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    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:07 pm

    Rocket assisted vertical take off, with zero runway.
    And yes, that is not landing.

    I know but it's not the subject here. We are talkin about VTOL which means Vertical Take Off and Landing. The landing needs to be Vertical too if you want you aircraft to be VTOL class...

    that's not rocket assisted take off, not VTOL like F-35 or Yak 141

    I meant it is rocket assisted !! Sorry for the mistake. And yes you still need a runway for landing while for true VTOL you don't need.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:58 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Rocket assisted vertical take off, with zero runway.
    And yes, that is not landing.

    I know but it's not the subject here. We are talkin about VTOL which means Vertical Take Off and Landing. The landing needs to be Vertical too if you want you aircraft to be VTOL class...

    that's not rocket assisted take off, not VTOL like F-35 or Yak 141

    I meant it is rocket assisted !! Sorry for the mistake. And yes you still need a runway for landing while for true VTOL you don't need.

    These stuff was vertical take off.

    It was a solid booster strapped to the bottom of the aircraft, to the centre of gravity. So the aircraft take off vertically, and become airborne in few seconds.

    It was better than the F-35 or Harrier, because any aircraft can be launched like this from anywhere.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:39 am

    Then you will need to discuss again the price and the ability of Russians to build true carrier and we will have the same discussion as we can found in every thread of this part of the forum. Not my intension.

    Part of the problem is that everyone wants solutions now.

    Russia has no use for four medium carriers right now... it does not have the port facilities nor the support ships needed to operate two or three carrier groups.

    They will need time to put together a properly balanced fleet, with two new helicopter landing ships in the water by 2022-4 and maybe operational 2-3 years later they will have the core of two carrier groups so a second fixed wing carrier class could be started in 2020 to be ready by 2025 for initial trials and testing together with the Kuznetsov as their two fixed wing carriers.

    My idea as you understood is to add the speed of fighter in small numbers to power-up your forces for a very small price and for somme situtation, clearly not WW3. At the end true carrier is of course better than a small ship lunching a few fighters maybe 4 time every day.

    You get what you pay for... if you could do it cheaper the UK would already be doing it.

    I gotta say Garry you definitely seem exceptionally critical of VTOL aircraft and they do have dodgy track record but these are not 70s. Technology moved on.

    Not really. To save a small amount by building a 20K ton ship instead of a 40-60k ton ship is actually very limiting.

    Taking the British example, if the Argentines had had access to better IR guided missiles the British would have been in the shit. More importantly if the Argentines even just had access to medium fighters with BVR missiles the British would have been in real trouble.

    Even MiG-23s with R-24R and R-24T AAMs, which would not have been state of the art at the time, the British would have been in serious trouble... a Harrier is a horrible IR target... for most aircraft the direct rear portion makes for an easier shot but with a Harrier every angle except directly from the front is dangerous.

    A MiG-29 with R-73s would have massacred the British.

    As I have mentioned, I don't like VSTOL aircraft... they are a one trick pony and for that trick they are expensive, complicated, delicate, and prone to terminal crashes...

    For a small extra cost you can use a proper sized carrier with better range and better capacity and aircraft that are not unique to the navy.

    The Yak-38 was tested in Afghanistan as a CAS and it was found to be a poor option... expensive, fragile, prone to damage.

    Sure the Yak was not the best example of VSTOL aircraft, but its problems are shared by all VSTOL aircraft... there are none that have solved them... even the VTOL F-35 is what is making the F-35 a poor performer... and more expensive than it needs to be.

    It could be a stealthy F-16... instead it is a stealthy Buccaneer... while will likely make it a useful strike aircraft, but a crap light fighter.... and that is half the job.

    Fact is that Russia is building these helicopter​ carriers and they will be in production and use. That is their primary purpose.

    Agreed. But the idea of making a few extra that can haul other loads like MiG-29s makes sense too... but restarting the Yak line of VSTOLs would be counter to the whole concept of a cheap support for a full carrier that carries extra airframes to make up numbers without being expensive.


    Now, to theorize, we know that UAE have ordered new light 5th gen fighter jet. If it ends up having standard configuration then there will be no effect on this topic.

    But in stealth mode a light stealth fighter should have excess thrust to make takeoffs from ships a piece of cake as low drag internal weapons storage and light air to air weapon load means little take off weight requirement...

    However if UAE ended up being less than frugal and decided to go for VTOL config then it will mean that Russia will have both:

    The UAE have no carriers... so VTOL makes no sense for them... on land VSTOL aircraft are a total failure.

    And those two roles are pretty much only reason Russia has for acquiring aircraft carriers.

    Those two requirements don't just go away if UAE does not want a jack of all trades fighter...

    The russians are talking about a CAT system for their new design carriers... it would be a total waste on a helicopter carrier but refitting it on the K could allow a heavier tanker aircraft to be carried that could top up aircraft taking off from the smaller carriers as they take off with full weapon loads...

    the addition of a EM CAT system on K would mean heavy AWACS type to be developed... a cargo plane and a tanker on the same airframe would make sense but would reduce the number of deployed aircraft on the K... the extra carriers become rather more useful and sensible to support operations.

    UAE are not going to be field aircraft carriers of any sort. So why would they need VTOL?

    Agreed... VTOL adds weight and complexity... most of which is deadweight in normal flight. It also makes the aircraft horribly vulnerable to damage/faults.

    Skyjump is more efficient the VTOL.

    Skijumps allow aircraft to get airborne easier from shorter takeoff runs. Thrust vectoring also helps a lot even on no VSTOL aircraft.

    With VTOL you don't need airfield anymore. You can operate them anywhere and lunch them from basicly anywhere.

    That was the sales pitch for Harrier... but in actual practise it was a pain in the ass... anything that was not concrete needed pierced steel planking for takeoffs, which shows up on radar. The idea they could take off from shopping mall carparks is nice but all the rubbish they ingest on takeoff they don't last very long operationally.

    With the introduction of hypersonic and very low observable cruise missiles, airfield are more and more in danger. I know there is little to no chance they go for VTOL but who knows.

    Actually even with modern very capable weapons it is still easier to repair a runway than disperse all your resources all over the place. Note your air defence unit protecting your base wont disperse like your aircraft so they will operate without air defences...


    VTOL didn't improve a lot. For F-35 US bought legally Yak-141 plans and technical data so it's still 70's 80's technology. Russian stop research since then. There isn't successor to Harrier.

    Don't get me wrong... I find the Yak-141 impressive, as is the Harrier for what they are, but the amount of investment needed to make them useful... you can fit a bigger better radar and more weapons in a MiG-29K and operate it from bigger sized ships with more aircraft on board.

    The MiGs are faster, longer ranged, cheaper, and more effective... and also used by the Air Force.

    I meant it is rocket assisted !! Sorry for the mistake. And yes you still need a runway for landing while for true VTOL you don't need.

    Landing is actually the easy part... arrester wires will pretty much land anything... it is the getting airborne that is the issue.

    Again for the Russians the solution will be different from the west because they want fighters, not bombers/strike aircraft.

    Fighters already have a high thrust to weight ratio, good lift, low max weight... AAMs are light payload stuff.

    Harriers and F-35s wont land vertically or take off vertically unless there is something wrong. More conventional takeoffs and landings use a lot less fuel and are actually safer.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:10 pm

    Russia is not getting two new Helio carriers in the water by 2024. I'd be shocked if they can get one in the water by that time. Maybe by 2028 sure.

    Say what you want here but their build speed speaks for it's self and no Icebreakers aren't warships.

    Russia cannot build a 60k Carrier like the Kuz in five years.....you are REALLY high balling these numbers. I get the whole optimistic angle but be realistic.

    Don't get me wrong, I second carrier like the Kuz makes more sense for Russia.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:32 am

    The Kuznetsov was a Soviet design and not really a model for future designs.

    The next fixed wing carrier needs to be nuke propelled, and needs to use a modular design to use the modules developed for all new Russian ships.

    This will make upgrades easier and cheaper and simpler.

    You are entitled to your own opinion regarding future vessels for the Russian navy... the French generously handed over all the details and technology for their Mistral class ships and allowed Russia to build half of them and then refunded their money and sold the ships to Egypt and now Russia is selling the Russian components for the ships to Egypt... so Russia got its money back and is selling aircraft and equipment to Egypt.

    Incorporating the design features of the Mistral in their new design should speed up the design phase and the modular building process used to produce half of the Mistrals they built in Russia should lead to speedy production.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:38 pm

    Russia is developing hypersonic weapons and vertical takeoff aircraft


    https://iz.ru/674713/2017-11-23/rossiia-razrabatyvaet-giperzvukovoe-oruzhie-i-samolet-vertikalnogo-vzleta

    Russia is developing hypersonic weapons, this issue was discussed at meetings with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Also, work is underway to create a vertical takeoff aircraft.

    This was reported by Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov, noting that these developments are taken into account in the draft new state arms program.

    So VTOL and aircraft carrying cruisers ?
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:12 pm

    The article seems a little odd, but that could just be the translation.
    But if true, then F, what a waist, looks like we're going back to the Kiev-class. No

    Garry is gonna be pissed.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:31 am

    Total waste of money and time.... VSTOL jet fixed wing aircraft as we know them are total pieces of rubbish.

    Limited performance, super fragile, super expensive, high loss rate for no real return except being able to make cheaper limited aircraft carriers that don't really stack up against decent modern aircraft.

    Total waste of time and money.

    The hope they might develop a design that fixes all the problems is tiny because their problems are enormous.... high pressure piping of air to the wing tips, nose and tail to enable a stable hover means lots of extra weight and complexity and of course vulnerability to damage or failure.

    The best thing they ever did was scale up to the K with conventional fixed wing aircraft also used by the Air Force.

    The Russian AF has no use for crappy short range expensive slow VSTOL aircraft.... even a basic generic MiG-29 shaped airframe with the radar and engine you put into the VSTOL aircraft will have better performance and be much cheaper and much safer.

    There was a famous photographer of aircraft a while back... he unfortunately died and I can't remember his name but the two seater of theYak-38M is the one aircraft he refused to fly in.... It did not have a high kill rate for its pilots but it had a high crash rate the pilots being saved by the automatic ejection system...
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    Post  Isos on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:09 am

    The most weird is that a longer flight deck with a ski jump isn t expensive to build and they can upgrade easily mig 29k or design a new 5th generation mig based on mig 29k.

    I don t understand what they really want. They say they are planing a 100 kt supercarrier but also a vstol fighter which are made for really small carrier. They want one thing and its opposite.
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:39 am

    Isos wrote:The most weird is that a longer flight deck with a ski jump isn t expensive to build and they can upgrade easily mig 29k or design a new 5th generation mig based on mig 29k.

    I don t understand what they really want. They say they are planing a 100 kt supercarrier but also a vstol fighter which are made for really small carrier. They want one thing and its opposite.

    It's really a mystery to me as well.

    First they said that they're going to develop a naval PAK-FA with the MiG-29K used as a stopgap in the meantime and Su-33s to be withdrawn.
    Then they wanted to put the Kuznetsov into deep modernization.
    Then they said they wanted to build some new carriers with catapults and all the rest of it.
    Then they said they'll keep the Su-33s after all and upgrade them, to provide a long-range air defence envelope.
    It's nearly 2018 and the Kuznetsov is still not undergoing that deep modernization.
    Somewhere in the midst of all this they developed the Ka-52K and started talking about helicopter carriers to replace the lost Mistrals, and about how versatile the Ka-52K can be including for anti-ship duties.
    And now they're talking about VTOL aircraft and carriers.

    The only way this VTOL stuff would make sense is if they bin the navalization of the PAK-FA, bin the modernization of the Kuznetsov (let it serve out 10 more years and then withdraw it), bin the idea of the helicopter carriers - and just use the VTOL aircraft and carriers to fulfill all these functions instead whether air-defence for the fleet, land-assault operations or anti-ship missions.
    In this way it would actually be a cost effective move.
    Different question is whether a VTOL aircraft would be able to fulfill all those functions acceptably. That's the engineering challenge.

    Or maybe it's all just a ploy to confuse NATO analysts.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:01 pm

    flamming_python wrote:...............

    The only way this VTOL stuff would make sense is if they bin the navalization of the PAK-FA, bin the modernization of the Kuznetsov (let it serve out 10 more years and then withdraw it), bin the idea of the helicopter carriers - and just use the VTOL aircraft and carriers to fulfill all these functions instead whether air-defence for the fleet, land-assault operations or anti-ship missions.
    In this way it would actually be a cost effective move.
    Different question is whether a VTOL aircraft would be able to fulfill all those functions acceptably. That's the engineering challenge.
    ...................

    I think that is precisely what they are going for. USS Wasp/America-class style ship that will do both jobs depending on aircraft complement at the time.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:45 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:...............

    The only way this VTOL stuff would make sense is if they bin the navalization of the PAK-FA, bin the modernization of the Kuznetsov (let it serve out 10 more years and then withdraw it), bin the idea of the helicopter carriers - and just use the VTOL aircraft and carriers to fulfill all these functions instead whether air-defence for the fleet, land-assault operations or anti-ship missions.
    In this way it would actually be a cost effective move.
    Different question is whether a VTOL aircraft would be able to fulfill all those functions acceptably. That's the engineering challenge.
    ...................

    I think that is precisely what they are going for. USS Wasp/America-class style ship that will do both jobs depending on aircraft complement at the time.

    Looks like US Marines/Spanish/UK and Italian navies opted for as Garry says mediocre expensive, fighters F-35 in STOVL version... Russian as well. Looks like some advantages are there.



    Chronologically there were announced by Russian top brass:

    1. We consider big AC 100,000 displacement and small about 30,000 tons displacement. Possibly unified with Liders (ekhm I guess this was referring to power reactors...)

    2. We restart vertical start fighter production for navy

    3. There could be Vgen fighter project coo-financed by UAE

    4. We are gonna build Aircraft Cruisers but by end of new program (i.e. ~2025) because first we need to have vertical take off fighter. (very recent interview with Bondarev)


    On Yak-43 (land based version -Efim Gordon as source in Wiki) they considered NK-32... and now surprise NK-32 is alive and kicking in new version.

    5. If you look at Ulyanovsk class drawings you can see then all missile launchers are vertical. If RuN is going for Aircraft Cruiser option my educated guess would be they use UKSK-M embedded in deck.



    BTW schema of group start for Yak-141s.
    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/yak141.html


    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 2 Yak141-5




    But of course life will tell . Only speculations.



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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:59 pm

    NK-32 would be ideal engine for the the jump jet. Huge engine though.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:09 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:NK-32 would be ideal engine for the the jump jet.  Huge engine though.

    If you compare F-35 STOVL engine PW with KH there are not so much differences...IMHO goo dsignt Kh-32 can go to Tu-160M2, PAK DA, Tu-22M3M and new ?Yak Smile))



    Specifications (F135-PW-600)[edit]
    Data from F135engine.com[44]
    General characteristics
    Type: Afterburning Turbofan with shaft driven remote lift fan
    Length: 369 in (937.3 cm)
    Diameter: 46 in (116.8 cm) maximum, 43 in (109.2 cm) fan inlet, 53 in (134.6 cm) lift fan inlet
    Dry weight:

    Performance
    Maximum thrust: 41,000 lbf (182 kN) max, 27,000 lbf (120 kN) intermediate, 40,650 lbf (180.8 kN) hover


    NK-32
    General characteristics
    Type: Three-spool low-bypass afterburning turbofan
    Length: 6,000 mm (20 ft)[4]
    Diameter: 1,460 mm (4.79 ft)[4]
    Dry weight: 3,400 kg (7,500 lb)[4]
    Components
    Compressor: 3-stage LP (fan), 5-stage IP, 7-stage HP
    Combustors: annular
    Turbine: 1-stage HP, 1-stage IP, 2-stage LP
    Performance
    Maximum thrust: Cruise thrust: 14 000 kgf (31,000 lbf, 137 kN)[5] Afterburning thrust: 25 000 kgf (55,000 lbf, 245 kN) [5]
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:27 am

    The obvious problems are its length... it is 6 metres long... so six metres behind where its front fans are there is 25 tons of thrust pushing down... what are you going to put up the front to balance that sort of force? Another one?

    The engine itself weigh 3.5 tons... what are they going to mount in the front that can match its lift and doesn't add another 3.5 tons of weight?

    The Tu-160 is an expensive aircraft to run... it burns through a lot of fuel per hour... even if the fuel consumption is dramatically reduced it is still going to need a huge amount of fuel to get any decent flight range...

    In comparison a cat assisted takeoff and arrested landing and you put this engine into an aircraft and it is going to be a very fast medium to heavy fighter.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:55 am

    GarryB wrote:The obvious problems are its length... it is 6 metres long... so six metres behind where its front fans are there is 25 tons of thrust pushing down... what are you going to put up the front to balance that sort of force? Another one?


    similar to F-35 with one engine ? after wiki

    " The Lift System is composed of a lift fan, drive shaft, two roll posts and a "Three Bearing Swivel Module" (3BSM).[66] The 3BSM is a thrust vectoring nozzle which allows the main engine exhaust to be deflected downward at the tail of the aircraft. The lift fan is near the front of the aircraft and provides a counterbalancing thrust using two counter-rotating blisks.[67] It is powered by the engine's low-pressure (LP) turbine via a drive shaft and gearbox. Roll control during slow flight is achieved by diverting unheated engine bypass air through wing-mounted thrust nozzles called Roll Posts.[68][69]"



    GarryB wrote:

    The Tu-160 is an expensive aircraft to run... it burns through a lot of fuel per hour... even if the fuel consumption is dramatically reduced it is still going to need a huge amount of fuel to get any decent flight range...


    Garry Garry Garry, you're such a pessimist Cool Cool Cool

    NK-32 (before update model)
    Specific fuel consumption: (supersonic) 48g/kN/hour[6](subsonic): 0.72-0.73 kg/kgf/hour[6]

    For F-35 I've found something like 0,88 lb/lbf/hr but at thgsi time I am not going to calculate this respekt respekt respekt






    GarryB wrote:
    In comparison a cat assisted takeoff and arrested landing and you put this engine into an aircraft and it is going to be a very fast medium to heavy fighter.

    Heh I am not saying thet CATOBAR is bad but so fat I am still big fan of VTOL/STOVL fighters Smile

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:17 am

    The VSTOL fighter is a one trick pony that creates more problems than it solves.

    You end up with carriers that are too small to be useful for anything, with light weak aircraft that are as fragile as anything and not really more useful than a much simpler conventional aircraft.

    CATOBAR means normal aircraft but also much more capable AWACS support which is worth is weight in gold.

    BTW with 14 tons of dry thrust and 25 tons of max thrust that means at these power settings the aircraft.. even with no other lift engines as such will be burning

    0.72kgs of fuel per kg of thrust per hour... so at 14 tons dry thrust that is 10 tons of fuel per hour of flight in dry thrust.

    Use that afterburner and 18 tons of fuel get burned every single hour... how big is this fighter going to be?

    How do you feel about VSTOL elephants?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:54 am

    GarryB wrote:The VSTOL fighter is a one trick pony that creates more problems than it solves.
    How do you feel about VSTOL elephants?

    F-35 engine/ NK 32 length comparison

    NK-32
    Length: 6,000 mm (20 ft)[4]

    F-35STVOL/CATOBAR
    Length: 369 in (937.3 cm) / Length: 220 in (559 cm)

    If F-35 is an elephant then yes I am talking about one.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:48 am

    Still a dog.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:Still a dog.

    Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:58 am

    I am not saying with a lot of clever design choices that they can't make an adequate design... but I think they would be much better off not thinking about a tiny carrier with dinky little VSTOL aircraft... a medium sized carrier offers better endurance and a larger air fleet and when fitted with EM cats it can operate medium AWACS types that would greatly improve the situational awareness of the fleet, especially against low flying threats.

    Low flying cruise missiles are especially potent against targets on land because the land is not flat so there are lots of blind spots you can take advantage of when planning the attack route.

    At sea there are no mountains except near land or islands, but without carriers there is no air based radars so the problem is with the radar horizon.

    A carrier with AWACS capabilities means you can operate airborne radars that don't have blind spots against low flying threats and can see much further without giving away the location of the carrier and ships it is operating with, yet can pass information to those ships so they are not operating in the dark.
    They can also manage a group of interceptors and manage an interception so you get the best out of the air group you have.

    The enemy wont know how many ships you have, just that you have an AWACS aircraft so you have at least one carrier... everything else can operate radio silent so actually finding your SAG is not that easy and when you get within range with a full scale attack the entire fleet and all the fighters can light up and start taking you down.... not when you cross the radar horizon of the biggest ship... when you are in range of the AWACS aircraft that might be 500km away from the carrier and cruisers.

    It is a simple fact that once the carrier is paid for it is the SAG and operational costs that matter and a medium carrier wont cost that much more than a light carrier but will carry more aircraft and more ordinance and equipment and create a much bigger umbrella over the ships or subs.
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:23 pm

    1- First this is how the modern real Russian VTOL aircrafts are:

    http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/press/news/vr_konvertoplan_2019/
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russianhelicopters.aero%2Fru%2Fpress%2Fnews%2Fvr_konvertoplan_2019%2F

    https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8/1027612/na_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Flife.ru%2Ft%2F%25D0%25BD%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2F1027612%2Fna_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30

    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 2 95ed71a0323326d1c78a5f2e8f052dc6__1440x



    2.- Second, the article posted assumes the future production of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201712151060040750-new-russian-vtol-aircraft-analysis/

    In the meantime, the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030. By that time, the Navy expects to receive two new Priboy-class universal helicopter-carrying amphibious assault ships. These, it can be safely assumed, would be perfectly capable of carrying any new VTOL project the aircraft industry throws their way.

    I do not think the timeline would be right, but this reference to the Project 23000, the alone real project of aircraft carrier living today in Russia, is the most realistict comment of the article.



    3.- Finally, in the descriptions of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier we can find how a VTOL aircraft fits with the ship:

    http://www.deagel.com/Fighting-Ships/Project-23000E_a003273001.aspx

    The ship will carry 100 aircraft including the navalized version of the T-50 PAK FA stealth fighter, Mig-29Ks and Yak-44 early warning and control aircraft.

    Very likely the bolded in red are the 2 new aircrafts Bondarev is talking about these days. Obviously and logically, the fighter aircraft to replace all the current shipborne fighters will be the Su-57 (T-50). The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft. The MiG-29 is of a previous generation.

    https://tacairnet.com/2015/07/20/could-the-yak-44-make-a-comeback-for-russias-next-carrier/

    While Russia anticipates fulfilling the fighter/attack and utility roles with its current aviation projects, its AEW&C capabilities are very anemic. At the moment, the Russian Navy uses Kamov Ka-31 Helixes to fulfill the AEW&C role- essentially refitted coaxial helicopters that carry a large rotating/folding radar antenna underneath the fuselage. While the Helix does actually perform somewhat as needed while deployed aboard the Kuznetsov, it just doesn’t live up to the mark set by fixed-wing AEW&C aircraft like the E-2C/D Hawkeye, currently in shipboard use with the United States Navy and the French Navy. A limited range and a very limited onboard sensor suite are two of the Helix’s biggest flaws. Therefore, Russia if builds a better carrier than the one they have right now, they’re going to need better AEW&C aircraft too. The article in IHS Jane’s did state that Russia expects to build a jet-powered airborne early warning aircraft. However, an AEW&C jet would, in comparison with a turboprop version, likely necessitate heavier maintenance, fly with a reduced range and, in general, just cost a heck of a lot more. So it might actually make more sense for Russia to consider building the propeller-powered alternative instead, and luckily for them, in designing a brand new AEW&C plane, they can call upon the scrapped Yak-44 project.

    In this quote we can see how some media identified this new project with the Yak-44. Like que Yak-141, the Yak-44 was a project cancelled with the fall of the Soviet Union, but like in the case of the Yak-141 some media identified the project of a new early warning and control aircraft with the Yak-44 project because this was also the role of the old project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-44

    For the following years, a new early warning and control aircraft (in fact a shipborne maritime patrol aircraft) design would be totally different. It can be VTOL and it can be unmanned. The words of Bondarev about a new VTOL plane following the Yak like make sense, but not like the media is taking them.

    A new Russian VTOL early warning and control aircraft can emerge in the future following this line of the most modern VTOL aircrafts that Russia is designing now.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
    eehnie
    eehnie

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    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Supercarrier = white elephant for Russia, just like Kuznetzov is now. Naval budget will not be growing and neither will importance of surface fleet in Russian naval doctrine.

    This was the funniest part   lol1  lol1

    See here, see here, when a What a Face is caught:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2631p600-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-1#191117

    I thought we agreed we were going to lay off that stuff...

    Do I have to ban some people?
    GarryB
    PapaDragon
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    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 2 Empty Re: RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:37 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Supercarrier = white elephant for Russia, just like Kuznetzov is now. Naval budget will not be growing and neither will importance of surface fleet in Russian naval doctrine.

    This was the funniest part   lol1  lol1

    See here, see here, when a liar intoxicator is caught:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2631p600-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-1#191117

    censored

    Not very classy.... do you need a ban break too?

    Careful how you both respond... you are clearly both pissed off, but I am really not in the mood.
    GarryB
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:46 pm

    lol1  lol1  lol1 enjoy, enjoy the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015:

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russias-new-maritime-doctrine.391893/

    Surface fleet

    In the first phase Russia's Admiral Gorshkov-class (Project 22350) frigates and Steregushchy-class (Project 20380) corvettes and their variants will become the core of the surface force for long- and short-range operations.

    In the mid term a new-generation destroyer featuring advanced strike, air defence and missile defence capabilities will become the navy's main oceangoing ship. Between 2021 and 2030 a new class of modular multirole surface combat ship will be designed and enter series production as the successor to the Project 22350/20380 classes. It is envisaged that these will be armed with novel weapon systems and will carry unmanned vehicles of various sorts.

    The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability, along with multirole landing ships. Work to design a new class of Russian aircraft carrier is to be completed before 2020, with construction and entry into service planned for the second phase of the doctrine (2021-2030).

    Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.




    and enjoy very much how the Russian Maritime doctrine is becoming real in the real projects:



    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2897p425-russian-naval-aviation-news#211801

    eehnie wrote:1- First this is how the modern real Russian VTOL aircrafts are:

    http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/press/news/vr_konvertoplan_2019/
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russianhelicopters.aero%2Fru%2Fpress%2Fnews%2Fvr_konvertoplan_2019%2F

    https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8/1027612/na_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Flife.ru%2Ft%2F%25D0%25BD%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2F1027612%2Fna_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30

    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 2 95ed71a0323326d1c78a5f2e8f052dc6__1440x



    2.- Second, the article posted assumes the future production of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201712151060040750-new-russian-vtol-aircraft-analysis/

    In the meantime, the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030. By that time, the Navy expects to receive two new Priboy-class universal helicopter-carrying amphibious assault ships. These, it can be safely assumed, would be perfectly capable of carrying any new VTOL project the aircraft industry throws their way.

    I do not think the timeline would be right, but this reference to the Project 23000, the alone real project of aircraft carrier living today in Russia, is the most realistict comment of the article.



    3.- Finally, in the descriptions of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier we can find how a VTOL aircraft fits with the ship:

    http://www.deagel.com/Fighting-Ships/Project-23000E_a003273001.aspx

    The ship will carry 100 aircraft including the navalized version of the T-50 PAK FA stealth fighter, Mig-29Ks and Yak-44 early warning and control aircraft.

    Very likely the bolded in red are the 2 new aircrafts Bondarev is talking about these days. Obviously and logically, the fighter aircraft to replace all the current shipborne fighters will be the Su-57 (T-50). The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft. The MiG-29 is of a previous generation.

    https://tacairnet.com/2015/07/20/could-the-yak-44-make-a-comeback-for-russias-next-carrier/

    While Russia anticipates fulfilling the fighter/attack and utility roles with its current aviation projects, its AEW&C capabilities are very anemic. At the moment, the Russian Navy uses Kamov Ka-31 Helixes to fulfill the AEW&C role- essentially refitted coaxial helicopters that carry a large rotating/folding radar antenna underneath the fuselage. While the Helix does actually perform somewhat as needed while deployed aboard the Kuznetsov, it just doesn’t live up to the mark set by fixed-wing AEW&C aircraft like the E-2C/D Hawkeye, currently in shipboard use with the United States Navy and the French Navy. A limited range and a very limited onboard sensor suite are two of the Helix’s biggest flaws. Therefore, Russia if builds a better carrier than the one they have right now, they’re going to need better AEW&C aircraft too. The article in IHS Jane’s did state that Russia expects to build a jet-powered airborne early warning aircraft. However, an AEW&C jet would, in comparison with a turboprop version, likely necessitate heavier maintenance, fly with a reduced range and, in general, just cost a heck of a lot more. So it might actually make more sense for Russia to consider building the propeller-powered alternative instead, and luckily for them, in designing a brand new AEW&C plane, they can call upon the scrapped Yak-44 project.

    In this quote we can see how some media identified this new project with the Yak-44. Like que Yak-141, the Yak-44 was a project cancelled with the fall of the Soviet Union, but like in the case of the Yak-141 some media identified the project of a new early warning and control aircraft with the Yak-44 project because this was also the role of the old project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-44

    For the following years, a new early warning and control aircraft (in fact a shipborne maritime patrol aircraft) design would be totally different. It can be VTOL and it can be unmanned. The words of Bondarev about a new VTOL plane following the Yak like make sense, but not like the media is taking them.

    A new Russian VTOL early warning and control aircraft can emerge in the future following this line of the most modern VTOL aircrafts that Russia is designing now.

    Note that now you can read in the Russian Maritime Doctrine even how the timeline for the entry into service of the first aircraft carrier by 2030 makes unlikely a laid down after 2025.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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