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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:47 am

    technically you still can. But you dont upgrade a dead fighter (ok F-5 in Iran is an exception ). Especially that you have a new one with perspective.

    The only real difference between an Su-33 with Su-57 avionics and engines and radar etc, and an Su-57 is the latter has a stealthy design and internal weapons... if it is determined that new radars make radar stealth pointless then you save a lot of money putting Su-57 level equipment in the shell of an Su-33... they are cheaper and easier to make.

    It is like a computer... modern ATX motherboards fit in ATX computer boxes from the late 1990s... you could buy a newer box, but at the end of the day the old big boxes have more internal space for extra things like water cooling systems and the like.

    In fact a friend of mine had a mini tower desktop and his son (who was 3 years old) flicked the switch on the power supply from 240 volts to 110 volts. When he turned on the computer there was a flash of light and a puff of smoke and nothing. He was pissed off because the special power supply for the mini tower system he had would cost $700 to replace. As I said, though it was an ATX motherboard so a normal tower box including a new power supply ended up costing him about $110... and he just took all the bits out of his old computer and put them in the new box... it even had room for another DVD drive which he wanted but could not fit in his old mini tower box.

    OK 70s looks cars look good and can drive with propper maintenance though most of people prefer to drive moderns ones.

    Well that is the thing... old cars tended to look cooler but their handling and the quality of everything from brakes to headlights was usually pathetic... an old car shell with new powerful but fuel efficient engine and new modern brakes and headlights and electronics and you would sell a lot of cars to 40+ aged men... who like the old cars but don't have the hours to tinker and get a real old car working.

    There was a time when you bought a brand new British car and after about 10,000km you had to redo the rings and bearings and replace all sorts of things... here in New Zealand we get second hand Jap imports and they are brilliant... warm comfortable reliable... I wouldn't touch a european or american car.

    is being developed? In Us is also being developed new versions of BVAAM (longest existing AMRAAM AIM C-8 has range > 100nm)
    Im not sure why do you think your enemy has inferior weapons? Isnt it better to assume they are more less on same level?
    Their doctrine can be different true.

    I am not making any assumptions about US weapons... I am saying that in addition to developing the Su-57, the Russians have been developing a new range of AAMs for that aircraft to use. These missiles wont be designed to be used against F-16s and F-15s... they will be intended to be used against F-22s and F-35s and indeed B-2s and later aircraft... so they will most likely be sensor fused seekers using optical and radar sensors for guidance... much like the Su-57 itself has several radar antenna in different bands, as well as EO systems in the form of an IRST as well as EO pods to detect targets... there is no point in developing sensors to detect stealth targets at 300km if you can't use missiles until they are within visual range.

    Su-33 is dead. They need AWACS functionality but dont need Yak-44.

    There is no Yak-44 anyway. And the Su-33 is perfectly fine... good range and wide range of AAM option and a new capability to use cheap dumb iron bombs to flatten mudhuts in third world countries... sounds rather better than an F/A-18 that would cost millions for each bomb that hits not that much more accurately...

    Perhaps the best would be 200k tons with 200 fighters as it wont get via Panama Canal anyway.

    They recently put into service a 200 trillion ton carrier... it can't leave the black sea but there is no way any NATO country could sink her... in fact they recently built a pier to improve supply and logistics to her... the road component is finished and working but the rail system wont be a go till next year... russia

    ok so Su-33 is dead in current scenario. Great we agree. thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup AWACS functionality is needed, how it would be achieved this is another question thpugh.

    If you add an AWACS support platform the Su-33 is perfectly adequate. The only thing that could be better would be a stealthy platform, but we really don't know yet the value of more stealth is... we do know the cost is reduced weapon capacity with internal weapons... or with external weapons when needed there is no stealth advantage but a huge cost in terms of purchase price and maintenance issues with a stealthy nonstealth aircraft.

    ability to support own fleet you'd need to build 3. The bigger they are the less money you have for them.

    Two new carriers is all they actually NEED. Emphasis on NEED.

    They already have the Kuznetsov, which, with upgrades can be used to test new large radar and C4IR sets and equipment... two CVNs would be all they needed operationally... with their ice breaking capacity becoming quite extensive, they could have distribute the three carriers between the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet... with three carriers in an emergency they will always have two ships available and likely in refit... one will be near home port in training and one will be deployed on some operational mission like a visit to South America... Twisted Evil

    So the only difference between Air to Ground Missiles and Surface to Air Missiles is the Seeker, isn't it ? All other components more or less remain the same ?

    Previously there was a lot of mixed use missiles... if you look at the AA-1 and the AS-7 and AS-10 and AS-12 the body shape is the same... with a rear facing antenna and side mounted rocket nozzles.

    Pretty soon however, missiles started being custom designed for the role, so new shapes were developed to suit different purposes and different carriers.

    Ironically now the requirements for small compact missiles for internal carriage on stealth aircraft and bombers has led to some crossover with compact missiles that are ground launched from tubes that have been made as compact as possible to allow multiple tubes per launcher.

    The Kinzhal air to surface missile seems to just be a slightly modified Iskander surface to surface missile... and a new missile called 9M100 or Morfei is reported to be a small IIR guided missile for cross platforms intended to be fired from a ground vehicle, and a ship and an aircraft.

    In the Army role it will be a point defence missile, while in the navy it will be a new CIWS missile, while the air force would use it in a range of roles... from internal weapon bay weapon for a stealth fighter, to self defence for bombers and helicopters and strike aircraft... possibly even an anti missile missile that could be used by otherwise unarmed aircraft to defend against SAMs and AAMs directed at them.

    There has been talk of new AAMs based on the S-400 family of missiles including the two smaller missiles and the big missiles and one would assume if this is true there would be potential that they take this a step further and have an air launched S-500 for heavy interceptor aircraft and indeed anti satellite use... MiG-41???

    (note a MiG-41 operating at 30km altitude at mach 4.2 with an S-500 missile should be able to target satellites in quite high orbits... and can be moved around Russian airspace rapidly to get a specific satellite quite easily...)
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    technically you still can. But you dont upgrade a dead fighter (ok F-5 in Iran is an exception ). Especially that you have a new one with perspective.
    The only real difference between an Su-33 with Su-57 avionics and engines and radar etc, and an Su-57 is the latter has a stealthy design and internal weapons... if it is determined that new radars make radar stealth pointless then you save a lot of money putting Su-57 level equipment in the shell of an Su-33... they are cheaper and easier to make.

    in fact you dont need Su-57 at all! neither 6gen fighter Russia is workin on. Iran would make F-5 unread if they could get anything newer. No su-33is dead branch only waiting to be decommissioned.



    OK 70s looks cars look good and can drive with propper maintenance though most of people prefer to drive moderns ones.

    Well that is the thing... old cars tended to look cooler but their handling and the quality of everything from brakes to headlights was usually pathetic... an old car shell with new powerful but fuel efficient engine and new modern brakes and headlights and electronics and you would sell a lot of cars to 40+ aged men... who like the old cars but don't have the hours to tinker and get a real old car working.

    old car with new stuff is pimped on and actually hand made. Massprduce dcar with retro looks is in fact  a new car.  Handmade is~ 10x more expensive then regular Honda or Kia you can buy at any dealership.

    Good comparison to Su-33



    they will be intended to be used against F-22s and F-35s and indeed B-2s and later aircraft... so they will most likely be sensor fused seekers using optical and radar sensors for guidance... much like the Su-57 itself has  several radar antenna in different bands, as well as EO systems in the form of an IRST as well as EO pods to detect targets... there is no point in developing sensors to detect stealth targets at 300km if you can't use missiles until they are within visual range.

    that's why US Navy bets on 6gen fighter with high survivability in access denial zones not anymore so much effort put on stealth. That's why Russia is working on 6gen fighter too. B-2 will be replaced by new bombers better suited with self defense mechanisms.

    New missiles and new fighters it wont stop just like that. Missiles good for F-22 perhaps wont be good against F/AXX.




    Su-33 is dead. They need AWACS functionality but dont need Yak-44.
    There is no Yak-44 anyway. And the Su-33 is perfectly fine... good range and wide range of AAM option and a new capability to use cheap dumb iron bombs to flatten mudhuts in third world countries...

    F-18 will be replaced in in 2030s. By then Su-33 will be even deader. You never listen to official Russian announcements, dont you? nobody planes re-starting Su-33 production. Nobody orders even MiG-35.





    ok so Su-33 is dead in current scenario. Great we agree. thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup AWACS functionality is needed, how it would be achieved this is another question thpugh.
    f you add an AWACS support platform the Su-33 is perfectly adequate. The only thing that could be better would be a stealthy platform, but we really don't know yet the value of more stealth is... we do know the cost is reduced weapon capacity with internal weapons... or with external weapons when needed there is no stealth advantage but a huge cost in terms of purchase price and maintenance issues with a stealthy nonstealth aircraft.

    when your wife says in the morning: honey it was adequate, Im not sure if this is reason to celebrate lol1 lol1 lol1 why use 4 gen dead "adequate" fighter (in 2030 also lifecycle of air-frames/engines are et the end) if you get 6th one, better in every scenario?  unshaven  unshaven  unshaven






    ability to support own fleet you'd need to build 3. The bigger they are the less money you have for them.
    Two new carriers is all they actually NEED.  Emphasis on NEED.

    They already have the Kuznetsov, which, with upgrades can be used to test new large radar and C4IR sets and equipment... two CVNs would be all they needed operationally... with their ice breaking capacity becoming quite extensive, they could have distribute the three carriers between the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet... with three carriers in an emergency they will always have two ships available and likely in refit... one will be near home port in training and one will be deployed on some operational mission like a visit to South America...  Twisted Evil

    so actually they need 3 to have almost 2 operational at the same time. Before 3 is launched Kuz will be dead.   lol1  lol1  lol1
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:58 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:that's why US Navy bets on 6gen fighter with high survivability in access denial zones not anymore so much effort put on stealth. That's why Russia is working on 6gen fighter too. B-2 will be replaced by new bombers better suited with self defense mechanisms.

    New missiles and new fighters it wont stop just like that. Missiles good for F-22 perhaps wont be good against F/AXX.  
    Wow, still peddling the F-A/XX? Man you deserve recognition for your efforts, clearly beyond those of USN (they don't even bother publishing much about the program since a while) lol1

    Care detailing how the survivability in "access denial" zones (against IADs to avoid unnecessary & misleading US terms) is achieved in F-A/XX?? I mean, apart from vague references to fancy energy weapons, lasers, smart skins and high-tech engines... what? When? How many? How expensive? Where are the demonstrators to all those features? Where are even the requirements? Is it official that it is not going to be stealth and US is giving up on VLO technology??? This is news to me...

    And more importantly: if Su-57 is not capable of matching it, being the by far most capable naval fighter potentially to be deployed in short or medium term, your couple squadrons STOVL aboard a small LHD are?? Or what is the approach you propose??
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:06 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Wow, still peddling the F-A/XX? Man you deserve recognition for your efforts, clearly beyond those of USN (they don't even bother publishing much about the program since a while) lol1

    Care detailing how the survivability in "access denial" zones (against IADs to avoid unnecessary & misleading US terms) is achieved in F-A/XX?? I mean, apart from vague references to fancy energy weapons, lasers, smart skins and high-tech engines... what? When? How many? How expensive? Where are the demonstrators to all those features? Where are even the requirements? Is it official that it is not going to be stealth and US is giving up on VLO technology??? This is news to me...

    1) I love to hear the laser/EW weapons are to you SCi-Fi, perhaps it is good to read sometimes military news? I can see the same denial as before with VSTOL lol1 lol1 lol1
    Survability is first of all using weapons to shoot down missiles, dazzle their sensors or cook electronics. if there be any special armor dunno.



    https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/4421436
    MOSCOW, March 6. / TASS /. The newest MiG-35 fighter is able to use all types of aircraft ammunition that the Russian Space Forces (RFC) have, including laser weapons. This was broadcast on the air of the radio station Ekho Moskvy by General Director of the Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) MiG Ilya Tarasenko.

    "Laser weapons involve the use of a certain laser technology.Our aircraft use the entire range of modern weapons, which is now available from the Ministry of Defense, including using those issues related to laser weapons," he said.

    Earlier, the chief of the Air and Space Forces of Russia, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev, announced the possibility of using laser weapons on the MiG-35 aircraft.



    Coming in 2021: A laser weapon for fighter jets

    WASHINGTON — Lockheed Martin will create a high-powered laser for the U.S. Air Force that will be demonstrated on a fighter jet in 2021.
    +++
    If successful, the technology could be a game-changer. The Air Force has long desired an airborne laser so that it can take out surface-to-air and air-to-air missile threats more cheaply than current intercept methods.

    https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/11/07/coming-in-2021-a-laser-weapon-for-fighter-jets/


    U.S. AIR FORCE JET-MOUNTED LASER WEAPONS SET FOR SUMMER TESTS

    https://www.newsweek.com/air-force-jet-mounted-laser-weapons-set-summer-tests-852889




    2) when what?
    well do you know when Russian CVNs will be build? how many VSTOL fighters? will they carry maser or lasers? BTW why do you peddling Su-57k , did anybody ever mentioned about this version? AFAIK was only once on plastic model of Shtorm. Which is not going to be build BTW lol1 lol1 lol1


    And more importantly: if Su-57 is not capable of matching it, being the by far most capable naval fighter potentially to be deployed in short or medium term, your couple squadrons STOVL aboard a small LHD are?? Or what is the approach you propose??

    You dont need something made of gold and the best. You need a good work horse thet you can afford. PzKpfw V was a bit better then T-34-85/M4 Sherman but was build 1:6.
    My educated guess is that VSTOL will be in many respects 6gn fighter (supermaneuverability, short start/vertical, efficient engine, microwave/ laser weapons, advanced avionics (drone mode?) . This is not going to replace Su-57 but complete is as MiG-29/Su-27 then Su-30 will be gradually withdrawn. VSTOL is perhaps mainly die to better usage of small medium displacement ships. There is no need fo rany deck fighter before 2030s anyway.

    This is game of money. You cannot spend beyond your means. That's why I dont believe big CVNs will ever fit into Russian military doctrine. At Most I'd say 60-70k but then their number will be then very limited. And one effectively available. In north.


    I dotn propose. I just say cost/battle efficiency ratio using smaller carrier and light fighters is much higher. Russia will and cannot spend in US fashion as you want to see it. Navy programmes are cut and postponed. Navy wanted to build many Liders but ended up with couple of Groskhov M's. Instead of many 11356 they build 22800. Tehy wanted 100k+ then 70k is OK, now Krylov showed 40k . That's how financial restrictions helps to overcome megalomania.

    Then now suddenly they will spill a barrel of fluid gold and start building large CVNs? Somehow I dont see it.

    Mind VSTOL is approved officially unlike Su-57k. It dosent even exist in far far away plans. unshaven unshaven unshaven





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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:53 pm

    in fact you dont need Su-57 at all! neither 6gen fighter Russia is workin on.

    Of course you do... it is always good to have aircraft superior to any potential enemy... which is what the MiG-35, and Su-35, and MiG-31 are... Su-57s just take it up another level.... Razz

    No su-33is dead branch only waiting to be decommissioned.

    Su-33 is a perfectly good airframe that just needs a new radar and new missiles to be very very dangerous.

    Good comparison to Su-33

    Most of the stuff in the Su-57 will eventually be shoe horned into the Su-35... so fitting it into the Su-33 should not be a problem.

    New missiles and new fighters it wont stop just like that. Missiles good for F-22 perhaps wont be good against F/AXX.

    The planes they launch them from are just missile trucks... the difference will be the hundred million dollar plus US missile trucks and the 20 million dollar Russian ones...

    when your wife says in the morning: honey it was adequate, Im not sure if this is reason to celebrate

    Reminds me of a joke... a prostitute is in bed and the huge biker customer is taking off his pants and out pops a tiny little one inch penis. She looks at him and asks... who is that supposed to satisfy... to which he replies... Me.

    why use 4 gen dead "adequate" fighter (in 2030 also lifecycle of air-frames/engines are et the end) if you get 6th one, better in every scenario?

    Because the 4th gen fighter is already paid for, so it is free, and the new avionics you are adding to it to keep it competitive are going into all new fighters too, so it keeps consistency, good for mass production, good for training, and good for keeping costs down... having plenty of Su-33s with up to date electronics is better than only being able to afford 12 new light 5th gen fighters because they are so expensive and aerodynamically unproven.

    The Su-57s can go on the new carriers, and any 6th gen UCAVs can be deployed on both carrier types...

    so actually they need 3 to have almost 2 operational at the same time. Before 3 is launched Kuz will be dead.

    They need three carriers in total, so with the K they need two CVNs to achieve that... eventually the K can be retired and replaced with a third CVN.

    You dont need something made of gold and the best. You need a good work horse thet you can afford.

    They are not going to have thousands of carrier based fighters so there is no point in developing a whole new aircraft especially for the job, but of the land based aircraft to pick from it makes no sense to pick an old aircraft like a MiG-23... pick the newest and most capable and keep using what you have got until that is ready to replace it.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:30 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    1) I love to hear the laser/EW weapons are to you SCi-Fi, perhaps it is good to read sometimes military news? I can see the same denial as before with VSTOL lol1 lol1 lol1
    Survability is first of all using weapons to shoot down missiles, dazzle their sensors or cook electronics. if there  be any special armor dunno.
    By now it is not even close to being operational. It will come probably, but we are still far from that. Countermeasures will be developed and doctrine will need to be adapted. It is still unclear if these weapons will make a change in the kind of platforms used for air combat, maybe in the future fighters are substituted for transport planes with huge DEW and stocks of drones and/or missiles, who knows. So if traditional fighters are still applicable, these systems could be implemented on a Su-57. If not, the F/A-XX would be obsolete too, if ever developed at all.


    Earlier, the chief of the Air and Space Forces of Russia, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev, announced the possibility of using laser weapons on the MiG-35 aircraft
    Laser GUIDED weapons...

    Coming in 2021: A laser weapon for fighter jets
    Yes yes yes... Sleep


    2) when what?
    well do you know when Russian CVNs will be build? how many VSTOL fighters? will they carry maser or lasers?  BTW why do you peddling    Su-57k , did anybody ever  mentioned about this version? AFAIK was only once on plastic model of Shtorm. Which is not going to be build BTW   lol1 lol1 lol1
    Su-57K has been a recurring discussion of course, but there is no official confirmation as of now. But hope dies last you know Very Happy
    Differently to fictional F/A-XX and STOVL, the baseline model already flies. And the K is there.

    You dont need something made of gold and the best. You need a good work horse thet you can afford. PzKpfw V was a bit better  then T-34-85/M4 Sherman but was build 1:6.
    My educated guess is that VSTOL will be in many respects 6gn fighter (supermaneuverability, short start/vertical, efficient engine, microwave/ laser weapons, advanced avionics (drone mode?) . This is not going to replace Su-57 but complete is as MiG-29/Su-27 then Su-30 will be gradually withdrawn.  VSTOL is perhaps mainly die to better usage of small medium displacement ships. There is no need fo rany deck fighter before 2030s anyway.
    Still not clear how you want to meet the threats with less planes not better than those from USN or what the posture is going to be, if you can't meet them.

    That's how financial restrictions helps to overcome megalomania.
    This I agree. But a naval version of the Su-57, three or four carriers like the K but modern and good AWACS/AEW/Tanker solutions are not megalomania IMO. Maybe yes for UK but not for Russia.

    Mind VSTOL is approved officially unlike Su-57k. It dosent even exist in far far away plans. unshaven unshaven unshaven
    We'll see...   Razz
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    in fact you dont need Su-57 at all! neither 6gen fighter Russia is workin on.

    Of course you do... it is always good to have aircraft superior to any potential enemy... which is what the MiG-35, and Su-35, and MiG-31 are... Su-57s just take it up another level....  Razz

    MiG-35 is not gonna be produced. Su-35 is great but too big for caeeirs role same as Su-57



    No su-33is dead branch only waiting to be decommissioned.

    Su-33 is a perfectly good airframe that just needs a new radar and new missiles to be very very dangerous.

    is any of your girlfriends younger then 65?  Suspect  Suspect  Suspect  Nobody ever said about resuming Su-33 production but about retirement they did. many times.




    New missiles and new fighters it wont stop just like that. Missiles good for F-22 perhaps wont be good against F/AXX.
    The planes they launch them from are just missile trucks... the difference will be the hundred million dollar plus US missile trucks and the 20 million dollar Russian ones...

    Su-57 is so far 830mlns $  USD per unit. Not sure about what 20mlns are you talking about?  Planes indeed are missile trucks but that's why both sides are working on directed energy weapons. To shoot incoming missiles.



    when your wife says in the morning: honey it was adequate, Im not sure if this is reason to celebrate
    Reminds me of a joke... a prostitute is in bed and the huge biker customer is taking off his pants and out pops a tiny little one inch penis. She looks at him and asks... who is that supposed to satisfy... to which he replies... Me.


    I had similar problems. Size. All girlfriends always had problem with that: oh no it's too big!!!




    why use 4 gen dead "adequate" fighter (in 2030 also lifecycle of air-frames/engines are et the end) if you get 6th one, better in every scenario?  

    Because the 4th gen fighter is already paid for, so it is free, and the new avionics you are adding to it to keep it competitive are going into all new fighters too, so it keeps consistency, good for mass production, good for training, and good for keeping costs down...[/quote]
    ok now lsst get back to realm of reality.




    The Su-57s can go on the new carriers, and any 6th gen UCAVs can be deployed on both carrier types...

    True, Russian small fighter is better for smaller ships though. lol1  lol1  lol1



    so actually they need 3 to have almost 2 operational at the same time. Before 3 is launched Kuz will be dead.  
    They need three carriers in total, so with the K they need two CVNs to achieve that... eventually the K can be retired and replaced with a third CVN.

    one goes surely to North. I wonder if seconf one will risking go to Mediterranean+Somalia region?




    You dont need something made of gold and the best. You need a good work horse thet you can afford.
    They are not going to have thousands of carrier based fighters so there is no point in developing a whole new aircraft especially for the job, but of the land based aircraft to pick from it makes no sense to pick an old aircraft like a MiG-23... pick the newest and most capable and keep using what you have got until that is ready to replace it.
    [/quote]

    Tehre si no point do develop light  fighter? well but they made decison already they will  russia russia russia


    this is only artist impression though bu cute

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:54 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    By now it is not even close to being operational. It will come probably, but we are still far from that. Countermeasures will be developed and doctrine will need to be adapted. It is still unclear if these weapons will make a change in the kind of platforms used for air combat, maybe in the future fighters are substituted for transport planes with huge DEW and stocks of drones and/or missiles, who knows. So if traditional fighters are still applicable, these systems could be implemented on a Su-57. If not, the F/A-XX would be obsolete too, if ever developed at all.


    So you think US navy will remains without any fighters after 2030s? there is constant change that's why you need constantly design new fighters/weapons too. Not to get stuck with 50years old tech because its cute  lol1  lol1  lol1





    2) when what?
    Su-57K has been a recurring discussion of course, but there is no official confirmation as of now. But hope dies last you know Very Happy

    sure, on this forum. Nothing official tho.  pirat  pirat  pirat





    Differently to fictional F/A-XX and STOVL, the baseline model already flies. And the K is there.

    K is there in 2022 (oops 2021 is fictional right?) Su-57 is in 2 pieces. Great  Of course Su-57 was till this year also fictional you know  lol1  lol1  lol1 MiG-35 is gonna be fictional too. The truth is you dont have anything yet in Russian navy atm.  





    Still not clear how you want to meet the threats with less planes not better than those from USN or what the posture is going to be, if you can't meet them.

    The truth si simple. You newer have a parity with Us navy. Ever. Thats why you need something to do assumed tasks but not to kill your budget (0.1 US one)  And your task is not fighting midway battles.





    That's how financial restrictions helps to overcome megalomania.
    This I agree. But a naval version of the Su-57, three or four carriers like the K but modern and good AWACS/AEW/Tanker solutions are not megalomania IMO. Maybe yes for UK but not for Russia.

    I dont see any budget means for those ambitious plans till 2027, and IMHO unlikely after. BTW Su-57k is like a ghost to me. You saw it but nobody else did.




    Mind VSTOL is approved officially unlike Su-57k. It dosent even exist in far far away plans. unshaven unshaven unshaven
    We'll see...   Razz

    of course we do !

    lol! lol! lol![/quote]
    [/quote]
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:49 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So you think US navy will remains without any fighters after 2030s? there is constant change that's why you need constantly design new fighters/weapons too. Not to get stuck with 50years old tech because its cute  lol1  lol1  lol1
    They will have robust numbers of unparalleled & unmatched, freedom-powering multirole F-35Cs, together with upgraded F/A-18E/F (the plane piloted by Maverick!  bounce ). Who could wish for something better?

    K is there in 2022 (oops 2021 is fictional right?) Su-57 is in 2 pieces. Great  Of course Su-57 was till this year also fictional you know  lol1  lol1  lol1 MiG-35 is gonna be fictional too. The truth is you dont have anything yet in Russian navy atm.
    Some basic semantics my friend: fictional is when you only see a CGI or even worse fan art. When you see actual pictures of planes flying and ships sailing it is called "real"  What a Face

    The truth si simple. You newer have a parity with Us navy. Ever. Thats why you need something to do assumed tasks but not to kill your budget (0.1 US one)  And your task is not fighting midway battles.
    You seem to love Midway. We just talk about the air cover you need to avoid embarrassing provocations or being ousted from a disputed area, without this you are realistically only going to operate in undisputed regions. I proposed a way to achieve serious deterrence against CSGs with minimum modifications to existing HW and with much smaller numbers and investment than USN

    I dont see any budget means for those ambitious plans till 2027, and IMHO unlikely after. BTW Su-57k is like a ghost to me. You saw it but nobody else did.
    You and Vlad must be really close if you got to see the detailed budget of the current armament program  cheers
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:09 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So you think US navy will remains without any fighters after 2030s? there is constant change that's why you need constantly design new fighters/weapons too. Not to get stuck with 50years old tech because its cute  lol1  lol1  lol1
    They will have robust numbers of unparalleled & unmatched, freedom-powering multirole F-35Cs, together with upgraded F/A-18E/F (the plane piloted by Maverick!  bounce ). Who could wish for something better?

    No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.
    F-18 ~1400
    F-18 Superhornet 500

    not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
    I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.

    Mavericks are now fighting mummies and kazansky  is too fat to fly   affraid  affraid  affraid





    K is there in 2022 (oops 2021 is fictional right?) Su-57 is in 2 pieces. Great  Of course Su-57 was till this year also fictional you know  lol1  lol1  lol1 MiG-35 is gonna be fictional too. The truth is you dont have anything yet in Russian navy atm.
    Some basic semantics my friend: fictional is when you only see a CGI or even worse fan art. When you see actual pictures of planes flying and ships sailing it is called "real"  What a Face
    ]

    I dont see any Su-57k flying and Kuz sailing till 2022 either.  dunno  dunno  dunno

    OK Suu-57k was real not CGI. This was once in fantasy of Krylov. This does count ?  scratch  scratch  scratch

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    The truth si simple. You newer have a parity with Us navy. Ever. Thats why you need something to do assumed tasks but not to kill your budget (0.1 US one)  And your task is not fighting midway battles.
    You seem to love Midway. We just talk about the air cover you need to avoid embarrassing provocations or being ousted from a disputed area, without this you are realistically only going to operate in undisputed regions. I proposed a way to achieve serious deterrence against CSGs with minimum modifications to existing HW and with much smaller numbers and investment than USN

    Then 30 fighters is more than enough for task.  Perhaps even less. Syria is a heavy contested area and has 8 fighters max.  32 is an improvement by 400%  russia  russia  russia




    I dont see any budget means for those ambitious plans till 2027, and IMHO unlikely after. BTW Su-57k is like a ghost to me. You saw it but nobody else did.
    You and Vlad must be really close if you got to see the detailed budget of the current armament program  cheers

    Hmm I wonder where did you see any information about mega CVNs? I can see  now postponing and cutting most of programmes. not to mention that the only source of Su-57k  is  one three plastic models. not for Tamiya though.  What a Face  What a Face  What a Face


    BTW Supreme Commander yesterday ordered development of new weapons (AFAIK qualitatively new designs) . Im not sure if Su-33 counts here  lol1  lol1  lol1
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:16 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.  
    The F-35 is not apt as a fighter? Go tell the allies and the USAF please, they will adore the news.

    not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
    I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.
    2 squadrons F-35C per CVN makes 240 planes. So if they ordered 340 (not checked it) they would have some spares
    F/A-18 was from the beginning a strike fighter, not air superiority specialised fighter.
    Sorry for the bad news, but if they have to get a substitute by 2030 based on the progress pace of F/A-XX they are royally screwed  cry
    Only half intelligent solution would be the F-22/F-35 hybrid in naval variant but that would leave Boeing in a very bad situation...
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    Post  kumbor on Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:06 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.  
    The F-35 is not apt as a fighter? Go tell the allies and the USAF please, they will adore the news.

    not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
    I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.
    2 squadrons F-35C per CVN makes 240 planes. So if they ordered 340 (not checked it) they would have some spares
    F/A-18 was from the beginning a strike fighter, not air superiority specialised fighter.
    Sorry for the bad news, but if they have to get a substitute by 2030 based on the progress pace of F/A-XX they are royally screwed  cry
    Only half intelligent solution would be the F-22/F-35 hybrid in naval variant but that would leave Boeing in a very bad situation...

    USAF, Navy and Marines cannot approve to put in service bad aircraft. So, F-35 is not a bad plane.But, it is underperforming, underpowered for a fighter, incapable to be real strike aircraft, it is prohibitively expensive and it is full of mechanical, electronical and software "gremlins". As everything that is meant to be universal, every special task cannot be performed on the same level. It has superior radar, potentially state of the art electronics once "gremlins' are wiped out" and AMRAAM missiles are excellent. But it cannot survive in combat with superior, equal in way of electronics, dedicated fighter. F-35 will be not more than adequate for some missions, and mediocre for some others. It may be a good plane, but it`s a disaster in way of economics, maintenance and logistics. poor value for HUUUUGE money!
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:03 am

    kumbor wrote:
    USAF, Navy and Marines cannot approve to put in service bad aircraft. So, F-35 is not a bad plane.But, it is underperforming, underpowered for a fighter, incapable to be real strike aircraft, it is prohibitively expensive and it is full of mechanical, electronical and software "gremlins". As everything that is meant to be universal, every special task cannot be performed on the same level. It has superior radar, potentially state of the art electronics once "gremlins' are wiped out" and AMRAAM missiles are excellent. But it cannot survive in combat with superior, equal in way of electronics, dedicated fighter. F-35 will be not more than adequate for some missions, and mediocre for some others. It may be a good plane, but it`s a disaster in way of economics, maintenance and logistics. poor value for HUUUUGE money!


    I cannot agree more. F-35 had too many requirements to fit into one plane. Huge payload, VSTOL and stealth and great maneuverability. No nobody will give up F-35 but I am sure they wond be ordered in such numbers as foreseen before. F/A-XX will speed up significantly.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:17 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.  
    The F-35 is not apt as a fighter? Go tell the allies and the USAF please, they will adore the news.

    they already know it is good for bombing low tech countries or fighting with low tech fighters as Su-33  lol1  lol1  lol1



    not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
    I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.
    2 squadrons F-35C per CVN makes 240 planes. So if they ordered 340 (not checked it) they would have some spares
    F/A-18 was from the beginning a strike fighter, not air superiority specialised fighter.
    Sorry for the bad news, but if they have to get a substitute by 2030 based on the progress pace of F/A-XX they are royally screwed  cry
    Only half intelligent solution would be the F-22/F-35 hybrid in naval variant but that would leave Boeing in a very bad situation...

    wiki says: USN - F-35C 260 planned (80 on Marines land base ;-) .  For 10 CVNs 75 fighters each doesnt make numbers needed to replace all right?

    F-18 shall be replaced by 2040s not 2030s. 2030s they will start the process. Same as Russians with Su-33/MiG-29k.
    MiG-29 wasnt also designed as air superiority fighter either. On CVN you dotn need such. You need also strike platform to bomb land/sea targets.  Build hybrid F-22/F-35 so again risk spending billions for nothing? affraid affraid affraid

    F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.



    As you like CGI here you have yet another one:
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:30 am

    F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.


    They are more talking about new f-18 and new f-15 than this thing.

    F-35 that is manned has so many bugs that they are still working on it and they will work probably for a couple years more.

    F/AXX is meant to be even more sofisticated and unmanned. It's not gonna be ready before 2040/2045 for sure.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:07 am

    Isos wrote:
    F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.


    They are more talking about new f-18 and new f-15 than this thing.

    F-35 that is manned has so many bugs that they are still working on it and they will work probably for a couple years more.

    F/AXX is meant to be even more sofisticated and unmanned. It's not gonna be ready before 2040/2045 for sure.


    Then is exact time when F-18 will be with drawn. First bet on F/AXX was made by 2030 but realistically around 2040 can go in numbers to Navy (its navy fighter). AFAIK unmanned is an option not requirement, same as Russian new fighters.

    Realistically Russian MiG-41 or new VSTOL also will be ready by 2030s.2030 is max time for MiG-31 not to mention MiG-29ro Su-27

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