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    Universal landing ships for Russian Navy

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:19 am

    They showed no design but want to build it in 2020 ?

    Not showing a design is not the same as not having a design... they seem pretty clear about its weight and capacity in terms of helicopters and troops and therefore also armour and landing capacity... there is little point in designing it to carry two reinforced battalions if it cannot also carry its vehicles too..., plus 20 helicopters.

    Sounds like they have finalised the specs and are releasing the information now.

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    Post  kvs on Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:54 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    at 220 metres it will be between the French Mistral and the Chinese 075.

    Zaliv is a good place for it. The three main shipyards in Saint Petersburg are loaded with orders (and severnaya verf before the end of the extension/modernisation has no possibility to build ships that large anyway) and should focus on their priorities.

    Furthermore due to sanction to Crimea Zaliv cannot build civilian ships that need foreign (western) components.

    I just hope they have enough capable workers.

    But going by displacement it is much closer to Mistral. The 075 has a displacement of 40000 tons.

    As for workers, Russia has demonstrated that the baton is being transferred to the younger generations in spite of all
    the economic disruption.

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    Post  kvs on Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:56 am

    GarryB wrote:
    They showed no design but want to build it in 2020 ?

    Not showing a design is not the same as not having a design... they seem pretty clear about its weight and capacity in terms of helicopters and troops and therefore also armour and landing capacity... there is little point in designing it to carry two reinforced battalions if it cannot also carry its vehicles too..., plus 20 helicopters.

    Sounds like they have finalised the specs and are releasing the information now.


    Since the NATO fake stream media always has "leaked" information to cover development, the expectation is for this sort of leakage
    to occur in Russia as well. So there is surprise when the information is kept secret until the last moment.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:12 am

    Plaque pic. of the new UDK: https://youtu.be/t27TcffkNAo?t=427
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    Post  william.boutros on Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:35 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Plaque pic. of the new UDK: https://youtu.be/t27TcffkNAo?t=427
    That is the modified and updated Ivan Gren.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:07 am

    Says 20 helicopters... which is a lot... four more than the Mistrals, which carried 16 helicopters...
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:13 am

    The source spoke about the timing of laying in Russian Kerch "Mistral"

    MOSCOW, Dec 3 - RIA News. Two universal dock ships, which are analogues of Mistral- type helicopter carriers , will be laid down in Kerch in 2020, a source in the military-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "So far, the decision has been made to confine ourselves to two ships, the series may be continued in the future," the source said.
    The transfer of the Navy is scheduled for 2025 and 2026
    .


    https://ria.ru/20191203/1561877535.html

    They are moving ahead, in June a source told laid down in 2021, in September 2020, now another confirms 2020... Delivery 2027 now 2025 and 2026. Very good.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:04 am

    dino00 wrote:The source spoke about the timing of laying in Russian Kerch "Mistral"

    MOSCOW, Dec 3 - RIA News. Two universal dock ships, which are analogues of Mistral- type helicopter carriers , will be laid down in Kerch in 2020, a source in the military-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "So far, the decision has been made to confine ourselves to two ships, the series may be continued in the future," the source said.
    The transfer of the Navy is scheduled for 2025 and 2026
    .


    https://ria.ru/20191203/1561877535.html

    They are moving ahead, in June a source told laid down in 2021, in September 2020, now another confirms 2020... Delivery 2027 now 2025 and 2026. Very good.

    Oooohh... now that IS good news Very Happy russia

    The French are still gutless cucks without an ounce of backbone, and now their idiotic Mistral ploy will backfire to the next level. Russia further develops her indigenous design capabilities, and the money spent on Mistral replacements remains in Russia instead of fattening the bottom line of a French shipyard and its private owners.

    I'd still like to see Serdyukovs head on a spike outside Lubyanka over the Mistral affair, but I guess we can't all have everything we want? Laughing
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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:06 pm

    French don't give a fuck about that mistral story. They were sold the very next day to egypt forbthe same price and french weapon sells are beating new records every year.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:Says 20 helicopters... which is a lot... four more than the Mistrals, which carried 16 helicopters...
    The Russian coaxial helos r more compact than the French 1s, so IMO it may not be all due to the supposed UDK's larger size that 4 more of them will fit on it.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:07 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    dino00 wrote:The source spoke about the timing of laying in Russian Kerch "Mistral"

    MOSCOW, Dec 3 - RIA News. Two universal dock ships, which are analogues of Mistral- type helicopter carriers , will be laid down in Kerch in 2020, a source in the military-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "So far, the decision has been made to confine ourselves to two ships, the series may be continued in the future," the source said.
    The transfer of the Navy is scheduled for 2025 and 2026
    .


    https://ria.ru/20191203/1561877535.html

    They are moving ahead, in June a source told laid down in 2021, in September 2020, now another confirms 2020... Delivery 2027 now 2025 and 2026. Very good.

    Oooohh...  now that IS good news Very Happy  russia

    The French are still gutless cucks without an ounce of backbone, and now their idiotic Mistral ploy will backfire to the next level.  Russia further develops her indigenous design capabilities, and the money spent on Mistral replacements remains in Russia instead of fattening the bottom line of a French shipyard and its private owners.

    I'd still like to see Serdyukovs head on a spike outside Lubyanka over the Mistral affair, but I guess we can't all have everything we want?  Laughing

    1. These ships are not a new design, the Russians got the design to the Mistrals when the deal was a thing, so these will be Mistrals with some modifications sure but not a new class of ship.

    Which is fine, The mistral worked well enough for its purpose. Don't need to fix what ain't broken.

    2. To start with it was dumb of Russia to buy from a NATO country, what did they expect to happen. If they couldn't see this coming then Russian brass at that time was more stupid then I thought.

    3. What plot? French are sales are good has ever, there was no cost for them breaking the deal at all. I guess just guys on web forums going "Them dam French!" But like they care about that.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:43 am

    French don't give a fuck about that mistral story.

    The French don't seem to understand the concept of Shame... you entered into a contract and accepted payment and then at the last minute you betrayed your customer and had to refund the money... which because of the circumstances ended up being actually more than they paid because of the value of the rouble at the time, and so they got a mature ship design handed to them for the loan of some money that was paid back in full.

    More importantly the modification to the Mistrals included a lot of Russian stuff which they ended up getting to sell to Egypt when they bought the two vessels.

    I'd still like to see Serdyukovs head on a spike outside Lubyanka over the Mistral affair, but I guess we can't all have everything we want?

    I don't agree... at the time it was the best solution to get such a vessel into service quickly... a mature design that worked and wouldn't have a lot of teething problems. Up until that point there had been reasonably good relations with France so their treachery was rather unexpected... but now that they are known to be untrustworthy I would agree that any future orders from them should lead to heads rolling, but that is a lesson learned.

    The Russian coaxial helos r more compact than the French 1s, so IMO it may not be all due to the supposed UDK's larger size that 4 more of them will fit on it.

    Interesting suggestion, but it is my understanding that with the Kamovs, they expected to fit 16 helicopters on board at any one time... the coaxial rotors are more compact when open and spinning but when folded are only shorter than bigger helos with bigger rotor blades which are much longer so they take up much more space when the blades are open and spinning, but fold down to a similarly compact size too... though taking up slightly more length.

    1. These ships are not a new design, the Russians got the design to the Mistrals when the deal was a thing, so these will be Mistrals with some modifications sure but not a new class of ship.

    They will be a new class of ship for the Russian Navy... they have had a couple of years to modify the design to suit their own needs better... I rather suspect they will add better weapons load outs and the design will be better able to operate in Russian conditions (ie ice breakers) and be compatible with new aircraft they are designing like the replacement for the Helix family.

    Which is fine, The mistral worked well enough for its purpose. Don't need to fix what ain't broken.

    Mistral was a mature multifunction design that worked, which is why they bought it in the first place.

    2. To start with it was dumb of Russia to buy from a NATO country, what did they expect to happen. If they couldn't see this coming then Russian brass at that time was more stupid then I thought.

    Not dumb, more naive that a european country like France could be trusted to not be manipulated by brussels and washington and london.

    They got more than what they paid back, plus the full design specs, plus they got to produce half the hull with French direction and instruction in that regard, and now they can sell attack and transport helos to Egypt... perhaps we could agree on dumb luck.

    3. What plot? French are sales are good has ever, there was no cost for them breaking the deal at all. I guess just guys on web forums going "Them dam French!" But like they care about that.

    They missed out on at least four sales to Russia, and Egypt might have bought two as well... but now there is no chance that Russia will order anything from France no matter how sweet their salesmen talk... and what is Micron doing now? Trying to sweet talk Russia into better relations... of course because it suits France to do so... The US is ordering France in regard to taxing US companies like Google and Facebook... why are they not following instructions now I wonder?

    France backed out of the deal for Mistrals with Russia, and there is no one to blame but France for that... they took the decision... they have said no to Brussels and Washington and London in the past when it suited them.

    Besides, stop pissing on this parade... the Russian Navy are finally getting their helicopter carriers, which is good news. Razz
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:33 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    1. These ships are not a new design, the Russians got the design to the Mistrals when the deal was a thing, so these will be Mistrals with some modifications sure but not a new class of ship.

    The Proboy/Lavinas won't be Russian copies of the Mistral. The designers adopted those specific Mistral design features they deemed useful and incorporated them into their past designs to update them.
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    Post  Dima on Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:36 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:The French are still gutless cucks without an ounce of backbone, and now their idiotic Mistral ploy will backfire to the next level.  Russia further develops her indigenous design capabilities, and the money spent on Mistral replacements remains in Russia instead of fattening the bottom line of a French shipyard and its private owners.
    The mistral fiasco was noting more than two joos making a deal at the cost (& intent) of fcking up Russian naval/military capability/plans.

    The net result of the mistral deal is
    - it succeeded in delaying Russia the specific naval (design & operational) capability by atleast 16 years.

    And how did it end? The Frenchies giving a stupid refund and the even more stupid Russians agreeing to accept the approx $1.8billion refund. Russia should have settled for nothing less than sueing the French for not less than $11.8billion and making sure they recieved that amount and investing it in more combat ships!

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:03 am

    Russia should have settled for nothing less than sueing the French for not less than $11.8billion and making sure they recieved that amount..
    easier said than done! The French could impose more sanctions & countersue Russia for other dreamed up things, like Ukraine does or threatens to do all the time.
    At least they got the blueprints & can send sailors & pilots to Egypt to train on them, if need be.
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    Post  Dima on Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:easier said than done! The French could impose more sanctions & countersue Russia for other dreamed up things, like Ukraine does or threatens to do all the time.
    At least they got the blueprints & can send sailors & pilots to Egypt to train on them, if need be.
    It all depends on your will.
    For example, Renault share in AvtoVAZ, Airbus supplies from Russia etc could have been kept on the line, just in case the asked compensation was not coming through.

    French sanctions?
    Instead Russia should have sanctioned French items on Russian wares and kicked Turbomecca out of Ka-226 and fast tracked on Klimov substitute which was/is dragging on due to lack of funding.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:39 am

    Anyway, it was probably for the best that Russia did not receive the French Mistrals...

    Those ships are not independent and need serious escorts (frigates, destroyers,  subs)... basically they need to travel always with a mini carrier group.

    In 2014 Russia did  not have enough ships for setting up such expeditionary group, if not stealing the best ships from each fleet, thus seriously reducing other missions capability.

    Basically it would have been in a similar position as the brits, that have two large useless aircraft carriers and no escorts (the brits will also have no aircrafts for a while).

    Building carriers is not the priority if you don't have enough capable and modern frigates and destroyers.

    By 2026 Russia will have more gorshkov and modernised udaloys and should be in a definitely better position than in 2014.

    Btw, I remember having read the comment of a British expert (maybe a retired admiral but I am not sure), telling that the best thing for the british navy would be to open the hatches and let the queen Elizabeth and her sister ship sink on the moment they are delivered. That would save a lot of money and prevent decline in the capability of the royal navy....

    Edit: spelling mistakes


    Last edited by Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:15 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:53 am

    Those ships are not indipendente, and need serious escorts (frigates, destroyers, subs)... basically they need to travel always with a mini carrier group.
    Georgia & Japan wouldn't do anything between 2014 & now, so those UDKs would be training.
    Besides, in the closed Black & Okhotsk Seas the VMF could use smaller ships & land based aviation to protect them; they wouldn't be landing marines on NATO or Japanese shores or chasing pirates in the Indian Ocean any time soon.
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    Post  william.boutros on Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    1. These ships are not a new design, the Russians got the design to the Mistrals when the deal was a thing, so these will be Mistrals with some modifications sure but not a new class of ship.

    The Proboy/Lavinas won't be Russian copies of the Mistral.  The designers adopted those specific Mistral design features they deemed useful and incorporated them into their past designs to update them.

    So what is it finally going to be the 16,000 ton desin or the 26,000 tons one? Are they still developping that vertical take off plane listed in the army development plan?
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:28 pm

    william.boutros wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    1. These ships are not a new design, the Russians got the design to the Mistrals when the deal was a thing, so these will be Mistrals with some modifications sure but not a new class of ship.

    The Proboy/Lavinas won't be Russian copies of the Mistral.  The designers adopted those specific Mistral design features they deemed useful and incorporated them into their past designs to update them.

    So what is it finally going to be the 16,000 ton desin or the 26,000 tons one? Are they still developping that vertical take off plane listed in the army development plan?

    AFAIK the new ships will be the 16kT design (Priboy). No idea on the VTOL/VSTOL but I'd suspect the new LHDs will only have rotocraft.
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    Post  Azi on Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:24 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    1. These ships are not a new design, the Russians got the design to the Mistrals when the deal was a thing, so these will be Mistrals with some modifications sure but not a new class of ship.
    They are complete new designs! Priboy class is designed for stealth properties...Mistral was not! It can carry more, though the displacment is same.

    What really surprised me is that the design of Priboy is stealthier, than every new landingship, carrier the USN owns. Only the Queen Elizabeth Class is really stealthy for a carrier. Russian Navy is really consequent in their plan, to form a modern homogenous flotilla in the next decades.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:09 am

    The net result of the mistral deal is
    - it succeeded in delaying Russia the specific naval (design & operational) capability by atleast 16 years.

    I don't agree.

    The money they paid they got back and actually got more back than they paid because the value of the ruble changed during that period in their favour.

    They effectively gave the Russians complete access to a current French warship with all the electronics details intact, the Mistral is a mature and tested design which was basically handed to the Russians for nothing. More importantly they tutored the Russian shipyards that made half of the ships in how to make them the way they make them, and of course most of the systems on board these ships are Russian so they are making money completing contracts with Egypt for the aircraft and components and systems that are fitted (their own top secret stuff was not fitted... it would have been fitted after the hand over...).

    What they probably did was shorten the development time and ensure better design decisions were made for their own designs which should be ready mid 2025 or so, which is about 8 years after they would have gotten their Mistrals, but it means now they can better modify the design to suit them better.

    It will make the ship they end up building even better... which is good for the Russians.

    And how did it end? The Frenchies giving a stupid refund and the even more stupid Russians agreeing to accept the approx $1.8billion refund. Russia should have settled for nothing less than sueing the French for not less than $11.8billion and making sure they recieved that amount and investing it in more combat ships!

    They never would have paid that... I doubt they could even afford to pay that, and demanding it an not getting it would just make Russia look stupid.

    It is enough that Russia and any country paying attention learns the lesson that the French can't be trusted.

    Instead Russia should have sanctioned French items on Russian wares and kicked Turbomecca out of Ka-226 and fast tracked on Klimov substitute which was/is dragging on due to lack of funding.

    Russia is doing that anyway...

    Don't you love the irony... Vlad has mentioned the quality of French jet engines, but a short while back the French suggested that the Russians work on developing the high spec, high tech high temperature titanium components in most of the best commercial jet engines, so Russian companies could replace US companies that currently make them for French engines... of course you could do that... and in fact should do that, but also do the same for Russian engines so they can replace French engines in Russian projects. The result will be the French buying Russian components for their own engines and those engines they export, while Russia will also be making its own engines with presumably improved performance too... the only loser would be the US... Very Happy

    In 2014 Russia did not have enough ships for setting up such expeditionary group, if not stealing the best ships from each fleet, thus seriously reducing other missions capability.

    I rather suspect that while the Mistral contract was going ahead other programmes to develop support ships and indeed the serious port based infrastructure to operate such vessels was also being put into place... I rather suspect when the Frenchies folded like the back page of a MAD comic, those plans were rescheduled and restructured because they will get such ships at some stage and the infrastructure needs to be ready when they are ready.

    I would suspect having two Mistral carriers would have spurred the upgrades of the current cold war destroyer types (sovremmeny and udaloy).

    Btw, I remember having read the comment of a British expert (maybe a retired admiral but I am not sure), telling that the best thing for the british navy would be to open the hatches and let the queen Elizabeth and her sister ship sink on the moment they are delivered. That would save a lot of money and prevent decline in the capability of the royal navy....

    I would say the same applies to the F-35... that white elephant is going to suck up money that most air forces who are receiving it probably need to spend on other things that need fixing more than they need another fighter aircraft.

    Of all the things NATO needs one of them is not a new fighter... they could do with a lot of other things first, but now the operational costs of the F-35 mean they probably wont get it...

    Of course the increase in fire power of the new Russian ships, that would be the purpose of a 20K cruiser... SAMs to not just defend itself, but also the ships that are operating with it... that is what Rif and Rif-M were for in the Soviet Navy.

    Conversely the Kuzentsov shouldn't need a cruiser to protect it... the point of the K is to protect the other ships it is operating with using air cover and AWACS aircraft.

    For the UK their carriers are their projection and attack platform that is protected by ships.

    Georgia & Japan wouldn't do anything between 2014 & now, so those UDKs would be training.
    Besides, in the closed Black & Okhotsk Seas the VMF could use smaller ships & land based aviation to protect them; they wouldn't be landing marines on NATO or Japanese shores or chasing pirates in the Indian Ocean any time soon.

    The two mistrals they bought would have both gone to the Pacific Fleet to protect the Kuriles and help with the expansion east.

    If they bought two more Mistrals they would have gone to the Northern Fleet to support arctic ops.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:54 am

    ..telling that the best thing for the british navy would be to open the hatches and let the queen Elizabeth and her sister ship sink on the moment they are delivered.
    how would they claim to be "ruling the waves" again & defend/retake the Falklands from Argentina, in case of 1982 war de ja vu?
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:20 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..telling that the best thing for the british navy would be to open the hatches and let the queen Elizabeth and her sister ship sink on the moment they are delivered.
    how would they claim to be "ruling the waves" again & defend/retake the Falklands from Argentina, in case of 1982 war de ja vu?

    They do not have aircrafts to fly with then, so there is no difference. What the british navy would need is more modern frigates and destroyers, before they even think about carriers just for the ego. For the rest of the world is better if they spend money with those carriers and don't have money to fix the navy.
    They already meddled to much in Mediterranean in the past centuries. Ideally I would like the "Mare nostrum" to be free of brits and americans
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:38 am

    Azi wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    1. These ships are not a new design, the Russians got the design to the Mistrals when the deal was a thing, so these will be Mistrals with some modifications sure but not a new class of ship.
    They are complete new designs! Priboy class is designed for stealth properties...Mistral was not! It can carry more, though the displacment is same.

    What really surprised me is that the design of Priboy is stealthier, than every new landingship, carrier the USN owns. Only the Queen Elizabeth Class is really stealthy for a carrier. Russian Navy is really consequent in their plan, to form a modern homogenous flotilla in the next decades.


    Stealth properties really don't matter with ships that big. We build our landing ships to land and support troops and serve her multifunctional base of operations etc. In wartime, the enemy will know where your large ships are at all times stealth or no stealth.  

    May for 5k tons and under Stealth MIGHT have some use but for anything over 10k it's a pointless feature.

    and No the Queen Class will not be hiding from everything she is wayyyyyyyy to big.


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