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    Value of goods

    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51

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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:42 pm

    Companies grow and when they dominate the market they can crush any small company opposition

    Consumers seem to be the evil guys. They can go to a butchery, bakery, fish market, fruit market or go to a shop that offers all of that. The majority seems to want to spare time and money and crush the small shops, unless they specialize and get really good in a certain niche and sell it online.  

    give someone a loan with the knowledge that they could never pay you back

    Find a guy with that knowledge and you can close the banks and insurance companies the next day. Because every consumer with some savings would know where to invest and what companies will go bankrupt. Finance use models that measure risk of default. The reason for the Great Recession is that the banks underestimated that risk by a big margin. The original problem is assymetry of information. Credit taker never tells everything the bank, so the bank can't perfectly estimate the probability of getting the credit repayed. The knowledge is assymetrical. In the times of transparency, the assymetry isn't big, but when the years of fat cows come and everything looks rosy, high growth can fuel even less perspective projects. The problem is when the unexpected recession strikes and they bankrupt.

    So do you think that solution for hunger in Africa is giving people fish, rather then teaching them how to fish?

    There was a cleaning action in my town every year when I was in high school and my class had to clean the school backyard. I swept all of the cigarette butts in front of the old army barracks. The next day freshmen came as usually and threw the butts on the floor again. So next year the schoolmaster said there will be no more cleaning actions, because we're only giving excuse to the polluters. It's always like this, either somebody cares too little, either too much. The point is that we're too old to be romantic and expect that we'll stop the bad guys by setting an example. The least thing we could have done was letting them watch the dirty floor, if not telling them to clean or putting a warning sign. Being a bastard is about effectively solving the problem in the long run, not about not caring.

    First of all it is easier to say than to do

    Still you haven't answered me. Will the company benefit more from the ambitious guy in the short-term or the family guy in the long term? What kind of message to the other young workers is when the company brags that their ex employee has found a successful work abroad? Will they attract more talented guys or more less talented, that care more about having some secure job and prioritizing free time?

    a dishonest person might shop them so they can get their job or promotion

    So it's not about honesty. An ambitious guy will risk more than his current position, if he turns a blind eye.

    But if everyone gets high salaries then the prices of everything will explode.

    Sounds like Switzerland or Norway, yet their purchasing power is skyrocketing vs Africa.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:11 pm

    I wanted to learn , if there was an easy way to find value of goods

    Marx was the last who talked about value. He's broken the price into a reproductive price, that just sums all the costs, and the profit. So P = C + profit. He wanted to cancel the profit, so prices would be more fair. No profit means no exploatation, so we're talking about socialism now.

    After him, in the late 19th century, new school of economic thought was predominant - marginalism. They believed in preferences of consumers. Everything is subjective. Blue T-shirt and pink T-shirt cost both 5 $, but for man the pink one is worth maybe 1 $, so that's how much is he willing to pay max. Maybe costs of production are higher, but if the shop is in the military base and there are only men around, price will have to be 1 $ and the shop will have to cover the loss with profit at blue T-shirts.

    Stopping exploitation will not alone save humanity from disaster .

    No, it will cause one. We see what abolishing capitalism looks like in N. Korea.

    We need to stop wars .

    So how do you stop disasters like Rwandan genocide if not with military intervention and invasion?

    Stop growth .

    Value of goods  - Page 2 Sg10

    If you see capitalism and it's billions of " profits " as  good.

    Why would a company invest in the technological improvements if it won't bring them more profit? Do you want to remain on the stone age level of civilization?

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:13 pm


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_thermodynamics

    Thanks for reply . This is more like it . You said that Marx had said there was a profit . I have a problem with this word of profit . An organism can obtain more energy than it spends . By doing work . We can say this is because of it's use of muscle power or brain power . We can measure this . And say efficiency . But if the  organism obtains energy without spending energy . This is what happens in human society . Or capitalist society . Profit must be distinguished from work efficiency . Either surplus value . Or traders profit .

    Now , I never said that classical socialism as was the case in soviet union was successful . It failed . But what I say that is different from you , is that capitalism is also a failed system . The solution is yet to be found . But in saying macro - centralized  industrial socialism failed . Then  we must ask , how badly did it fail . After all this society , put the first man in space . It may have survived , but for some minor system modification .

    Stopping wars , and conventional wars is essential to further human survival .  Even if society has a perfect economy , still humans are divided by ethnic tribe . Communist China almost went to war with communist Russia . Capitalist nations also go to war . War has been a constant in human history . Until the advent of atomic weapons . They seem to be peace makers .

    There can absolutely be advancement and development in a non - capitalist system . Social funds will replace capital funds . They are collected in usual way by taxes . But this time they have difect relationship to work and it's measurement .


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    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:29 pm

    I don't know man, you need to read Marx's Capital if you like these ideas. We're not inventing anything with this discussion. Marx and Engels figured it all out in the 1860s. There are two classes for marxists. Workers work and get the wage and capitalists don't work and just take the surplus (profit). But this is not relevant description of 21st century economy anmore. It was ok in 19th century, but then we've got the distinction between managers and owners. And you can't say that owners of companies are a problem. They are choosing where to invest like banks, so they ARE doing an useful social function.

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:46 pm

    Reading is important . One problem in saying that socialist theory is wrong , is perhaps with our  limited  understanding of the time spans needed . Maybe it will take humans ten thousans years to achieve a utopian society . Perhaps our theories are limited in themselves . Applying in some conditions and not others .

    As Bertrand Russell said , capitalism is constructive when young and destructive when old . I believe that progress to new society is made slowly . By many steps . In capitalist economy , economic leadership rests with the capitalist class. But not political leadership . Or you end up with the excessive oligarchy .


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    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:54 pm

    Both capitalism and communism are utopian and impossible to achieve. Communism because of greed and capitalism, because of it's inefficiencies, as I described in length already. The point is not to waste time dreaming about theories but to solve real problems, regardless of ideological side of solution.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:59 pm


    Which is why I asked a practical question . The value of goods . Since knowing this , makes consciouss all economic relations . Now people can choose what system works . And what does not work .
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:24 am

    Consumers seem to be the evil guys.

    Consumerism is the evil... the planet could not cope with more than 300 million people acting like Americans... imagine if India or China or both became the consumer society that America is...

    You keep saying neither communism or capitalism are the answer, and I agree, the solution needs to be a mixture of both... we can't be bees in a single hive... that wont work, but we can't all be lone wolf either...

    Look around yourself... the vast majority of things around you you could not have made on your own. Without other people doing what they do you would struggle to survive... and that is not new... humans succeeded because they acted in groups and worked together and even used tools to enhance their strength and speed and ability to get things done.

    The idea of every man for himself and screw everyone else is inhumane.

    How to turn a generous kind hearted soul into a monster... give them 100 million dollars and watch them change... and the people around them change too...
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:16 am

    Consumerism is the evil

    We all want higher salary at the end of the month, and there's only one way to grow to infinity. Baking bread at home was crushed by bakeries, they were crushed by supermarkets, now supermarkets are under attack of specialized bakeries. There's a fast food opened 24/7, the other bakes the best cakes, yet another healthy eco bio black bread. Everybody is the best in the world at something. Just find a niche, learn e-commerce and conquer the world market. I mean you can't even enjoy a job that's not tailored to your talents/interests, so in such case no wonder you'd want as much free time as possible. On the other hand, making more complex things of course demands bigger company, where workers work together.



    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:39 pm


    We can grow to infinity and beyond . And supply will create it's own demand . Only if we lived on starship Enterprise . Where food is produced by a nuclear powered atomiser . And human offspring in their countless billions will settle on infinite uninhabited worlds .

    Back on Earth , where food is grown , and all biological niches are occupied and interconnected . Then a farm will destroy the ecosystem . And this in turn will destroy the biosphere . Causing floods, draughts, extremes of cold and heat . The yield on our farm will reduce . More effort for less gain . Until starvation arrives.

    Consumerism , a necessary product of capitalism , needs infinite growth . And this simply can not exist long term on planet Earth . The value of a product , has to take into account , the environmental damage . For example effort X , may produce so much fuel Y . That will stop a human from eating Z excess amount of food to keep warm . But this fuel will damage crops by pollution , by amount N . If X = Z - N , then we live . If less then we die . The carbon foot print needs to be converted to loss in food productivity . In calories .
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:56 pm

    We can grow food in labs. After the resources of Earth are exhausted, the move to other space objects will be imminent.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:00 pm

    Actually learning to survive on the moon or Mars will actually demand conservation of resources and recycling to a level not practised by humans ever before.

    We have been seriously spoilt on this planet with its abundant water and air and food and mineral and energy resources... trying to survive in an environment where everything we need to survive is not there in large amounts will make us work harder at being less wasteful and more resourceful too... skills and technology we could put to use on earth.

    Our plastic waste could be used to make building blocks for making weather resistent and well insulated housing for the poor and the rich... and would get plastic rubbish out of our seas and landfills.

    New technology has proven if you take water out of wood and leave just the nitrocellulose you get a material that is very very strong, yet it is organic without dangerous chemicals that can be biodegradable... but also easy to grow... forests are made of wood... it is a natural material... and a carbon sink.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:50 pm

    We have to learn to live on this planet . Economics seems related to science and biology  and psychology and sociology and politics . It is therefore a difficult subject . If we use agriculture , then we can learn to replace the plants and animals that became scarce as a result of land use . We can use the biological waste we produce , and that includes our dead bodies , as nutrients to allow growth of particular plants and micro - organisms that we destroyed . We can plant agricultural land  , with wild species , after several years use . And let it return to nature .

    Our industries must not disturb the delicate balance in nature . Polluting industries must pay cost of clean up . And we must replace fossil fuel with non - polluting sources . Nuclear power must increase . Specially  nuclear fusion reactors . With no harmful waste  . Public transport must replace private transport . Electrical rail . All non - biological waste must be either inert or bio - degradable  , or recyclable.

    All nations who face wars of aggression or annihilation , must have means of defence to detter attack by stronger nations . This includes nuclear weapons . As was shown recently , there was no war between India and Pakistan . We should not object to nations acquiring  nuclear technology . War must be made redundant .

    In our social organisation , we must return to groupings that exist as inter - dependent economic units . With a natural division of labour . Extended families.  Reduce mobility between diverse groups.  Migrant  labour . We must reform the present trend  of people living alone in seemingly independent lives  .

    Our economy , should  allow for all to become conscious  of the economic process . In a direct way . So economy becomes something they control . And allow to take shape .  Such as an organic and flexible evolution . The capability and needs of all , should be precisely visible to all .

    First people exchanged fruit for little hairy animals . Then corn for coins . Then paper money for fuel . Then plastic money for a computer . Then an electrical signal for goods  . I was thinking that smart devices attached  to the body or inside the body , can measure activity levels in calories used and can also analyse blood to give indications of hunger etc . These can send signals to mobile . Instant cyber  economy . What you think ?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:33 am

    But why care about air pollution when the wind blows it away, and we can pollute the water because water from upstream is clean and the currents take it all away... and pollution on the ground... just bury it... it is cheaper to ignore it that have to deal with it or cut back on our waste output.

    America goes on about being a leader, but they are leading us off the edge of a cliff because they have created a consumerist model that requires waste and hates reuse... poor quality tap water means water bottling companies make money... and those plastic bottles you get your water in are magic it seems... the water can stay in them for years and be totally completely safe, but once you open and use the water, reusing them creates the risk of plastic contamination so you use the bottle once and then must throw it away and buy a new one... it is scientifically proven don't you know.

    America hasn't got the guts to do the right thing... Russia and China have an opportunity to push much healthier models that involve technology and cultural models that will allow us to live without defiling the places we live in wasting less material and less money... solar and wind power can be made cheap and easy to use... an example would be a solar backpack covered in solar panels with a main battery in its base that powers all the electrical items you carry... charging all the time with sunlight so your phone and your watch and soon your glasses can be powered all the time.

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