shipbuilding gear is supplied with a non-military clause.
    Still, pumping out large gas carriers & oil/gas rigs etc should help build experience with large/rapid ship building.

    Concerning other countries Cvs, i must remind that new RN Cvs still sail without aircraft, and it is unknown when the F-35, when come aboard, will become fully operational. French CDG is very interesting, but she is a kind of "unlucky ship". Every now and then something brokes down aboard.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:24 am

    Light carrier from Krylov.

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    Post  kumbor on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:02 pm

    Hole wrote:Light carrier from Krylov.

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    This "light carrier" reminds me of soviet "light" battleship projects preceding and just after WWII - displacement 50.000 tons!? Very light. The size of Kuz and nuclear powered.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:23 pm

    The lift are only for fighter size plane. You can't use them for awacs. It's a mistake they should correct.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:34 pm

    The size of Kuz and nuclear powered.
    The deck is bigger than K, approaching Nimitz size but supposedly on 44k ton.
    Whether thats actually a realistic plan is the question.

    As suggested elsewhere we will know they're serious about it when the concept gets forwarded to one of the actual ship design groups with a proper design contract.

    Edit: ooh wow its not just a tunnel hull like some of the recent frigates, that stern is actually catamaran http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/september-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6509-russia-s-krylov-light-aircraft-carrier-project-features-semi-catamaran-hull-design.html
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 3 Russias_Krylov_Light_Aircraft_Carrier_Project_Features_Semi-Catamaran_Hull_Design_3
    See the middle of the stern is actually above the waterline.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:43 pm

    hoom wrote:
    The size of Kuz and nuclear powered.
    The deck is bigger than K, approaching Nimitz size but supposedly on 44k ton.
    Whether thats actually a realistic plan is the question.

    As suggested elsewhere we will know they're serious about it when the concept gets forwarded to one of the actual ship design groups with a proper design contract.

    I can only say again that displacement of such a ship as 44K ton is underestimated!
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:22 pm

    Edit: ooh wow its not just a tunnel hull like some of the recent frigates, that stern is actually catamaran http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/september-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6509-russia-s-krylov-light-aircraft-carrier-project-features-semi-catamaran-hull-design.html

    Nice !!

    It makes it better and more realistic. They really should order 2 of those with some improvements like longer take off positions, nuclear power taken from other projecr like borei, place for 1 or 2 awacs and some uksk.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:17 pm

    It would carry 4 AWACS according to the data given on the website.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:36 pm

    Hole wrote:It would carry 4 AWACS according to the data given on the website.

    And how do you send them in the hangar ? The lifts are small.

    The website isn't a reliable source unless they have the picture of the data sheet from krylov exposition that probably was in front iof the maket.

    The pictures are really bad btw.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:58 pm

    I've posted the brochure previously...

    Edit: back on pg 5 at the end of August http://www.russiadefence.net/t7631p100-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-3#232905 heck you even made the next post
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 3 9207960_original

    Edit2: though I've presumed the 4* AEW referenced to be Ka-31s
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:19 pm

    The US has never been Russias or the Soviet Unions SLOCs policeman... and China wont be either.
    Yes, they were Western SLOCs policeman.
    Soon 1.4 billion Indians, but Russia will be competing with the west here and you still can't send goods via rail or aircraft to India efficiently... most major international trade is by sea. So africa and central and south america are potential growth areas of trade for Russia...
    North-South rail & sea corridor via Pakistan, Iran, Azerbaijan, the Caspian & Arabian Seas can handle trade with India & E. Africa. China will have railroads in Tibet & Yunnan very close to India & connecting to Indochina, so the W.Siberia & the RFE can get goods directly via them as well.
    What exactly can they buy in L. America in bulk that they can't buy in Asia & Africa? Coffee, cacao, tea, pineapples, bananas, coconuts, palm oil, rice, rubber, & the like r all produced South of the Russian border, no need to cross the Atlantic or Pacific. Unless they'll have a large Russian overseas colony or dependency, I don't see a need for vital transoceanic SLOCs to be protected. 
    ..Russia's future is more than just being the footpath between China and Europe.
    I hope so! But it's an uphill battle. An oligarchy isn't easy to dislodge!
    The Su-57 is not cheap, but any made for the next 10 years wont be carrier aircraft.
    And probably never. By then, the geopolitical situation will be different & new naval CTOL a/c may be developed, if STOVL isn't good enough.
    its not just a tunnel hull like some of the recent frigates, that stern is actually catamaran
    No, it's a well deck.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:34 pm

    hoom wrote:I've posted the brochure previously...

    Edit: back on pg 5 at the end of August http://www.russiadefence.net/t7631p100-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-3#232905 heck you even made the next post
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3 - Page 3 9207960_original

    Edit2: though I've presumed the 4* AEW referenced to be Ka-31s

    I didn't remember of the brochure. Anyway a yak 44 size awacs can't use those lifts. It is probably ka 31.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:59 pm

    No, it's a well deck.
    the Krylov guy is directly quoted saying its a catamaran stern
    The project is distinguished by the underwater part of a semi-catamaran form. Catamaran actually means two hulls united by a platform. It has a wide deck which is important for an aircraft carrier. The design adds flight deck space on which the number of aircraft depends. As a result, a medium-displacement ship can carry a full-fledged air wing

    If it was a well-deck there would be some mention of a well-deck in some of the coverage but there is none.

    The whole point of this design is to maximise the flight-deck & air-wing, sacrificing nearly every other aspect to enable it.

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