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    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:14 am

    ..and will be used to transit from Pacific to Atlantic or back fairly quickly giving them access to most of the planet most efficiently.
    It's true for subs & some warships, but unless it's a wartime emergency/crisis & they need an extra CVN transferred between N. Pacific & N. Atlantic, I doubt it'll be necessary for their CVNs to use the NSR.
    The US can put pressure on Panama or Egypt to block the relevant canals..
    Panama Canal is still too narrow for even smaller Russian future CVN. But if/when a bigger 1 is built across Nicaragua, it'll add more flexibility.
    Helicopter operations are severely restricted in conditions of high cross winds... for fixed wing aircraft the carrier could simply turn in to the wind and use the high winds to its advantage.
    The Soviet TAKRs had dozens of helos & operated them on the high seas; they will turn into the wind for them too so there r no cross winds.
    At 36 metres long they might as well use the 40 metre long Mi-26 which is already operational..
    A shorter naval variant can be built; they won't have 20T payloads for COD missions most of the time- why risk sending an Mi-26 that may not even have enough room to safely land on, with all the other birds on deck?
    Payloads were 2 tons...
    Good point! It's a future prototype that may grow to bigger size & even may have 4 wings & 4 rotors. If not, using them in pairs & with mid-air refueling, together with a Ka-31s/Mi-38, will give C-2/E-2 like performance.
    The published images show: coaxial propellers of the [Russian] engines, which should increase efficiency with a short start from an aircraft carrier equipped with a springboard.
    https://pikabu.ru/story/antonov_motor_sich_i_yuzhmash_stanut_kitayskimi_brendami_5217634
    https://invoen.ru/vms/palubnaya-aviatsiya-kitaya/

    So, the fixed wing AWACS/COD planes may not need the CAT at all; as all the plans for proposed future Russian CVNs still have rumps.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:13 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:42 am

    It's true for subs & some warships, but unless it's a wartime emergency/crisis & they need an extra CVN transferred between N. Pacific & N. Atlantic, I doubt it'll be necessary for their CVNs to use the NSR.

    The point is that from the northern fleet base or the pacific fleet base they can reach most of the world that they need to reach, and both bases are large enough to allow expansion to allow moorings for such large ships and the support ships that will need to operate with them for them to function.

    Panama Canal is still too narrow for even smaller Russian future CVN. But if/when a bigger 1 is built across Nicaragua, it'll add more flexibility.

    Which makes basing in the northern fleet or pacific fleet bases and use of the NSR even more crucial... to accessing any part of the worlds oceans quickly.

    The Soviet TAKRs had dozens of helos & operated them on the high seas; they will turn into the wind for them too so there r no cross winds.

    You were talking about extreme weather conditions that will effect operations, now you are asking about why they didn't react like they were in storm conditions during normal operations with previous vessels... ummm perhaps because they are not retarded?

    Of course one of the huge advantages of the coaxial designs on the deck of a ship is that you can swing the nose around in any direction you like without swinging around a dangerous tail rotor that is probably the biggest killer of crew on decks in helicopter related incidents... coaxial rotor helos don't need to point in to the wind for stability and balance issues...

    A shorter naval variant can be built; they won't have 20T payloads for COD missions most of the time- why risk sending an Mi-26 that may not even have enough room to safely land on, with all the other birds on deck?

    It would be quicker and easier to make a much smaller Mi-26 with the same layout and engines but still much better performance than these theoretical designs and unproven designs.

    Good point! It's a future prototype that may grow to bigger size & even may have 4 wings & 4 rotors. If not, using them in pairs & with mid-air refueling, together with a Ka-31s/Mi-38, will give C-2/E-2 like performance.

    Why bother?

    A freaken Ka-52K has more payload than those designs and it already has a nose mounted AESA radar... a quick redesign that replaces the wings with side facing antenna arrays oriented at 120 degrees each so together with the nose mounted antenna offer 360 degree coverage without needing an above rotor rotating antenna, or below fuselage rotating antenna with electronic scanning in vertical and horizontal planes would be much quicker and cheaper and simpler... the front antenna is something like 120kgs so the side antenna would be the same so the rest of the payload of just over 2 tons could be extra fuel to improve endurance...

    So, the fixed wing AWACS/COD planes may not need the CAT at all; as all the plans for proposed future Russian CVNs still have rumps.

    A large aircraft like a Yak-44 or the US equivalent would not benefit from a ramp... their low power to weight ratio means they would not continue to accelerate up the ramp... they would probably actually lose a lot of speed so when they reached the edge they would more than likely just drop into the water.

    Think of the difference between a Olympic jumper using the ramp for extra height for their jump... it would improve their performance and make getting longer distances easier. For a 300kg overweight man however he will struggle to get up the ramp so any speed he might have gotten up to would be lost and if he got to the top he would just fall off into the water.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:43 pm

    Which makes basing in the northern fleet or pacific fleet bases and use of the NSR even more crucial... to accessing any part of the worlds oceans quickly.
    Basing 1-2 in the Black &/ Med. Seas would help that, as it's still too far away to the S. Atlantic/S. Pacific & the Indian Ocean from Kola & Kamchatka; getting there will take 2-3 weeks. In contrast, it took the CV-63 home ported in Yokosuka, Japan just a week to sail from Guam to the Arabian/Persian Gulf in 1998.
    A freaken Ka-52K has more payload than those designs..
    but not enough endurance. Can it patrol for 6 hrs over water 300km away from a CVN?
    It would be quicker and easier to make a much smaller Mi-26 with the same layout and engines but still much better performance than these theoretical designs and unproven designs.
    The joint RF-PRC project will produce such a cargo helo with 15T payload, but it won't be as good for COD due to it's size & conventional layout.
    https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d674e7a4d544f33457a6333566d54/index.html

    By the time they have a CVN, those tandem & side by side rotor helos/tilt-rotors will be past their theoretical and unproven stages, as they r needed in many other, non-naval specific applications.
    A large aircraft like a Yak-44 or the US equivalent would not benefit from a ramp... their low power to weight ratio means they would not continue to accelerate up the ramp..
    Then why put heavier engines with contra-rotating props on them?! That's what gives the AN-70 short field performance!


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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:34 am

    Basing 1-2 in the Black &/ Med. Seas would help that, as it's still too far away to the S. Atlantic/S.

    Tartus is nothing like the size needed to operate an entire carrier group from... it was a small workshop base that has been slightly upgraded to take more ships, but it is nothing like the size needed to dock six or more large ships needed for a carrier group.

    More importantly such a set up would be horribly vulnerable to attack by terrorists... such an attack would have little value for the anti assad syrians but the countries funding them like the US and Israel and Saudi Arabia would love to see such things damaged.

    Based in the Northern Fleet fairly quick and easy access via the GIUK gap can be achieved... who cares if NATO can track them through there it would really have little to do with them anyway and if they tried to actually stop them that would be justification for return fire which would pretty much cripple most of the EU so it probably wont happen.

    Pacific & the Indian Ocean from Kola & Kamchatka; getting there will take 2-3 weeks.

    Exercises will be planned years in advance, and even an emergency will take a few weeks to gather up resources anyway... depending on the situation a few ships can be sent ahead to stabilise the situation or provide a presence for the Russian government to have a say with follow up forces arriving later if muscle is required...

    Russia will never be in the position the US is in where it has carrier groups for each ocean ready to operate at short notice... it will be more like France or the UK who only have a few options and much longer preparation time.

    Obviously Intel services means it can anticipate situations and send a carrier to a hot spot with further destroyers and support ships to solidify its presence a bit later.

    As I have mentioned if it carries 90 aircraft max then it might travel around with half that, but when it arrives on station support ships wont be able to deliver AWACS and Su-57K fighters, but aviation fuel and ordinance for 90 aircraft which is the capacity of the ship, plus some extra stores that could be placed where the full compliment of the other 45 aircraft that are not on board means better persistence and performance because it will effectively have twice the fuel and weapon load for the aircraft it carries than it would normally have if it had a full load of aircraft.

    In the empty space where those 45 aircraft could have been they could carry a dozen Iskander TELs with 24 missiles plus perhaps 48 reloads, and with the INF treaty gone they could be 3,000km range models for use against targets ashore... soften up the air defence network of the country that is being visited for instance.

    Or they might take UAVs in place of those extra aircraft that they can send into enemy air space and monitor enemy air defences and reaction times and procedures...

    In contrast, it took the CV-63 home ported in Yokosuka, Japan just a week to sail from Guam to the Arabian/Persian Gulf in 1998.

    For the ground war in desert storm it took 6 months to form up a force... the point is that you can dictate the time table yourself with a carrier force... it can be a fire brigade or a siege engine...

    but not enough endurance. Can it patrol for 6 hrs over water 300km away from a CVN?

    A lightweight model that is all fuel and radar antennas could easily manage that sort of performance, but as I keep saying a fixed wing AWACS platform would do it better and cheaper and easier for longer...

    Inflight refuelling for a fixed wing aircraft is easier than for a helo... and yes I know the Americans have refuelling options for their large helos, but the Russians don't... refuelling a long endurance fixed wing aircraft is more efficient and easier and cheaper.

    The joint RF-PRC project will produce such a cargo helo with 15T payload, but it won't be as good for COD due to it's size & conventional layout.

    You would want a ground up custom designed aircraft for such a specialised role as AWACS and COD for a carrier... the project you mention probably wont even bother with folding main rotors because it would be an extra complication and expense that would not be used that much in a land based aircraft.

    And if you are going to be making a custom designed aircraft then adding wing lift and more efficient propulsion and you end up with a Yak-44 type aircraft.

    By the time they have a CVN, those tandem & side by side rotor helos/tilt-rotors will be past their theoretical and unproven stages, as they r needed in many other, non-naval specific applications.

    They might, but why spend money on them just in case? There is no fountain of money printing machine in Russia... you actually have to show some real benefits that justify the costs and the risks. VSTOLS are nice toys, but in practical terms if a more conventional model can do the job cheaper and easier and simpler then it is a no brainer choice.

    Then why put heavier engines with contra-rotating props on them?! That's what gives the AN-70 short field performance!

    During takeoff the whole point of the exercise is to accelerate the air flow over the wings to hold the weight of the aircraft.

    A MiG-29KR has a relatively big wing with lots of high lift devices and also rather powerful engines to rapidly accelerate the aircraft over a short distance... it can use the ramp to loft it up into the air when it looses the support of the carrier deck to improve its ability to get airborne.

    For a bigger heavier much less powerful aircraft like the Yak-44 having a ramp makes its takeoff performance worse because it is much heavier but has much less power so climbing up a ramp slows it down at a time when it needs to be rapidly accelerating to get to a speed above its stall speed.

    For the MiG the ramp is like a jump at the end of its run, and it improves its ability to get airborne and to start climbing, for a Yak-44 a ramp is like tripping and slowing down just before it falls into the water.

    The Yak-44 could be fitted with the jet engines of the An-124 and have enormous thrust for takeoff but the size and weight and fuel consumption and drag means it will need to land or be refuelled within a few minutes of takeoff because its normal fuel load will be replaced by a fuel guzzling engine.

    Contra rotating propellers like the Bear or An-70 require a lot more power to turn so you need much bigger much more powerful engines to use those.

    In fact with the Bear a normal four blade propeller would need to be huge to absorb the enormous power of the engines so having 8 blades in a contra propeller arrangement is a good way to prevent the blade tips from moving supersonically and losing propulsive thrust in use.

    Very simply bigger more powerful engines will reduce the range and endurance of the aircraft which is a bad thing.

    There is no perfect solution... rocket boosters are dangerous to things on the deck during takeoff and solid rocket fuel is expensive and you would be limited in your AWACS and heavy aircraft operations by how many rockets you could carry.

    EMALS, if you can get it working, offers the best all round solution... you can say that the US has struggled with it, but then they have also struggled with hypersonic weapons... I am sure funding for both will be boosted to help sort out problems, though such a solution is not always what is needed...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:29 am

    Russia will never be in the position the US is in where it has carrier groups for each ocean ready to operate at short notice...
    That's where history & geography come together. The Russian Empire/Federation is contiguous, w/o overseas colonies/territories, unlike the USA. If in the past Russians had SLOCs, markets, or strategic/geopolitical interests to defend outside of their perimeter, like now in Syria, they would've established their own Guam & Diego Garcia a long time ago. They sold Alaska which was not essential to their economy, unsustainable as a colony, & hard to defend.
    They could forward deploy a CBG in Venezuela should there be an economic/political need for it; from there, it could sail around S. America/Africa to get to the Pac./Indian Oceans or via the Nicaraguan Canal if it'll ever gets built. That will save trips on the NSR & across the 2 largest oceans for the NF & PF CVNs.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm

    CH-47 update: https://www.janes.com/article/89250/paris-air-show-2019-boeing-to-demo-ch-53k-engine-on-chinook

    “Some say it is an expensive helicopter but it is also a pretty cheap C-130 [fixed-wing transport aircraft]. If you want an aircraft that does both then this is what you need.”
    https://www.janes.com/article/89253/paris-air-show-2019-boeing-warns-last-chance-to-buy-v-22

    Substitute a C-130 for An-12/26/72s in the Russian context.
    http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2019-06-13/5_1048_an12.html?print=Y

    They will build a more capable tilt/tandem rotor aircraft, as with the Soviet helicopters & cargo planes. Many benefits of having them outweigh the bigger losses incurred of not having them, multiplied by the RF geography, terrain, & weather.
    The naval/marine/army/NG/CG/FSB/MChS/civil aviation will benefit from them in many ways.


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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:43 am


    That's where history & geography come together. The Russian Empire/Federation is contiguous, w/o overseas colonies/territories, unlike the USA. If in the past Russians had SLOCs, markets, or strategic/geopolitical interests to defend outside of their perimeter, like now in Syria, they would've established their own Guam & Diego Garcia a long time ago. They sold Alaska which was not essential to their economy, unsustainable as a colony, & hard to defend.
    They could forward deploy a CBG in Venezuela should there be an economic/political need for it; from there, it could sail around S. America/Africa to get to the Pac./Indian Oceans or via the Nicaraguan Canal if it'll ever gets built. That will save trips on the NSR & across the 2 largest oceans for the NF & PF CVNs.

    That is the problem with your logic... saving trips on the NSR is not something they care about... they want countries to use the NSR... that is the purpose of the NSR... to bypass the longer slower routes... why would they then spend a small fortune to then base their major naval vessels in Venezuela?

    Probably Cuba or Vietnam could be places they could send ships, but forward deployed for what?

    They wont be sending out carrier groups to fight WWIII... more likely they will be moving them to the Arctic ocean and northern Pacific ocean to protect its own flanks and cover its out going strategic weapons with further cover from ground based aircraft like MiG-31s and Backfires with Kinzhal and Kh-32 and variants.

    “Some say it is an expensive helicopter but it is also a pretty cheap C-130 [fixed-wing transport aircraft]. If you want an aircraft that does both then this is what you need.”

    They already have Mi-26s which are even better.

    They will build a more capable tilt/tandem rotor aircraft, as with the Soviet helicopters & cargo planes. Many benefits of having them outweigh the bigger losses incurred of not having them, multiplied by the RF geography, terrain, & weather.
    The naval/marine/army/NG/CG/FSB/MChS/civil aviation will benefit from them in many ways.

    They can talk all they want but right now conventional aircraft do the job much better than rotary aircraft and much cheaper operational costs too... not to mention much safer. Where vertical take offs are needed they already have helicopters that are better than Chinooks and are working on high speed helicopter designs that should lead to new rotor and engine technology that can be retrofited to older models in service to further improve performance without having to build brand new designs.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:57 pm

    ..more likely they will be moving them to the Arctic ocean and northern Pacific ocean to protect its own flanks and cover its out going strategic weapons with further cover from ground based aircraft like MiG-31s and Backfires with Kinzhal and Kh-32 and variants.
    Then, basing them on Kola & Kamchatka in the right #s will eliminate the need to transfer them on the NSR, dedicating icebreakers & presenting big targets to hostile subs.
    They already have Mi-26s which are even better.
    It's like having An-12s & Il-76s or C-17s & C-130Js with nothing in between.
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t4312p375-russian-transport-aircraft-fleet-vta#258337

    Cheaper, smaller helos/tilt-rotors can be built in larger #s, incl. for export, & will need less fuel & maintenance with smaller airframes & engines. Otherwise, China could've ordered/license build 20T payload Mi-26s instead of developing a 15T payload helo jointly with Russia.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:00 am

    Then, basing them on Kola & Kamchatka in the right #s will eliminate the need to transfer them on the NSR, dedicating icebreakers & presenting big targets to hostile subs.

    What are the right numbers though... right now it is a no brainer because there are not carriers, but when the Kuznestov is back at sea do you base her at Kola or Kamchatka... and whichever you choose does that mean they can't send it through the NSR to go the other way?

    For instance the Kuznetsov based in Kola and there is an issue in Quito in Equador where they want to send help because they are under threat from US supported terrorists from US controlled Columbia... it would obviously sail through the NSR down into the Pacific Ocean and then across to Equador.

    Or they decide to send a carrier group on a good will visit to Dunedin New Zealand to reward an agent they have there for his sterling service with flights on two seat MiG-29KRs and discussions on what Russia needs for its Naval Future..... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil welcome


    The point is that even if you had two carriers if one is in overhaul or is at sea and not at base... which is common and something happens that it can attend then the other has to make that journey and no one can block the NSR for them... and talk of hostile subs is amusing... were US carrier groups worried about being sunk off the coast of the US on their way to Vietnam by Soviet subs?

    If US or British or French subs want to start something by sinking a Russian Sub... they have plenty of targets for Russian air power and submarines too... is that really a game they want to start playing?

    It's like having An-12s & Il-76s or C-17s & C-130Js with nothing in between.

    Having an aircraft platform for every niche size is not efficient... a bit like the tool box of a computer engineer... he will have a long handled and a short handled phillips screwdriver... he wont have 20 different sizes in flat head and phillips types because he has no use for them...

    Helicopters are specific shorter range high cost platforms used in situations where there are no established airfields because it is cheaper to use a helo in the mountains of Afghanistan than it is to build airfields in country that is largely vertical anyway... they are much more expensive to buy and operate than fixed wing transports, but sometimes they are the best option.

    An example would be to transport people to and from an oil rig out in the middle of the sea... no air port, and not thousands of kms... probably just 100km or perhaps 300km but not further.

    Cheaper, smaller helos/tilt-rotors can be built in larger #s, incl. for export, & will need less fuel & maintenance with smaller airframes & engines.

    Helos are not flight efficient aircraft... what they do is rather unique but they are orders of magnitude more expensive to operate than a fixed wing aircraft... they are also generally fairly high maintenance... A tilt rotor is a hybrid between helos and fixed wing types and offer better performance than a helo, but vertical takeoff and landing over the fixed wing aircraft... but where there are airfields at each end of the trip a fixed wing aircraft will always be faster, longer ranged, and cheaper and much more efficient... and also safer simply because vertical takeoff and landing means landing and taking off anywhere... which has its own dangers...

    Otherwise, China could've ordered/license build 20T payload Mi-26s instead of developing a 15T payload helo jointly with Russia.

    Sounds like they want to build a helo they can call their own and they have a very specific requirement for it. That does not mean Russia needs another new aircraft in a different payload capacity... they have Mi-38s and Mi-26s and in the smaller category a range of smaller lighter aircraft.

    Countries don't pull payload weights out of their ass... the Il-76 could carry 40 tons originally because that is about the weight of their tanks... the An-124 could carry 120 tons because they were supposed to carry three MBTs, and An-22s could carry 80 tons so they could carry two tanks.

    The C-17 has a large payload capacity because US tanks are heavy.

    Do you think it is an accident that the An-12 and the Mi-26 both can carry 20 ton payloads?

    Do you think it would be useful to be able to carry those 20 ton payloads long range in a cheap propeller driven aircraft or to take it from where it is... whereever it is and take it anywhere and land it anywhere? Like from the side of a mountain in Afghanistan where it was shot down to somewhere the US could recover it and take it away in pieces with their smaller lighter aircraft that can't operate hot and high in Afghanistan with those sort of loads?

    Now isn't that strange... there were plenty of photos of the Mi-26 rescuing those Chinooks but there are no photos of it on the wiki page for the Mi-26 or the Chinook... like it never happened... talk about propaganda...

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:16 am

    ..no one can block the NSR for them... and talk of hostile subs is amusing... were US carrier groups worried about being sunk off the coast of the US on their way to Vietnam by Soviet subs?
    Occasionally, esp. in winter/spring, even the current nuclear icebreakers can get stuck in the East Siberian/Chukchi Sea; the Bering Strait can be mined from subs & B-52s. A cargo ship/tanker can also wait there & ram a CV/N, with plausible deniability- go prove it was intentional by the Pentagon!
    ..they are much more expensive to buy and operate than fixed wing transports, but sometimes they are the best option.
    An example would be to transport people to and from an oil rig out in the middle of the sea... no air port, and not thousands of kms... probably just 100km or perhaps 300km but not further.
    They r building/expanding air fields in the North, but there r many road, etc. projects with no air strips for 100s of miles from nearest airbase/port. Those sparsely populated areas have no roads, & it's not feasible to build/maintain airfields capable of fixed wing ops there. They still use the older Mi-6/8/10/17s, besides Mi-26s, to move people & supplies there. Like those helos, tilt/tandem rotors (which r good in cross winds) r dual use & the gov. forces/entities will get them 1st anyway; after that, civilian companies will, like in Canada & the US. Their higher operating cost is still lower than the costs of building of new airstrips, hangars, planes, training & hiring more pilots/crews, housing, & everything else that goes with them.
    15-25% larger than CH-47 size helos will perform a lot better than coaxial Ka-27M/29TB/31s in ASW/SAR/AWACS (with bigger radar)/Marine/SF assault + can be used as COD:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-27#Specifications_(Ka-27)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-31#Specifications_(Ka-31)

    It'll also surpass the civil Ka-32A, which is used as ..passenger and cargo transport, a flying crane for building construction, transport for bulky cargo up to 5t carried on an external sling, logging, search and rescue, medical and emergency evacuation, loading and unloading ships at sea and offshore operations. ..The Ka-32 can fly at a maximum speed of 260km/h. Its cruise speed is 240km/h. The range of the helicopter [is] 1,135km [vs. the CH-47 315 km/h, 296 km/h & 2,252km].
    https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/kamov32/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH-47_Chinook#Specifications_(CH-47F)


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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:04 pm

    StormКМ:
    https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3161974

    Construction of the 1st helicopter carrier (UDK) of the RF will begin in 2021
    http://www.ng.ru/news/650906.html?print=Y
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:05 am

    Occasionally, esp. in winter/spring, even the current nuclear icebreakers can get stuck in the East Siberian/Chukchi Sea; the Bering Strait can be mined from subs & B-52s.

    You are not understanding what I am saying... the US can't make the ice too thick for Russian icebreakers to operate and anyway by 2030 there probably wont be much ice anyway. Mining international waterways is an act of war and after several european cargo ships taking the NSR are sunk by US mines and mine hunters are sent in to find the problem and it is modern US mines they will have to explain it to their allies what they were doing... US subs laying mines in international water ways during peace time means open season on sinking US subs for self preservation, and B-52s detected dropping mines could be shot down on sight for the same reason.

    A cargo ship/tanker can also wait there & ram a CV/N, with plausible deniability- go prove it was intentional by the Pentagon!

    Sinking such vessels would be very straight forward... after appropriate warnings of course.

    And if given orders to ram I doubt they will take the wrap on their own without squealing.

    They r building/expanding air fields in the North, but there r many road, etc. projects with no air strips for 100s of miles from nearest airbase/port.

    I think you are confusing Russia with Afghanistan... finding flat open areas in Russia where you remove big rocks and flatten hollows in the ground over an area a km long is not actually that difficult and most of their transport aircraft can operate from fairly rough strips of ground.

    Most important areas will have proper paved air strips... villages of reigndeer herders move around the place but they are tiny collections of people that could easily be serviced by an An-2 that can pretty much land most places anyway.

    Drop a few people off and take a few people away and some skins for sale and it is plenty.

    Those sparsely populated areas have no roads, & it's not feasible to build/maintain airfields capable of fixed wing ops there. They still use the older Mi-6/8/10/17s, besides Mi-26s, to move people & supplies there. Like those helos, tilt/tandem rotors (which r good in cross winds) r dual use & the gov. forces/entities will get them 1st anyway; after that, civilian companies will, like in Canada & the US. Their higher operating cost is still lower than the costs of building of new airstrips, hangars, planes, training & hiring more pilots/crews, housing, & everything else that goes with them.

    Anything worth a damn.... like a gas field or a mine will require a lot of people and make a proper airstrip by far the best option most of the time. There is money to be made in that region and you don't save money by not spending money... rail lines and air fields end up saving money because things can be transported in and out much faster and much easier and much cheaper than using slow helicopter links.

    15-25% larger than CH-47 size helos will perform a lot better than coaxial Ka-27M/29TB/31s in ASW/SAR/AWACS (with bigger radar)/Marine/SF assault + can be used as COD

    And a more conventional design similar to the Yak-44 but more modern would be much much better still... and cheaper in the long term.

    It'll also surpass the civil Ka-32A, which is used as ..passenger and cargo transport, a flying crane for building construction, transport for bulky cargo up to 5t carried on an external sling, logging, search and rescue, medical and emergency evacuation, loading and unloading ships at sea and offshore operations. ..The Ka-32 can fly at a maximum speed of 260km/h. Its cruise speed is 240km/h. The range of the helicopter [is] 1,135km [vs. the CH-47 315 km/h, 296 km/h & 2,252km].

    I have spoken to a guy that operated Ka-32s in the north island of New Zealand.... they were using them for selective milling so they could pick particular trees for felling and removal without having to build roads and basically clear fell the whole forest. He said the Ka-32 was the best helicopter he had ever flown. He said it handled like a Hughes 500 and accelerated rapidly and was very manouverable even with a full external load... he loved it...

    It was a commercial operation... they could as easily have hired a Chinook for the job.

    A Chinook would take an enormous amount of space inside a carrier... you might as well have the extra performance (range, speed, payload) of a fixed wing aircraft.

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    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:33 pm

    I have found an interesting aircraft that could be used as a carrier based AWACS/Refueler/Elint aircraft. It's the sukhoi-80. Very interesting design. And it is designed as STOL aircraft so it is already optimzed for short runways like on kuznetsov.


    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 38 280px-10

    Wikipedia wrote:Crew: 2
    Capacity: 30
    Length: 18.26 m (59 ft 10 in)
    Wingspan: 23.18 m (76 ft 4 in)
    Height: 5.74 m (18 ft 8 in)
    Wing area: 44.36 m² (477 ft²)
    Empty weight: 8,350 kg (18,408 lb)
    Max. takeoff weight: 14,200 kg (31,305 lb)
    Powerplant: 2 × General Electric CT7-9B turboprop, 1,305 kW (1,750 hp) each
    Performance

    Never exceed speed: 575 km/h (358 mph; 311 kn)
    Maximum speed: 470 km/h (292 mph; 254 kn)
    Cruise speed: 430 km/h (267 mph; 232 kn)
    Range: 1,300 km (810 mi; 700 nmi) with 30 passengers
    Service ceiling: 8,000 m (25,000 ft)
    Takeoff run: 830 m
    Landing run: 530 m
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:26 pm

    Isos wrote:I have found an interesting aircraft that could be used as a carrier based AWACS/Refueler/Elint aircraft. It's the sukhoi-80. Very interesting design. And it is designed as STOL aircraft so it is already optimzed for short runways like on kuznetsov.


    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 38 280px-10

    Wikipedia wrote:Crew: 2
    Capacity: 30
    Length: 18.26 m (59 ft 10 in)
    Wingspan: 23.18 m (76 ft 4 in)
    Height: 5.74 m (18 ft 8 in)
    Wing area: 44.36 m² (477 ft²)
    Empty weight: 8,350 kg (18,408 lb)
    Max. takeoff weight: 14,200 kg (31,305 lb)
    Powerplant: 2 × General Electric CT7-9B turboprop, 1,305 kW (1,750 hp) each
    Performance

    Never exceed speed: 575 km/h (358 mph; 311 kn)
    Maximum speed: 470 km/h (292 mph; 254 kn)
    Cruise speed: 430 km/h (267 mph; 232 kn)
    Range: 1,300 km (810 mi; 700 nmi) with 30 passengers
    Service ceiling: 8,000 m (25,000 ft)
    Takeoff run: 830 m
    Landing run: 530 m
    interesting, but maybe a bit small. I would prefer to see the Yak-44 concept being restarted, since it was already conceived for carrier use
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:..the US can't make the ice too thick for Russian icebreakers to operate and anyway by 2030 there probably wont be much ice anyway.
    Mining international waterways is an act of war and after several european cargo ships taking the NSR are sunk by US mines...
    That E. Arctic area may still have thick ice/icebergs- at a time the CVN may need to transit there. Not worth the risk IMO! They'll know beforehand that a CVN is coming & warn civ. shipping to stay away.
    Sinking such vessels would be very straight forward... after appropriate warnings of course.
    a big ship takes a long time to stop, even after it gets hit.
    ..finding flat open areas in Russia where you remove big rocks and flatten hollows in the ground over an area a km long is not actually that difficult and most of their transport aircraft can operate from fairly rough strips of ground.
    The permafrost & snow/icing conditions req. frequent repairs & clearing ops.
    rail lines and air fields end up saving money because things can be transported in and out much faster and much easier and much cheaper than using slow helicopter links.
    they take years to build- the AYM road, started on/off in 1975/85, from BAM to Yakutsk is supposed to open for passenger traffic only this summer:
    http://www.nemiga.info/rossiya/amuro-yakutskaya_magistral.htm
    http://www.ng.ru/economics/2018-10-17/4_7334_yakutia.html?print=Y
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/10/23/ayam/  https://777hawk.livejournal.com/2186936.html
    https://territoryengineering.ru/proekty/amuro-yakutskaya-magistral-klyuch-k-osushhestvleniyu-vazhnejshih-proektov-xxi-veka/
     
    And a more conventional design similar to the Yak-44 but more modern would be much much better still... and cheaper in the long term.
    It'll need the expensive CAT, extra maintenance & personnel.
    It was a commercial operation... they could as easily have hired a Chinook for the job.
    NZ isn't Siberia/RFE.
    A Chinook would take an enormous amount of space inside a carrier...
    They'll only be brought inside for repairs, won't be deployed in big #s on flight decks, & will replace SAR/ASW/AWACS helos, so the size/performance trade off is worth it IMO. They could also be based on other ships, if need be. A tanker could be modified with a hangar carrying fuel & spare parts will free up a lot of space. If they r going to send an ocean tug along anyway, it could also tow a medium/large barge with a dozen of them.
    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 38 D51f05-Image_2

    https://www.alamy.com/stock-image-171116-n-om854-038-strait-of-juan-de-fuca-nov-16-2017-a-ch-47-chinook-165911114.html

    http://www.clker.com/clipart-42126.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:48 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:26 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    And a more conventional design similar to the Yak-44 but more modern would be much much better still... and cheaper in the long term.
    It'll need the expensive CAT, extra maintenance & personnel.

    I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the Yak-44 was designed to operate both from a catapult and from the sky jump of the kuznetov.

    Afterall they were supposed to have two quite powerful d-27 propfan engines (maybe the Yak-44M will have PD-12 derivative turboprop or propfan).


    Last edited by Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:33 pm

    I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the Yak-44 was designed to operate both from a catapult and from the sky jump of the kuznetov.

    Afterall they were supposed to have two quite powerful d-27 propfan engine (maybe the Yak-44M will have PD-12 derivative turboprop or propfan).

    It was stated in wikipedia and with no source IIRC.

    Yakk 44 was designed for Ulyanovsk carrier which was started and was designed with catapults. Any new russian carrier will be equiped with catapults. RuN has clearly expressed that.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:11 pm

    Isos wrote:
    I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the Yak-44 was designed to operate both from a catapult and from the sky jump of the kuznetov.

    Afterall they were supposed to have two quite powerful d-27 propfan engine (maybe the Yak-44M will have PD-12 derivative turboprop or propfan).

    It was stated in wikipedia and with no source IIRC.

    Yakk 44 was designed for Ulyanovsk carrier which was started and was designed with catapults. Any new russian carrier will be equiped with catapults. RuN has clearly expressed that.

    Wikipedia mentioned this book as the source

    https://www.amazon.de/OKB-Yakovlev-History-Design-Aircraft/dp/1857802039

    OKB Yakovlev: A History of the Design Bureau and Its Aircraft (Yefim Gordon, Dmitri Kommissarov, Sergei Kommissarov).


    Anyway, I agree that the next carrier will have catapults, but it's always practical if they can also take- off from the ski-jump


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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:23 pm

    The 4 Yak-44s may take more space than proposed large tandem-rotor helo, which can have 4-5 variants- ASW/SAR/AWACS/Marine assault/COD, while  the Yak-44 only 2: AWACS & COD. IMO, a lot of $ can be saved by not fielding them.
    Also, they could be made amphibious (& replace/augment the Mi-14, unlike the Yak-44.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_helicopter#Limited_water_capability
    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 38 Ch-46-flight-test-photographic-lab-boeing-company-vertol-division-DYXTY0
    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 38 16450903468_58c0724b69_b
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:36 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The 4 Yak-44s may take more space than proposed large tandem-rotor helo, which can have 4-5 variants- ASW/SAR/AWACS/Marine assault/COD, while  the Yak-44 only 2: AWACS & COD. IMO, a lot of $ can be saved by not fielding them.
    Also, they could be made amphibious (& replace/[url=https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%
    Too bad that a yak-44 would have more then twice the speed and 6 times the range of a chinook.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:40 pm

    The Russian helo will be a lot more capable than the CH-47, so it shouldn't be used as a yardstick.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Russian helo will be a lot more capable than the CH-47, so it shouldn't be used as a yardstick.

    Any improvement on the helicopter range can be re-used for the yak-44 making the later still the vest option.

    However the amphibious version is really interesting for ASW as they could sit on the water and deploy their sonar without using fuel. Should be used from a a dedicated ASW helicopter carrier.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:56 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Russian helo will be a lot more capable than the CH-47, so it shouldn't be used as a yardstick.
    Yeah but Russia has already a very good modern marine assault attack helicopter, the ka-52k, and it's already developing new ASR helicopter based on a coaxial rotor design.

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-05-17/new-russian-naval-helicopter-previewed?amp

    Why should now abandon them for a different (and less efficient) design?

    Edit:sorry the I misread what you wrote. Of course the ka52 is an attack, not an assault transport (troop carrying).
    Current assault transport helicopter is the ka-29 (variant of the Ka-27)(that is being modernised, while they wait for the replacement to be ready).



    The capabilities of a turboprop or propfan aircraft like the yak-44 will be.instead perfect to complement the capabilities of russian navy helicopters (ka52k and ka-27/29 or replacements), as they cover different roles.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:32 am

    Frankly, I don't see any indication whatsoever of any work being restarted on he Yak-44. AFAIK, they r not dusting off its blueprints; knowing that it usually takes them longer than expected, they should've done it "yesterday", if their plans r as u all envision them to be.
    Btw, China started testing a radar for her own E-2 counterpart a few years ago, & now is getting ready the plane itself:
    https://americanmilitarynews.com/2018/08/china-secretly-building-its-copy-of-us-navys-e-2-hawkeye-says-will-be-a-game-changer/

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/more-hints-about-beijings-aircraft-carrier-ambitio-458339/

    https://topwar.ru/134575-kitay-stroit-samolet-dlya-obnaruzheniya-stels-samoletov-protivnika.html

    http://www.sohu.com/a/322017519_100007345

    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 38 AZDEOTHSENZKXEZPWFPD2R7GZE

    I'm sure they'll have it by the time their 1st CATOBAR CV-18 sails.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:50 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Frankly, I don't see any indication whatsoever of any work being restarted on he Yak-44. AFAIK, they r not dusting off its blueprints; knowing that it usually takes them longer than expected, they should've done it "yesterday", if their plans r as u all envision them to be.
    if they plan to build a real carrier, then they will need that kind of aircraft, even if they would not go for the same aircraft. I thought about that aircraft because it was a project developed in the Russian SSR (and not in the Ukrainian SSR) and because they should have the full documentation for it and no IP right issue. Starting from that (and modernising it) could save a few years in development. If they start now with the design work, preproduction and testing of the aircraft could be finished by the time the new carrier is leaving the shipyards for the long phase of acceptance tests.

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