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    Russian VTOL fighter development

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:50 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:in absence of CTOL  com;romising  wont be needed?
    You have a wonderful way of misunderstanding everything I say don't you?  thumbsup

    the idea of VSTOL is nto to take off on long lanes but as short as possible. lol1 lol1 lol1



    S
    Su-57 would take off from K full load on the short runs... with 3500 km range and 4 x R37M for instance. Or loaded as a bomb truck if needed.

    Short take off mean low payload and short range. And on Kz you take 18 Su-57? 14?




    wat so with Su-57 no extra ships would go with carrier?!
    You need far less AD cover in form of expensive frigates and missile destroyers if you have proper AEW and long range fighters on board.


    what is proper AEW? in netcentric warfare small groupings of drones does the same job. Missile destroyers you dotn need so many as in US groups. simply to fight CSG you use Kiznahl. Otherwise you dream midway battles.

    Airwing is for assigments like Arctic cover or Syrian style wars. Or Africa interventions. Not full scale Midway battles.







    A TAKR (Kuznetsov or new light carrier if I am not wrong) does not need STOVL, those would deploy on LHDs... or am I missing something?

    you do. Timeline. Air-wing form Kuz is aging too. In 2030s will be obsolete. New fighters will be required.





    Have to talk to Vlad urgently to prevent this disaster... lol1 lol1

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:32 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Short take off  mean low payload and short range. And on Kz you take 18 Su-57? 14?
    You mean short take off as in STOVL? The Su-57 with izd. 30 will have close to 35 ton thrust... you could almost launch it vertically like a rocket Razz
    As to the capacity of the K with such plane, it should be similar to the Su-33, with the advantage that it is shorter. All depends of course on the wing folding mechanism, this we don't know yet.

    you do. Timeline. Air-wing form Kuz is aging too. In 2030s will be obsolete. New fighters will be required.
    MiG-33Ks are there. Su-57 available. STOVL is to give fixed wing aircraft to LHDs and similar.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:31 pm

    Yak-43 multi-role V/STOL fighter (project)


    In 1983-84 the Yakovlev OKB embarked on the design of a next-generation multi-role V/STOL fighter intended to follow the
    Yak-41 M. In its general layout it had a marked resemblance to the Lockheed Martin
    F-22 Raptor
    (albeit the latter was designed to a somewhat later time-scale
    and had no VTOL capability).

    Like its predecessor, the Yak-43 was to have a cruise engine and separate lift jets; these were to be supplemented by an auxiliary combustion
    chamber in the nose provided with air bleed piped from the main engine.

    The latter was to be a derivative of the Kuznetsov NK-321 three-shaft afterburning turbofan with a take-off rating of 24,980 kgp (55,070
    lbst; four such engines power the Tupolev Tu-160 strategic bomber).

    \
    The Yak-43 promised a considerable improvement on the Yak-41 M in performance and combat capabilities. The wings of
    bigger area ensured greater agility; the increased fuel tankage afforded a longer combat mission radius, the aircraft would be
    capable of carrying a bigger weapons loadand would have a reduced radar signature.

    However, with the Yak-41 M (Yak-141) shelved, the new project had no chances of reaching the hardware stage.


    ->>> my comment now is has  russia  russia  russia

    OKB Yakovlev
    А HISTORYOF ТНЕ DESIGN BUREAU AND ITS AIRCRAFT

    Yefim Gordon
    Dmitriy Komissarov
    and Sergey Komissarov

    page 346




    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Short take off  mean low payload and short range. And on Kz you take 18 Su-57? 14?
    You mean short take off as in STOVL? The Su-57 with izd. 30 will have close to 35 ton thrust... you could almost launch it vertically like a rocket Razz
    As to the capacity of the K with such plane, it should be similar to the Su-33, with the advantage that it is shorter. All depends of course on the wing folding mechanism, this we don't know yet.



    1) sure, min take off (check Russian wiki) is 350m. With ski-jump but Kuz has300 m or so Smile
    2) bigger plane less space 1,5/2 more than F-35B - smaller airwing
    3) no need to build for one Kuz 24 Su-57 since you got new fighter doing the same job cheaper per unit.



    LMFS wrote:
    you do. Timeline. Air-wing form Kuz is aging too. In 2030s will be obsolete. New fighters will be required.
    MiG-33Ks are there. Su-57 available. STOVL is to give fixed wing aircraft to LHDs and similar.


    Su-57 is not available yet. Kuz will stay till 2040s AFAIK. TAKRs will IMHO go in series dure their universal applications: 3 roles in one ship due to modularity. Just cheaper option. Imagine - Mistral, AC and helo-carrier in one + command ship russia russia russia

    The difference is displacement. Su-57 simply cannot go to 40-50k ships innumbers. Too big, too small numers can be embarked.



    BTW Putin's green light, Borison support proves they didnt make brain-storming 10 times before making decisions ?   unshaven unshaven unshaven
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:40 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Yak-43 multi-role V/STOL fighter (project)






    In 1983-84 the Yakovlev OKB embarked on the design of a next-generation multi-role V/STOL fighter intended to follow the
    Yak-41 M. In its general layout it had a marked resemblance to the Lockheed Martin
    F-22 Raptor
    (albeit the latter was designed to a somewhat later time-scale
    and had no VTOL capability).

    Like its predecessor, the Yak-43 was to have a cruise engine and separate lift jets; these were to be supplemented by an auxiliary combustion
    chamber in the nose provided with air bleed piped from the main engine.

    The latter was to be a derivative of the Kuznetsov NK-321 three-shaft afterburning turbofan with a take-off rating of 24,980 kgp (55,070
    lbst; four such engines power the Tupolev Tu-160 strategic bomber).

    \
    The Yak-43 promised a considerable improvement on the Yak-41 M in performance and combat capabilities. The wings of
    bigger area ensured greater agility; the increased fuel tankage afforded a longer combat mission radius, the aircraft would be
    capable of carrying a bigger weapons loadand would have a reduced radar signature.

    However, with the Yak-41 M (Yak-141) shelved, the new project had no chances of reaching the hardware stage.
    That combustion chamber in the nose is a smart idea, since it allows to compensate  thrust at the tail more efficiently. Could allow better placement of main engine.

    Also using the NK-32 makes sense, as PapaDragon says they have a modernized version now.


    1) sure, min take off (check Russian wiki) is 350m. With ski-jump but Kuz has300 m or so Smile
    2) bigger plane less space 1,5/2 more than F-35B - smaller airwing
    3) no need to build for one Kuz 24 Su-57 since you got new fighter doing the same job cheaper per unit.

    1) This has nothing to do with STOBAR values, check here:
    http://cppcms.com/files/skijump/
    2) No, it depends on how well you use the space. Even if the footprint is much smaller but the available spaces are not enough to fit more planes, you remain with same numbers. Besides, we don't know the footprint of a navalized Su-57 against a F-35. Look the wing folding:
    Russian VTOL fighter development - Page 4 Servei13
    Russian VTOL fighter development - Page 4 Serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.ausairpower.net%2FV-MF%2FKnAAPO-Su-33-4
    Don't have an exact measure but I'm pretty sure the folded Su-33 is narrower than the F-35C
    3) That could be discussed of course, STVOL is not cheap. MiG-29K is also available.

    Su-57 is not available yet. Kuz will stay till 2040s AFAIK. TAKRs will IMHO go in series dure their universal applications: 3 roles in one ship due to modularity.  Just cheaper option.  Imagine - Mistral, AC and helo-carrier in one + command ship  russia  russia  russia  

    The difference is displacement. Su-57 simply cannot go to 40-50k ships innumbers.  Too big, too small numers can be embarked.
    Su-57 is available to develop a carrier version.

    BTW I am confused, for me the Kuz is a TAKR.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:31 pm

    UAC discusses with the Ministry of Defense the creation of a plane with vertical take-off


    The head of the corporation Yuri Slyusar did not specify the terms of the creation of such an aircraft, noting that it is premature to talk about this before receiving technical instructions from the customer

    GELENDZHIK / Krasnodar Territory /, September 7. / TASS /. The parameters of the plane with vertical take-off are discussed with the Russian Defense Ministry, the head of the United Aircraft Corporation UAC Yury Slyusar said on Friday.

    "[The project] at the stage of communication with the customer in the person of the Ministry of Defense, which is responsible for the requirements for this aircraft.There is such a theme, we are now actively communicating what kind of aircraft is needed, with what characteristics," he said at the exhibition "Gidroaviasalon-2018" .

    Slyusar noted that a "virtual design bureau, a kind of cloud" was created inside the UAC, which unites the forces of all design schools in Russia. Within its framework, work is also being distributed to create promising machines. The head of the corporation did not specify the timing of the creation of such an aircraft, noting that it is premature to talk about this before receiving technical instructions from the customer.

    Earlier, Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov said that on behalf of President Vladimir Putin, work has been carried out from last year on a prototype of a completely new vertical takeoff aircraft.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5535599
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:16 pm

    Good info Gunship, this means UAC will now receive information to start preliminary design estimations, possible project structure and maybe discuss what company within the corporation can be tasked with the development. Will be not easy, with two companies (Yakovlev and MiG) in need of funds. Yak would be the logical bureau for such design but MiG is needing also a deal, maybe if MiG-41 is given the go (don't know if there are funds for this beyond maybe preliminary studies) then they could have some relatively logical outcome. Without clear decisions in terms of carrier strategy it is difficult to calculate what number of planes will be bought and without that you cannot know the project's economic viability. This is IMO the biggest project risk right now.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:45 pm

    LMFS wrote:Good info Gunship, this means UAC will now receive information to start preliminary design estimations, possible project structure and maybe discuss what company within the corporation can be tasked with the development. Will be not easy, with two companies (Yakovlev and MiG) in need of funds. Yak would be the logical bureau for such design but MiG is needing also a deal, maybe if MiG-41 is given the go (don't know if there are funds for this beyond maybe preliminary studies) then they could have some relatively logical outcome. Without clear decisions in terms of carrier strategy it is difficult to calculate what number of planes will be bought and without that you cannot know the project's economic viability. This is IMO the biggest project risk right now.

    I dont think it will be any specific company - as they say "virtual teams" so Sukhoi,MiG perhaps Yak too. Perhaps it will have MiG or Yak badge but anyway its all OAK Razz Razz Razz
    Look MiG-35 is in fact only morally outdated but still a good fighter. Though they hibernated it. I guess it is as a backup plan in deck aviation if this program fails.


    new fighter dont have to be also only deck based. Mind that Soviets wanted to have "front fighter" in STOL configuration, so perhaps concept is back yet with technology 40 years more advanced. My educated guess thatit's gonna be a light fighter with good maneuverability, V/STOL or STOL and less weight of perfect stealth . I.e. not to compromise fight performances with stealth.


    For Kuz it would be 30+ anyway lol1 lol1 lol1

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    Post  LMFS on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:49 pm

    A present to Gunship: Yakovlev article chanting the virtues of STOVL. Worth reading! thumbsup

    https://www.aviapanorama.ru/2018/08/korabelnye-samolety-na-puti-vybora-razumnoj-alternativy/
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:A present to Gunship: Yakovlev article chanting the virtues of STOVL. Worth reading! thumbsup


    VSTOL on the way of smart choice. I like that respekt respekt respekt Interesting thought I find about VSTOL fighter -Frlanker size... Well imagine u-57 "VSTL navalized" . Indeed notany could fit to CVN but depending on tasks could be sufficient.

    The disadvantage is that we couldn't talk about them in LMFS lol1 lol1 lol1

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    Post  LMFS on Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:10 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:The disadvantage is that we couldn't talk about them in LMFS  lol1  lol1  lol1
    No but you would manage to talk about it on the Su-57 one! lol1 lol1
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    Russian VTOL fighter development - Page 4 Empty A present to Gunship: Yakovlev article chanting the virtues of STOVL. Worth reading!

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:32 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:The disadvantage is that we couldn't talk about them in LMFS  lol1  lol1  lol1
    No but you would manage to talk about it on the Su-57 one! lol1 lol1

    Thx great idea respekt respekt respekt
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:30 am

    Since thsi is supposed to be VSTOL thread  and not OmphaOmpha natives support thread let me present you models, mockups form Yak design bureau.  This was a concept of last Yak's proposal for  VSTOL fighter.

    Differently designed then Yak-41 family. Looking similar to future Korean fighter KFX ;-)

    Characteristics on pair with MiG-29k but longer range. And of course VSTOL.  Mind that Yak-141 was supposed to be able to start  STOL in 70m MTOW (MiG-195m+skijump), wiki says about experimental 6m STOL. Taking into account Vertical landing this makes ship requirements really modest.





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    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:40 am

    Even the maket can't land on a table properly lol1 lol1 russia respekt

    Not a surprise it was the last yak proposal pwnd lol1
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    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:26 pm

    I posted in the high speed helicopter thread but arguably this Kamov concept could be considered a new VSTOL plane
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:55 pm

    hoom wrote:I posted in the high speed helicopter thread but arguably this Kamov concept could be considered a new VSTOL plane


    wow and can you consider helicopter plane?

    Russians call this a "perspective helicopter"
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    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:10 am

    wow and can you consider helicopter plane?
    One with big wings, jet thrust (possibly limiting ability to hover) & claimed 700km/h top speed yes.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:12 am

    hoom wrote:
    wow and can you consider helicopter plane?
    One with big wings, jet thrust (possibly limiting ability to hover) & claimed 700km/h top speed yes.

    700km/h ? never heard Kamov claimed anything thet. 500km/h was max. No jets inany Russian prospective helos either.

    Anyway helo is helo not VSTOL fighter.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:05 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Since thsi is supposed to be VSTOL thread  and not OmphaOmpha natives support thread let me present you models, mockups form Yak design bureau.  This was a concept of last Yak's proposal for  VSTOL fighter.
    Cool, thanks!

    What are supposed to be those circular holes on the top of the fuselage???

    Edit: it seems the Amis did indeed take a look a this concept:
    Russian VTOL fighter development - Page 4 X-32-a12

    Characteristics on pair with MiG-29k but longer range. And of course VSTOL.  Mind that Yak-141 was supposed to be able to start  STOL in 70m MTOW (MiG-195m+skijump), wiki says about experimental 6m STOL. Taking into account Vertical landing this makes ship requirements really modest.
    If you equal payloads (5 tons less in the Yak) then the MiG-29 takes-off comfortably from the 95 m runs. Well, it may need to be seen if it could not better the STOL performance of the Yak  lol1  lol1

    GarryB wrote:From a Backfire the Kinzhals range is likely to be about 1,500km so it would be able to launch both at the same target group... and firing 10 missiles would be a more effective attack than just firing 4 missiles.
    Range from Tu-22 is 3000 km, which means the range for launching from the MiG-31 includes the range of the carrier....

    hoom wrote:I posted in the high speed helicopter thread but arguably this Kamov concept could be considered a new VSTOL plane
    Hahaha, I argued something similar on the PSV thread. A helo with jet propulsion, canards and big lifting wing is dangerously close to being a plane with a VERY big lifting fan for STOVL operations pwnd

    The same way you can say it is not a plane but a helicopter you could come to the conclusion that F-35B is a helicopter too! lol1  lol1
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    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:03 am

    700km/h ? never heard Kamov claimed anything thet. 500km/h was max. No jets inany Russian prospective helos either.
    700km/h is the number quoted with that concept.
    I personally haven't spotted that number on the slides though.

    No jets?
    Russian VTOL fighter development - Page 4 25-6800701-dw6zaonwvli
    Looks like jets to me.
    Maybe its technically a geared ducted fan on the front of a more conventional chopper turbine but it appears to be a high-bypass turbofan.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:23 pm

    Me wonders how Russians will approach VSTOL requirements?

    (1) 1 "forward" engine light fighter, with zmall size and emtpty weight ~10t?

    Advantage: you can fit many on CVN/LHDs and should be relatively cheap,
    Disadvantage: range (in Russian land or sea conditions range counts), payload can be as crap as MiG-29k


    (2) large potent 2"forward engines" fighter yet  VSTOL   (imagine VSTOL Su-57).  


    Advantage: range, payload, speed,
    Disadvantage:  size- naval version (but since anyway Kuz takes 24 fighters, 24-30 large VSTOLS could do same job even better) , price (relatively high)












    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Since thsi is supposed to be VSTOL thread  and not OmphaOmpha natives support thread let me present you models, mockups form Yak design bureau.  This was a concept of last Yak's proposal for  VSTOL fighter.
    Cool, thanks!

    (1) What are supposed to be those circular holes on the top of the fuselage???
    (2) Edit: it seems the Amis did indeed take a look a this concept:

    (1) Vertical lift engines
    (2) I'd say similar requirements similar shape. Look Brahmos II/ Waverider)


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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:25 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Maybe its technically a geared ducted fan on the front of a more conventional chopper turbine but it appears to be a high-bypass turbofan.

    if thets 10-15 years in future concept then indeed  many things can happen. and it's called VSTOL fighter?  or helicopter?

    BTW mind to send link to this presentation? thx
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:51 pm

    Turkey will not be receiving f35, and they planned to equip a few F35B (the STOVL version) in their new LHD (based on the spanish amphibious assault ship/ light aircraft carrier Juan Carlos).

    I was thinking, maybe they could be interested in participating together with Russia to the development of a new STOVL aircraft.

    I did not read anything recently, but on the summer last year Russia announced that work for the design and development of such aircrafts has really been included in the state rearmament program.

    It is not something that could be ready in a couple of years, and having a preproduction aircraft at the end of the 2020s (e.g. 2028 or 2029) would already be challenging.

    However I am sure that the Yakovlev design bureau would appreciate additional investment from another country.

    I still don't believe it should be a priority for the russian armed forces, however if the work is paid by turkey....
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:03 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Turkey will not be receiving f35, and they planned to equip a few F35B (the STOVL version) in their new LHD (based on the spanish amphibious assault ship/ light aircraft carrier Juan Carlos).

    I was thinking, maybe they could be interested in participating together with Russia to the development of a new STOVL aircraft.

    I did not read anything recently, but on the summer last year Russia announced that work for the design and development of such aircrafts has really been included in the state rearmament program.

    It is not something that could be ready in a couple of years, and having a preproduction aircraft at the end of the 2020s (e.g. 2028 or 2029) would already be challenging.

    However I am sure that the Yakovlev design bureau would appreciate additional investment from another country.

    I still don't believe it should be a priority for the russian armed forces, however if the work is paid by turkey....

    VOTL you mean? Yes, Putin apparently demanded to make it a priority project and that it was supported in defense budget for 2027. Question is who is designing and making it? Very little info on it probably because project is rather sensitive at the moment. I presume it is Yakovlev due to their experience with Yak-38 and 141 plus their participation in F-35 program.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:59 am

    Or they could save themselves a small fortune and just buy Ka-52Ks and put them on their carriers...
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:Or they could save themselves a small fortune and just buy Ka-52Ks and put them on their carriers...

    It depends on the application. VTOL jets are literally death traps for human pilots, no need to risk human pilots life and limb for that capability...however a smaller (in the 5-10 ton range) but capable VTOL UAV/UCAV aircraft seems feasible and reasonable.

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