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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #3

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:01 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Deck fighters/ground attack planes can be land based like the A-4/-6/-7/-8s & F-4/-14/-18s, but the land based F-16/-15/-22s can't be CVN based, as their navalization isn't worth the trouble.
    The same can be said about the SU-57, as others pointed out. It has ~the same J-20 (which isn't being navalized) & F-111 dimensions

    If ~ the same sized F-111 was not suitable for the USN CV/Ns, then how the Su-57 could be suitable for a 70K ton CVN? And how many could fit on a 100K ton CVN & to leave enough room for other a/c? Producing just a few of them isn't worth it.
    First let me say for the umpteenth time that I don't know whether Su-57 can or will be modified for carrier operations. This is simply speculation about theoretical possibilities for RuN, not some kind of assertion that it WILL be done. But for the sake of being factually correct, have to disagree on what you state above. I agree that an aircraft that has not been designed for carrier operation will be more difficult or even practically impossible to adapt. Loads to airframe and landing gear, wing folding, angle of landing approach, min. speed come to mind as significant design requirements that differ from CTOL related ones. But when you make your case for the Su-57, you make some IMO incorrect assumptions:

    > The Su-27, with similar overall design to the Su-57 and originally designed as CTOL but afterwards adapted successfully for STOBAR operations voids your first argument
    > Su-57 is notably smaller than the F-111, which besides was planned to be a carrier aircraft
    > If Su-33 is carried on the Kuznetsov (64k max displacement), how would it be a problem to carry a smaller plane (Su-57) on a bigger ship of 70k?
    > How many could be carried on a 100k CVN? F-14s had roughly the same size than Su-57 (both heavy fighters, F-14 being slightly heavier even when 4G was generally lighter) so the later would be (if equipped with a folding wing) roughly equally suitable in terms of footprint and on-board numbers.
    > Size may be one of the elements that limit navalization, but is far from being the only one as you suggest. J-20 not being navalized proves nothing in regards of Su-57. Looking at the J-20 it seems to me its landing gear is not apt (too short and too weak). Not sure about the low speed performance too. J-31 (already with double front tire and robust main gear) makes more sense as naval fighter IMHO.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:25 am

    Well, there is a reason they r not restarting production of SU-33s; if they were so good, why not do that instead of betting on MiG-29Ks?
    Su-57 is notably smaller than the F-111, which besides was planned to be a carrier aircraft
    It's ~3 tons lighter but their dimensions r very close, pl. see relevant links.
    The F-111 was for CV/Ns but it didn't work as well as the F-14.
    On a 70K ton CVN, there'll be even less space.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:42 am

    I didnt post it lol1 lol1 lol1 240 vs 750 is ekhm not enough even if they will increase by 100% is still will be a half f needed deck fighters.

    At the top of this page you clearly posted it as a quote of what he said and then in your calculations you ignored what he said...

    Ture that's why Kuz will slowly die with obsolete MiG-29k and Su-33 unless new light fighter will be build. And new fighter will be build

    Why?

    If Russia sends a carrier to support Russian intervention in South Africa... exactly why will the Su-33 and MiG-29KR be obsolete?

    Do you think F-35s will try to shoot down Russian jets?

    Assuming Russia has been asked to assist in South Africa... as a country that can offer military assistance, but without all the strings and bullshit attached like with requests to the US or UK, where they get all the contracts to rebuild etc...

    If Venezuela asks for a carrier group to visit because they feel threatened by the US, it will be the presence of the ships and aircraft that are of value... don't think of the aircraft on a carrier as being a one on one comparison with other fighters... what they are there fore is to extend the sight and reach of the ships... they are not there to dogfight their way through NATO...

    F-35 result of JSF result of JAST started in 1993... 25 years to date and still in need of debugging...

    Confusing the word debugging with restarting... the future seems to be F-35 avionics and systems in the F-22 air frame... so VSTOL is probably out the window...

    I know this fan art. Should it be proof of something?

    It shows how powerful the F-35 is... it is already carrying missiles better than Russian missiles.... it is carrying an Indian missile... Su-57 was too expensive for India, so why don't they try an F-35 instead...

    If the USN has 11 CVNs, 2 will be in maintenance/refit/refueling at any given time, so they need squadrons only for 9 CVNs. Even then, not all of them r at sea at the same time, so the # of squadrons could be less. The USMC planes may also fill in for any fighter shortage.

    Actually the cost of deployment means most of their 11 carrier groups are not deployed most of the time...

    According to this:

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/where.htm

    One is "forward deployed" and three more are deployed and the rest are not in use... five in maintainence, and one in post deployment and one in pre deployment workup...

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:52 am

    Well, there is a reason they r not restarting production of SU-33s; if they were so good, why not do that instead of betting on MiG-29Ks?

    Simply money.

    It costs money to setup production of any aircraft, and the cost of setting up production for the Su-33 to make two or three dozen would make each aircraft quite expensive for what it was.

    The MiG-29KR was already in production for India, so the set up costs were zero, so adding their order for MiGs worked out much quicker and cheaper and easier, plus the MiG-29KR is a fully multirole aircraft, unlike the Su-33, which is just an Su-27 with naval alterations... ie a fighter interceptor with no ground attack capability except dumb bombs and unguided rockets.

    The Su-33KUB was a dramatic improvement with extensive multirole capabilities, but was not ordered either.

    It's ~3 tons lighter but their dimensions r very close, pl. see relevant links.
    The F-111 was for CV/Ns but it didn't work as well as the F-14.
    On a 70K ton CVN, there'll be even less space.

    What are you talking about?

    Full load weight of Su-57 is less than 30 tons, so it is lighter than an Su-33 but with much more powerful engines and no external weapon drag...

    The F-111 is more like 45 tons with rather less engine power...

    The Su-57 is actually lighter than an F-14 carrier based fighter and has a similar weight to an F-18.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:58 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:for LFMS they are Razz Razz Razz

    For Eehnie too.

    Like alwyas you are far of the reality.

    My favourite option is to see the main variant of the Su-57 able of using the future Russian aircraft carrier.

    Naval variant of the Su-57 would be a second option for me. Valid but a little less interesting.

    You and others can bury the real news with tons of non-sense, but this will not change the reality, it only makes the topic a non-sense.

    And while you do it, the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.

    I remember seeing plastic models from the 1970s that were supposed to represent the carriers to come after the Kiev class... yes, that makes the plastic models Kuznetsov models... and what sort of planes did those plastic models have on them?

    It wasn't MiG-29s or Su-27s... it was MiG-23s... because the model is about the carrier and not the plane...

    If it is not a larger carrier with decent aircraft then why even bother with carriers... go with the best or expect to lose... and if you expect to lose why bother spending any money at all on some piece of crap that wont do the job?

    Su-57 navalised plus 70K plus ton carrier or some Star Trek UAV/UCAV launcher vessel/container ship.

    Edit: I should point out those plastic models of carriers from the 1970s were not seen until the 1990s...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:55 am

    It costs money to setup production of any aircraft, and the cost of setting up production for the Su-33 to make two or three dozen would make each aircraft quite expensive for what it was.
    The MiG-29KR was already in production for India, so the set up costs were zero, so adding their order for MiGs worked out much quicker and cheaper and easier, plus the MiG-29KR is a fully multirole aircraft, unlike the Su-33, which is just an Su-27 with naval alterations... ie a fighter interceptor with no ground attack capability except dumb bombs and unguided rockets.
    Don't they still produce the SU-30s for India, not to mention the SU-34/-35s for themselves & China? And why couldn't the bigger & longer range SU-33s be upgraded to multi-role to match the SU-30?
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    Post  kumbor on Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:29 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    BTW Laser and Microwve will never matrialise?
    I said exactly the opposite actually... Suspect


    LMFS wrote:I mean, apart from vague references to fancy energy weapons, lasers, smart skins and high-tech engines... what? When? How many? How expensive? Where are the demonstrators to all those features? Where are even the requirements

    +++


    Earlier, the chief of the Air and Space Forces of Russia, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev, announced the possibility of using laser weapons on the MiG-35 aircraft
    LMFS wrote: Laser GUIDED weapons...

    +++

    Coming in 2021: A laser weapon for fighter jets
    LMFS wrote:Yes yes yes... Sleep



    ohh rlyyy?  Imust have misunderstood you  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

    BTW guided ?   lol1  lol1  lol1


    Previously, the MiG-35 will use laser weapons, said the president of the United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slyusar . According to him, on the plane from six to eight the number of suspension points has been increased, which will make it possible to use, among other things, prospective weapons, including laser weapons.
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201703071309-x2lj.htm

    It is difficult to assume that russian jets will soon acquire laser weapons. Laser (powered) weapons need huge amount of energy. It`s impossible to put such an energy source within the airframe of either MiG or SU. Laser weapons will be still only land based
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:13 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    By now it is not even close to being operational. It will come probably, but we are still far from that. Countermeasures will be developed and doctrine will need to be adapted. It is still unclear if these weapons will make a change in the kind of platforms used for air combat, maybe in the future fighters are substituted for transport planes with huge DEW and stocks of drones and/or missiles, who knows. So if traditional fighters are still applicable, these systems could be implemented on a Su-57. If not, the F/A-XX would be obsolete too, if ever developed at all.


    For lasers this is only matter of size of energy generator/storage. You need 100kW impulse to destroy any missile and perhaps also fighter. Andyes with money already invested they will be. If in mid 2020s or early 2030s doesn't matter.  With microvawe weapons perhaps will be not installed for manned fighters as there are problems with pilot safety AFAIK.



    BTW guided ?   lol1  lol1  lol1
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201703071309-x2lj.htm
    Yes, a journo understanding things with his arse is a proof of the MiG-35 going to be equipped with blasters at any moment now lol1 lol1 lol1
    Do you want to bet on that happening?


    This no journo. I have listened interviews. "all perspective kinds of weapons including laser one" . I bet that this is happening now. Within 5-10 years will be available for most of fighters. . Not necessarily for MiG-35 though  as program is at best hibernated if not dead.  



    BTW This was that 1 guy who was saying this the other one was Yuri Slusar gen manager of OAK:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE,_%D0%98%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    Ilya S. Tarasenko was born on March 23, 1980 in Moscow. In 2002 he graduated from the Moscow Aviation Institute , after which he worked in the OKB im. PO Sukhoi . In 2005, he became director of the consolidated directorate of OAO Sukhoi Company. In 2009, he moved to RSK MiG , where he consistently holds the posts of Director of the Directorate for Program Coordination, Director for Program Coordination, Deputy Director General for Program Coordination and Procurement, and First Deputy Director General. In July 2014, IS Tarasenko heads the JSC "Civil Aircraft Sukhoi . " Since September 2016 he is the General Director of JSC "RAC" MiG






    LMFS wrote:
    WTF? Are you kidding me? When did I say that? On the contrary, I have said that those models are proposals done without any link to MoD and therefore are proof of exactly NOTHING.


    Oh sorry tne I misunderstood I thought you were saying about having navalized Su-57 as deck fighters russia russia russia  OK  the my cute CGI  should be then contemplated as artist impressions about new gen lighth fighters I love you I love you I love you
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:28 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    It is difficult to assume that russian jets will soon acquire laser weapons. Laser (powered) weapons need huge amount of energy. It`s impossible to put such an energy source within the airframe of either MiG or SU. Laser weapons will be still only land based

    100kW impulse is all you need 50 should be ok for drones or dazzling. What is the power of new fighter engine? Without speed of exhaust gases it would be hard to calculate but turboprop for Tu95 has 11,000kW each.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:34 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Deck fighters/ground attack planes can be land based like the A-4/-6/-7/-8s & F-4/-14/-18s, but the land based F-16/-15/-22s can't be CVN based, as their navalization isn't worth the trouble.
    The same can be said about the SU-57, as others pointed out. It has ~the same J-20 (which isn't being navalized) & F-111 dimensions:
    +++

    If ~ the same sized F-111 was not suitable for the USN CV/Ns, then how the Su-57 could be suitable for a 70K ton CVN? And how many could fit on a 100K ton CVN & to leave enough room for other a/c? Producing just a few of them isn't worth it.

    I second that.  Navalization for 1-2 CVNs especially if they can take 24 each make it not worth effort.




    ..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!
    Well If Russia can build enough of large carrier ti would be cool. But realities are slightly different atm.  Now Russia's  doctrine is based on sea/area denial  not control what let Russian deal with internal economy & science development and spending much less for deference.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Ture that's why Kuz will slowly die with obsolete MiG-29k and Su-33 unless new light fighter will be build. And new fighter will be build

    Why?
    If Russia sends a carrier to support Russian intervention in South Africa... exactly why will the Su-33 and MiG-29KR be obsolete?

    This was statement by depury of MoD  and now deputy PM for MiC? Perhaps because they were not updated for years and their service life will also be abut to end?


    Do you think F-35s will try to shoot down Russian jets?

    The point is I dotn think thy will. Technically can shoot any obsolete fighter but this would mean IIIWWW.


    If Venezuela asks for a carrier group to visit because they feel threatened by the US, it will be the presence of the ships and aircraft that are of value... don't think of the aircraft on a carrier as being a one on one comparison with other fighters... what they are there fore is to extend the sight and reach of the ships... they are not there to dogfight their way through NATO...

    cheers  cheers  cheers  finally you agreed with me  cheers  cheers  cheers presence here is a key , for the reat you got Boreys/Avangards/Poseidons and Tu-160/Tu22M



    F-35 result of JSF result of JAST started in 1993... 25 years to date and still in need of debugging...

    Confusing the word debugging with restarting... the future seems to be F-35 avionics and systems in the F-22 air frame... so VSTOL is probably out the window...

    unlikely  lol1  lol1  lol1  and if so Russia will bethe only one with VSTOL  russia  russia  russia  




    One is "forward deployed" and three more are deployed and the rest are not in use... five in maintainence, and one in post deployment and one in pre deployment workup...

    Then 1 Kuz is mostly not deloyed ...2 still 0,5 "forward deployment"
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:49 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:For lasers this is only matter of size of energy generator/storage. You need 100kW impulse to destroy any missile and perhaps also fighter. Andyes with money already invested they will be. If in mid 2020s or early 2030s doesn't matter.  With microvawe weapons perhaps will be not installed for manned fighters as there are problems with pilot safety AFAIK.
    Thanks for apologizing for quoting me wrongly What a Face
    Glad to know that DEW are a trivial issue, that is fantastic news lol1

    This no journo. I have listened interviews. "all perspective kinds of weapons including laser one" . I bet that this is happening now. Within 5-10 years will be available for most of fighters. . Not necessarily for MiG-35 though  as program is at best hibernated if not dead.  

    BTW This was that 1 guy who was saying this the other one was Yuri Slusar gen manager of OAK:
    I know who Tarasenko is, the guy saying MiG-41 will de ready for series in 2025... no comments
    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.

    Oh sorry tne I misunderstood I thought you were saying about having navalized Su-57 as deck fighters russia russia russia  OK  the my cute CGI  should be then contemplated as artist impressions about new gen lighth fighters I love you I love you I love you
    Thanks again for apologizing, for putting words in my mouth I have not said respekt
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:50 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    Glad to know that DEW are a trivial issue, that is fantastic news lol1

    If you think so nice  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup but this is not what I said Razz Razz Razz  Laser gun 50kW was already tested this summer by F-15.  Perhaps it wont be by 2021 but why not couple years later?


    This no journo. I have listened interviews. "all perspective kinds of weapons including laser one"
    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.

    you had the source - an interview on TV Zvezda link provided. He said "all perspective kinds of weapons,  laser included". He never stated laser guided ammo though.

    KRET is also working on same stuff.
    https://tass.ru/interviews/4441543



    Oh sorry tne I misunderstood I thought you were saying about having navalized Su-57 as deck fighters russia russia russia  OK  the my cute CGI  should be then contemplated as artist impressions about new gen lighth fighters I love you I love you I love you
    Thanks again for apologizing, for putting words in my mouth I have not said respekt

    Then I am happy we agree VSOL programme is on , su57 is not thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:08 pm

    Could this be the Tiltrotor/VSTOL plane they've been talking about? http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/09/capturas-del-video-del-drone-fregat-de.html
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:54 pm

    hoom wrote:Could this be the Tiltrotor/VSTOL plane they've been talking about?

    This looks like UAV Fregat to me. Yup there is a version for deck aviation but for reconnaissance/SAR . If you mean the onefor VDV is is very unlikely it is for them.


    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/fregat-bla/
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    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:03 pm

    Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:41 pm

    hoom wrote:Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.

    What you see on pictures is a proof of concept UAV. Kronhstad wants to build deck version (8tons weight class) by 2025 -if Navy is interested. Perhaps it was artist impression about deck version. Perhaps payload was not large 2tons but range 3000km and ceilint 8000m is nob bad for many functions od deck aviation (SAR, ASW, AWACS)
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:30 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!

    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.

    A prospective aircraft carrier of the Navy will receive a displacement of not less than 70 thousand tons

    The Navy considers it inexpedient to build lightweight aircraft carriers, the deputy head of the Russian Navy for armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk

    ST.PETERSBURG, April 25. / TASS /. A prospective aircraft carrier of the Russian Navy will have a displacement of at least 70 thousand tons, its technical project is not yet ready. Vice-Admiral Viktor Bursuk told journalists about this from the deputy naval commander of the Russian Navy on armament.
    "The fleet believes that lightweight aircraft carriers should not be built for the Russian Federation from the point of view of the economic" price-quality ratio. "It is preferable to build aircraft carriers with a displacement of about 70 thousand tons, which allow carrying more aircraft on board," he said.

    Bursuk added that "the technical specifications and the design of [such a ship] have not yet been developed, during the creation of the technical design it will be determined what is needed," but "it is already clear that its displacement will be about 70 thousand tons."

    Before the Russian Navy stated that the Russian fleet expected to receive a promising aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030. Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov reported that the contract for the construction of an aircraft carrier could be signed by the end of 2025. The Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov informed that the sketch design of the aircraft carrying ship has already been created and submitted to the Ministry of Defense of Russia.

    At the same time, the Krylov State Research Center, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, developed a new project for a new aircraft carrier, which was also offered for the Russian fleet. Project 23000 was named "Storm". The sketch assumes that the ship will have a displacement of 80-90 thousand tons, it will be equipped with a combined power plant (both an atomic reactor and a gas turbine engine), the air group of the ship must number up to 60 units.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5157561
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    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:37 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..the future Russian aircraft carrier of 70000+ tons with Su-57 continues going forward.
    Only in ur dreams!

    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.

    A prospective aircraft carrier of the Navy will receive a displacement of not less than 70 thousand tons

    The Navy considers it inexpedient to build lightweight aircraft carriers, the deputy head of the Russian Navy for armament, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk

    ST.PETERSBURG, April 25. / TASS /. A prospective aircraft carrier of the Russian Navy will have a displacement of at least 70 thousand tons, its technical project is not yet ready. Vice-Admiral Viktor Bursuk told journalists about this from the deputy naval commander of the Russian Navy on armament.
    "The fleet believes that lightweight aircraft carriers should not be built for the Russian Federation from the point of view of the economic" price-quality ratio. "It is preferable to build aircraft carriers with a displacement of about 70 thousand tons, which allow carrying more aircraft on board," he said.

    Bursuk added that "the technical specifications and the design of [such a ship] have not yet been developed, during the creation of the technical design it will be determined what is needed," but "it is already clear that its displacement will be about 70 thousand tons."

    Before the Russian Navy stated that the Russian fleet expected to receive a promising aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030. Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov reported that the contract for the construction of an aircraft carrier could be signed by the end of 2025. The Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov informed that the sketch design of the aircraft carrying ship has already been created and submitted to the Ministry of Defense of Russia.

    At the same time, the Krylov State Research Center, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, developed a new project for a new aircraft carrier, which was also offered for the Russian fleet. Project 23000 was named "Storm". The sketch assumes that the ship will have a displacement of 80-90 thousand tons, it will be equipped with a combined power plant (both an atomic reactor and a gas turbine engine), the air group of the ship must number up to 60 units.

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5157561

    unless a contract signed nothing of all these can be regarded reliable sources. Just look at the MiG-29/35 thread. From 2012 till "Russian Air Force will recieve MiG-35 next year"
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:06 am

    George1 wrote:
    unless a contract signed nothing of all these can be regarded reliable sources. Just look at the MiG-29/35 thread. From 2012 till "Russian Air Force will recieve MiG-35 next year"

    Technically if no year is mentioned the date logically statement is all the time true lol1 lol1 lol1 Me thinks MiG-35 is good fighter but there's no need to invest init now since new gen fighters will be much better in every respect and money is wiser to spend there.

    The other question is what do they plan as CV role... Kuz till 2040s and rest? Shall we know before retirement? Would be bed news if non-modified LHD Priboy (24ktons) unless it iwll be lik e Juan Carlos I LHD. This one looks like can do the job with 30ktons.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:22 am

    Guys, pl. check spellings before posting.
    In the public statements of the Russian Navy.
    Earlier, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov reported that the contract for the construction of an aircraft carrier could be signed by the end of 2025[!].
    U can't put "could be" in the bank! They just print what they want to have, & the naval Su-57 isn't there at all! Pl. wake me up on January 1st, 2026!
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:45 am

    This was statement by depury of MoD and now deputy PM for MiC? Perhaps because they were not updated for years and their service life will also be abut to end?

    Please... stop bullshitting... the MiG-29KRs are practically new aircraft that were made not long ago and the purpose for sending the Kuznetsov to Syria was to test the new upgrades on both types... Su-33 and MiG-29KR.

    The point is I dotn think thy will. Technically can shoot any obsolete fighter but this would mean IIIWWW.

    And that is the point... when Russian carrier aircraft are shooting at F-35s then carrier aircraft will not be significant on either side.

    cheers cheers cheers finally you agreed with me cheers cheers cheers presence here is a key , for the reat you got Boreys/Avangards/Poseidons and Tu-160/Tu22M

    The problem is that US carriers are for invasions and sabre rattling, Russian carriers are to defend Russian surface vessels outside of Russian land based aircraft range... which means they will more likely be used regularly in the air intercept and CAP role... for which naval Su-57s are vastly more useful than some dinky little short range slow Yak-41 development.

    Russian ships will have plenty of short range close in point defence weapons so there is no need for a short range point defence aircraft...

    Then 1 Kuz is mostly not deloyed ...2 still 0,5 "forward deployment"

    If the Soviets had matched the USN in carriers then all of those vessels would be not deployed and the cost would have bankrupted the Russians even more.

    The fact is that the only value of the Kuz is experience, and will be for the next 10-15 years.

    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.

    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.

    My understanding of the talk of laser "weapons" on fighters regards an increase in power of DIRCMS so that instead of just dazzling an IR or EO sensor, that instead it actually damages the light sensitive elements and destroys the seekers... which would also have a rather negative effect on a pilot if directed at his visor too of course...


    Then I am happy we agree VSOL programme is on , su57 is not

    Su-57 is definitely on... the question is if they will make a naval version or not.

    Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.

    Clearly subsonic...

    Me thinks MiG-35 is good fighter but there's no need to invest init now since new gen fighters will be much better in every respect and money is wiser to spend there.

    Using that logic they will never put a new plane into service... because by the time it is ready then new technology means a brand new design that has not been designed yet could be much better so scrap it too...

    The MiG-35 will be affordable enough to get into service in decent numbers, so it makes sense to make them as a useful base fighter, and then decide if new stealth aircraft could be made that are actually stealthy or if new radar designs render them expensive wastes of time so better shaped aircraft can be used instead.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:20 am

    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.
    The RF economy may never grow large enough to justify & afford 2-3 CBGs; China will replace the US as the next SLOCs policeman & the Russian seaborne trade (a fraction of China's) outside of the NSR will be secure under her protection.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:50 am

    GarryB wrote:Please... stop bullshitting... the MiG-29KRs are practically new aircraft that were made not long ago and the purpose for sending the Kuznetsov to Syria was to test the new upgrades on both types... Su-33 and MiG-29KR.

    MiG-29K (Indian) was produced since 2005, Russian form 2012 but deign / avionics is older. The last refit of Su-33 is from 2010. in 10 years they will have almost 20 years without any update. BTW did you have any Syrian upgrade info? I have never heard about it.




    The point is I dotn think thy will. Technically can shoot any obsolete fighter but this would mean IIIWWW.
    And that is the point... when Russian carrier aircraft are shooting at F-35s then carrier aircraft will not be significant on either side.

    great we agreed cheers cheers cheers




    cheers  cheers  cheers  finally you agreed with me  cheers  cheers  cheers presence here is a key , for the reat you got Boreys/Avangards/Poseidons and Tu-160/Tu22M
    The problem is that US carriers are for invasions and sabre rattling, Russian carriers are to defend Russian surface vessels outside of  Russian land based aircraft range... which means they will more likely be used regularly in the air intercept and CAP role... for which naval Su-57s are vastly more useful than some dinky little short range slow Yak-41 development.
    [/quote]

    OK now back to earth. Navalized Su-57 surely would be a potent machine. Huuge CVNs would be more potent. But now money talks. First ther ewas about Shtorm 100k tones, then Navy cannot imagine that CVN could be less then 70k. Now Krylov (the only one who placed Su-57k in plaseic ;-) presented 44k model of carrier. That's why it is better to have small cheaper 20-30 fighters CV then none.

    Yak-141 concept 30 years old , not sure why you want to build old design? 30 years ago there were no avangards or poseidons. The new fighter will use definitely new tech/solutions. Same with performance.



    Russian ships will have plenty of short range close in point defense weapons so there is no need for a short range point defence aircraft...


    Pantsir has 800-900km radius?! affraid affraid affraid if not then fighters will be much better.




    Then 1 Kuz is mostly not deloyed ...2 still 0,5 "forward deployment"
    If the Soviets had matched the USN in carriers then all of those vessels would be not deployed and the cost would have bankrupted the Russians even more.
    The fact is that the only value of the Kuz is experience, and will be for the next 10-15 years.
    [/quote]

    good we agree thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.

    Russia will never control seas. You dont invest billions in fleet to trade with Cabo Verde. EU, China/India/Iran +SE Asia/large art of Africa can all be reached without or with minimal usage of high seas. And this market is more than enough to develop economy. If Russian military presence with small CV wont help then 1 very expensive carrier will make no difference either. I bet there will be in 20-30 years weapons of global reach available.





    BTW how do you know they were not referring to laser guided bombs? There were comments in this regard, sadly don't have the source at hand.
    My understanding of the talk of laser "weapons" on fighters regards an increase in power of DIRCMS so that instead of just dazzling an IR or EO sensor, that instead it actually damages the light sensitive elements and destroys the seekers... which would also have a rather negative effect on a pilot if directed at his visor too of course...

    In US there are plns to use 50-100kW laser which is able to destroy AAD missile. So far I have read that Russians are focusing about burning all sensors/electronics. Using either lasers or microwaves.





    Then I am happy we agree VSOL programme is on , su57 is not
    Su-57 is definitely on... the question is if they will make a naval version or not.

    My bad I meant 57k.




    Yes its the Fregat.
    Point is its a not exactly small VSTOL tiltrotor being depicted used on a LHD type ship.
    Clearly subsonic...

    wait, did you see any tiltrotor or chopper supersonic? affraid affraid affraid



    Me thinks MiG-35 is good fighter but there's no need to invest init now since new gen fighters will be much better in every respect and money is wiser to spend there.
    Using that logic they will never put a new plane into service... because by the time it is ready then new technology means a brand new design that has not been designed yet could be much better so scrap it too...

    The MiG-35 will be affordable enough to get into service in decent numbers, so it makes sense to make them as a useful base fighter, and then decide if new stealth aircraft could be made that are actually stealthy or if new radar designs render them expensive wastes of time so better shaped aircraft can be used instead.
    [/quote]

    Then what is the reason Russia stopped procuring of MiG-35 and started developing new VSTOL fighter instead?

    Using your logic USA should stick to F-5. Iran is still using ti with new avionics. They need to replace many fighters thet are goring ot be obsolete/by end of lifecycle in couple of years. They need not only new replacement but affordable.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:53 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    In 10-15 years however, Russian foreign trade relations will have expanded to the point where she will find naval access to the world is financially necessary for them to grow... most trade moves by sea, so being able to control the sea, or at least allow your trade to move by sea anywhere you want it to is critical.
    The RF economy may never grow large enough to justify & afford 2-3 CBGs; China will replace the US as the next SLOCs policeman & the Russian seaborne trade (a fraction of China's) outside of the NSR will be secure under her protection.

    looks like probable option. Russia can develop rich economy but limiting factor will always be demography. Even with huge immigration policy unlikely till 2050 wont be moremthan 180 mlns.

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