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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

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    Firebird

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    Post  Firebird on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:57 am

    So the hohols refuse to repair the An-124s. But V-D buy a load of Boeings?
    If Ulyanovsk can repair the RuAF's An-124s surely it can fix Volga-Dnieper's?
    Anyway, the RuAF is still short of An-124s. No reason why it can't do some civilian freight work too.
    All sounds a bit bizarre. Its the hohols and the Washington gang that should carry the can, NOT V-D staff.

    I think Russia needs to get certification for Ulyanovsk An-124s asap for civilian use.
    Ofcourse the hohols will try and throw spanners in the works. So they should be ignored.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:09 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:China may buy some.
    better Keep them for the russian air force if so
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:18 pm

    Would probably make sense for China to wait five years or so when Russia has a new replacement type for themselves... they could buy some too, or buy up their old An-124s with new Russian engines.

    The An-124s engines are old and not super reliable and not particularly powerful or fuel efficient.

    With new engines it would be a much better performing aircraft...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:59 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:China may buy some.

    Why the hell would they sell them to China when they need them for themselves?

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:China may buy some.

    Why the hell would they sell them to China when they need them for themselves?

    Exactly my point. Those aircrafts will be quite useful for the VTA, even if with outdated engines for the moment.

    Furthermore the Boeing 747 cargo type bought by Volga dnepr were of the type whose design was modified by the russian design office and using a lot of soviet cargo solutions.

    I am sure that once modern engines are available, either Volga dnepr or another company could operate maybe a new twin engine cargo version of the il96 for payloads that do not need an124 or similar oversize capacity. Furthermore there will be also the il96-500 for oversize but relatively light loads
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:05 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:China may buy some.

    Why the hell would they sell them to China when they need them for themselves?


    Everything for Tsavo ends with "China".

    Russia will just liquidate the assets to their own. They done it other times anyway. The whole Boeing order was to bribe US and it failed. So the company deserves it tbh
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:09 pm

    If Ulyanovsk can repair the RuAF's An-124s surely it can fix Volga-Dnieper's?
    Volga-Dnieper won't be able to use their An-124s abroad as Antonov holds the type certificate & will legally challenge their cargo operations. The company will probably split or be taken over by Aeroflot or another large cargo mover.
    Everything for Tsavo ends with "China".
    Recall how many things China got from Ukraine so far? They may get at least some B-747Fs as well.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:55 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    If Ulyanovsk can repair the RuAF's An-124s surely it can fix Volga-Dnieper's?
    Volga-Dnieper won't be able to use their An-124s abroad as Antonov holds the type certificate & will legally challenge their cargo operations. The company will probably split or be taken over by Aeroflot or another large cargo mover.
    Everything for Tsavo ends with "China".
    Recall how many things China got from Ukraine so far? They may get at least some B-747Fs as well.
    I thought you were talking about giving you China the An-124 front Volga Dnepr... as far as the B747F, from what I understood, they were leased, not bought..
    In this case I do not know what may happen in case of liquidation of the company.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:44 am

    The article said they took a loan to buy those B-747Fs.
    Yes, China may get An-124s too at bargain prices.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:49 am

    Volga-Dnieper won't be able to use their An-124s abroad as Antonov holds the type certificate & will legally challenge their cargo operations. The company will probably split or be taken over by Aeroflot or another large cargo mover.

    Volga-Dnieper is a Russian company so there is little chance of the aircraft going to Ukraine or China.

    The Russian military could probably buy the aircraft they own from the liquidators for a good price... military aircraft are exempt from certificate issues for cargo transport.

    The Leased Boeings will probably be returned to the owners after the liquidators negotiate a refund for not operating the aircraft for the term of the contract.

    China does not currently operate any An-124s and would have problems operating them without support or spare engines.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:33 am

    Volga-Dnieper is a Russian company so there is little chance of the aircraft going to Ukraine or China.
    The problem is that any mods w/o Antonov approval will result in those An-124s declared unsafe to operate by them. So only the VTA can modify them w/o any legal/commercial consequences.
    China does not currently operate any An-124s and would have problems operating them without support or spare engines.
    they were going to produce them anyway; getting used planes will give them early extra training in maintenance, use & extra spare parts.
    Russia &/ Ukraine could supply/overhaul engines.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:19 am

    The problem is that any mods w/o Antonov approval will result in those An-124s declared unsafe to operate by them. So only the VTA can modify them w/o any legal/commercial consequences.

    Not really seeing the problem myself... how much do you think they could sell them for on the open market?

    they were going to produce them anyway; getting used planes will give them early extra training in maintenance, use & extra spare parts.
    Russia &/ Ukraine could supply/overhaul engines.

    I really doubt the Ukraine will be competent to do very much of anything these days, and watch them like a hawk to make sure you are getting what you are paying for too.

    Russia can pretty much help with all the avionics and systems they might need, though they might want engine capacity for themselves for the moment.

    If China want to produce these aircraft then even more reason for them to sort out the engine issue because it is not going away.

    The Russians have spent money and are making alternative engines. what sort of engine support the Ukraine could provide and whether it can continue to provide such support for any period in the future is an important question for any customer.

    I suspect the Chinese wont spend an enormous amount to buy some second hand An-124s, especially with the uncertainty about whether they could even get them certified to transport cargo or have running engines. The Russians on the other hand could use some of the money in their budget for heavy transport to buy the aircraft and presumably their spares pool as well.

    China might out bid them, but they might end up with white elephants if they do.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:32 am

    China could also buy Western engines & use An-124s for military/gov. cargo ops. 1 An-124 can lift 2x their Y-20 & IL-76 do.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:10 am

    They could buy western engines, which would need to be integrated into the design... wont be cheap, and not necessarily a sound economic decision because the sanctions against Russia and Iran and China are all about their development and growth... if China wants to continue to grow and develop then they can only expect more sanctions from the west... which makes relying on western engines a potential problem.

    The real question would be if they really need them why didn't they use VP and hire them for all these jobs they will need them for?

    If they weren't using them, then they wont be missing much if they don't get them.

    It is a case of do you hire a taxi or do you buy a car.

    If you don't use it very much at all sometimes a taxi makes more sense and works out cheaper.
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    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:03 pm

    This is a dedicated issue on PD-14 Engine , Any one understand Russia can put the key points

    http://www.kr-magazine.ru/archive/2019/krylya-rodiny-5-6-za-2019-god.html
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:They could buy western engines, which would need to be integrated into the design... wont be cheap, and not necessarily a sound economic decision because the sanctions against Russia and Iran and China are all about their development and growth... if China wants to continue to grow and develop then they can only expect more sanctions from the west... which makes relying on western engines a potential problem.


    The recent 'you ain't having this anymore' moves by the US could lead to much more combined R&D in all kinds of areas, a job share so to speak.

    Especially aviation. All the big growth over the next 20 years is going to be in Eurasia, crazy to let that go to the US especially with the multitude of problems Boeing, their only manufacturer, has on their plate. With the US tariffs now on Airbus exports to the US, Europe with Russia and China could dominate.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:36 pm

    They could buy western engines, which would need to be integrated into the design... wont be cheap, and not necessarily a sound economic decision because the sanctions against Russia and Iran and China are all about their development and growth... if China wants to continue to grow and develop then they can only expect more sanctions from the west... which makes relying on western engines a potential problem.
    That would be a stopgap-until they get their own. Their airlines buy engines for big transports anyway.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines_of_China#Major

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_China_Cargo#Current_Fleet

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Cargo_Airlines#Current_fleet

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Southern_Airlines#A380

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni-Top_Airlines#Fleet
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:05 pm

    We're not fucking talking about China. Not everything has to do with China. We are talking about a Russian carrier. Not Chinese.

    God this site is so shit with idiots talking of nothing.

    Here Tsavo, I will help you get a daily dose of Chinese for you.

    China china china china china, chink, china, chinky China, China is greatest, China is number 1. China is everything.

    OK, are you feeling better? Now, lets continue.

    No, for assets Russian MILITARY is in desperate need of, those Il-76's and AN-123's will be in Russian Military hands. They don't need certification for any other site since their purpose would be transporting their equipment within the country and if need be, during war time outside. Their aviator plant would be able to maintain those engines using Russian components like they are doing with other AN aircraft currently.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:26 pm

    u r not a moderator & don't decide what Im talking here about, so keep ur idiotic rants for PMs! DON'T BOTHER TO REPLY.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:25 am

    Angry Mike is right, this is the Russian Civil Aviation thread... if anyone wants to speculate about what China might do with some An-124s and some Il-76s then perhaps it makes more sense for them to find or create a relevant thread in the section for China.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:45 am

    ..for assets Russian MILITARY is in desperate need of, those Il-76's and AN-123's will be in Russian Military hands.
    They have enough of them, incl. in storage, to modernize w/o any extra from Volga-Dnieper. A few dozen IL-476/8s r also on order.
    But the PLAAF is indeed desperate for Y-20- according to some, they need up to 400 of them. So, the more An-124-like planes they get, which they also need anyway, less Y-20s will need to be produced.
    Getting off topic happens on all threads; some moderators r guilty of that too. If some1 is against & annoyed by the word "China", it's their problem.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:38 am

    Russia is looking to expand its transport capacity and these aircraft plus their spares pool would be useful I suspect to boost their capacity.

    The PLAAF on the other hand should be fine because China can produce ships like sausages, so making some new transport aircraft shouldn't be a problem should it?

    I doubt VP will care who buy their old aircraft and spares and other bits and bobs, but the more money they get for them the more money will go to the people they owe money to so in that sense the higher bidder wins.

    As they have no existing An-124s in service or operation, I would expect the Chinese would not want to bid too high simply because it will cost them money to get service contracts and other support from whom ever they can find offering that service.

    Most of the equipment on board these aircraft will likely be Russian.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:02 am

    GarryB wrote:The PLAAF on the other hand should be fine because China can produce ships like sausages, so making some new transport aircraft shouldn't be a problem should it? ..
    As they have no existing An-124s in service or operation, I would expect the Chinese would not want to bid too high simply because it will cost them money to get service contracts and other support from whom ever they can find offering that service.
    Producing them in large #s will take a long time. To keep up with the demand, they imported IL-76s before production of Y-20 started & may be interested in buying An-124s before producing them.
    After getting their IL-76s, they set up full maintenance hangars,etc., & could do the same with An-124s. I'm sure they maintain their B-747/777s & A-380s now.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:46 am

    I believe that in case of war or other issues the VKS could have also tapped in using the An-124 currently at Volga Dnepr. If those airplane would be sold to China, that would not be possible anymore.

    It would make sense to integrate most of them in the airforce, possibly on a separate grouping, maybe keeping a few (3 or 4) of them available for commercial use within a dedicated cargo company (even an eventual new smaller Volga Dnepr)
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    Post  Austin on Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:26 am

    Austin wrote:This is a dedicated issue on PD-14 Engine , Any one understand Russia can put the key points

    http://www.kr-magazine.ru/archive/2019/krylya-rodiny-5-6-za-2019-god.html

    Any way to read the pdf translated into English online , This has wealth of data on PD-14 but pity it is in Russian.

    Can any one help here ? Thank You

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