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    How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

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    jhelb
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    How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  jhelb on Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:25 pm

    How do you learn to design a PGM, for instance a KAB 500S or a P 800 Oniks?

    What are the things that you need to know in order to design such PGMs?
    GarryB
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:27 am

    Well, you are unlikely to make an Onyx from scratch on your own, but you could buy a UAV from a shop and modify it... as we have seen with a few public attempts to kill politicians with bomb equipped UAVs.

    Basically you need an airframe or aircraft or weapon chassis, plus control surfaces, plus a control method, and sensors/guidance method.

    One of the simplest systems would be a Metis-M1 ATGM, which consists of a launch tube with a missile inside and a launcher that can be placed on the ground or fire from the shoulder.

    The missile is very simple and therefore very cheap... the sensors are in the launcher and the guidance system is in the launcher, the flight control commands for the missile are generated in the launcher and sent to the missile via wires.

    The missile is manually guided by the operator manually tracking the target, while the sensors in the launcher tracks the point of aim and the location of the missile and sends commands to the missile to bring it to the point of aim... if it stays on that point of aim and the point of aim is on the target then the missile will either run out of wire and crash into the ground or it will hit the target depending on the range to the target.

    The big brother of the Metis-M, the Kornet uses a laser beam from the launcher... the missile itself has a rear facing optical sensor and it can detect its position in the beam and can manouver itself to the point of aim so no trailing wire and so it can move much much faster.

    Later versions of the system can use an autotracker to automatically follow the target for the engagement... that basically involves a computer and a video processing unit that analyses the content of the view from the seeker and detects the target as an object to be tracked and followed.

    The missile is still reasonably simple and full control of the intercept is in the hands of the operator... the system normally aims the laser beam 5-10m high so the target wont detect it is being engaged until the missile is within a kilometre of the target... so the target gets less than three seconds warning of the attack.

    Simple face recognition software on a digital camera is similar... it is basically detecting a pattern and tracking it... changing the software to find tanks or cars or trucks should not be that hard, so your UAV can detect targets... some sort of control system that shows you what the drone sees... say on your cellphone... select the target and command the drone to dive and attack that target... easy... cheap... scary...

    New driverless cars are even more scary... you could buy a huge SUV and rip out the guts and harden up the suspension and put a ton of HE in the back and then give it the address of the target... a cell phone call to set off the bomb with those remote internet cameras so you can see what is happening all the way to the target.... boom.
    GarryB
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:32 am

    Or do you mean what education do you need to get into designing high tech modern weapons?

    I would say engineering, technical drawing, electronics, but it would probably be better to go to websites of companies that make these weapons... they often have links for Careers... contact them and tell them what you want to do and what they want and are looking for.

    I had a friend who wanted to be an armourer and did a few courses before joining the Army.

    The courses were not cheap and put him in debt, and the Army didn't recognise the qualifications anyway so it didn't help him at all.

    The Army had their own courses, doing things the way they wanted them done and he got paid to do them... so trying to get prepared was not the best idea... he should have talked to them about what they wanted and what he needed to do... he would have been much better off paying more attention to fitness to get through basic training easier...
    jhelb
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  jhelb on Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:28 am

    GarryB wrote:Or do you mean what education do you need to get into designing high tech modern weapons?

    Thanks GarrryB. Yes I meant both - what you have explained.

    For instance lets say I intend to develop the state of the art sensors for the P 800, how should I go about acquiring the knowledge?
    nomadski
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  nomadski on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:29 pm

    First you must know that you can do it .  It is ten percent intelligence and ninety  percent persistence . Second don't get stuck in high maths or physics . Don't be afraid of it either . First get the idea , then give it to scientist . Or do the maths later to see viability . Nature provides many of the answers . Applied and proven battle machines . Did you know that there is a Beetle ,  I think called a fire Beetle ,  can detect a forest fire from many kilometers distance . And escapes to safety . It does this by sensing rising fluid pressure in glands on legs . Fire or radiation emitted  then heats up fluid . Beetle escapes . Analog can be built . New sensor !
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:05 pm

    Get yourself an engineering degree in one of the subsystems of a missile, you will be qualified to work on whatever part your degree is in.
    GarryB
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:44 am

    For instance lets say I intend to develop the state of the art sensors for the P 800, how should I go about acquiring the knowledge?

    I don't think anyone on this forum has any experience developing PGM sensors, let alone integrating them into a real weapon... my advise would be to pick a company that currently makes such products and look at the careers section of their website and contact them to talk about it.

    They should be able to tell you what sort of qualifications will be useful or required...
    jhelb
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  jhelb on Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:58 pm

    Thanks nomadski.


    nomadski wrote:First you must know that you can do it .  

    This is the tough part isn't it...convincing yourself that you can do something that is otherwise considered difficult to do.
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  nomadski on Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:09 pm

    You are welcome . But I always try to think of the little guy. The world's problems comes from the strong or wealthy nations that oppress the weak  . So in defence terms , anything that puts their expensive destructive machines beyond use ,  is my cup of tea !

    For example thinking about putting aircraft carriers beyond use ,  a UAV powered by hydrogen  fuel  cell  that powers a prop , would have no heat or chemical output that can  be detected from orbit . It can not be intercepted , if it has low rcs body . Bye bye aircraft carrier . Cost of UAV ,  one millionths  of carrier . Rich guy goes bye bye .  But you have to be obsessive . Thinking about things  24/7 .
    GarryB
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    Re: How do you learn to design a Precision Guided Munition?

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:59 am

    Also keep in mind that sometimes talent is born and sometimes it is learned via hard work and dedication.

    Sometimes learning about what people did before can avoid making the same mistakes that have been made previously, but sometimes people have given up too easily and didn't really try the right solutions.

    An example I have mentioned is gun launched anti tank missiles... the French and the Americans both tried and failed.

    The French made a 142mm calibre missile that didn't really make it inter service, while the Americans made a 152mm calibre missile that made it into service, went to war on several occasions with no credible evidence it was ever fired successfully at all.

    Logic would suggest the Soviets would be wasting their time trying to make gun launched guided missiles... especially when in the western view they are considered less capable in the area of miniaturised components and electronics.

    The results are clear for everyone... the soviets took a different approach, but it could be argued their original models were not very impressive at all, but with further development now offer capabilities no western equivalent system ever got near.

    Very simply the west wanted to make a missile firing super tank and ended up with tanks using guns that were useless as guns and pretty much only useful for launching missiles... they designed the missiles first and then built guns to fire them.

    With those goals they could much more easily have taken an APC chassis and put TOW missiles in a turret roof mounted launcher stored more missiles in the hull and saved a fortune and gotten a much more powerful and capable vehicle.

    For the Soviets it was about cheaply and easily extending the effective reach of all their tanks... the T-55s and T-62s got these missiles too... they developed missiles for existing tank guns of all calibres from 100mm and up... the Bastion system came in four different versions... one for the smoothbore 100mm gun of the MT-12, and one for the rifled 100mm gun of the T-54/55 tank, and one for the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3, and one with an adapter sleeve for the smoothbore 115mm gun of the T-62.

    They didn't want to create super missile firing tanks... they also had versions of that called the IT-1 and IT-2 that was a tank chassis and a lot flat turret with a launcher for the AT-3 ATGM... which was a failure too, but the idea for their gun launched missiles was to use existing guns and for tanks to carry a few missiles as a new type of ammo... good for specific jobs but not a replacement for all its ammo.

    The later rounds were much faster and with better range and performance and can be used against enemy helicopters or point targets at extended ranges where normal fire would not be so accurate or effective.

    Of course sometimes lack of knowledge can lead to innovative solutions, but it can equally result in repeating mistakes made before, so a healthy understanding of what has been tried and what has failed and why it failed is important too.

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