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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:55 pm

    Extra replacement Sats can be pre positioned for launch ahead of time, & this was practiced by RF already.
    The Su-57 is still in development- it's too early to even dream about it being navalized; I searched & found nothing hinting at it!
    Combined with the dramatic collapse of the Russian economy in the wake of Western economic sanctions following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the inflexibility of UAC made the Su-57 impossible to realize. No matter how large or populated, a country with GDP comparable to that of Australia cannot afford to play at being a superpower, fight a protracted war in Syria and develop its own stealth fighter. [and having many other priorities in the shipbuilding, produce & operate Storm-size CVNs.]
    The last hope for the project was the serious Indian interest in financing the conversion of the Su-57 into a stealth strike fighter in the class of the Su-30MKI. But the management structures Putin imposed undermined that collaboration.
    Of course, the Kremlin’s core interest in the Su-57 is scoring big propaganda points by creating a supposed match for Lockheed’s F-22 Raptor. This is something the business-minded Indian air force is not keen to finance. [Besides the Storm CVN]. And that means the Su-57 is going nowhere fast.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-su-57-stealth-fighter-122900472.html
    Navalizing the Su-57 will be a huge wa$te now as their CVN has a big ? mark over it.
    I have my doubts about the Su-34 navalization as well- fully loaded, it's too heavy for anything but CATOBAR; but perhaps its planned smaller single seat variant has a chance in CAWs: https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/su-34-fullback/

    NK wasn't intimidated by 3 USN CBGs & 1 SSGN off her coast; the era of such "gunboat diplomacy" is over. OTH, most 3rd world countries usually have a few more powerful friends/allies, even if temporary- together they can deter CBGs. Brazilians r now developing SSN & said they don't need any CVs.
    The Russian Arctic can be patrolled & defended better by the AF, land based NAF, SSNs, CGNs, armed icebreakers, S-300/400/500s, Naval Infantry, Border Guards/CG ice strengthened Offshore Patrol Boats & UDKs- operating STOBAR/CATOBAR TAKRs & CVNs beyond the Barents Sea isn't practical nor safe due to very low temperatures/visibility & flightdeck icing, to name a few. As noted on the Borey thread, all of their SSBNs don't need to go on patrol- most of the CONUS is in range from their Kola & Kamchatka bases. For added security, they could even build a base on the lake Baikal (the deepest in the world)- a few smaller subs armed with Sineva SLBMs &/ bottom BMs can reach USA from the Northern part of it.
    During the winter and spring, the surface freezes for 4–5 months; from early January to May–June (latest in the north), the entire lake surface is covered in ice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal#Water_temperature
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal#/media/File:Yeniseirivermap.png
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal#Proposed_nuclear_enrichment_plant

    The adjacent & connected to it Bratsk reservoir has an area of 5,426-5,470km2 with max. depth of 150m. http://russiangeography.com/West_Siberian_plain/bratsk-reservoir
    Plenty of room to hide & no need for TAKRs/CVNs to protect them!
    All the "bathtubs" around the RF can already become no-go zone for NATO during a crisis; soon the Zircones will make the 'Mediterranean NATO lake' a distant memory. The same with RF bases in Sudan for the Red Sea. They may also get access to bases in Angola, Mozambique, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Indonesia & Vietnam.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:22 am

    Bombing baby milk factories is pretty much only role carriers have left these days. They won't be protecting anything in this day and age. WW2 is over. Even Cold War is (not that they would have been of much use then as well)

    Attacking land targets they can do with Corvettes 2,000km away from the target... they don't need carriers for that.

    So first things first, other stuff later and stupid useless crap like supercarriers much much later or better yet never.

    Super carriers never.

    Medium carriers that can offer air protection for a small group of ships thousands of kms away from Russian territory however will be useful in 15-20 years time when Russia wants to expand her influence and protect foreign assets.

    If missiles are what the Russian navy wants why the bloody hell would they waste enough money to build atleast 5 Shtorms on LHDs with VTOL?

    If missiles are what the navy wants then they don't want VTOL.

    It is not about having one or the other when you can get the best of both... hypersonic missiles and decent 5th gen fighters to protect your fleet from same attack.

    One possible alternitive to the Shtorm would be a heavy nuclear powered missile cruiser with the ability to carry more than 100 long range cruise missiles but ofcourse you would disagree because vessels capable of commanding and supporting other vessels are a bad Idea and would comprimise the entire Russian navy.

    If you just want something that can carry lots of vertical launch tubes then build a barge that a big ship could tow into position...

    More than enough to fulfill it's core purpose: bombing mountain tribes, baby milk factories and flying Russian flag atop sufficiently large, fully erect geopolitical dick.


    Their corvettes already offer the capability to destroy baby milk factories, what they need is a capacity to protect a group of ships at sea beyond the reach of Russian territory.

    Now replace battleships with CVN's and aircraft with missiles and you should get up-to-date picture.

    Battleships became obsolete because their one trick was being able to loft a shell heavy enough to penetrate the armour of an enemy battleship over a fairly short distance.

    Aircraft were able to deliver much heavier weapons to targets much more distant.

    To have an argument at sea you must have one on land too and I don't see any of the worlds powers saying they don't want to waste money making planes when missiles can do everything... they just can't.

    No, such vessels will simply become liabilities due to factors such as their great expense, their huge complement of 5K personnel per hull, and the catastrophic impact on morale in the event of their loss.

    Except that 99% of Russian Navy use for a fixed wing carrier will be for "peacetime" not against NATO or the US or Starting WWIII.

    A carrier will be a force multiplier that will make any Russian surface action group vastly more powerful most of the time.

    If anyone can work out how to stop hypersonic threats it will be the Russians because air defence is their thing...

    Of course, the Kremlin’s core interest in the Su-57 is scoring big propaganda points by creating a supposed match for Lockheed’s F-22 Raptor. This is something the business-minded Indian air force is not keen to finance. [Besides the Storm CVN]. And that means the Su-57 is going nowhere fast. https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-su-57-stealth-fighter-122900472.html

    What is this shit Tsavo? Do you even read what you post?

    Are you trying to suggest that the Su-57 is just propaganda and was only ever designed to "counter" F-22 propaganda?

    WTF are you smoking?

    Even just from the specs the F-22 is inferior even if we ignore its propensity to murder its pilots by suffocating them because its oxygen system is shit...

    The Su-34 was NEVER navalised, that is bullshit too.

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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 4 Empty Helicopter carriers

    Post  runaway on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:14 am

    Well it seems there will perhaps be helicopter carriers in the near future:

    MOSCOW, January 10. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) have agreed to start the construction of domestic helicopter carriers in 2020 at the Northern Shipyard, a military-industrial complex source told TASS.

    "The Russian Defense Ministry and the USC have agreed that the Northern Shipyard enterprise will carry out work on the helicopter carriers and the Leader destroyers. It is already conducting comprehensive reconstruction of its productive capacities, including the construction of a workshop to build ships of these classes," the source said.


    Read also

    Russia to build first helicopter carrier by 2022


    "The plant is expected to first build two helicopter carries and then to start constructing the destroyers. R&D work for the helicopter carriers will kick off in 2018, the construction of the lead ship is expected to start in 2020 and in 2024 it will join the fleet. The first and only series helicopter carrier is due to be manufactured in 2022 and become operational in 2026," the source specified.

    TASS has no official confirmation of this information.



    Another source told TASS earlier that helicopter carriers would be powered by a combined diesel and gas turbine, in which the diesel engine is the main one, and the turbine is needed to accelerate power. The ships will mostly carry Ka-52K helicopters that will be delivered to the armed forces simultaneously with the helicopter carriers. The ships will also service Ka-27s, Ka-29s and Ka-31s.

    Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov earlier told reporters that the first Russian helicopter carrier will be finished roughly by 2022.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/984382
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:06 pm

    runaway wrote:Well it seems there will perhaps be helicopter carriers in the near future:

    MOSCOW, January 10. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) have agreed to start the construction of domestic helicopter carriers in 2020 at the Northern Shipyard, a military-industrial complex source told TASS.

    "The Russian Defense Ministry and the USC have agreed that the Northern Shipyard enterprise will carry out work on the helicopter carriers and the Leader destroyers. It is already conducting comprehensive reconstruction of its productive capacities, including the construction of a workshop to build ships of these classes," the source said.

    Well I hope the Russian helicarriers will actually have close in weapon systems that can hit things and won't just get re-programed to shoot each other down.... Oh wait you mean helicopter carriers.

    But they said that they will be building leader class destroyers time to watch PapaDragon GunshipDemocracy and the rest of the would be VTOL loby panic.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:59 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    But they said that they will be building leader class destroyers time to watch PapaDragon GunshipDemocracy and the rest of the would be VTOL loby panic.
     

    Oh really? And why would we panic? They are doing exactly the same thing that rest of us believe is smart thing to do.

    They said it themselves:
    "The plant is expected to first build two helicopter carries and then to start constructing the destroyers. R&D work for the helicopter carriers will kick off in 2018, the construction of the lead ship is expected to start in 2020 and in 2024 it will join the fleet. The first and only series helicopter carrier is due to be manufactured in 2022 and become operational in 2026," the source specified.

    So helicopter carriers first, destroyers second. That means that Lider destroyers will not be getting started before 2022 at the absolute earliest and more likely not before 2026. Plenty of time to get some extra Gorshkovs or maybe even Super Gorshkovs into water, to say nothing of submarines, corvettes and missile ships.

    And since transport fleet needs some freshening up building helicopters carriers first makes even more sense. I still believe Navy should get a dozen RoRo ships from South Korea in bulk and tweak them for military use (add radars, helipads, CIWS, and Paket-M) Using civilian RoRos have proven to exceptionally efficient during Syrian ops.


    What I find interesting is that there is still no news about that Lider destroyer that is already being built in secret somewhere in the Arctic? Surely it cannot be bullshit, after all eehenie has guaranteed  it himself...  lol1
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    Post  runaway on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    So helicopter carriers first, destroyers second. That means that Lider destroyers will not be getting started before 2022 at the absolute earliest and more likely not before 2026. Plenty of time to get some extra Gorshkovs or maybe even Super Gorshkovs into water, to say nothing of submarines, corvettes and missile ships.

    And since transport fleet needs some freshening up building helicopters carriers first makes even more sense. I still believe Navy should get a dozen RoRo ships from South Korea in bulk and tweak them for military use (add radars, helipads, CIWS, and Paket-M) Using civilian RoRos have proven to exceptionally efficient during Syrian ops.

    The idea with RoRo ships for transport is excellent, but there is no need to buy them or tweak them with weapons. Just call them in when you need them from the merchant companies.
    Like the Brittish did in Falklands. If it works fine in Syria ops, then continue by all means.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:50 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    But they said that they will be building leader class destroyers time to watch PapaDragon GunshipDemocracy and the rest of the would be VTOL loby panic.
     

    Oh really? And why would we panic? They are doing exactly the same thing that rest of us believe is smart thing to do.

    They said it themselves:
    "The plant is expected to first build two helicopter carries and then to start constructing the destroyers. R&D work for the helicopter carriers will kick off in 2018, the construction of the lead ship is expected to start in 2020 and in 2024 it will join the fleet. The first and only series helicopter carrier is due to be manufactured in 2022 and become operational in 2026," the source specified.

    So helicopter carriers first, destroyers second. That means that Lider destroyers will not be getting started before 2022 at the absolute earliest and more likely not before 2026. Plenty of time to get some extra Gorshkovs or maybe even Super Gorshkovs into water, to say nothing of submarines, corvettes and missile ships.

    And since transport fleet needs some freshening up building helicopters carriers first makes even more sense. I still believe Navy should get a dozen RoRo ships from South Korea in bulk and tweak them for military use (add radars, helipads, CIWS, and Paket-M) Using civilian RoRos have proven to exceptionally efficient during Syrian ops.


    What I find interesting is that there is still no news about that Lider destroyer that is already being built in secret somewhere in the Arctic? Surely it cannot be bullshit, after all eehenie has guaranteed  it himself...  lol1

    The Lider class requires the S-500 missiles system along with many other sytems to be ready before it can become a reality so development of those will have to complete before the first ship can be built.

    A friendly reminder to the would be VTOL lobby they never said that they would be developing VTOL just as never said that the Orlov-Chesmensky was already laid down.

    And if you actually read my comments you would know that I believe eehnie is a little over optimistic and I do not believ we will see any large scale vessels comissioned before the mid to late 2020s but objectivity is clearly not on your agenda is it.
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:20 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Peŕrier wrote:....
    The USA have not even the slighest idea to get rid of their CVNs.....

    Of course they don't just like powers of old had no idea how to get rid of their battleships until they started getting sunk en-masse by cheap aircraft back in WW2.

    It's called fighting yesterday's war. Nothing new or unusual.

    Now replace battleships with CVN's and aircraft with missiles and you should get up-to-date picture.

    Wow you sound just like those people that repeatedly insist the the tank is obsolete and have been insisting since the bloody 1960s yet tanks are still used designed and produced.

    Not to mention how Khrushchev even supported development of tank alternatives but to no avail and like I said tanks are still here.

    One thing to also note just because the Russian navy can deal with carriers relatively easily does not mean they are obsolete as Russia usually makes the best missiles on the planet while nato countries would have a very hard time trying to put a scratch on a Shtorms paint job as they do not even have any air launched anti ship missiles with a range greater than the 600 km range of the S-500 that the Lider class will carry nor do they have any hypersonic missiles.

    Aircraf  carriers have vulnerabilities, but also have some advantages:

    1.- As mobile platform always can get just out of the range of the land based missiles of the adversary.
    2.- The real range of the air weapons of an aircraft carrier is = range of the aircraft + range of the aircraft carried weapon.
    3.- Modern aircraft carriers are multirole. Not just a mobile airfield on the sea. Modern multirole aircraft carriers also carry ship based missiles, even in bigger number than other ships.
    4.- Working as defensive weapons can have coverage of land based weapons and aircrafts (strategic bombers), expanding at same time the area of sea denial, thanks to expand the area where weapons of smaller range but bigger use, can be used.
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:47 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    runaway wrote:Well it seems there will perhaps be helicopter carriers in the near future:

    MOSCOW, January 10. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) have agreed to start the construction of domestic helicopter carriers in 2020 at the Northern Shipyard, a military-industrial complex source told TASS.

    "The Russian Defense Ministry and the USC have agreed that the Northern Shipyard enterprise will carry out work on the helicopter carriers and the Leader destroyers. It is already conducting comprehensive reconstruction of its productive capacities, including the construction of a workshop to build ships of these classes," the source said.

    Well I hope the Russian helicarriers will actually have close in weapon systems that can hit things and won't just get re-programed to shoot each other down.... Oh wait you mean helicopter carriers.

    But they said that they will be building leader class destroyers time to watch PapaDragon GunshipDemocracy and the rest of the would be VTOL loby panic.

    Papadragon, Seig Soloivov, Militarov, JohninMK and other pro-US commenters are fairly panicking.

    They are saying nothing of value. Against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000 they argue that the State Armament Program will not include ships bigger than the Project 22350 (Gorshkov). But then we see news about heavy multirole landing ships, and they welcome the new and try to use it against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000.

    They are not able of articulating a coherent message.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:30 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    A friendly reminder to the would be VTOL lobby they never said that they would be developing VTOL

    Nah, they just suffered​ a stroke simultaneously and all said the same thing and everyone agreed because they like wasting time and money on stuff they won't be developing




    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    just as never said that the Orlov-Chesmensky was already laid down.

    I know they didn't, everyone does. Everyone except certain clown we have here. 



    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    And if you actually read my comments you would know that I believe eehnie is a little over optimistic and I do not believ we will see any large scale vessels comissioned before the mid to late 2020s but objectivity is clearly not on your agenda is it.

    Well that's a funny way of saying "full blown retard". lol1



    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    I do not believ we will see any large scale vessels comissioned before the mid to late 2020s but objectivity is clearly not on your agenda is it.

    As for anything larger than Super Gorshkov we won't be seeing anything before 2030s

    And worry not about my objectivity, it pretty solid, I don't fall for bullshit
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:38 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    runaway wrote:Well it seems there will perhaps be helicopter carriers in the near future:

    MOSCOW, January 10. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) have agreed to start the construction of domestic helicopter carriers in 2020 at the Northern Shipyard, a military-industrial complex source told TASS.

    "The Russian Defense Ministry and the USC have agreed that the Northern Shipyard enterprise will carry out work on the helicopter carriers and the Leader destroyers. It is already conducting comprehensive reconstruction of its productive capacities, including the construction of a workshop to build ships of these classes," the source said.

    Well I hope the Russian helicarriers will actually have close in weapon systems that can hit things and won't just get re-programed to shoot each other down.... Oh wait you mean helicopter carriers.

    But they said that they will be building leader class destroyers time to watch PapaDragon GunshipDemocracy and the rest of the would be VTOL loby panic.

    Papadragon, Seig Soloivov, Militarov, JohninMK and other pro-US commenters are fairly panicking.

    They are saying nothing of value. Against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000 they argue that the State Armament Program will not include ships bigger than the Project 22350 (Gorshkov). But then we see news about heavy multirole landing ships, and they welcome the new and try to use it against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000.

    They are not able of articulating a coherent message.

    Agreed they arguements are copletely invalid.

    PS you forgot to mention GunshipDemocracy.

    I as an officer of the Soviet Interdimentional Command find the level of pro western insubordination on this forum disgusting.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:45 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    runaway wrote:Well it seems there will perhaps be helicopter carriers in the near future:

    MOSCOW, January 10. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) have agreed to start the construction of domestic helicopter carriers in 2020 at the Northern Shipyard, a military-industrial complex source told TASS.

    "The Russian Defense Ministry and the USC have agreed that the Northern Shipyard enterprise will carry out work on the helicopter carriers and the Leader destroyers. It is already conducting comprehensive reconstruction of its productive capacities, including the construction of a workshop to build ships of these classes," the source said.

    Well I hope the Russian helicarriers will actually have close in weapon systems that can hit things and won't just get re-programed to shoot each other down.... Oh wait you mean helicopter carriers.

    But they said that they will be building leader class destroyers time to watch PapaDragon GunshipDemocracy and the rest of the would be VTOL loby panic.

    Papadragon, Seig Soloivov, Militarov, JohninMK and other pro-US commenters are fairly panicking.

    They are saying nothing of value. Against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000 they argue that the State Armament Program will not include ships bigger than the Project 22350 (Gorshkov). But then we see news about heavy multirole landing ships, and they welcome the new and try to use it against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000.

    They are not able of articulating a coherent message.

    Agreed they arguements are copletely invalid.

    PS you forgot to mention GunshipDemocracy.

    I as an officer of the Soviet Interdimentional Command find the level of pro western insubordination on this forum disgusting.

    Ah typical type "You say things I don't like and don't agree with therefore you invalid"

    clinging to the "Soviet" title are we?.

    Just a fool holding onto the past then alright.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:47 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Ah typical type "You say things I don't like and don't agree with therefore you invalid"

    clinging to the "Soviet" title are we?.

    Just a fool holding onto the past then alright.


    Well well well if it isn,t the US oprative in Syria that comment is real cute just because you cannot see something from your distorted and limited perspective does not mean it isn,t there the Soviet Union is at the hight of its power and the only reason you pathetic earthlings still live on is that we have little time for old vendettas at this moment.

    Till next time I wsih you poor luck in you doging of Russian missiles and a not so pleasant time in hell.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:...............

    Well well well if it isn,t the US oprative in Syria that comment is real cute just because you cannot see something from your distorted and limited perspective does not mean it isn,t there the Soviet Union is at the hight of its power and the only reason you pathetic earthlings still live on is that we have little time for old vendettas at this moment.
    ...........

    Wait, so USSR is coming back?   lol1

    Didn't they voluntarily cease to exist? (only recorded case in human history of nation deciding to call it quits) lol1
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:03 am

    Didn't they voluntarily cease to exist? (only recorded case in human history of nation deciding to call it quits) lol1
    It was more than just a nation actually. It was an union. And it's certainly not the last one to end. Soviet UNION, european UNION, UNITED states of america ... those things that opress their people have no future. Actually it was good that it ended like that and they didn't suffer of a civil war only because their government actually cared about people and were totaly different from Staline and Staline's USSR.
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    Post  Guest on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:17 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    runaway wrote:Well it seems there will perhaps be helicopter carriers in the near future:

    MOSCOW, January 10. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry and the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) have agreed to start the construction of domestic helicopter carriers in 2020 at the Northern Shipyard, a military-industrial complex source told TASS.

    "The Russian Defense Ministry and the USC have agreed that the Northern Shipyard enterprise will carry out work on the helicopter carriers and the Leader destroyers. It is already conducting comprehensive reconstruction of its productive capacities, including the construction of a workshop to build ships of these classes," the source said.

    Well I hope the Russian helicarriers will actually have close in weapon systems that can hit things and won't just get re-programed to shoot each other down.... Oh wait you mean helicopter carriers.

    But they said that they will be building leader class destroyers time to watch PapaDragon GunshipDemocracy and the rest of the would be VTOL loby panic.

    Papadragon, Seig Soloivov, Militarov, JohninMK and other pro-US commenters are fairly panicking.

    They are saying nothing of value. Against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000 they argue that the State Armament Program will not include ships bigger than the Project 22350 (Gorshkov). But then we see news about heavy multirole landing ships, and they welcome the new and try to use it against the Project 23560 and the Project 23000.

    They are not able of articulating a coherent message.

    Agreed they arguements are copletely invalid.

    PS you forgot to mention GunshipDemocracy.

    I as an officer of the Soviet Interdimentional Command find the level of pro western insubordination on this forum disgusting.

    The difference between mine, and arguments of others is that i have some beside random links from random places on World Wide Web.

    And you cant belive the amount of fucks i dont give what you or eehnie think.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:19 am

    Isos wrote:
    Didn't they voluntarily cease to exist? (only recorded case in human history of nation deciding to call it quits)  lol1
    It was more than just a nation actually. It was an union. And it's certainly not the last one to end. Soviet UNION, european UNION, UNITED states of america ... those things that opress their people have no future. Actually it was good that it ended like that and they didn't suffer of a civil war only because their government actually cared about people and were totaly different from Staline and Staline's USSR.

    USSR was a union paper sure.

    USSR was no more bad than others sure......why don't you check the living standards back then and what not and actually look at how the USSR acted rather than taking the one from pro-Soviet peeps.

    It was the fact they gave a rats ass about their people that caused it's downfall. Boris would have never gained the mass support he did If they actually cared for their people.

    Sure you can blame him all you wish but the man needed the will of his people to do what he did without it he was just some nut job trying to do something insane.

    The only thing the USSR did well was making a military force aside from that it failed which is what lead to it's demise.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:30 am

    but still let us recap the next phase of the SAP states only super gorvs are being laid down.

    The plan which comes directly from the Kremlin there is no higher authority then this than the men who are INCHARGE of the RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

    so sorry to say people like Enhiee over there, the Russian government has spoken. This plan is to last until 2027, the second phase we are in for it.

    In terms of the Lider....the defense ministers of Russia you know a guy who would know? said the lider will not be laid down until 2030ish and this is supported by the SAP that was signed off by Russia's president Vladimir Putin.


    Geez....I wonder who would I trust the Russian Government and Putin....or some website on the internet oh geez you know it's a hard choice but I am going to have to go with the Russian Government......

    Russia cannot build a 17k warship in secret they do not have that capability. When everyone is watching them.

    Oh right they have secret space moon shipyard dock!
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    Post  eehnie on Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:39 am


    Unfortunately for you the first ship of the Project 23560 is to be laid down under the State Armament Program 2011-2020 and the first unit of the new aircraft carrier (likely of the Project 23000, the alone publicly known at this point), is likely to follow the same path, when the project is approved (before 2020) as said by the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015.

    The military doctrines of the different branches of the Russian federation are documents of superior cathegory than the State Armament Programs, in fact rule them, and also come from the Kremlin.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:09 am

    Been laid down alright......in lala land.

    That document is 2015 and times and plans have changed, as shown by the guys who made the 2015 document that you love to cite.

    Russia's president, Defense ministar and Government.

    Say you are wrong the fact you think otherwise....just dam shows how much drugs you must be on to say otherwise.
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    Post  eehnie on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:17 am

    You have to prove that the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 has been modified. This is not true. Even it would be ridiculous to change by the begin of 2018 a document signed in 2015 for a timeline that reachs 2050.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:24 am

    This has been proven already by the Russians themselves, you just refuse to admit it is all.

    Now buddy when Russia says "We have laid down the first Lider class ship"

    I will then say the statement holds water, until THEN. do not cite BS "oh this website says so, it must be true" crap.

    We clear?.

    Let me say this again

    "WHEN RUSSIA SAYS THE SHIP IS LAID DOWN THEN COME AND TALK TO ME"
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:12 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Unfortunately for you the first ship of the Project 23560 is to be laid down under the State Armament Program 2011-2020 and the first unit of the new aircraft carrier (likely of the Project 23000, the alone publicly known at this point), .......

    censored

    Tone it down you you will get a break Papa.
    GarryB
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    Post  eehnie on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:26 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    A friendly reminder to the would be VTOL lobby they never said that they would be developing VTOL

    Nah, they just suffered​ a stroke simultaneously and all said the same thing and everyone agreed because they like wasting time and money on stuff they won't be developing




    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    just as never said that the Orlov-Chesmensky was already laid down.

    I know they didn't, everyone does. Everyone except certain clown we have here. 



    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    And if you actually read my comments you would know that I believe eehnie is a little over optimistic and I do not believ we will see any large scale vessels comissioned before the mid to late 2020s but objectivity is clearly not on your agenda is it.

    Well that's a funny way of saying "full blown retard". lol1



    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    I do not believ we will see any large scale vessels comissioned before the mid to late 2020s but objectivity is clearly not on your agenda is it.

    As for anything larger than Super Gorshkov we won't be seeing anything before 2030s

    And worry not about my objectivity, it pretty solid, I don't fall for bullshit


    PapaDragon wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    Unfortunately for you the first ship of the Project 23560 is to be laid down under the State Armament Program 2011-2020 and the first unit of the new aircraft carrier (likely of the Project 23000, the alone publicly known at this point), .......


    censored ..


    My words agree with the source that I posted.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    Time for others to analyze the rest of your words.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7151-off-topic-bollocs#213362


    Last edited by eehnie on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:37 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    Unfortunately for you the first ship of the Project 23560 is to be laid down under the State Armament Program 2011-2020 and the first unit of the new aircraft carrier (likely of the Project 23000, the alone publicly known at this point), .......

    censored .

    Well atleast he does not think that VTOL is a cheap way to have naval aviation like some delutional individuals here.

    If a were incharge of the Russian navy and someone wanted to give me free F-35s I would shoot them there is just no excuse to collect impractical and maintenance heavy peices of scrap even if you get them for free.

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