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    Fighting Corruption in Russia

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    calripson

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    Post  calripson on Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:49 pm

    "Alperovich" does not sound like an ethnic Russian name to me.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:45 pm

    calripson wrote:"Alperovich" does not sound like an ethnic Russian name to me.

    You are right. But from NATO propaganda you would think that Putin was an absolute despot. In reality
    he can't even squash a collection of bugs like this.

    Anyone paying attention will notice that capitalism is an intrinsically corrupt system. What we see in Russia
    (and many other countries) is an attempt to rig the system in the American way. Have some local politicians
    and bureaucrats in your pocket and they will rubber stamp your siphon of taxpayer money. If someone is too
    honest and blows the whistle, then have them whacked Seth Rich style and blame it on Putin.
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    Post  Regular on Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:21 pm

    calripson wrote:"Alperovich" does not sound like an ethnic Russian name to me.

    Jew unshaven
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:42 pm

    kvs wrote:

    Some family of crooks going by the name of Alperovich is engaged in brazen abuse of the legal system to rip off
    taxpayer money for their own gain.    In the case of the aqua-park they are not happy that regulations prevented them
    from making additional money off the property and want to break up the agreement they signed themselves.   To do
    this they are making up all sorts of BS claims (which are easily debunked) and even get some journalist saps to spread
    their BS around.  

    The above case points to the reality in Russia.   Putin the "tyrant" does not run every aspect of Russia and brazen
    crooks practically spit in his face and those of most Russians.    Makes one wish for the good old days of the 1930s,
    when some black sedan would visit Alperovich and his clan and round them up to the Gulag.


    Most of these oligarch days are numbered. As evident from the video, they cant stay hidden anymore.
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    Post  Regular on Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:01 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Most of these oligarch days are numbered.  As evident from the video, they cant stay hidden anymore.

    Why do you think this will happen now? He's just one out of many.
    Anyway..
    Becoming oligarch days are over and so it been for long time.
    Oligarchs will disappear eventually, but not because of the laws. They don't carry their power, wealth and influence with their children. Their fortunes end up wasted by their kids. They leave nothing but trails of dollars that turn into dust.

    For law they are fairly untouchable if they BEHAVE. Just like rich people in USA can get away with anything. Epstein stopped behaving and he died. This is reality in  Africa, Asia, Europe and so on.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:42 pm

    Regular wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Most of these oligarch days are numbered.  As evident from the video, they cant stay hidden anymore.

    Why do you think this will happen now? He's just one out of many.
    Anyway..
    Becoming oligarch days are over and so it been for long time.
    Oligarchs will disappear eventually, but not because of the laws. They don't carry their power, wealth and influence with their children. Their fortunes end up wasted by their kids. They leave nothing but trails of dollars that turn into dust.

    For law they are fairly untouchable if they BEHAVE. Just like rich people in USA can get away with anything. Epstein stopped behaving and he died.  This is reality in  Africa, Asia, Europe and so on.

    Many oligarchs lost their wealth and power in Russia. Yes, there are others but they try to play somewhat nice. As soon as they step out of bounds like as you mentioned Epstein, they are done for.
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    Post  calripson on Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:59 pm

    I talk to a lot of Russians, from business people to old grannies living in the provinces. Their general take is that corruption in Russia is not getting better. As an example, one gentleman cited the fact that the head of Russian Railways (a state corporation I believe) makes $150,000 a day. He said Putin was dismissive when asked about this. Is it true that the head of a state corporation makes $150,000 a day???
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    Post  Kimppis on Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:30 pm

    Well, Anatoly Karlin, who I consider to be the number one Russia watcher/expert, seems to agree with that assessment.

    [Disclaimer for those who will get triggered: 1. Karlin likes Putin overall, 2. he has very convincingly destroyed most anti-Russian propaganda tropes as far as I'm concerned and 3. he actually moved BACK to Russia a few years ago, though I don't think he's talking about personal anecdotes when it comes to corruption anyway, he's more of a facts and statistics kind of guy.]

    Interestingly however, if you read his blog posts from pre-2012, he basically concluded that Transparency International's "perception" indexes etc. were outdated BS, and that Russia wasn't particularly corrupt by global and Eastern European standards. But then something happened, don't know what changed his mind. He has never written about that in depth for some reason, or maybe I have missed it. Either way, nowadays he thinks that Russia is generally quite (very) corrupt.

    Okay, so I did some googling, and I think he based his views on this:
    https://www.transparency.org/research/gcb/gcb_2015_16/0

    That is the Global Corruption Barometer, sounds relatively objective and is certainly better than "perceptions" of foreign business leaders, or whatever.

    Q. Did you or any member of your household make an unofficial payment or gift when using these services over the past 12 months? The road police, public agencies issuing official documents, the civil courts, public education (primary or secondary), public education (vocation), public medical care, public agencies in charge of unemployment benefits or any other public agencies in charge of other social security benefits?


    Well, Russia (34%!) is among the worst "performers" in "Europe," with Ukraine (38%), Romania (29%) and Kazakhstan (29%). However, that's not hugely different from Lithuania (24%), Hungary (22%) and Serbia (22%).


    Asia: China isn't much better at 26%, and countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia are more corrupt, to say nothing of Sub-Saharan Africa or Mexico (52%!). Latin America in general is in the 20-30% range, even relatively "clean" and "democratic (tm)" Uruguay and Chile. Brazil is a curious case though, at 11% it's somehow one of the least corrupt countries in the region, despite having a very high inequality. What's up with that? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Portugal (3%) is doing surprisingly well, too.  

    Western Europe? 1-5% generally, even Italy (7%) and Greece (10%) are not particularly corrupt.

    ---------------------------------------

    I suppose the common trope that Putin has managed to considerably improve almost everything else but corruption is probably quite accurate. That said, it has certainly improved since the 90s in any case, no doubt about that. One positive thing too is that corrupt Russian officials are probably *relatively* loyal to the country. Western media is clearly very selective as well, and somehow manages to exaggerate the problem, as always. But "USSR-loving" boomers and oligarchs need to die off first. And of course Russia is always going to have regions like Chechenia and Dagestan. It takes time.

    One last point regarding inequality, which is not the same thing as corruption, obviously: Russian Gini-index is around the global average, and it's still steadily decreasing (i.e. getting better), despite it already being quite a bit lower than the US figure. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Brazil's Gini is very high.

    Kvs is going to disagree, as many large-scale projects are not (always?) behind schedule, unlike in the West, or something like that. I of course hope he's correct...
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    Post  PhSt on Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:20 pm


    I have a question. for quite some time now, i have been subscribed to the Russia24 channel on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/Russia24TV

    Now i noticed that majority of the videos in this channel that features politics in Russia has a lot of Negative votes/ thumbs down. This makes me wonder, do Russian youtuber simply have a negative attitude towards politicians (specifically Putin's government) or is this the work of NATO influence operations to make people think that Russians dislike Putin and his government? I have a feeling that a NATO troll factory located in Ukraine is responsible for these down votes. It is not normal for videos featuring the Russian government to have 20% positive and 80% negative votes when Putin's government has majority favourable ratings inside Russia.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:44 pm

    A couple of things:
    - Russians are pessimistic people. They are never happy no matter if the world is handed to them on a plate, they will always find something to bitch about. It's something common among eastern Europeans.
    - Corruption is decreasing but the reason why they view it isn't because sometimes they are told it isn't. Or maybe that they feel it isn't. Using example of Russian railways owner is silly because the question is - how does they know exactly how much he makes? $150,000 a day is a rather generic sum.  Why not $145,156.12 a day?  And the evidence is located where?

    I recall watching a Vesti news article about eastern Russian city near China recently (couple months old now) and they interviewed this teacher who pushed to have a particular garden built. The teacher mentioned the locals all were initially against if because and I paraphrase: "people will ruin it. People will kill the birds. People will steal the flowers".  In the end, none of that happened. One guy did take some flowers but police dealt with it quickly. Since then things were fine.  That's just how pessimism works. Russians love to hate and love their nation and it's people at the same time.  This derives from the fact many are still butthurt the USSR doesnt exist anymore.

    Plus, Russia's main anti corruption dealings is only a few years old now.  And many high profile people are in jail. But you can't fix 30 years with just two - four years.....

    As for YouTube ratings. Ignore them. Ukrainians and other eastern Europeans watch Russian news online and love to down vote anything. Vesti news on other hand is opposite. Lots of likes.
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    Post  kvs on Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:25 am

    I have yet to see from Karlin or any other source a real quantification of corruption levels in the squeaky clean NATO west and
    Russia. Without proper metrics and a reference frame, it is all just subjective BS.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:29 am

    kvs wrote:I have yet to see from Karlin or any other source a real quantification of corruption levels in the squeaky clean NATO west and
    Russia.  Without proper metrics and a reference frame, it is all just subjective BS.


    Yeap.

    Anyone can claim anything, especially when they don't need to provide evidence to their claims.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:44 am

    Kimppis wrote:But "USSR-loving" boomers and oligarchs need to die off first.

    Agreed...maybe not die off but until the younger (post Soviet/post 90's) generation takes over the reigns properly, you will have this "rose tinted glasses" perception that everything was better in the USSR...what's funny. most of these people were probably just kids or teens during that period
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:31 am

    In the west we are supposed to have democracy where the people decide... but sadly it is the rich and powerful that have control... it is clearly shown by recent US politics.

    Large US companies have more power than the US president. Media companies are supposed to give people the truth but the president of the US doesn't trust the media and communicates with his followers on a website called twitter because his tweets are not edited by some media company with an agenda... that works both for him and against him of course.

    Corruption is a problem everywhere, why wouldn't there be problems in Russia?

    New Zealand often comes out on top or in the top ten regarding least corrupt places on the planet, but we still blindly support the US in its invasions around the planet and still suck up to uncle sam when we can and we think China and Russia are bad because America tells us that is what we should think.
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    Post  Kimppis on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:20 am

    kvs wrote:I have yet to see from Karlin or any other source a real quantification of corruption levels in the squeaky clean NATO west and
    Russia.  Without proper metrics and a reference frame, it is all just subjective BS.


    Western Europe? 1-5% generally, even Italy (7%) and Greece (10%) are not particularly corrupt.

    Seems to be quite straightforward to me. Have you paid a bribe over the past 12 months? Yes or no? No "perceptions" BS.

    I do agree, however, that the issue is very complicated and it certainly seems some of the corruption in the West has been very successfully "institutionalized" and whatnot, especially and increasingly so in the US.  

    PhSt wrote:
    I have a question. for quite some time now, i have been subscribed to the Russia24 channel on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/Russia24TV

    Now i noticed that majority of the videos in this channel that features politics in Russia has a lot of Negative votes/ thumbs down. This makes me wonder, do Russian youtuber simply have a negative attitude towards politicians (specifically Putin's government) or is this the work of NATO influence operations to make people think that Russians dislike Putin and his government? I have a feeling that a NATO troll factory located in Ukraine is responsible for these down votes. It is not normal for videos featuring the Russian government to have 20% positive and 80% negative votes when Putin's government has majority favourable ratings inside Russia.

    How are the comments? Actually Medvedev's government isn't particularly popular. Russia24 is the most mainstream of mediums in Russia, correct? So it's probably less popular among young people, who tend to watch online videos, though that doesn't make most of them anti-Russian liberals. Old people watch TV -- and Russia24.
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    Post  kvs on Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:11 pm

    Kimppis wrote:
    kvs wrote:I have yet to see from Karlin or any other source a real quantification of corruption levels in the squeaky clean NATO west and
    Russia.  Without proper metrics and a reference frame, it is all just subjective BS.


    Western Europe? 1-5% generally, even Italy (7%) and Greece (10%) are not particularly corrupt.

    Seems to be quite straightforward to me. Have you paid a bribe over the past 12 months? Yes or no? No "perceptions" BS.

    I do agree, however, that the issue is very complicated and it certainly seems some of the corruption in the West has been very successfully "institutionalized" and whatnot, especially and increasingly so in the US.  

    PhSt wrote:
    I have a question. for quite some time now, i have been subscribed to the Russia24 channel on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/Russia24TV

    Now i noticed that majority of the videos in this channel that features politics in Russia has a lot of Negative votes/ thumbs down. This makes me wonder, do Russian youtuber simply have a negative attitude towards politicians (specifically Putin's government) or is this the work of NATO influence operations to make people think that Russians dislike Putin and his government? I have a feeling that a NATO troll factory located in Ukraine is responsible for these down votes. It is not normal for videos featuring the Russian government to have 20% positive and 80% negative votes when Putin's government has majority favourable ratings inside Russia.

    How are the comments? Actually Medvedev's government isn't particularly popular. Russia24 is the most mainstream of mediums in Russia, correct? So it's probably less popular among young people, who tend to watch online videos, though that doesn't make most of them anti-Russian liberals. Old people watch TV -- and Russia24.

    Sorry, your "straightforward" is BS:

    1) It does not account for propaganda self-image. In NATO, citizens are reluctant to admit that anything is wrong with their
    countries and that they engaged in criminal activity. You do know that paying bribes is a crime in most NATO countries
    and not just taking them? By contrast, in Russia you will have people lying that they paid bribes to fit the 5th column narratives
    and when they volunteered to pay basically species of bribes in the form of gifts, which is a traditional thing that actually applies
    to the Orient and to the Middle East.

    2) Petty bribes and gifts do not compare to massive corporate corruption:



    Russia builds a full blown nuclear waste reprocessing plant for 240 million dollars which is operating today, but in the USA the contractor
    blows 7 billion dollars and demands another 15 billion dollars. To you this may be pure virgin innocence, but to me,
    who knows something about project planning, this is proof of 3rd world type corruption. No project is launched where the cost
    uncertainty is around 200%. Modern civil engineering projects can be pinned down to the $100,000 dollar range even for large
    projects. Every aspect from number of workers, to their exact tasks and the time it takes (with a buffer) and the cost of materials
    and their delivery is accounted for. Demanding $15 billion extra after a project starts proves that there was no real project plan.
    Non completion of projects is an establish graft and money laundering scam. The municipality of Rome routinely starts affordable
    housing projects that are never completed. All that money is going somewhere and it ain't back to the taxpayer.

    I dare Karlin and anyone else to provide equivalent cases of large scale corporate corruption in Russia. Don't waste my time with
    semantics about gifts.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:20 am

    I agree with what you are saying kvs, but there is also the problem of playing bastard.

    When you bid for a contract then generally the lowest bidder wins so a fake plan that seems to show a much cheaper build will always win the contract, but once you have the contract you actually can't afford to meet the contract in terms of cost because there will be no margin and no profit so you wont be able to pay any of the contractors or subcontractors, you wont be able to buy the materials and hire the machinery you need to do the job.

    Of course a lot of it is graft... my brother was doing a bit of labouring in the UK in the 1980s just to earn a bit of money between jobs, and he said it was a terrible mess. They would hire 100 people to do the job and 40 would be locals who punch in and then immediately disappear to some other part of the construction site and play soccer all day. The remaining 60 guys would be Kiwis and Aussies and South Africans and Canadians... basically foreigners who would actually do the work.

    The amusing thing is that the foreman bills the company for 200 workers and pockets the wages for the 100 invisible imaginary workers...

    One time, when they were demolishing some council flats all the locals actually turned up for work and all insisted on smashing down the bathrooms. My brother was suspicious and watched them for a bit and they were carefully taking out the tiles in the bathrooms because a guy in a van out the back of the site was giving them a pound per tile in good condition.

    No... no corruption in the west... do you even know any trades people?

    Do you know what a cash job implies?

    But no... it is those second and third world countries that have problems with corruption... in the west you can vote in anyone you like but as both major parties are bribed by big business what makes you think you get any say at all?

    Corruption is everywhere, and is never going away.

    People in positions of power use their power to get more money and people with money use their money to get what they want from the people who are supposed to control who gets what and make things fair.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:47 am

    To be clear I am not denying there is corruption in Russia. But I am tired of hearing about how singular it is without any proof.
    From what I can tell, the west has gotten good at hiding large scale corruption in plain sight and making sure that the petty kind you find
    in the 3rd world is not apparent. So cops don't shake down motorists for some cash. But cops do go to bed with the mafia
    as happened in Quebec where the drug dealing biker gangs were clearly flipping cops to serve their interests.

    So for me the question is actual corruption and not optics. Russia would not be ascending if it was as ridden with corruption
    as NATO propaganda would have everyone believe. As I posted before, corruption will always exist in human societies since
    humans are the sort of species that engages in such activity. But how much corruption is "normal" is not clear since nobody,
    including Karlin, is actually doing a good job studying and reporting on this issue. It's too politically sensitive and obviously a
    propaganda tool useful for regime change operations.

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    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:00 am

    Kremlin: $169 mln stolen out of $1.4 bln allocated for Vostochny spaceport construction

    https://tass.com/science/1088035
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:09 am

    George1 wrote:Kremlin: $169 mln stolen out of $1.4 bln allocated for Vostochny spaceport construction

    https://tass.com/science/1088035

    Good article, but it kind of misses the target as it deals with corruption in the original build (for which Spetstroi was disbanded) but gives the impression the corruption is ongoing.

    Subsequent article: https://tass.com/science/1088232

    The corruption cases relate to 2014 when mass violations were exposed at the construction site, the Roscosmos chief said.

    "The construction of the spaceport’s second stage is based on completely different principles. The process has been placed under the treasury’s control and funds are allocated through the treasury’s letter of credit. So far, we have no grounds today to get concerned that money is spent ineffectively. There are no alarming facts either,"

    That said, they need to get these corrupt MFers and nails their severed heads to the wall for the public to p!ss on Twisted Evil
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    Post  kvs on Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:59 pm

    The Vostochny spaceport case demonstrates that there are active measures against corruption in Russia. Expecting no corruption to
    ever appear is unreasonable. In fact, in the precious NATO west, such cases are laundered with all sorts of bureaucratic tricks and the
    corrupt contractors get away with murder. In Russia, they are busted and relatively hard. Of course, I would like to see them lined
    up against the wall and riddled with machine gun bullets, but such dreams do not take away from the fact that Russia is one of the few
    countries where the government is not a complete corporate whore.

    The 169 million out of 1.4 billion is 12.1%. That is actually a very small number. Corrupt cost-overuns in large projects in the NATO
    west are routinely in the multiple 100% range. For example, the California high speed rail debacle and the Berlin airport makeover
    farce.



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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:07 am

    As an individual American voter with one vote... which may or may not be counted as a legitimate vote in any particular election... when the people who contribute to the election fund end up getting positions in government they are not qualified or capable of doing, or they get jobs like US ambassador... then you have to ask about all the large financial contributors... the ones that don't want a government job, but want to make their company earn more money or to sabotage the opposition companies... is that not corruption?


    America is being destroyed by corruption at the highest level and the US media, which is supposed to be a check or balance for a free society is busy pointing its finger at China and Russia and saying things are bad here now but at least those guys aren't in charge... like they want to be in charge to start with... I would want to run the US as much as I would like to run a whore house in the Vatican... and that is not at all.

    To run a country you have to care about all its people... not just the billionaires.

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