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    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:38 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:


    Regardless if one likes it (me) or not (GarryB at fist place Smile this is already budgeted in the new Goszakazplan so we'll see it live in less then 10 years. :-)

    As for VTOL qualities, landing space is I guess first requirement (Arctic, fleet, short runways in case of war). As for radar or speed. Who needs now speed? look at Rafale, Hornet or F-35 they are not even 2Ma. Range of speed same as in Yak-141 frm 80s. Radar? who told you that now VTOL has to have worse radar? vide F-35B.


    Being budgeted doesn't mean it will be developed and inducted in service.
    History is full of project that NEVER made to the operational status, some being aborted still on the drawing  boards.


    Precisely which one? Yak-38? F-35 or Yak-141?



    Peŕrier wrote:
    Second, everybody is entitled to his own opinion on Russia's defence spending, but it is just a fact that the Kremlin and various State's bodies have an interest to keep most if not all of its military industrial base alive.

    A challenging project, even if not really meant to reach serial production, could be a nice trick to both keep some bureau afloat, give him a glimp of confidence about his future and hone his technological skills.


    Perhaps one of the reasons. Exactly the same in US France (no fighter production at all ) or Germany.




    Peŕrier wrote:
    I still do not believe we will see any, I mean any, operational combat aircraft with VTOL capabilities.
    There is a simple reason behind this skepticism: a combat aircraft is supposed to survive when confronted by opponents combat aircrafts.

    It require electronic on par, performances on par, pilot's training on par, tactics on par, C3I on par.
    Remove one of the above, and you will struggle to maintain overall parity.
    Remove two or more, and you will end on the losing side.
    A VTOL aircraft has a big penalty in the hardware required for vertical take offs and landings, both on weight and in volumes.

    We do not talk about Yak-38 or Sea Harrier but now? like which of elments F-35 is missing? is is not operational, really?






    Peŕrier wrote:

    There is no chance a VTOL could have same range, same electronics, same payload of a CTOL aircraft having same technological level and MTOW.

    If that wouldn't be true, it would be like somebody carrying an Anvil on his back could have same sport performances of when free of any ballast.

    It is simply not true, baĺlast is and wiĺl always be a penalty.
    Moreover, Russia has not a dozen big LHD or LHA to deploy some meaningful number of VTOL aircrafts.


    but also has many short runways in potential war zones near its borders besides who told you Russia is not planning to build one? it was stated : first fighter then ship.



    Peŕrier wrote:
    The U.S. have at least the excuse behind the F-35B, by the way a STOVL, not  a VTOL aircraft, of around a dozen LHD and LHA,  plus a couple of British STOVL carriers and at least one Italian pocket STOVL carrier.

    With the U.S. ship's displacing around 45K tons, the British carriers more than 60K tons, and only the Italian one close to the 30k tons mark.

    Russia could have, at best, three flat tops around 30K tons, neither so large nor very big.

    It's debatable if a ship around 30K tons could operate more than 8 - 10 aircrafts. Actually, if an amphibious one, it will be able to operate no more than 5 or 6.

    We dont know what Russia can have because there is no plan to build big or small. First is not size but function and geographical specifics. For patrolling far north to protect SSBNs, helping in local wars/cisises, landing with troops?







    At best, there will be around a couple dozens aircrafts embarked at any time, but actually there will be more likely less than 20, because an amphibious ship has no enough space and facilities to support a meaningful number of combat aircrafts.


    Unfortunately reality proved you're wrong compare

    Spanish Juan Carlos I
    Notes:
    Aircraft composition: Pure combat: 25 AV-8B/F-35B + 6 flight deck parking spots (31 fighters STOVL right?)
    Mix: 11 AV-8B + 12 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots
    Pure transport: 25 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots

    Displacement: 26,000 tonnes

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Juan_Carlos_I




    The British, having realized that, acted at the contrary: they have developed a purpose built STOVL carrier, centered around a requirement for around 40 STOVL fighters, then expanded the project to be able to act as a LHA when needed. That way, they ended designing two ship's displacing more than 60K tons, and still when acting as an LHA the carriers will have to get rid of most of the aircrafts, to make room to assault helicopters.

    and what's wrong with that? let's not fight wars form the past. New carriers will have different ways of fighting. With Zircons, drones UAV/UCAVs and underwater, air-wing might have different tasks then in US carrier fleet.

    Pls note Russia is in foreseeable future focusing on Sea Denial not Sea Control strategy. Different strategies different tools to do the job.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:51 am

    Isos wrote:VTOL would be great for naval drones. They weight far less than fighter and they don't need payload just a small radar or a camera.


    RuN Carriers and deck aviation future discussion - Page 5 Wp_20150827_14_43_41_pro__highres

    Like that? oops there is in making Smile


    The universal killer: Russian UCAV is going to surpass Western analogs


    https://riafan.ru/895781-universalnyi-ubiica-udarnyi-bpla-vks-rf-zatknet-za-poyas-zapadnye-analogi
    An unmanned aircraft with a variable thrust vector can appear in Russia in 2023. This in an interview with RIA Novosti said the head of the Center for Advanced Studies, deputy director of the company "Kronstadt" Vladimir Voronov . It will be a universal device capable of both destroying the enemy's living force and equipment and delivering the necessary cargoes to the battlefield, said Oleg Ponomarenko , a military expert at the Center for Strategic Situations .

    It is reported that the Russian percussion UAV will be created on the basis of the already existing dredge Fregat. At the same time, the first version of the military unmanned vehicle will be a two-ton model.

    "If there is an engine, we can create a two-tone first and pick it up in three years. It can be used not only as a scout and percussion, but also as a transport vehicle. In a semitone with payload, one ton range can be three thousand kilometers. For a helicopter and an incomprehensible distance. It will take another three years to produce it, "the representative of the center said.


    ok ok iknow translation sucks Smile

    faboys' pic below Smile

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    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:00 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:VTOL would be great for naval drones. They weight far less than fighter and they don't need payload just a small radar or a camera.

    Like that? oops there is in making Smile


    The universal killer: Russian UCAV is going to surpass Western analogs


    https://riafan.ru/895781-universalnyi-ubiica-udarnyi-bpla-vks-rf-zatknet-za-poyas-zapadnye-analogi
    An unmanned aircraft with a variable thrust vector can appear in Russia in 2023. This in an interview with RIA Novosti said the head of the Center for Advanced Studies, deputy director of the company "Kronstadt" Vladimir Voronov . It will be a universal device capable of both destroying the enemy's living force and equipment and delivering the necessary cargoes to the battlefield, said Oleg Ponomarenko , a military expert at the Center for Strategic Situations .

    It is reported that the Russian percussion UAV will be created on the basis of the already existing dredge Fregat. At the same time, the first version of the military unmanned vehicle will be a two-ton model.

    "If there is an engine, we can create a two-tone first and pick it up in three years. It can be used not only as a scout and percussion, but also as a transport vehicle. In a semitone with payload, one ton range can be three thousand kilometers. For a helicopter and an incomprehensible distance. It will take another three years to produce it, "the representative of the center said.


    ok ok iknow translation sucks Smile

    faboys' pic below Smile

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    Looks like a workable scaled model, but this is definitely what i was talking about for a VTOL UCAV, with this i don't see any reason for a full VTOL aircraft anymore.
    The investment is just a waist at this point.
    Unless one believes that dogfights are history and long range missiles will decide it all, i for one just don't see a VTOL being fitted with an Irbis class radar.
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    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:06 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Precisely which one? Yak-38? F-35 or Yak-141?


    All of the VTOL prototypes and Yak-38 as well. F-35B is NOT a VTOL fighter, whatever people would like to say. It's a STOVL, and the Harrier as well, despite being conceived as a VTOL, became a STOVL because  if employed as a VTOL had almost no useful payload.






    Peŕrier wrote:
    I still do not believe we will see any, I mean any, operational combat aircraft with VTOL capabilities.
    There is a simple reason behind this skepticism: a combat aircraft is supposed to survive when confronted by opponents combat aircrafts.

    It require electronic on par, performances on par, pilot's training on par, tactics on par, C3I on par.
    Remove one of the above, and you will struggle to maintain overall parity.
    Remove two or more, and you will end on the losing side.
    A VTOL aircraft has a big penalty in the hardware required for vertical take offs and landings, both on weight and in volumes.

    We do not talk about Yak-38 or Sea Harrier but now? like which of elments  F-35 is missing? is is not operational, really?






    GunshipDemocracy wrote:


    but also has many short runways in potential war zones near its borders besides who told you Russia is not planning to build one? it was stated : first fighter then ship.


    So RuAF is going to induct  in service a combat aircraft it would never be able to support outside a logistic network? Highly doubtful. By the way you just switched from VTOL to speak of STOL (short take off and landing) a whole different beast.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    We dont know what Russia can have because there is no plan to build big or small. First is not size but function and geographical specifics. For patrolling far north to protect SSBNs, helping in local wars/cisises, landing with troops?


    It's the Mod itself speaking of a future class of LHDs displacing around 30K tons, to be built in three exemplares, so that is at the moment what is planned for



    GunshipDemocracy wrote:


    Unfortunately reality proved you're wrong compare

    Spanish Juan Carlos I
    Notes:
    Aircraft composition: Pure combat: 25 AV-8B/F-35B + 6 flight deck parking spots (31 fighters STOVL right?)
    Mix: 11 AV-8B + 12 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots
    Pure transport: 25 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots

    Displacement: 26,000 tonnes

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Juan_Carlos_I

    No, you just proved yourself to not having understood reality of carrier's flight operation.

    Juan Carlos I could transport, only transport 25 aircrafts, because the hangar would crowded as a truck trailer at full load. It would not possible to lift to the bridge other aircrafts than that beside the lift itself, it would not possible to bring any aircraft in the hangar other than to the parking spot right to the lift itself.

    Have a look at the graphic simulations published by Spanish MoD: they are a chest thumbing exercise only, and it is plainly apparent. During actual operations, Juan Carlos would be lucky if able to operate half of those numbers, otherwise it will became a ferry, not an aircraft carrier.
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    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:21 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    They MiG-29 had same radar Zhuk and  avionics so not true. Yak was to have also  HUD display in 80s...  Smile really so bad ? pls note there is a difference of over 20 years in both fighters' design.



    Never update of  Yak-141M was to be Yak-43 (just checked Yefim Gordon's book about Yak fighters) with Kuznetsow NK-32 engine... and stealth. Gordon writes looking F-22 alike (who knows maybe now time to update design :-)




    Yak 41M

    Flight characteristics [ edit ] | edit the code ]
    Maximum speed :
    at an altitude of 11 km: 1800 km / h ( M = 1.7)
    at the ground: 1250 km / h (1.05 M)
    Practical range:
    with GDP without load:
    at an altitude of 10-12 km: 1400 km
    off the land: 650 km
    at the OHR with a load of 1 t:
    at an altitude of 10-12 km: 2100 km
    At the ground: 1010 km
    Practical ceiling : 15 000 m
    Battle radius: up to 900 km



    MiG 29k

    Performance
    Maximum speed:
    At high altitude: Mach 2+ (2,200 km/h, 1,370 mph)
    At low altitude: Mach 1.13 (1,400 km/h; 870 mph)
    Cruise speed: Mach 1.21 (1,500 km/h; 930 mph)

    Range:
    At high altitude: 1,500 km (930 mi; 810 nmi)
    At low altitude: 700 km (435 mi; 380 nmi)
    Combat radius: 850 km (528 mi; 459 nmi)

    Ferry range:
    Clean: 2,000 km (1,240 mi; 1,080 nmi)
    With 3 drop tanks: 3,000 km (1,860 mi; 1,620 nmi)
    With 3 drop tanks and one aerial refueling: 5,500 km (3,420 mi; 2,970 nmi)
    Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,400 ft)

    No, the Yak-141 had a scaled down version of Zhuk to save weight and volume (surprise!).

    And MTOW was 19.500 Kg when performing short take offs with a ski jump, the same way Su-33 and Mig-29K perform take offs on-board of Kuznetsov.

    If taking off vertically (as in VTOL meaning) MTOW was reduced to 15800 Kg, leaving only 4 tons available for fuel AND ordnance. Because internal fuel capacity was a little more than 4 tons, either it had no range at all and could take off vertically with a serious payload, or it had almost full range but no payload at all.

    It was not able to take off vertically with full fuel load, because in such configuration it was already exceeding vertical take off's MTOW.

    So to provide almost the same performances of a Mig-29K, a Yak-141 had to operate just as a Mig-29K, making the two auxiliary turbojet and the swiveling nozzle just a baĺlast.

    It is not by chance that Yak-141 was ditched and Mig-29K development was pursued instead.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:13 am

    It's simply not true that a VTOL aircraft like Harrier or F-35B will melt the asphalt of streets away! It's a fact that in high summer in addition the heat of the fans will make the asphalt like warm wax, so maybe the aircraft will sink in partially a bit and of course damaging the street.

    Yak-41 damaged the airfield at Farnborough in a hover... not a vertical takeoff because they didn't even attempt one of them... it was just a low altitude hover...

    The Harrier does not have an Afterburner...

    A supersonic VTOL aircraft needs one.

    Uhm, Garry, this is from the Afghanistan history thread by archangelski.

    I know... I remember... at the time they were saying VTOL aircraft were going to be the only operational aircraft in WWIII because all the airfields will be destroyed in the first seconds of war.

    The Yak-38M went up against what we now know as the Su-25 in the CAS role... the unarmoured Yak was found out... weak payload, short range, no armour, and very vulnerable to ground fire and not able to take off from most strips in real combat because of the FOD issues... they were useless and it was found out and rejected.

    So none of navies buying F-35B know what they are doing? British, Spanish, Italian and recently Japanese? All top brass has no idea that STOVL sucks?

    They are trying to save money by buying small ships... who cares these days of the British, Spanish, Italians or Japs have ineffectual carriers... when are they going to need them? Who would they need them against?

    le petite différence then USSR ceased to exist. Not because anything was wrong with fighters. Russia unlikely ceases to exist in 2018-2025

    Russia is likely to start expanding its interests and to do that it need a blue water navy with global reach... so they will need aircraft to help them do that...

    They MiG-29 had same radar Zhuk and avionics so not true. Yak was to have also HUD display in 80s... Smile really so bad ? pls note there is a difference of over 20 years in both fighters' design.

    The MiG-29M was an operational aircraft, The Yak-41 was a technology demonstrator with zero development of systems, equipment, or weapons.

    They hadn't even tested vertical takeoffs with weapons on board.

    The aircraft had one fixed 30mm cannon and four weapons hard points on the wings.

    No belly positions were available because of the engine arrangement.

    Note your data is wrong... the Yak-41M has a payload of two R-77s and two R-73s and that is all other than the gun.
    The MiG-29K on the other hand can carry weapons on 9 pylons including external fuel tanks...

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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:17 pm

    The Yak-41 was a technology demonstrator with zero development of systems, equipment, or weapons.

    That's because they knew that program will not be getting funds and will be cancelled. They wanted to save money.

    This time they have money. Not Yakovlev but whatever company will be getting the gig.


    As for your recent comment against stationing VTOLs on helicopter carriers because then they would not be helicopter carriers anymore, that the whole point of stationing them there.
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    Post  Azi on Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:12 pm

    SMOTR - Yak 38 in Afghanistan - English subtitles

    Very entertaining and interesting... Cool
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:43 pm

    Azi wrote:SMOTR - Yak 38 in Afghanistan - English subtitles

    Very entertaining and interesting... Cool

    At 4:06, rolling STOVL style take-off.

    If it worked back then I say they can do 100 times better now.

    Hell, back then Super Nintendo was still distant science-fiction...

    And stick with ships, who the hell uses this on dirt?
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    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:34 pm

    That video just confirm that vertical take offs and landings are stunts of little usefulness.

    They say, as expected, that in vertical take offs the aircraft couldn't haul any big payload, and with high temperature it got worse and worse up to the point to make the aircraft useless.

    The improvised air strip took 2,5 months to build, was covered in metal, still after few weeks was rendered inoperative by the damages inflicted on vertical landings.

    What were the real plus behind Yak-38?

    High thrust-to-weight ratio, IMHO highly autorithative flight controls, STOL capabilities.

    Nothing related with any VTOL characteristics.

    At the end, phisic's laws being always the same era after era, it just prove that VTOL is not an option for high performance combat aircrafts.

    My bet: if, and I still doubt it is true, there is a program envisaged for a VTOL combat aircraft, it will die while on the drawing board.

    It just doesn't work.
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    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:48 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The Yak-41 was a technology demonstrator with zero development of systems, equipment, or weapons.

    That's because they knew that program will not be getting funds and will be cancelled. They wanted to save money.

    This time they have money. Not Yakovlev but whatever company will be getting the gig.


    As for your recent comment against stationing VTOLs on helicopter carriers because then they would not be helicopter carriers anymore, that the whole point of stationing them there.

    No, they ditched both Yak-38 and Yak-141 while, on the very same timeframe, they opted to develop Mig-29K.

    In the dire constraints of the 90's, they opted for what today has become the Mig-29K used both by Russian and Indian Navy.

    It speaks volume about the feedback they got both from Yak-38's operational use and Yak-141's development phase.

    They worked well or in a satisfactory way only when employed as STOL aircrafts, and with Mig-29K they have a STOL aircraft with good commonality with other versions of the family, good range, good payload, good electronics.

    All of these without having to reinvent the wheel or to pursue insane weight saving technologies and solutions.

    All you need in addition, is an angled deck with arrestors cables, i.e. a decent sized aircraft carrier.

    Because size of an aircraft carrier is always function of the number and dimensions of the embarked aircrafts, as soon you start planning for something more than 20 aircrafts embarked, the minimums length and displacement required for an angled deck pop up by themself from the drawing board.
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    Post  Azi on Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:19 am

    Peŕrier wrote:That video just confirm that vertical take offs and landings are stunts of little usefulness.

    They say, as expected, that in vertical take offs the aircraft couldn't haul any big payload, and with high temperature it got worse and worse up to the point to make the aircraft useless.

    The improvised air strip took 2,5 months to build, was covered in metal, still after few weeks was rendered inoperative by the damages inflicted on vertical landings.

    What were the real plus behind Yak-38?

    High thrust-to-weight ratio, IMHO highly autorithative flight controls, STOL capabilities.

    Nothing related with any VTOL characteristics.

    At the end, phisic's laws being always the same era after era, it just prove that VTOL is not an option for high performance combat aircrafts.

    My bet: if, and I still doubt it is true, there is a program envisaged for a VTOL combat aircraft, it will die while on the drawing board.

    It just doesn't work.
    LOL lol! No!

    They said that Yak-38 was used in STVOL mode and made a good perfomance. Other point is, that in Afghanistan runways with a few km length were seldom, so that Yak-38 was more effective, because other aircraft flew longer distance from ordinary air bases. Fuel was lower, but it didn't matter because the Yak-38 was near the frontline. So most time Yak-38 had a bigger fuel reserve, when returning as other aircraft.

    The problems with airstrip were real, but it was a experiment Wink first time they used a VTOL/STOVL aircraft in a conflict of a landlocked country. So they have now the know how, maybe they have some sufficient funds...and let's see what happens Wink
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:53 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    No, the Yak-141 had a scaled down version of Zhuk to save weight and volume (surprise!).

    if you compare available data of Zhuk model in MiG 86' and scaled down Yak version actual deection abilities are the same. surprise Smile


    Peŕrier wrote:
    So to provide almost the same performances of a Mig-29K, a Yak-141 had to operate just as a Mig-29K, making the two auxiliary turbojet and the swiveling nozzle just a baĺlast.

    It is not by chance that Yak-141 was ditched and Mig-29K development was pursued instead.

    Really you you have statement of any top brass about it? because from history Soviet Union was dissolved and many programs stopped not because they were wrong. You compare Yak from 80' with MiG from 2010. And surprisingly MiG is better. I would be surprised if not.

    Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to. and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?


    Please tell me then
    1) why MiG-29K is not going to be developed further neither produced for RuN?
    2) Why Royal Navy resigned from CATOBAR F-35 and gone for F-35B if this suck so much?


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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:56 am

    Azi wrote:

    They said that Yak-38 was used in STVOL mode and made a good perfomance. Other point is, that in Afghanistan runways with a few km length were seldom, so that Yak-38 was more effective, because other aircraft flew longer distance from ordinary air bases. Fuel was lower, but it didn't matter because the Yak-38 was near the frontline. So most time Yak-38 had a bigger fuel reserve, when returning as other aircraft.

    The problems with airstrip were real, but it was a experiment Wink first time they used a VTOL/STOVL aircraft in a conflict of a landlocked country. So they have now the know how, maybe they have some sufficient funds...and let's see what happens Wink

    STOL is in price always, vertical landing and eventually take off especially on ships. In Soviet Times there were also projects Yak-141M (so further development of Yak-141) and Yak-43 (only STOL) .


    The reason for this was ... using any short strip in war zone.
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    Post  eehnie on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:50 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:
    No, the Yak-141 had a scaled down version of Zhuk to save weight and volume (surprise!).

    if you compare available data of Zhuk model in MiG 86'  and scaled down Yak version actual deection abilities are the same. surprise Smile


    Peŕrier wrote:
    So to provide almost the same performances of a Mig-29K, a Yak-141 had to operate just as a Mig-29K, making the two auxiliary turbojet and the swiveling nozzle just a baĺlast.

    It is not by chance that Yak-141 was ditched and Mig-29K development was pursued instead.

    Really you you have statement of any top brass about it? because from history Soviet Union was dissolved and many programs stopped not because they were wrong.  You compare  Yak from 80' with MiG from 2010. And surprisingly MiG is better. I would be surprised  if not.  

    Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to.  and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?  


    Please tell me then
    1) why MiG-29K is not going to be developed further neither produced for RuN?
    2) Why Royal Navy resigned  from CATOBAR F-35 and gone for F-35B if this suck so much?



    1) The MiG-29/35 is an aircraft design of the late 1970s, early 1980s. The MiG-29K is a late variant, and will not have further development because of the advanced age of its technological basis. By the time when new aircrafts for aircraft carriers will be needed in Russia, the design of the MiG-29 will be fairly exhausted. The same for the Su-27/30/33/35 and its naval variant, the Su-33.

    At the time the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35 were selected as basis for fighters for the aircraft carriers over other VTOL options because of a superior performance. The main problem with the VTOL fighters, is to produce designs underperformers by nature. The addition of VTOL systems to a modern fighter is expensive, adds weight, and damages the performance.

    It is not totally right to say that the Yak-141 and other VTOL variants of the 1980s were cancelled because of the fall of the Soviet Union. At the time, these designs were defeated by the naval variant of the Su-27/30/33/35, the Su-33, just produced between 1989 and 1999 (not cancelled like the VTOL options), and later also by the naval variant of the MiG-29/35, the MiG-29K.

    If Russia does a bid for an new VTOL fighter, very very likely it will fall to the Su-57, like previous bids failed in the 1980s to the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35. The best option for Russia is to use the Su-57 for its future aircraft carriers, even, if possible, without need of a naval variant.


    Last edited by eehnie on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:31 am; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:44 am

    Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to. and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?

    Have you not seen the video of a Yak-41 burning after a heavy vertical landing ruptured its fuel tanks and started a huge fire....

    Arrested landings are rather safe and effective... if they are spending money developing EM cats it makes sense to use them to maximise the take off weight of carrier aircraft. and expand performance rather than reduce it.
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    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:52 am

    Azi wrote:
    LOL lol! No!

    They said that Yak-38 was used in STVOL mode and made a good perfomance. Other point is, that in Afghanistan runways with a few km length were seldom, so that Yak-38 was more effective, because other aircraft flew longer distance from ordinary air bases. Fuel was lower, but it didn't matter because the Yak-38 was near the frontline. So most time Yak-38 had a bigger fuel reserve, when returning as other aircraft.

    The problems with airstrip were real, but it was a experiment Wink first time they used a VTOL/STOVL aircraft in a conflict of a landlocked country. So they have now the know how, maybe they have some sufficient funds...and let's see what happens Wink

    What "LOL"? Are not you able to argue a point of view on a serious mood and attitude?

    STOL seemed some funny features in the 60's and early 70's, when fastjets were designed with 0,5:1 T/W ratio.

    Have a look at Su-17, extensively employed in Afghanistan.

    With those aircrafts, 2000+ meters runaway was a necessity foreseen already in the drawing boards.

    Today, any Mig-29 or Su-27 require and handful of hundred meters to take off, and with combat loads exceeding those actually viable for Yak-141, let alone Yak-38.

    The test pilot in the video testimonies that by himself: he judged satisfactory the Yak-38 test because in Afghanistan when operating short take offs it could bring around 2 tons combat payload.

    Now load a Mig-29 or a Su-27 with 2 tons only of ordnance, and check their take offs performances, you'll discover they need more or less the same runaway length required by the glorified Yak-141.
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    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:07 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Really you you have statement of any top brass about it? because from history Soviet Union was dissolved and many programs stopped not because they were wrong.  You compare  Yak from 80' with MiG from 2010. And surprisingly MiG is better. I would be surprised  if not.  

    Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to.  and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?  


    Please tell me then
    1) why MiG-29K is not going to be developed further neither produced for RuN?
    2) Why Royal Navy resigned  from CATOBAR F-35 and gone for F-35B if this suck so much?



    The test pilot testified in the video that Yak-38 in Afghanistan was forced to perform short take offs instead of vertical ones, to be able to haul any meaningful combat payload.

    So vertical take off feature was stricken off.

    The very same video testify that vertical landings, rapidly destroyed the landing strip, so even vertical landing feature was stricken off from the test field.

    In the end, they operated a STOL procedure employing a VTOL aircraft, with all the VTOL's stuff and equipment being useless if not a penalty. Because what you do not need or have not a use for, is at least a baĺlast, isn't it?

    The ditching of Yak-141 and it's timeline is engraved in stone, everybody knows when it happened.

    What should be looked at with a pinch of attention is, aside the Su-33 production timeline that fit perfectly with the aforementioned ditching of Yak-141, is that Mig-29K was started on very late 80's/early90's, and it was constantly developed in the second half of 90's up to the point to be a credible and viable naval fighter for the Indians.

    Neither the Russians, nor the Indians, gave too much credit to the Yak-141, even if both had ship's and experience with respectively Yak-38 and Sea Harrier.

    The Indians were actually funding the final development and testing phase of Mig-29K, if they had su h a confidence in vertical landings (vertical take offs being been never considered seriously), they could have advanced an offer to fund the Yak-141, couldn't they?
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    Post  Azi on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:06 am

    Peŕrier wrote:What "LOL"? Are not you able to argue a point of view on a serious mood and attitude?

    STOL seemed some funny features in the 60's and early 70's, when fastjets were designed with 0,5:1 T/W ratio.

    ...
    LOL because you are arguing not fair and objectively. You are comparing the technology of TODAY with Yak-38 and say that STOVL and VTOL is crap. I can't really compare the Harrier with F-35B, they are aircraft of complete different generation. You have your opinion before the concept even exists. How can you decide if a concept is good or bad before scientist and engineer starting their work?

    In Afghanistan the experiment with Yak-38 offered many problems, but it even offered many advantages of the concept. In Russian Air Force STOVL and VTOL died because of no funds, not of the concept itself. Other good concepts died the same way in 90ies, it's a complete lost decade for russian defence.

    There will be a new concept for STOVL/VTOL and we all don't know if it will be good or bad. So just let the guys do their work. You can say Yak-38 was a primitive aircraft compared to others and had less payload, but the new STOVL/VTOL will be not the Yak-38 or Yak-141. There are many problems with STOVL/VTOL but it offers many advantages.
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    Post  Azi on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:34 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Now load a Mig-29 or a Su-27 with 2 tons only of ordnance, and check their take offs performances, you'll discover they need more or less the same runaway length required by the glorified Yak-141.
    0 meters!? You can push everything to 18 tons of take off weight into Yak-141 and it still can do VTOL. This would be the weight of Yak-141 itself 11,6 tons, 2 tons payload for weapons in your example and the rest for fuel. The Yak was not a STOVL aircraft, it was designed as a VTOL aircraft. Still every VTOL can do STOVL and the F-35B (STOVL) can do VTOL.

    Lift engines are very powerful of Yak-141. It have a bit less the lift thrust of F-35B but is 3 tons lighter.
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    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:56 pm

    No, Yak-141's tests showed it could perform vertical take offs with one ton of payload only.

    To bring around 2,5 tons of payload it had to perform a 120 meters take off run

    A full combat load required a rather conventional take off run, not really short.

    It was not by chance or mistake that they opted for Su-33 and Mig-29K instead of Yak-141: with the only constraint of an angled deck with arrestor gear, they got far more versatile and useful combat aircraft.

    VTOL is a failed concept when referred to combat aircrafts.

    STOVL (a là F-35B) could have a meaning when you are already operating a large enough number of flat tops that couldn't possibly operate aircrafts requiring arrestor gear.

    If you have not such large number of flat tops, the STOVL start loosing appeal as well.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:42 am

    eehnie wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:
    No, the Yak-141 had a scaled down version of Zhuk to save weight and volume (surprise!).

    if you compare available data of Zhuk model in MiG 86'  and scaled down Yak version actual deection abilities are the same. surprise Smile


    Peŕrier wrote:
    So to provide almost the same performances of a Mig-29K, a Yak-141 had to operate just as a Mig-29K, making the two auxiliary turbojet and the swiveling nozzle just a baĺlast.

    It is not by chance that Yak-141 was ditched and Mig-29K development was pursued instead.

    Really you you have statement of any top brass about it? because from history Soviet Union was dissolved and many programs stopped not because they were wrong.  You compare  Yak from 80' with MiG from 2010. And surprisingly MiG is better. I would be surprised  if not.  

    Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to.  and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?  


    Please tell me then
    1) why MiG-29K is not going to be developed further neither produced for RuN?
    2) Why Royal Navy resigned  from CATOBAR F-35 and gone for F-35B if this suck so much?



    1) The MiG-29/35 is an aircraft design of the late 1970s, early 1980s. The MiG-29K is a late variant, and will not have further development because of the advanced age of its technological basis. By the time when new aircrafts for aircraft carriers will be needed in Russia, the design of the MiG-29 will be fairly exhausted. The same for the Su-27/30/33/35 and its naval variant, the Su-33.

    At the time the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35 were selected as basis for fighters for the aircraft carriers over other VTOL options because of a superior performance. The main problem with the VTOL fighters, is to produce designs underperformers by nature. The addition of VTOL systems to a modern fighter is expensive, adds weight, and damages the performance.

    It is not totally right to say that the Yak-141 and other VTOL variants of the 1980s were cancelled because of the fall of the Soviet Union. At the time, these designs were defeated by the naval variant of the Su-27/30/33/35, the Su-33, just produced between 1989 and 1999 (not cancelled like the VTOL options), and later also by the naval variant of the MiG-29/35, the MiG-29K.

    If Russia does a bid for an new VTOL fighter, very very likely it will fall to the Su-57, like previous bids failed in the 1980s to the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35. The best option for Russia is to use the Su-57 for its future aircraft carriers, even, if possible, without need of a naval variant.

    1) MiG-29K was accepted in 2010. Yak-141 was stopped in 1991 and development stalled by end of 80's. So what actually you compare?


    2) I'd love still see at least one historian, subject matter expert or top brass opinion roving that Yak was rejected because was poor performing. So far seen none but maybe this statement really exist?

    3) V?STOL fighter is planned. That what was stated so far. I presume lighter and cheaper then Su-57, more like S-54 and also for export. Yak has now little weight as planes' manufacturer so cake could go to Su as only real fighter manufacturer or less probable to MiG.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:57 am

    Peŕrier wrote:No, Yak-141's tests showed it could perform vertical take offs with one ton of payload only.

    To bring around 2,5 tons of payload it had to perform a 120 meters take off run

    That's precisely the difference: VTOL or 120m without skj jump vs ~200m with ski jump for MiG 29k. But length of landing strip or ability to vertically land means nothing in case of naval operations then V/STOL is good for nothing.

    +

    Peŕrier wrote:
    STOVL (a là F-35B) could have a meaning when you are already operating a large enough number  of flat tops that couldn't possibly operate aircrafts requiring arrestor gear.

    If you have not such large number of flat tops, the  STOVL start loosing appeal as well.


    However practice proves Royal Navy, USMC or couple of other navies choose otherwise.



    Peŕrier wrote:
    It was not by chance or mistake that they opted for Su-33 and Mig-29K instead of Yak-141: with the only constraint of an angled deck with arrestor gear, they got far more versatile and useful combat aircraft.

    With a MiG lost by landing in Syrua. Out of 24 ever produced for RuN in Syria. And Su-33 without ability to use against land targets? sounds fairly convincing to me.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:10 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to. and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?

    Have you not seen the video of a Yak-41 burning after a heavy vertical landing ruptured its fuel tanks and started a huge fire....

    Arrested landings are rather safe and effective... if they are spending money developing EM cats it makes sense to use them to maximise the take off weight of carrier aircraft. and expand performance rather than reduce it.


    Nope, I didn't see this video but I am sure that there was one or more . There were many different accidents finally Yak-41 then Yak-41M (141) and not implemented Yak-141M. Current plane also will have to grow technologically. With lessons learned by US with F-35B Russians have easier task.


    And what is most important much smaller fleet that US or even UK. The question is not V/STOL or not but what tasks fleet has to address. Invading of New Zealand, Poland or Latvia ? for example :-)
    Or attacking continental Mauritania? who knows.


    Or just sail around globe and show off V/STOL fighters to market it with occasional supporting humanitarian operations?

    Or defend mainly northern route against aircraft/ASW forces and supporting own ASW?




    Well live and see in coming years. with each news we grow smarter I guess Smile



    Between Yak-141 and new Russian V/STOL fighter there il be more then 35 years difference! V/STOL has its value for Navy especially.
    That's so far was proved by USMC/Royal Navy not to mention Italian/Spanish and potentially Japanese and Australian.













    Azi wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:What "LOL"? Are not you able to argue a point of view on a serious mood and attitude?

    STOL seemed some funny features in the 60's and early 70's, when fastjets were designed with 0,5:1 T/W ratio.

    ...
    LOL because you are arguing not fair and objectively. You are comparing the technology of TODAY with Yak-38 and say that STOVL and VTOL is crap. I can't really compare the Harrier with F-35B, they are aircraft of complete different generation. You have your opinion before the concept even exists. How can you decide if a concept is good or bad before scientist and engineer starting their work?

    In Afghanistan the experiment with Yak-38 offered many problems, but it even offered many advantages of the concept. In Russian Air Force STOVL and VTOL died because of no funds, not of the concept itself. Other good concepts died the same way in 90ies, it's a complete lost decade for russian defence.

    There will be a new concept for STOVL/VTOL and we all don't know if it will be good or bad. So just let the guys do their work. You can say Yak-38 was a primitive aircraft compared to others and had less payload, but the new STOVL/VTOL will be not the Yak-38 or Yak-141. There are many problems with STOVL/VTOL but it offers many advantages.

    Damn you dude, You've stolen my argument respekt respekt respekt

    For some strange reasons smart dudes like Garry B and Perrier  comparing planes with 40 years of difference in technology. Assuming that future V/STOL fighter in Russia will be at most replica of solutions form earlu 80s. In early 2020s.

    Some how they do not  compare Super Entendard or A-7 Corsair II with F-35B?  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:43 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:
    No, the Yak-141 had a scaled down version of Zhuk to save weight and volume (surprise!).

    if you compare available data of Zhuk model in MiG 86'  and scaled down Yak version actual deection abilities are the same. surprise Smile


    Peŕrier wrote:
    So to provide almost the same performances of a Mig-29K, a Yak-141 had to operate just as a Mig-29K, making the two auxiliary turbojet and the swiveling nozzle just a baĺlast.

    It is not by chance that Yak-141 was ditched and Mig-29K development was pursued instead.

    Really you you have statement of any top brass about it? because from history Soviet Union was dissolved and many programs stopped not because they were wrong.  You compare  Yak from 80' with MiG from 2010. And surprisingly MiG is better. I would be surprised  if not.  

    Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to.  and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?  


    Please tell me then
    1) why MiG-29K is not going to be developed further neither produced for RuN?
    2) Why Royal Navy resigned  from CATOBAR F-35 and gone for F-35B if this suck so much?



    1) The MiG-29/35 is an aircraft design of the late 1970s, early 1980s. The MiG-29K is a late variant, and will not have further development because of the advanced age of its technological basis. By the time when new aircrafts for aircraft carriers will be needed in Russia, the design of the MiG-29 will be fairly exhausted. The same for the Su-27/30/33/35 and its naval variant, the Su-33.

    At the time the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35 were selected as basis for fighters for the aircraft carriers over other VTOL options because of a superior performance. The main problem with the VTOL fighters, is to produce designs underperformers by nature. The addition of VTOL systems to a modern fighter is expensive, adds weight, and damages the performance.

    It is not totally right to say that the Yak-141 and other VTOL variants of the 1980s were cancelled because of the fall of the Soviet Union. At the time, these designs were defeated by the naval variant of the Su-27/30/33/35, the Su-33, just produced between 1989 and 1999 (not cancelled like the VTOL options), and later also by the naval variant of the MiG-29/35, the MiG-29K.

    If Russia does a bid for an new VTOL fighter, very very likely it will fall to the Su-57, like previous bids failed in the 1980s to the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35. The best option for Russia is to use the Su-57 for its future aircraft carriers, even, if possible, without need of a naval variant.

    1) MiG-29K was accepted in 2010.  Yak-141 was stopped in 1991 and development stalled by end of 80's. So what actually you compare?


    2) I'd love still see at least one historian, subject matter expert  or top brass opinion roving that Yak was rejected because was poor performing. So far seen none but maybe this statement really exist?  

    3)  V?STOL fighter is planned. That what was stated so far.  I presume lighter and cheaper then Su-57, more like S-54 and also for export. Yak has now little weight as planes' manufacturer so cake could go to Su as only real fighter manufacturer or less probable to MiG.  

    1) The MiG-29K is a variant of the MiG-29, in active service since 1982. Are not you able to recognize this? It is obvious that the technological basis of the MiG-29K is of the late 1970s early 1980s despite to have more modern improvements.

    2) The facts are not enough to need some historian/expert words? The Admiral Kutznesov is the Russian aircraft carrier selected to remain until today. Fairly the best produced in during the Soviet Union. It was commissioned in 1990. The timing was perfect for the Yak-141, but the naval variant of the Su-27/30/33/35 was selected over the Yak-141 and its variants. And later the naval variant of the MiG-29/35 was selected over the Yak-141 and its variants. Do you mean the Russian Navy selected twice the wrong aircrafts?

    3) If the Russian Armed Forces do a bid for a new VTOL fighter, this bid will very likely fall vs the Su-57. Very likely will be lighter, very likely will be underperformer compared to the Su-57, and very likely will be more expensive taking into account that the count begins now, at the begin of 2018, with the Su-57 developed and almost ready for serial production, and the VTOL fighter in zero at this point. To note that if the Russian Armed Forces would have expected a VTOL fighter to overperform the Su-57, they would have developed a VTOL fighter instead of the Su-57, and now we would have a 5th generation Russian VTOL fighter as the future main fighter for all the branches of the Russian Armed Forces.

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