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    What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

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    jhelb
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    What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  jhelb on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 15:55

    I could think of 5 different types of homing technologies for modern day Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs) :


    1.Infrared Homing
    2.Laser Homing
    3.Radar
    4.Satellite Based Navigation (GLONASS, GPS...)
    5.Precision Inertial Navigation Systems


    Am I missing out any other homing technology ?

    Also, are there any homing technology that are still being worked upon ?
    nomadski
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  nomadski on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 22:02

    There are now lasers mounted on ships . As weapons against incoming missiles or ucav . Can this laser be used as guidance ? Like beam riding , but seeker in nose , to hit laser itself . The sensor must wear sun block two thousand ! I thought that heat generated on skin of craft , could be used to guide . A zig zag motion to keep everything cool . Evaporative under skin cooling . Or ablative materials . Like sidewinder motion .
    GarryB
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  GarryB on Wed 06 Mar 2019, 02:20

    I could think of 5 different types of homing technologies for modern day Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs) :


    1.Infrared Homing
    2.Laser Homing
    3.Radar
    4.Satellite Based Navigation (GLONASS, GPS...)
    5.Precision Inertial Navigation Systems


    Am I missing out any other homing technology ?

    There are groups but also subgroups as technology expands and the range of targets is accounted for.

    For instance IR homing... an old AA-2 missile can detect and home in on a hot target like an aircraft engine. Not much use for anything that does not have a very hot part. But more sophisticated IIR or imaging IR can see the target in an IR spectrum and could be used against a range of different target types.

    Laser homing includes the traditional laser beam pointing at the target and weapon launch to home in on the reflection, but there is also laser beam riding, which is simpler and cheaper and much harder to deal with.

    Radar, there is ARH, and SARH.

    Satellite based normally include INS...

    But there is optical, which is similar to IR, like an ATGM like Milan where the crosshairs in the launcher are kept on the target and the guidance system in the launcher commands the missile to fly down that line of sight to hit the target... the obvious benefit there is that it can be used against any target at all, from a tank or IFV, to a window in a building or a heap of sticks or rocks.

    The obvious would be command guidance, often using other methods to find and track the target but keeping the missile cheap and simple by removing all guidance from it and putting it in the launcher/controller.

    There is also sound (for naval weapons) and wave detection for wake homing... and during WWII there were a few sniffer systems that detected diesel engines from subs or ships as used from aircraft, but added to that there is also magnetic detection used in depth charges and land mines for use against subs and tanks respectively.

    There are now lasers mounted on ships . As weapons against incoming missiles or ucav . Can this laser be used as guidance ? Like beam riding , but seeker in nose , to hit laser itself . The sensor must wear sun block two thousand ! I thought that heat generated on skin of craft , could be used to guide . A zig zag motion to keep everything cool . Evaporative under skin cooling . Or ablative materials . Like sidewinder motion .

    Laser dazzlers are used to defeat laser sensors or optical sensors in incoming threats... imagine using your eyes at night for navigation and then the bright flash of a camera... but instead of flashing on and off it stays on and is so bright you can't see anything... you normally look away but even if you didn't and kept looking all you see is an enormously bright light that overwhelms your eyes...

    The point is that a missile coming in to attack a ships and you use the laser dazzler... if it keeps coming you stop using it and try something else.

    Previously the Soviets planned to include passive anti radiation (anti radar) missiles amongst the second wave of anti ship missiles they launched at a US carrier group because the first missile attack will result in all the ships turning their radar on to see incoming threats so the second wave of missiles would try to get locks on standard radars used by US ships, so it is not a crazy idea, but I suspect it probably would not work.

    Especially as you mention if the laser is powerful enough to destroy the laser sensor in your missile... protecting it from the lasers energy would make it unable to see the laser so it might as well not have a laser sensor there...
    jhelb
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  jhelb on Wed 06 Mar 2019, 07:27

    GarryB wrote:Satellite based normally include INS...

    Ok, so Satellite based includes INS as well ? I thought INS like GLONASS and GPS uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate by dead reckoning the position ?

    Also are there any upcoming homing technologies that are being developed in Russia or maybe even in EU & US?
    GarryB
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  GarryB on Wed 06 Mar 2019, 09:32

    Ok, so Satellite based includes INS as well ? I thought INS like GLONASS and GPS uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers) and rotation sensors (gyroscopes) to continuously calculate by dead reckoning the position ?

    Most weapons that can't see their target at launch use INS or strapdown navigation system or autopilot to fly the in the direction of the target area or target location where the terminal guidance can scan for and find the target and get a proper lock.

    ARH AAMs use this, most IIR missiles etc etc.

    A cruise missile will use INS... these days a ring laser gyro that detects physical movement of the gyro to keep account of the current location of the missile.

    In many ways it is the same as a pilot would visually navigate an aircraft... with a map and a stopwatch... you know where you start from and you fly in a particular direction at a specific speed... you aim for significant land features like a road or rail crossing or mountain top or lake or river so as you fly along you can get new fixes on your position on the map to make your location of yourself more accurate.

    With a cruise missile you could be flying over flat open featureless terrain... say open sea water and then you fly over a beach and to your left is a river that meets the sea and there is a small town there... in its digital map of its flight path to its target it finds that river with the small town and it is 10km to the west of its proper flight path so it turns slightly to get back on course... because along its course will be other significant features it can use to pinpoint is real location.

    If GPS is not being jammed or has not been reset 200km one way or the other by the US military... or just turned off like they did in the Georgian conflict in 2008 then its signal can be checked to test the current location too for periodic locational fixes...


    But even a Granit will use INS to get to a location near its intended target where it will start scanning with its radar to find and get a lock on its target... otherwise it would need to use its radar all the way to find things and work out where it is which would give the target plenty of warning it was under attack.

    A ring laser gyro has a very long fibre optic cable wrapped around it and it detects movement based on the laser signal sent along the fibre optic cable... it is normally sensitive to detect the earths rotation when sitting on a coffee table in a house...

    Also are there any upcoming homing technologies that are being developed in Russia or maybe even in EU & US?

    Merging existing technology seems to be a fad... the latest model AS-11 ARM has two optical ports for IR sensors... which makes sense... big powerful radars generate a lot of heat and remain hot even after they are turned off...

    In 1996 the Russians introduced sensor fused submunitions with MMW radar and IR sensors... basically a self forging fragment... which is a flat disk of metal with a powerful explosive charge pressed against it... when the charge explodes it rapidly accelerates the disk down at such enormous velocity it crushes it and forms it into a sort of shuttlecock shape that can penetrate the top armour of tanks... both it and the sensors are angled outwards so at a good height it deploys a parachute and it spins as it falls so the radar and IR sensor scan the ground in a circle as it falls as it gets closer to the ground the circle gets smaller and smaller so any tank in that area will eventually be detected by the MMW radar sensor... if the IR sensor detects a running engine... boom... the penetrator fires at attacks the top of the tank.... if it detects a burning tank it continues to fall. If it detects no tank it flips over and points upwards and acts like a mine.

    The original model didn't have an IR sensor so the munitions might all hammer the same tank when the radar detects them.
    nomadski
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  nomadski on Sun 10 Mar 2019, 22:00

    I would like to add that , concerning new innovations , important that they are . Even more important is the route taken to achieve this . That is why many claim today in the west that things like fibre optics and kevlar and even microprocessor were discovered by contacting aliens ! This childish but important diversion is an attempt to hide the critical path behind new discoveries . More important than the discovery itself . What are the conditions that give rise to genius ? If we knew , then we could make a factory of genius production . And leave the rest to them . My brief reading resulted in these conditions :

    ( 1 ) A rich and stable childhood , encouraging knowledge and discovery .

    ( 2 ) A nurturing environment , allowing genius to grow .

    ( 3 ) The existence of strong motivational factors . Ideology .

    ( 4 ) The development of a brain that uses all it's parts . Creativity .

    ( 5 ) The collection of a genius community in safe closed environment .

    ........
    The-thing-next-door
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat 16 Mar 2019, 07:51

    nomadski wrote:I would like to add that ,  concerning new innovations , important that they are . Even more important is the route taken to achieve this . That is why many claim today in the west that things like fibre optics and kevlar and even microprocessor were discovered by contacting aliens ! This childish but important diversion is an attempt to hide the critical path behind new discoveries . More important than the discovery itself . What are the conditions that give rise to genius ? If we knew , then we could make a factory of genius production . And leave the rest to them . My brief reading resulted in these conditions :

    ( 1 ) A rich and stable childhood , encouraging knowledge and discovery .

    ( 2 ) A nurturing  environment , allowing genius to grow .

    ( 3 ) The existence of strong motivational factors . Ideology .

    ( 4 )  The development of a brain that uses all it's parts . Creativity .

    ( 5 )  The collection of a genius community  in safe closed environment .

    ........

    Not at all nessecity is the mother of invention a kushy childhood will have the exact opposite effect.

    To develop inteligence one must experience disomfort as a child and seek solutions to this, or just be in a county that is under military threat after all most
    civillian inventions are derived from millitary technology.
    GarryB
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  GarryB on Sat 16 Mar 2019, 10:43

    If there was a sure fire route to genius then I am sure it would have been found simply by studying genius's and their up bringing.

    I suspect the actual mixture depends on the ingredients... one mans childhood trauma that made him a man and sent him down a path to future success could break another person and create a mad man, or worse.

    There are always people with agendas who pop up and claim this or that, but in the long run we really just don't know and probably can't know because it is so complex and we are still relatively stupid.

    IQ results show we are getting smarter, they say, but it just might be that we are getting better at IQ tests...

    Back onto topic however I would mention guidance technologies are often combined... for instance a long range air to air missile with active radar homing rarely can be fitted with its own radar powerful enough to detect an enemy target aircraft at its max effective range.

    For instance the current model R-77 can engage targets at up to 110km, but of course it could not detect an aircraft at that distance, so it uses inertial guidance to get it near the target where it turns on its terminal guidance in the form of a small active radar to find the target itself, get a lock and then home in to hit it.

    That means for an engagement you can use pretty much any form of detection and tracking to determine a loose intercept point and then fire the missile. The missile will travel to that intercept point radar silent... if.... on its way the target makes a significant turn or climb or speeds up or slows down and wont be in view when the missile gets there the new target track is calculated and new interception coordinates are sent to the missile which changes course to a new intercept course... when it reaches a point where the target should be right in front of it but a few kms away it turns on its own radar... detects and locks the target and then homes in on that target to hit it.

    Inertial guidance is often used that way... to control the weapon over a distance to get it to a position where it can use more precise guidance to find and hit the target... anti ship missiles, cruise missiles etc etc.

    A very long range cruise missile could use updates along its flight path, like a fork in a road or river to determine if it is in the right place or not and update its current position to improve the accuracy of its inertial nav system... pilots do the same when flying cross country... they can look ahead on their flight path on their map and find a major feature like a mountain top or road junction or a bridge over a river and they can check the position they are supposed to be compared with it... for instance if they look ahead and see a bridge to their right at 15 degrees but their flight path should take them over the bridge they can adjust their course and fly over the bridge to get back on course...  Over time INS gets less accurate or the error gets bigger... the more checks and reference points you put in the more accurate you can make your navigation... after flying 5,000km if you look ahead and see a fork in the road you are supposed to be flying over you can adjust your flight path so you fly over it like you were supposed to... all previous flight errors are eliminated and you are basically back on course so you have a CEP of 1, but once past it your CEP will grow again till the next fix.

    You might get to your target and it is not where it was supposed to be so the terminal guidance should recognise that and steer the missile into the actual target not where it was supposed to be...
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  jhelb on Sat 16 Mar 2019, 15:15

    The-thing-next-door wrote:civillian inventions are derived from millitary technology.

    Setting up a business to design manufacturing technologies for the military is extremely expensive. Unless you have the deep pockets of the Kremlin, or China, Arab states you will struggle to sustain such a business. This explains why hardly any SME companies take to this domain.
    GarryB
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    Re: What are the various Homing Technologies for PGMs ? Both current and upcoming

    Post  GarryB on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 02:19

    The key is a great idea and a good business plan... take that to the military or financial backers and get them to invest in the project.

    Go to places like that Skolkovo that are idea hives that are supposed to direct investment to new ideas or just good ideas to get them going.

    Sadly sometimes good ideas are ruthlessly pinched/stolen... or the person you show is too stupid or too narrow minded to see a good idea... or worse they take the idea and change it to make it a failure.

    Designing homing technologies for weapons is expensive and very high tech and very technical... personally I would think the easiest area to get in to would be UAVs and you could start by building model aircraft and fly them using remotes... learn the designs... don't just copy the boring glider shape... buy the materials and start designing your own. Start out with conventional designs and feel their balance and how they fly and then experiment with some designs of your own... once you have a feel for the sport find a company that makes UAVs and ask if you can help out... and see what you can learn... talk to the designers and the builders... don't be afraid to make suggestions but also don't be afraid they will tell you your suggestions are silly and wont work.... don't get shitty about it, but do ask why, and if they can tell you actual reasons why you have just learned something new... add that to what you know it will make your designs better. If they just say that they are silly because no one does it that way but can't tell you why... perhaps you should suggest they allow you to use their resources to try it to see if it works.

    It might turn out to be a fairy tale and all their new UAVS are from then on based on your revolutionary design, or it might be terrible... but if you don't try you wont know and neither will they.

    Never be afraid of failure, just make sure you learn the correct lessons from the failure and move on.

    Don't stop at the first hurdle either... make sure it really is a failure before you stop.

    Look at the experience with Bulava... they give the job to a company that has never made naval missiles and the first few launches work fine but then they have lots of failures for different little things. It would have been easy to stop it there, but the missile itself was a good design, it was just problems with parts and assembly, and new design issues... now that they are sorted they have a world class accurate long range missile, but they needed to keep a sensible head and look into why it failed each time to work out what the real problem actually was and then deal with it, rather than tantrums and firing people at random like some members here would demand.

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