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    PAK-DΑ: News #2

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    Gazputin

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    Post  Gazputin on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:41 am

    I have no problem with Russia creating fascinating jobs for its young people - I applaud it
    as a young person I'd love to work on a PAK-DA …..

    and that nonsense about the Olympics being a waste of money - it was an integral part of a Tourism SEZ to develop the Black Sea and adjoining mountainous regions as recreational zones for beaches and skiing etc …. look it up
    https://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01391/Russia-map-SEZs_1391177a.jpg

    anyway back to the PAK-DA
    …. I just came across this by accident …. its a year old
    looks like a Northrop RQ-180 at Edwards AF base ….
    wingspan around 130' ….. vs B2 of 170'

    it does actually seem that this RQ-180 is an unmanned prototype for the B-21 …..
    a refined 2-engined B-2 …..

    https://theaviationist.com/2018/08/24/whats-this-mysterious-aircraft-spotted-at-edwards-afb-the-secretive-b-21-raider-the-rq-180-drone-or-just-a-b-2/

    B-21 looks a low risk refinement of the B-2 …. with 2 engines and wingspan of around 130'
    ( so they can afford to build 100 …. this time)
    it will almost certainly use 2x F-22 engines …. and use the GE variable cycle engine later for better endurance

    surely the PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95
    which has always looked like a giant flying wing to me …. with a big bomb bay bolted to it ….
    Tu-95 wingspan 165' …..

    similar wingspans keep popping up don't they …..
    PAK-DA ???? …. 150' ?






    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:37 am

    They have said the PAK DA has two main roles, strategic cruise missile carrier, and theatre heavy bomber... the former to replace the Bear, and the latter to replace the Backfire.

    The Bears need replacing first but are the cheapest component of the Russian strategic bombing force because they don't burn enormous amounts of fuel like the Blackjack does or can.

    The Russians are certainly looking at supersonic strategic bombers... the Tu-160M2 is that.

    A subsonic large long range flying wing design with enormous internal weapon and fuel capacity means supersonic flight would be almost impossible because the thickness of the wing needed to carry those weapons internally and all that fuel as well means it is going to be very thick... which is fine... it will still be stealthy and very low drag, with lots of room for fuel and weapons.
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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:They have said the PAK DA has two main roles, strategic cruise missile carrier, and theatre heavy bomber... the former to replace the Bear, and the latter to replace the Backfire.

    The Bears need replacing first but are the cheapest component of the Russian strategic bombing force because they don't burn enormous amounts of fuel like the Blackjack does or can.

    The Russians are certainly looking at supersonic strategic bombers... the Tu-160M2 is that.

    A subsonic large long range flying wing design with enormous internal weapon and fuel capacity means supersonic flight would be almost impossible because the thickness of the wing needed to carry those weapons internally and all that fuel as well means it is going to be very thick... which is fine... it will still be stealthy and very low drag, with lots of room for fuel and weapons.

    I don't see how PAK-DA can replace the bear..
    The Bear is already in service , while PAK_DA is a 2027 plane..
    Bear can do the job well , of deterrence.. You send a couple of dozen bear ,armed with hypersonic nukes ,flying all the time over international airspace ,(near US manhattan island) , and this will allow Russia to position nuclear armed guided missiles withing 3-5 minutes of US most important decision centers , Pentagon ,CIA ,Congress and White house.
    With good intelligence , Russia couold use those Bear bombers to decapitate the leadership of US and most important military bases.. and provoke a total civil war in the entire nation..
    after no leadership in place.

    So Old soviet bombers ,still have a place in Russia military , this is why they continue using them.. They have about a hundred of them.. and they could become very lethal weapons for any NATO battleship formation if armed with hypersonic nukes..
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:36 pm

    Yes, but they are not building new tu-95.
    They will anyway operate together for a long time.

    The USAF is planning to fly the b52 (upgraded with different engines) until 2050, and b52 airframes are older than most of the Tu-95 currently in service with the Russian Air Force.

    Also the backfires are excellent airplanes, and they are being upgraded.

    I believe that the Syrian operation showed also the capabilities of the backfire, and not always combining more roles into the same airplane is the best idea, or even the less.expensive.

    The tu-95 and the tu-160 also partecipated to the Syrian campaign, both for their "baptism of fire" and to test them in "real" conditions, but they "onlyl fired expensive cruise missiles.

    In addition the backfire could carry several hypersonic antiship missiles, and it is not clear if this capability could be maintained by other airplanes (tu160 are too expensive and few in number and have a strategic role, and the mig-31K carry only one missile).

    We will see later if the PAK-DA will replace both the bear and the backfire, or if they will end up with a replacement for the Tu-22M to sit in size between the su-34M and the PAK-DA
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    Post  Gazputin on Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:28 am

    I wasn't trying to say dump the Tu-95 - I was complimenting it by saying if you look at it in plan shape …. it is essentially a flying wing
    maybe I should have worded it better

    On the Tu-95 if you look at those long landing gear pods on the back of the inboard engines …. if you removed the long fuselage and nose and filled in the area near the pods - you have a flying wing as they look today …. with wide tricycle undercarriage

    they'll probably get another 20 yrs out of them …. what "crew comfort" is like is anyone's guess …

    I'd think the Su-34 with variable cycle engines will eventually replace the Tu-22s ….
    and they'll be complemented by Su-70 … with the same variable cycle engine
    and they'll both be built at NAPO … your "medium loiter" factory site …

    Su-70 is your medium range subsonic loitering flying wing
    Su-34 is your supersonic capable medium range loitering aircraft

    and the PAK-DA is the long-range subsonic "new flying wing" to replace the current "flying wing" … the Tu-95 ….
    and your Tu-160 can loiter via variable wings and can make supersonic dashes if required

    that would make pragmatic sense to me …. that is how Russian brains work …. they are pragmatists

    ie most of your loitering roles will be covered by subsonic flying wings as they are very fuel efficient …. just as the Tu-95 is

    I was trying to get a discussion going on the probably wingspan of the PAK-DA
    I was saying its interesting that most of the long range aircraft around have wingspans of around 170'
    and the Americans are apparently going down to 130' with the B-21 - aerodynamically more efficient wing profiles ?











    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:42 am

    With the missiles getting their range increased to more than 4000km, pak da or tu-95 doesn't change anything. They could even use il 96 for that matter.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:37 am

    If they build 50-60 Tu-160M2s and upgrade the existing 10-12 models to the same standard and they build PAK DA... how many Bears will they require in service?

    The PAK DA wont be cheap to buy, but its size means internal access to equipment and systems so it should be easier to maintain than stealth fighters because you don't have to remove RAM to remove panels and then reapply RAM and let it cure before you can get airborne again.

    Also with modern electronics with fault finding capability it can probably locate problems itself and with modern efficient turbofans it should be cheap to run too, why not replace the Bears in the strategic role?

    Obviously the Russians aren't in the same boat as the Americans... the Bears were made in the late 1980s and early 1990s and are very young airframes, whereas the B-52s were built in the 50s and 60s...
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:38 pm

    Given the fact that all we know so far about the PAK-DA comes from commentators here is another one revealing few more puzzles about the bomber.

    - 15000 km range
    - supersonic speed
    - 145t full load
    - ability to launch spacecrafts


    and I should add

    ... ability to sneak in to the US carriers
    ... ability to penetrate soft belly of the US
    ... ability to provide cover for the Russian boomers from surface threat
    ... ability to take off US ground based EW radar
    ... it can strike without warning unnoticed, strike strong or with efficient accuracy, it can strike deep keeping entire EU in check making circles around it and will most likely act in conjuction with Liana satellite constellation.

    its like a Perun axe of justice that can split the country apart

    retired colonel Viktor Baranets
    "This machine is not a development of the previous ones - it is a fundamentally new model that is actually being done from scratch. All the best that our aircraft manufacturing military field has developed today will be implemented in this aircraft. The highest demands are made on it. It will fly at supersonic speed at a range of 15 thousand kilometers (so far no plane in the world has such a range yet), it will use all types of missiles and bombs that are currently in service with the Russian army, it can even be a platform for OSCAL satellites. I would like to draw attention to the orientation of the electronic system, navigation, weapons control. The machine is not easy, it is in full gear, with a maximum load will weigh 145 tons. It is noteworthy,

    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20190812/1557399678.html
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:09 pm

    I don't believe. Or he made an mistake or the media did.
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    Azi

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    Post  Azi on Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:42 am

    dino00 wrote:I don't believe. Or he made an mistake or the media did.
    It's not complete unrealistic...

    Compare with the datasheet of the B-2 bomber:

    Range: 18.000 km (without weapons), with weapons ~12.000 km (Hi-Hi-Hi profile)
    Full load: 153 t
    Speed: Subsonic (1010 km/h high altitude)

    And I should add...it can do everything, because it's a Murican Wunderwaffe! pwnd lol!


    The only big question is....subsonic or supersonic!? Normal flying wing designs are subsonic, but Su S-70 proves that supersonic is not that problem, especially if it's not a true flying wing design and has a tail. We will see...

    The data above makes sense, because PAK-DA should be a bit smaller and lighter than a B-2 (but only a bit!) and should have better engines. But I really doubt that some "experts" have any data available now!

    PAK-DA is a big secret for now! dunno
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:09 am

    Well that is interesting... with thrust vectoring engines able to compensate for the shift in cg in the transition from subsonic to transonic to supersonic speed (normal supersonic planes have all moving horizontal tail surfaces to enable supersonic flight, but thrust vectoring engines should allow any aircraft to do the same...) then it could be possible for it to be supersonic... but it wont be high supersonic...

    I suspect with a flying wing design they are going for super cruising performance, which should be achievable with the right engine design and the very low drag shape of a flying wing aircraft.

    As I have said the wing profile of a strategic flying wing will be thick to hold all that fuel and those internal weapons, but by making the wing bigger and broader with the right wing sweep they might be able to make it able to fly at low supersonic speeds in dry thrust.

    Remember flight speed is about drag and not power to weight ratio... a MiG-31 is a heavy aircraft but its huge engines don't give it a high power to weight ratio... but high power to weight ratio is what is needed for acceleration... not top speed...

    The PD-35 is being developed for large heavy aircraft in Russia and they are using a variant for the PAK DA... now a high bypass turbofan generates a lot of its power from the cold bypass air being blown through the engine by the large front fans... the excess of cold air going through makes an after burner more effective because it is oxygen rich... it has not had fuel burned in it yet.

    A medium or low bypass version of the PD-35 could have an afterburner added to accelerate the aircraft to supersonic speeds and then throttle back out of AB to maintain supersonic flight in dry thrust... that would greatly extend flight range and mean the long range of the aircraft is covered much faster... flying at mach 1.5 or 1.6 would make it almost impossible for F-35s to intercept it simply because operationally they would never fly at such speeds anyway.

    Keeping in mind that by the time even a supersonic bomber gets to the US ICBMs and SLBMs will have already destroyed most of the air defences and major cities anyway.

    It would be interesting too because in the space of a 2 ton 5,000km range cruise missile you could probably carry 10 decent sized nuclear bombs, so delivering bombs you could hit more targets... and with modern glide kits you wont have to overfly the targets either.

    An interesting interview... should be interesting to see what it turns out like when it gets into service.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:57 am

    I still want to believe its a modernised & stealthed version of T-4MS config angel
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:If they build 50-60 Tu-160M2s and upgrade the existing 10-12 models to the same standard and they build PAK DA... how many Bears will they require in service?

    The PAK DA wont be cheap to buy, but its size means internal access to equipment and systems so it should be easier to maintain than stealth fighters because you don't have to remove RAM to remove panels and then reapply RAM and let it cure before you can get airborne again.

    Also with modern electronics with fault finding capability it can probably locate problems itself and with modern efficient turbofans it should be cheap to run too, why not replace the Bears in the strategic role?

    Obviously the Russians aren't in the same boat as the Americans... the Bears were made in the late 1980s and early 1990s and are very young airframes, whereas the B-52s were built in the 50s and 60s...

    If they have 70 something 160's none, they wouldn't need the Bears at that point.

    Our B-52's may have old frames but on the inside are high tech, the one on active service we have overhauled them and replaced engines after their life span is gone.

    We also have our B1-Lancers however which the first one was introduced in 1986 we have around 100 of those.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:14 pm

    B1s were converted to conventional only.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:40 am

    I still want to believe its a modernised & stealthed version of T-4MS config

    Well that is an interesting proposition... most of the time fanboys post images of the T-4MS as the PAK DA because they don't realise that it was part of the competition that the White Swan won... it is like saying the replacement for the F-22 will be the YF-23...

    Having said that the main reason that 20 years ago I would have said no chance regarding the T-4MS is because it has a swing wing design that would require an enormous titanium structure for the swing wing mechanism to be mounted in... and at the same time I would say the forge that created the huge one piece titanium box structure for the swing wing on the White Swan is in the Ukraine and unable to do the job now anyway so the chances of making more White Swans or a T-4MS would be zero.

    Now that they have developed a forge to build White Swans... they could probably make T-4MS type aircraft that are basically lifting body aircraft with swing wings that could be supersonic.

    The problem there is that the White Swan is expensive to run because of its big powerful engines... it has twice the engine power of the B-1B, and a T-4MS would also need big powerful turbojet engines or low bypass turbofans.

    Easing back the speed requirement to supercruise potential rather than mach 2 plus speed potential could reduce the engine power needed and with swing wings make supercruise much more achievable without needing too much horsepower... too much horsepower means shortened range and more fuel and less payload...


    If they have 70 something 160's none, they wouldn't need the Bears at that point.

    The plan is a mix of supersonic White Swans cruise missile carrier, with a subsonic theatre bomber and subsonic strategic cruise missile carrier. AFAIK.

    Our B-52's may have old frames but on the inside are high tech, the one on active service we have overhauled them and replaced engines after their life span is gone.

    They are older than the fathers of their pilots most of the time these days...
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    Post  Gazputin on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:07 am

    Supersonic Tu-160s … + subsonic PAK-DAs
    thing is ? what is the range of an atmospheric hypersonic profiled missile ?

    and does it matter with 2 options ….. who cares ?
    I'd do the exact above ..
    and lets face it PAK-DAs will eventually replace Tu-95s … its inevitable

    and as I said Tu-22 will be replaced by Su-34 and Ukhotniks …. also inevitable
    you simply can't support so many different airframes ….
    Ukhotnik replaces Tu-22 ….. and some Su-34s

    PAK-DA replaces Tu-95 …..

    seems very "Russian" to me … anyway 10 yrs off ….. 7-8 if you are lucky
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:59 am

    Again just the frames, electronics and engines are brand new.

    How typical of you throwing a baseless insult, Grow up.

    Russians and the US both retire their pilots at nearly the same ages.

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    Post  Gazputin on Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:02 am

    I can see the name PAK-DA in the bottom left hand corner …. for new PD-20 engine
    so they are thinking high bypass type civil engine … ie for good cruise economy

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russias-united-engines-reveals-weight-sino-russian-cr929/

    2x PD-20s …. what's that an aircraft 1/3 heavier than an MC-21 ….
    interesting ….

    what's that ? …. MC-21 max takeoff 80,000 kgs

    PAK-DA ….. hmmmm bit over 100,000 kgs ?
    with 2 engines …

    200,000 with 4 ….. B-2 max takeoff 170,000 kgs ….. unlikely to be bigger than B-2 ….

    B-21 apparently 1/3 smaller than B-2 = bit over 100,000 kgs

    sounds about right ….. my money says its going to be like B-21 …. 1/3 smaller than B-2
    using high bypass commercial style engines for good cruise economy …. so it will have a chubby body ….
    you can sketch it out in your head - wingspan around 130 feet …. depth of fuselage to fit engines ...

    think my numbers are right ….? got a glass of red helping me here …. lol








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