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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:38 am

    GarryB wrote:As mentioned above even the predecessor of Pantsir... Tunguska has an optical only engagement mode when enemy ECM and ESM is intense.

    They would also have Tochka and Iskander to deal with any jamming system fairly quickly...

    The Israeli source also makes it questionable... haven't they been saying they could take out any S-300 or S-400 system deployed in Syria... and is it equally fair to say that over the last few years when both systems have been present in Syria the Israeli Air Force has gone no where near such systems let alone taken them out...

    Now that they have F-35s... an aircraft designed from the outset to defeat S-400 systems they wont even fly in Syrian air space let alone attack anything... pretty clear who is full of number twos here... even if what they were saying is true why is it that after all these years of effort less than four Pantsir systems have been destroyed in combat... makes them sound rather useful and effective to me to be honest...

    The US deployed some F-22s to Syria a couple of years ago.   I have not heard a squeak about them since.   If they were such super-tech we
    would hear choirs of praise in the western MSM.    It looks like they got lit up a few times by Russian radar systems and the yanquis decided
    that their stealth was not good enough to risk them being blown out of the sky.    The F-35 is hardly going to be more effective.

    As you highlight, the absence of Israeli jets operating over Syria makes their trash talk look ridiculous.   But this article is intrinsically ridiculous
    thanks to its obvious over the top claims.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:26 am

    Well, that and the fact that around that year or last year Israel lost a F-16 to the Syrian AD systems
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:01 am

    The other obvious factor is if you knew the Pantsir system was compromised why on earth would you tell anyone or let anyone know that you know by posting it on a website.

    I mean there is no reason to think a South Korean jamming system might not be effective against a particular radar... everybody has smart engineers and anyone can make something ground breaking and effective... there is no reason to believe a South Korean company couldn't create a useful jammer system... but you have to ask yourself how is this going to work... the missiles of Pantsir are not radar guided... neither active radar homing nor semi active radar homing nor passive radar homing so a jamming signal can only disrupt the radars on the Pantsir from finding targets. Such a system might exist but the obvious problem is that if you have an active noise jammer... lets move it into the light spectrum to make it simpler... the pantsir system uses an optical telescope to find targets... it uses both active and passive modes so it uses a laser to reflect back targets but it can also detect targets that emit light themselves in a passive mode... it effectively shines a laser light on the target using its tracking radar and uses that information  to transmit course corrections to the missiles it launches to intercept the target.

    Continuing the light theme this helicopter mounted South Korean jammer is a laser jammer... it finds radar(laser emitters and telescopes) and directs intense amounts of laser energy at them to render them ineffective.

    The problem here is that it doesn't work in the light spectrum it works in presumably the same cmw and mmw radar spectrum the radars of the Pantsir which means the intense beam of radar energy it needs to blind the tracking radar of the Pantsir could be used by the Pantsir to rapidly locate the helicopter carrying the jammer and with its EO system find and lock and shoot down said jammer fairly easily and quickly... or at least pass the target information up the chain for a larger longer ranged system to engage and destroy the threat. I would suspect there are a range of passive radar homing... ie anti radiation missiles (ARMs) that could be used to take out such a jammer too... the R-27EP model would be ideal without modification... its 40kg HE payload would obliterate most aircraft.

    The design of the Pantsir is not set in stone and ways to defeat it will constantly be being developed, but equally ways of getting around ways to defeat it will also be developed too... an important way to prevent it being defeated is don't operate them as single vehicles on their own... use them in batteries managed by IADS so they are not easy kills.

    There is no such thing as an invincible system, but the fact that Syria has been using them for a few years against Israel and the US effectively and has lost less than four tells you it is a pretty damn good system... which I am sure will reflect in export sales...


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:57 am

    As mentioned above even the predecessor of Pantsir... Tunguska has an optical only engagement mode when enemy ECM and ESM is intense.

    If optic engagement was that good they wouldn't put radar on the pantsir.

    Drones are small targets and their munitions even smaller. I don't think they will see them at max range ... maybe 10km but the munition used by turkish drones have 8-14km range.

    And we don't even know how many drones attacked in the same time. If there were 2 of them, one from the right one from the left attacking at the same time then the pantsir is dead.
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    Post  BlackArrow on Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:42 pm

    kvs wrote:
    The US deployed some F-22s to Syria a couple of years ago.   I have not heard a squeak about them since.   If they were such super-tech we
    would hear choirs of praise in the western MSM.    It looks like they got lit up a few times by Russian radar systems and the yanquis decided
    that their stealth was not good enough to risk them being blown out of the sky.    The F-35 is hardly going to be more effective.

    As you highlight, the absence of Israeli jets operating over Syria makes their trash talk look ridiculous.   But this article is intrinsically ridiculous
    thanks to its obvious over the top claims.

    F-22s have flown over Syria plenty of times with no worries - why would they be worried?

    And what absence of Israeli jets? Israeli air force carries out raids against Syria all the time - it's become so routine you just never hear about it all the time.

    Here, an Israeli raid from a few days' ago.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-injuries-or-damage-at-site-of-israeli-strikes-in-syria-report/
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:13 pm

    They fled into Iraqi airspace as soon as a Su-35 turned up.

    The zionist apartheid state air force isn´t flying in syrian airspace. They misuse lebanese airspace, use stand-off Missiles (which are shot down every time) and hide behind civilian airplanes, just like terrorists would do.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:11 am

    If optic engagement was that good they wouldn't put radar on the pantsir.

    Optics are not ideal at 20km but the 10km range SOSNA doesn't use radar... it only uses optics... and it seems to be the same with the new AA 57mm gun which uses radar to track outgoing shells but not to find targets, so for air defence purposes optics is fine much of the time.

    BTW that works both ways... if Radar was so wonderful why would they put optical alternatives... and these are thermal as well as visible light which makes drones and munitions much easier to spot... both TOR and Pantsir have video auto tracking systems so there is computer based digital tracking of targets...

    Drones are small targets and their munitions even smaller. I don't think they will see them at max range ...

    So?

    Very small targets like drones are difficult targets for radars too, I would say it was easier for optics to track than radars which generally just detect the engines in drones rather than their plastic skins.

    maybe 10km but the munition used by turkish drones have 8-14km range.

    A munition that has a range of 8km is going to be ATGM sized or bigger and have a rocket motor that will make it very easy to spot from significant distances with IIR sensors. A drone able to carry more than one of these will also be of a significant size too, which might not matter for a radar that sees right through its plastic skin, but for an IIR sensor it makes a difference.

    And we don't even know how many drones attacked in the same time. If there were 2 of them, one from the right one from the left attacking at the same time then the pantsir is dead.

    The missiles of Pantsir travel at about 1km/s... how many turkish drones move that fast?

    Even assuming a single Pantsir vehicle operating on its own engaging two targets would take less than a minute if the target range is less than 10km it could probably deal with rather more.


    F-22s have flown over Syria plenty of times with no worries - why would they be worried?

    Not Syrian government airspace AFAIK... only illegally US occupied airspace... and not very much.

    And what absence of Israeli jets? Israeli air force carries out raids against Syria all the time - it's become so routine you just never hear about it all the time.

    Here, an Israeli raid from a few days' ago.

    Using stand off weapons from outside Syrian airspace...

    ...and hide behind civilian airplanes, just like terrorists would do.

    No surprise... the nation of Israel was created as an act of violence and terrorism...


    Last edited by GarryB on Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:18 pm

    New production dummy target.  Laughing This will fool the Turks russia

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 7 ESnJXFqWoAcRB-p?format=png&name=900x900
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    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:33 pm

    JohninMK wrote:New production dummy target.  Laughing This will fool the Turks  russia

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: #2 - Page 7 ESnJXFqWoAcRB-p?format=png&name=900x900

    It seems that Russian fooled Turks , they gave them poisoned ice cream Laughing
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:26 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:New production dummy target.  Laughing This will fool the Turks  russia

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESnJXFqWoAcRB-p?format=png&name=900x900

    It seems that Russian fooled Turks , they gave them poisoned ice cream Laughing


    On behalf of Republic of Serbia I expect full royalty payment for use of our trademark patent lol1


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    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:00 am

    Drones are small targets and their munitions even smaller. I don't think they will see them at max range ... maybe 10km but the munition used by turkish drones have 8-14km range.

    Would also add if the radar is being jammed effectively then the radar will be turned off so how is a drone supposed to know where the Pantsir system even is?

    A flying moving target is much easier to spot than a stationary vehicle...

    When the enemy start jamming I would expect some sort of missile would be launched to engage... the Iskander and Tochka familes of missiles have a range of different guidance heads and one detects radar frequencies... so it could be used to target an active jammer quite easily... a 500kg payload coming in at about 7 times the speed of sound should render the jammer quiet for an extended period...

    SOSNA-R or Pine would actually be a much better solution as it has no radar and is totally passive and uses small 35kg missiles that are two piece solid rocket booster and slim long missile terminal portion... loaded in tubes like a pantsir but a much smaller cheaper missile that uses cheap beam riding technology.

    Ironically it is a similar weight to the new model Kornet and both have a 10km flight range in the HE version, but the main difference is that Pine is a very high speed two stage missile that reaches its target out to 10km in about 12 seconds, while Kornet moves at about 350m/s... so rather slower...

    Both have the expensive optics and complex guidance systems in the launcher so the ammo is cheap and can be mass produced in enormous numbers and actually used without breaking the bank...
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    Post  PeeD on Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:45 pm

    For the first time since quite some time the U.S military industrial complex may manage to produce an efficient and cost effective weapon against IADS assets such as the Pantsir:

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32669/air-forces-gray-wolf-program-tests-game-changing-small-low-cost-jet-engine

    This weapon class/concept was pioneered by Israel with the Delilah.

    Key is to avoid an expensive, complex turbofan propulsion and go for a rather primitive, single shaft, single compressor and single turbine.

    This drives down the cost still offers 500km class range and 100kg+ warhead.

    4 F-16 with 6 such weapons each allow an coordinated attack of 24 such terrain masking cruise missiles that allow a multi directional attack. At 250.000$ per round for example, the attack would cost 6m$.

    A battery of 4 Pantsir may be able to counter such an attack but a single vehicle could get overloaded.

    I hope @Mindstorm can share his opinion on this new weapon path vs. IADS assets with us.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:43 pm

    Their f-35 was supposed to be around 80 million $ and now even not mature it is 150 if not more.

    If this missile is a miniaturized cruise missile with the same caracteristics as normal cruise missiles, what makes you think it will be 4 times cheaper ?

    Miniaturization means more expensive and newest technology. There is no way it can be cheaper.

    Let's not forget it is made by US. They would sell shit thousands dollars to the taxpayer if the army needed it... actually they are already doing that with the toilets on their carriers. lol1 . Cheap and US military industrial complexe will never go togather.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:07 am

    Yeah, it will never be that cheap. Its all nonsense. When a step ladder into a jet costs $600 back in 1999, there is no way they can get a cruise like missile to be less than $500,000 per round.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:19 am

    4 F-16 with 6 such weapons each allow an coordinated attack of 24 such terrain masking cruise missiles that allow a multi directional attack. At 250.000$ per round for example, the attack would cost 6m$.

    The other factor is that it likely wont be flying on an F-16... it will more likely be carried perhaps two at a time in an F-35 to prevent the launch platforms from being shot down and the operational costs of an F-35 is something like $70,000 per flight hour per aircraft, so to launch 24 missiles you will need 12 F-35s, and assuming 3 hour flights to get into position and launch and then return home that means 36 hours of flight time so that adds 2.5 million dollars to the cost of the attack, and of course if any of the aircraft are shot down you will be adding 120-150 million dollars to the cost.

    The point is that if Israel could improve its attacks to the point where they started taking down the Syrian air defence network... Russia would have to allow the Syrians to defend themselves and start shooting down Israeli aircraft outside Syrian airspace. That means any money the US or Israel saves on munitions is going to start costing them rather a lot more in aircraft... which simply means they will either need to stop their attacks or dramatically escalate... and lets face it... they wont stop their attacks, so a dramatic escalation is going to be very expensive and potentially bloody... but likely also useful for Russia because it will crystalise in fact what HATO would do when faced with the problem of Russian air defences... so solutions to these problems will be directly applicable to Russian defence from HATO...

    I would also second the suggestion that the west does not do cheap or even affordable very well... which is why I find all their talk about swarms defeating IADS to be so amusing... if anyone can create a cheap viable effective swarm attack it would be Russia and China... Soviet anti ship missiles of the late 1970s used swarm technology to overwhelm IADS on US ships protecting US carrier groups... might be where the west got the brilliant idea....
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    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Drones are small targets and their munitions even smaller. I don't think they will see them at max range ... maybe 10km but the munition used by turkish drones have 8-14km range.

    Would also add if the radar is being jammed effectively then the radar will be turned off so how is a drone supposed to know where the Pantsir system even is?

    A flying moving target is much easier to spot than a stationary vehicle...

    When the enemy start jamming I would expect some sort of missile would be launched to engage... the Iskander and Tochka familes of missiles have a range of different guidance heads and one detects radar frequencies... so it could be used to target an active jammer quite easily... a 500kg payload coming in at about 7 times the speed of sound should render the jammer quiet for an extended period...

    SOSNA-R or Pine would actually be a much better solution as it has no radar and is totally passive and uses small 35kg missiles that are two piece solid rocket booster and slim long missile terminal portion... loaded in tubes like a pantsir but a much smaller cheaper missile that uses cheap beam riding technology.

    Ironically it is a similar weight to the new model Kornet and both have a 10km flight range in the HE version, but the main difference is that Pine is a very high speed two stage missile that reaches its target out to 10km in about 12 seconds, while Kornet moves at about 350m/s... so rather slower...

    Both have the expensive optics and complex guidance systems in the launcher so the ammo is cheap and can be mass produced in enormous numbers and actually used without breaking the bank...


    I highly doubt that the latest product (TDI-J85 engine) of the program "Gray Wolf" will be really used in the realization of cruise missiles "swarms", as usually mantained in open media, while instead it will be, if realized at affordable cost, used as main propulsion of full UAV formations or mixed UAV/"dumb" cruise missiles swarms with the UAV component providing integrated flight parameter guidance and target assignation and positional data for the "dumb" affordable cruise missiles.

    There are some premises for that:

    1) US specialists lately became perfectly aware that classical approach to the decoys design, mostly through radar signature's management of the flying object aimed at mimic other products and theirs employment in SEAD/DEAD missions, has been practically rendered totally obsolete by the latests integrated multifrequency sensor of main enemy's IADS and the new algorythms of theirs integrated signal processing , reciving data from irradiations from different point of origin.  

    2) Advancement in Federation's air and even more ground-based EW systems render for the future "swarm attack" mandatory the total authonomy of the elements of the attacking group from long range man-on -the-loop guidance, or by means of advanced IA integration - an element that however collide with the necessity of very low unit cost and time of construction of the single elements - or through guidance carried out by some elements present directly in or near the attacking swarm - in the initial Pentagon's plan F-35 or F-22 ,but the plan has been abandoned lately toward specilaized UCAV -.

    3) The size of the swarm (number of the component elements) and the stand-off distance from the enemy AD systems , necessary for a staple node of an enemy IAD continue to grow enormously year after year and those growing requirements, togheter with the secure guidance technique from point 2, collectively collide directly with the ever lowering unit cost's requirements.

    In substance a future offensive air group need an ever growing number of  highly-expendable UAV/UCAV/cruise missiles , with ever growing stand-off range ,so that theirs delivering platforms or ground bases would noit become easily destroyed by enemy air defenses or stand off attacks, and with sensor suit and flight guidance methods that must be more and more independent and resistant to EW. Those three ever changing factors do not combine favourably for weapon designers.

    The new trend among US planners is to create relatively affordable stand off products that, to the contrary of identified decoys, cannot be totally eliminated from engagement sequence by part of the EW and SAM of enemy IAD because potentially capable to generate some damage to the defensive structure or provide aid ,in the shape of short range jamming or positional data, to second wave stand off weapons : in substance the aim has became that of generate the maximum menace's disambiguation problems for the enemy IAD.

    Returning to the Gray Wolf subject is important to understand that the TDI-J85 is an engine with lower mass but also only about 200 lb of thrust, even foreseeing a very unlikely increase of 25-30% thrust in a future iterations, you have a product that prevent the relative missile to proceed at the same speed and flight parameters of missiles such as JASSM/JASSM-ER and above all with the same radar signature of those product for advanced multi-spectral radar of the latest generation, moreover those low-cost "cruise missiles" would lack the space and energy requirement for authonomous guidance and ECM resistant terminal guidance.

    From what said it is very likely that the final iteration of the Gray Wolf program will be likely a suicide or surveillance UAV ,integrated in a pack of similar,but high cost UAVs with very similar flight speed and manoeuvering parameters, relying on those higher cost UAVs -maybe with a degree of AI integration- for guidance and target engagements or, instead, a very low performance cruise missiles almost devoid of avionics relying on guidance by part of ISR elements (both high altitude UAVs or manned fighter/bombers.

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