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    Russian Air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarine technology

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:37 pm

    There was a Soviet system described as being 1m square and four metres long that was able to generate about 20Kw continuously and its cooling system was designed to be able to be hooked up to a water or glycerol based "cooling" system. The system to cool the small reactor could be used to heat fluid to heat a living space.

    The primary intention for the system was for use on a Mars like base where the cooling system for the reactor could be used to heat the living spaces on the base and the electricity generated could therefore be used for things other than heating... reducing the amount of power needed for the base.

    It was supposed to continue generating at rated power for about 13 years before requiring refuelling.

    For a mini sub it would be very useful and with batteries.
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    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:31 pm

    Rmf wrote:could aditional rtg generator in 100kw range, using some advanced technologies thermionic ,stirling ,photovoltaic and thermovoltaic ,be used on conventional submarine. it would wok non-stop thus charging cells while submarine is still in position.

    If you use pu238 then the energy density of it is 470w/kg, it is the thermal.

    Electricity generation will be somethign like 47-150 watt, later need boiling ,so noisy.

    The pu238 more expensive than the weapon grade Pu238.

    100 kW submarine grade (silent) RTG needs 200 kg of Pu238. It would cost more than the cost of a standard nuclear submarine.


    alternative is to use Cs137 or Sr90, but this are gamma emitters ( Pu238 alpha emitter) , means it needs a lot of shielding.

    Addiaionaly the raw metals and compounds/oxides are water souble, so it can do interesting stuff if the canister damaged.


    A commercial reacor makes something like 30 kg of cs137/ GWeyear, means one VVER-1000 can generate enought material for three submarine continously.


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    Post  Rmf on Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:55 pm

    yes i doubt it could be used for propulsion its in 10s of killowats , , an technology offset from space program , perhaps for sensors and human enviroment conditioning , and recharging batteries while stationary at combat station for days, would be good enough.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BES-5
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:10 pm

    I agree... considering its small size and battery like nature, having one or two of these on a small conventional sub as a backup powersource even just to run the pumps or blow ballast and keep the CO2 scrubbers running would be useful.
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    Post  Rmf on Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:41 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Rmf wrote:could aditional rtg generator in 100kw range, using some advanced technologies thermionic ,stirling ,photovoltaic and thermovoltaic ,be used on conventional submarine. it would wok non-stop thus charging cells while submarine is still in position.

    If you use pu238 then the energy density of it is 470w/kg, it is the thermal.

    Electricity generation will be somethign like 47-150 watt, later need boiling ,so noisy.

    The pu238 more expensive than the weapon grade Pu238.

    100 kW submarine grade (silent) RTG needs 200 kg of Pu238. It would cost more than the cost of a standard nuclear submarine.


    alternative is to use Cs137 or Sr90, but this are gamma emitters ( Pu238 alpha emitter) , means it needs a lot of shielding.

    Addiaionaly the raw metals and compounds/oxides are water souble, so it can do interesting stuff if the canister damaged.


    A commercial reacor makes something like 30 kg of cs137/ GWeyear, means one VVER-1000 can generate enought material for three submarine continously.


    i have found another element , polonium 210   http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/polonium.htm
    it has decay rate of 140 days half-life , 3,5 months , just enough for usual submarine combat operations.
    it has 120 w/g  or 120kw/kg ...
    ofcourse thats thermal output , efficiency conversion is important if you can get 35%  thats 40 kw electricity per kilogram.!
    termocouples used had low efficiency in 5-10% thats why they abandoned it , but thermo-photovoltaic that use infrared light have over 20% ,and modified stirling engine too, if you combine them you can get much better conversion efficiency.

    conventional submarine always drains its batteries , human life support uses up to 100w per person , thats 5 kw for 50 people. computers ,bow sonar, tower sonar, side sonars ,that drains many kilowatts too.... i guess this advanced rtg concept would fit in very well.
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    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:40 am

    Rmf wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Rmf wrote:could aditional rtg generator in 100kw range, using some advanced technologies thermionic ,stirling ,photovoltaic and thermovoltaic ,be used on conventional submarine. it would wok non-stop thus charging cells while submarine is still in position.

    If you use pu238 then the energy density of it is 470w/kg, it is the thermal.

    Electricity generation will be somethign like 47-150 watt, later need boiling ,so noisy.

    The pu238 more expensive than the weapon grade Pu238.

    100 kW submarine grade (silent) RTG needs 200 kg of Pu238. It would cost more than the cost of a standard nuclear submarine.


    alternative is to use Cs137 or Sr90, but this are gamma emitters ( Pu238 alpha emitter) , means it needs a lot of shielding.

    Addiaionaly the raw metals and compounds/oxides are water souble, so it can do interesting stuff if the canister damaged.


    A commercial reacor makes something like 30 kg of cs137/ GWeyear, means one VVER-1000 can generate enought material for three submarine continously.


    i have found another element , polonium 210   http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/polonium.htm
    it has decay rate of 140 days half-life , 3,5 months , just enough for usual submarine combat operations.
    it has 120 w/g  or 120kw/kg ...
    ofcourse thats thermal output , efficiency conversion is important if you can get 35%  thats 40 kw electricity per kilogram.!
    termocouples used had low efficiency in 5-10% thats why they abandoned it , but thermo-photovoltaic that use infrared light have over 20% ,and modified stirling engine too, if you combine them you can get much better conversion efficiency.

    conventional submarine always drains its batteries , human life support uses up to 100w per person , thats 5 kw for 50 people. computers ,bow sonar, tower sonar, side sonars ,that drains many kilowatts too.... i guess this advanced rtg concept would fit in very well.

    Russia manufacturing 100 gramm of Polonium isotopes (every iotope, not only 210 ! ).

    If you use RTGs then it makes more sense to power sonar bouys or underwater sonar/data collection stations with them.
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    Post  Rmf on Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:46 pm

    ok wrong choise , i looked at some usual materials and how about cobalt it has civilian use , Co 60 , it has 17 w/gr .  60 grams for 1 kw of thermal energy. granted it has hard radiationg requires shielding but it could be done from couple of kg of cobalt. half life is in years.
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    Post  Singular_trafo on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:08 pm

    Rmf wrote:ok wrong choise , i looked at some usual materials and how about cobalt it has civilian use , Co 60 , it has 17 w/gr .  60 grams for 1 kw of thermal energy. granted it has hard radiationg requires shielding but it could be done from couple of kg of cobalt. half life is in years.

    Silent RTG has 5-10% conversion efficiency, so 1kW thermal = 50-100 watt electrical.

    Noisy has higher, but we talk about submarine.


    And this materials are three magnitud more expensive than the gold example.And the handling of them require expensive and complicated mannners.
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    Post  berhoum on Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:59 pm

    Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]  study
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    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:56 pm

    berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]  study

    Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:34 pm

    Isos wrote:
    berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]  study

    Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

    Not possible.
    Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:12 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]  study

    Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

    Not possible.
    Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

    In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.
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    Post  berhoum on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:38 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]  study

    Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

    Not possible.
    Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.


    In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.

    Thank you for your answers you are the best  russia
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:42 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877]  study

    Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

    Not possible.
    Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

    In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.

    Air independent propulsion need a big oxygen tank, and hydrogen tank, or diesel engine with same tricky exhaust condenser system.

    Say if you modify the existing kilos then you can`t simply install the oxygen tank onto the place of the batteries, the oxigen tank must be as close as possible to spehrical .

    list of problems>
    -Cetner of gravity will move. Dramaticaly, and to compensate it the internal distribution of masses has to be rearranged dramaticaly.I don`t know how it can be handled in a tightly packed submarine without rebuild the whole thing from small bits.
    -New section must be welded for LOX tank, hermeticaly separated from all other comparment.
    -The boat must be cutted into pieces.
    -New co2/h2o condesner system needs to be installed onto the place of the main generator/motor.


    I don!t think that the above can be possible wihtout spending more money and time than to actualy make a new boat.


    Actualy, the new ship can be considered as something that contain parts from a kilo submarine.

    The above shortcuts can be compensated if say you make an AIP submarine that can last for few days only.But what is the point of the whole story in that case?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:42 am

    AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

    A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

    The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

    A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

    The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.

    Having a big hydorgen tank on board is more than Dangerous ... I've seen a video where different AIP systems are showed but I can't found it. Stocking oxygen on board is the simpplest way but it's not an AIP system as it doesn't produce the oxygen. If I'm not wrong that's what chinese did for their subs.
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    Post  berhoum on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:44 pm

    And a pile(battery) of fuel. Question
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

    A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

    The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.

    So, basic chemistry:
    Chemical reaction need reduction and oxidiser agent.

    The oxider can be oxzgen ,fluor, chloride or hydrogen peroxide.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizing_agent

    The most common is the liquid oxigen, compressed oxzgen or peroxide.

    The only that can be considered is the liquid oxygen.

    The reducer agent is less demanding if all that you want is to burn the fuel.
    If you use it in an internal combustion engine then the parameters more demanding, if in fuel cell the only material that you can consider is the hydrogen.

    So, the diesel can be considered as fuel, but that burn to CO2 and H2O , and the Co2 has to be compressed to get evacuated from the sub.
    Not impossible , but increase the cost comlexity mass.


    So, it still gives skeleton ratling, unless you use low power and special vibration separation.

    The best is the H2, proton tranfer membaranes gives to us fuel cells.

    But it needs liquid hydrogen.

    So, the sub needs liquid oxygen, unless you are willing to store preoxyde, a lot of peroxyde actually.
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    Post  Austin on Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:23 am

    Fourth Generation Conventional submarines
    15 Jan 2019
    Russia’s proposal for the Indian Navy

    http://www.vayuaerospace.in/article.html?n=fourth-generation-conventional-submarines&d=201

    The second Pr.677 conventional submarine (improved Lada-class), the Kronstadt, was launched in Russia at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg on 20 September 2018, the submarine being a Kalibr cruise missile carrier. The highly accurate and destructive power of this weapon was recently demonstrated by the Russian Navy during “counter-terrorist operations”, and combined the lowest level of hydroacoustic field with high detection ranges for onboard sensors of the carrier.

    "It’s hard to overestimate the importance of this event. The submarine began to be built in 2005, and although there have been some pauses in financing and construction halts, this lag however has allowed us to use the experience gained in operating the (lead) submarine (of that class), the St.Petersburg. The Pr.677 underwater combatant outperforms its predecessor, the Pr. 636 (improved Kilo-class) diesel-electric submarine, in major manner. We believe that the Pr.677 will be future of the (Russian) Navy's diesel-electric underwater force and hope for a large series of the submarines (of that class)," stated Admiralty Shipyards CEO Alexander Buzakov during the ceremony.


    Kronstadt to fourth generation of the Russian non-nuclear boats. The Pr. 677 and its export derivative Amur 1650 are meant to supersede the Kilo-class. Lada is more compact: with similar weapons composition (six torpedo tubes with weapons comprising 18 torpedoes and missiles), standard displacement is reduced from 2350 (for Pr. 636) to 1765 tons. Because of increased automation, crew numbers are reduced from 52 to 35 personnel. The Lada is equipped with sonar with quasi-conformal large-area antennae and towed array sonar that considerably surpasses series-produced sonars on the earlier Pr. 636 submarines.

    Speaking at the ceremony during launch of the Kronstadt, Russian Admiral Viktor Chirkov said that due to their noise levels, the earlier Kilo-class submarines have been nicknamed ‘black hole’ by the western military. Trials of the new boats have demonstrated that their noise levels are several times (four or five, as per calculations of designers) lower than that of the Kilo-class. “Given that stealth of Lada-class submarines, which can be neither seen nor heard by the enemy, has increased, this submarine may be called an invisible creature,” he continued. “The new submarine enables us to make a step forward in developing state-of-the-art underwater fleet of Russia,” Viktor Chirkov summed up.

    The Amur 1650 on offer to India has AIP based on fuel cells and the electrochemical generator will covert diesel fuel to produce hydrogen. Rubin Design Bureau CEO Igor Vilnit had earlier expressed his assurance to the Indian Navy, who are anxious to integrate indigenously produced AIP on own ships, would be helped or assistance provided for their development.
    Lada-class submarines for the Russian Navy are also planned to be equipped with AIP developed by the Rubin Design Bureau. The Pr. 677 leading ship, St.Petersburg, is now in service with the Russian Northern Fleet and

    long-term sea trials conducted since the Russian Navy flag raising in 2010 have shown that submarines of this class are suitable for operations conditions of heavy traffic in the confined waters of the Baltic, as well as blue waters of the Barents Sea and the White Sea, with access to the North Atlantic. “St.Petersburg has not only proved its characteristics, but even outclassed them”, stated Igor Vilnit during launching ceremony of the Kronstadt.


    The Kronstadt is being built as an improved Pr.677 design, the same as the third Lada-class submarine Velikiye Luki which is presently under construction at the Admiralty Shipyards. Kronstadt and Velikiye Luki have radically improved their propulsion, engineering control and navigation systems. Igor Vilnit said: “Kronstadt is superior to previous submarines in all technical parameters. Moreover, we have taken into account all required modifications of the lead submarine. Most of the series production equipment, which has passed all tests and complies with the stated technical characteristics, is now installed onboard the Kronstadt”.

    The Kronstadt is planned to be commissioned in 2019 and the Velikiye Luki in 2021. According to the Russian State Armament programme, contracts for two more Pr. 677 submarines are to be issued by the Russian MoD during next year.


    As Deputy Chief of the Russian Navy Shipbuilding Department, Captain 1 Rank Mikhail Krasnopeev, remarked: “The entire history of Admiralty Shipyards, starting from time of Peter the Great, testifies that the company is able to build unique ships. And today’s launch is a vivid confirmation of this. For Russian sailors, it is an honour to serve on such modern submarines”. He also emphasised that the Russian Navy would continue to actively develop the non-nuclear component of its submarine force. “We’ll work further to improve and induct new technologies in the construction of non-nuclear submarines, to improve the parameters of stealth and effectiveness of its armament. Special attention is paid to the training of submarines’ crews, as they will be operating the most modern equipment”, he said.

    Photos by Dmitry Sokolov


    The Lada-class submarine ‘St.Petersburg’ that is presently in service with the Russian Northern Fleet. Photo: Oleg Kuleshov


    The Lada-class submarine ‘St.Petersburg’ that is presently in service with the Russian Northern Fleet. Photo: Oleg Kuleshov

    Second Yasen-class nuclear submarine on sea trials

    Russia’s improved Yasen-class submarine, Kazan, went for sea trials for the first time on 25 September, sailing out from Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk. Kazan is the second of the Yasen-class nuclear powered fast-attack submarines, but the first modernised vessel. The leading submarine of Project 885 Severodvinsk entered service on 17 June 2014, the next six ships in the series being built under improved Project 885M (Yasen-M), characterised by the optimised hull shape and upgraded electronic warfare and automation systems. Kazan was laid on 24 July 2009 and launched on 31 March 2017, is armed with Oniks and Kalibr cruise missiles. As per the Russian Ministry of Defence Spokesperson Yasen-class submarines have the capability to operate not only against ships but also to perform deterrence functions due to its missiles, stealth features and speed.

    Photos: Oleg Kuleshov


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    Post  hoom on Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:41 pm

    OOh, different concept for an AIP from Malachite
    https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F36/
    Apparently a closed cycle gas turbine, fed from air at surface, liquid oxygen good for 2-3 weeks underwater & enough power for up to 10kt underwater.
    They've been working on this since 2010 (which either means not much progress or maybe its near maturity)

    They've produced a concept sub design
    https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F37/
    Russian Air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarine technology - Page 3 %D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%20%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F%20%D0%9F-750%D0%91
    P-750B with a displacement of about 1,450 tons belongs to the class of small submarines of coastal action. Its length is about 66 meters, width is about 7 meters, and the draft is about 5.2 meters. The maximum depth of immersion is 300 meters. The total underwater speed is 18 knots, the economic speed is 4 knots. Autonomy - up to 30 days, total cruising range - up to 4300 miles. The continuous submarine range, taking into account the VNEU, is up to 1,200 miles.

    The power plant includes a closed-cycle gas turbine engine (two 400 kW each) and a 2500 kW rowing electric motor.

    ETA 5-6 years Neutral
    https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F39/
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    Post  Gibraltar on Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:52 am

    Experiments with performance aips led almost always to firing-exploding subs.

    Oxygen needs chryogenic systems to be kept in liquid phase, which are very high energy consuming and noise producing devices.

    Don't know if they applied new nano-sponge technology in oxygen tanks for these subs. Till now is the only way I know to keep oxygen in liquid phase without chrygenics.

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