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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

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    Post  kvs on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:20 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The gazeta article sucks as the so called experts are completely unaware of Russia's already existing manufacturing of composite materials used for the wings. Which was mentioned earlier.


    AFIK composites yes, all components composites'  mnufcturing not yet. They are yet to be certified for MS-21 usage . But this type of articles isnt it what we were discussion on economy thread?

    Sanctions and economics are primary variables in aircraft manufacturing. So thread sensitivity is misplaced.

    Looks like Russia has been deprived of quick access to western composite materials and will experience a ramp-up delay for its own production.

    I hope Russia imposes serious counter-sanctions on this US inspired BS. America is the country that deserves to be sanctioned for its brazen
    support of terrorist states like Saudi Arabia, its participation on the side of the Saudi invaders in Yemen where millions are in the process of
    starving to death, and the US meddling in basically every country around the world both militarily and through proxies. The market for
    Boeing and Airbus should be downsized by 80% in Russia, at the least.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:51 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The gazeta article sucks as the so called experts are completely unaware of Russia's already existing manufacturing of composite materials used for the wings. Which was mentioned earlier.


    AFIK composites yes, all components composites'  mnufcturing not yet. They are yet to be certified for MS-21 usage . But this type of articles isnt it what we were discussion on economy thread?

    The gazeta article states that experts thinks it will take 5 years for MS-21 (2025) since no composites of such are made in Russia. But a plant created in 2015 by Rosatom makes such composites so the experts are lying or they are completely unaware of such a plant.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:01 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    AFIK composites yes, all components composites'  mnufcturing not yet. They are yet to be certified for MS-21 usage . But this type of articles isnt it what we were discussion on economy thread?

    The gazeta article states that experts thinks it will take 5 years for MS-21 (2025) since no composites of such are made in Russia. But a plant created in 2015 by Rosatom makes such composites so the experts are lying or they are completely unaware of such a plant.

    Sorry, I've only now read gazeta. Mind that in the article there are no technical experts names. Like in western media "sources close to experts insisting on anonymity" ?

    expert with name no  1

    " this may take five years or more, said Anastasia Sosnova , analyst at Freedom Finance " - low rank  financial broker is  now material science expert?  affraid  affraid  affraid

    https://ffin.ru/
    About company
    IC Freedom Finance is a team of professionals who are passionate about their main and favorite business - the stock market. We love our work and we value it, and we are confident that only such an attitude towards the profession ensures success and a stable result.

    Mission and values
    Writing the best service for your investments in the largest companies in the world is the mission of Freedom Finance. This is our main landmark, which makes us constantly improve, since we set a decent high bar for ourselves.

    Read more
    Our principles
    Our activity is based on the observance of five key principles that determine our approaches to working with clients. These principles are a corporate standard, are shared by all employees of the company and are strictly followed.






    expert with name no 2:

    " Walter Construction" partner Vadim Tedeev. Checked:

    Since 2004, WALTER Construction has been actively involved in the implementation of large-scale investment projects in industrial construction.
    Successful development of the WALTER Construction activity logically led to the need to develop related areas. Today, WALTER Construction is a leading consultant in the domestic forest industry due to its rich practical experience on project implementation issues.

    One of the advantages of our company is the unique combination of Russian project management practices with international knowledge in an international environment. WALTER Construction pays special attention to the continuous improvement of the qualifications of its technical specialists.

    We are ready to provide professional support to our clients, deeply immersed in the project at any stage of its implementation.
    http://www.waltercompany.ru/projects/



    I'd  experts on  Gazeta's   professional level  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup

    BTW those companies use English names: Constructions or Freedom no Russian words there.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:15 am

    kvs wrote:
    Looks like Russia has been deprived of quick access to western composite materials and will experience a ramp-up delay for its own production.

    bad short term excellent in long term

    kvs wrote: I hope Russia imposes serious counter-sanctions on this US inspired BS.   America is the country that deserves to be sanctioned for its brazen
    support of terrorist states {}   The market forBoeing and Airbus should be downsized by 80% in Russia, at the least.

    Tht would harm Russia more thn US. by doing this you decrease hi tech export, fire hundreds or engineer and skilled staff. Hpowever both Boeing airbus will have only temporary problem. They gonna re-hire sacked Russians then. So expertise will be there.

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    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:23 pm

    Denis Manturov Interview

    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=2&nid=502169

    the IL-114 we will offer in the Indian market in a new look. Turboprop upgraded Il-114 is designed for air transportation in the class of passenger aircraft with up to 68 seats and cargo aircraft with a payload of up to 7 tons.


    Seems like IL-114V specs has now been increased to 7 Ton
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:26 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    kvs wrote: I hope Russia imposes serious counter-sanctions on this US inspired BS.   America is the country that deserves to be sanctioned for its brazen
    support of terrorist states {}   The market forBoeing and Airbus should be downsized by 80% in Russia, at the least.

    Tht would harm Russia more thn US. by doing this you decrease hi tech export, fire hundreds or engineer and skilled staff. Hpowever both Boeing airbus will have only temporary problem.  They gonna re-hire sacked Russians then. So expertise will be there.

    Well, only if they do that abruptly. If they decide to start substituting western aircrafts with Russian ones, especially in the domestic market, maybe subsidizing the acquisition or leasing of russian aircrafts and putting import taxes on new Boeing acquisitions, there would be no abrupt loss of airplanes and work needed.
    Therefore the russian engineers and technicians working on boeing stuff could gradually find jobs in the russian aircrafts maintenance.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:40 pm

    Austin wrote:Denis Manturov Interview

    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=2&nid=502169

    the IL-114 we will offer in the Indian market in a new look. Turboprop upgraded Il-114 is designed for air transportation in the class of passenger aircraft with up to 68 seats and cargo aircraft with a payload of up to 7 tons.


    Seems like IL-114V specs has now been increased to 7 Ton

    I believe you are mixing up the 2 projects.

    That is the low wing Il-114-300 (that will be offered in a civilian cargo version with a payload of 7 tons in addition to the classical passenger version).

    The Il-112V is a high wing military cargo, currently having some weights issues, with max payload limited from 6 to 5 tons (maybe the payload will be increased again after they fix the design for the later prototypes).

    I believe the Il-114 and the Il-112V are of similar size and share the same engines.

    At the moment it does not exist any aircraft designated Il-114V.

    The difference in payload could be due to different requirements for "hot and high" for the military cargo and for its increased robustness requirements.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:43 pm

    The composite material exist and being made in small scale of MS-21 program but they will now have to make it at industrial scale , plus the Russian composite on MS-21 has to go through some certification process hence the delay by late 2020.

    In a way its a blessing in disguise , MS-21 beats the MAX and NEO with 5 % fuel margin and neither Airbus or Boeing has any new Narrow body to launch any time soon. MAX is any way screwed up due to LION Air Crash where they forced FAA to accept some shortcoming ( MCAS issue etc ) , like FAA was pedling for Boeing.

    But MS-21 is bigger in fuselage and passenger comfort compared to B and A and is a new design , Chinese C919 is good but only as good as A320NEO like the chinese copied it to the I's and Dots. Laughing

    So all in all MS-21 has no competition in the short term and a year delay is fine which helps to use more Russian component in the aircraft.

    Right now they need to get it EASA certified and we can hope this goes off well
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    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:45 pm

    The now call the IL-114-300 as IL-114V

    The original specs for IL-114-300 was 64 pax with 6.5 T payload , I think with the new IL-114V they managed to make it better with 68 pax and 7 T in total payload.

    They are offereing it to India , I hope India goes for it.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:30 pm

    MS-21 - Pratt & Whitney still holds

    https://aviation21.ru/ms-21-prattwhitney-poka-derzhitsya/?_utl_t=tw
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:35 pm

    Until they resolve the wing issue by mass production. Then when all of that is said and done, US will put a ban on P&W engines then once again, back to waiting for PD-14 to finish. By then, the orders may drop down to near nothing cause airliners won't wait forever for a jet.

    Should have been from the start 100% Russian or at least using parts from friendly countries.  It's as if Irkutsk and majority of Russian managers/business men are living under a rock and unaware of what is happening in foreign relations.

    I'm not gonna lie. A part of me wants this jet to fail. Reason being as it will be a massive rude awakening to those in power and the managers that make such decision on a jet. Because of them, they are in this mess. If they just decided to use local, then they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:25 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Until they resolve the wing issue by mass production. Then when all of that is said and done, US will put a ban on P&W engines then once again, back to waiting for PD-14 to finish. By then, the orders may drop down to near nothing cause airliners won't wait forever for a jet.

    Should have been from the start 100% Russian or at least using parts from friendly countries.  It's as if Irkutsk and majority of Russian managers/business men are living under a rock and unaware of what is happening in foreign relations.

    I'm not gonna lie. A part of me wants this jet to fail. Reason being as it will be a massive rude awakening to those in power and the managers that make such decision on a jet.  Because of them, they are in this mess. If they just decided to use local, then they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

    It was not a bad idea, and it simplifies the acquisition of related technologies and the EASA certification of the aircraft. Already russian alternatives for the foreign parts exists, they just needed a little bit more time to be ready.
    this jet was always supposed to exist with two different engine suppliers (the same is true also for the airbus A320).


    This aircraft is much more modern and advanced than the Airbus A320neo and than the Boeing 737 Max (that is just an upgrade of a 55 years old design).

    If new aircrafts of this class are urgently needed, Russian airlines can still order Tu-204 SM in the meanwhile, that is still a more modern aircraft than the boeing 737 and has the only disadvantage of previous generation engine with higher fuel consumption.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:43 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Well, only if they do that abruptly. If they decide to start substituting western aircrafts with Russian ones, especially in the domestic market, maybe subsidizing the acquisition or leasing of russian aircrafts and putting import taxes on new Boeing acquisitions, there would be no abrupt loss of airplanes and work needed.
    Therefore the russian engineers and technicians working on boeing stuff could gradually find jobs in the russian aircrafts maintenance.


    Let me stay skeptical about this idea.


    Firstly: Transition for Russian made aircraft is happening for sometime already. Mind that you'll never ever need so many elements for titanium for Russian aerospace industry. Sheer size of market.


    Secondly there is huge gap between new products, materials and manufacturing tech and maintenance.

    Thirdly : export of hi tech stuff and increasing market share is the goal right not closed economy if Im correct.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:49 am

    Austin wrote:The now call the IL-114-300 as IL-114V

    The original specs for IL-114-300 was 64 pax with 6.5 T payload , I think with the new IL-114V they managed to make it better with 68 pax and 7 T in total payload.

    They are offereing it to India , I hope India goes for it.


    with "make in India" joint manufacturing pretty likely.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:12 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Until they resolve the wing issue by mass production. Then when all of that is said and done, US will put a ban on P&W engines then once again, back to waiting for PD-14 to finish. By then, the orders may drop down to near nothing cause airliners won't wait forever for a jet.

    Should have been from the start 100% Russian or at least using parts from friendly countries.  It's as if Irkutsk and majority of Russian managers/business men are living under a rock and unaware of what is happening in foreign relations.

    I'm not gonna lie. A part of me wants this jet to fail. Reason being as it will be a massive rude awakening to those in power and the managers that make such decision on a jet.  Because of them, they are in this mess. If they just decided to use local, then they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

    This is the disease the whole world has to deal with. The natural sycophancy of business to the west.

    If these companies have shareholders they should sue the last penny from these suckers. That would be a good way to send the message to similar
    clowns that sucking western cock is not part of their job description.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:56 am

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Until they resolve the wing issue by mass production. Then when all of that is said and done, US will put a ban on P&W engines then once again, back to waiting for PD-14 to finish. By then, the orders may drop down to near nothing cause airliners won't wait forever for a jet.

    Should have been from the start 100% Russian or at least using parts from friendly countries.  It's as if Irkutsk and majority of Russian managers/business men are living under a rock and unaware of what is happening in foreign relations.

    I'm not gonna lie. A part of me wants this jet to fail. Reason being as it will be a massive rude awakening to those in power and the managers that make such decision on a jet.  Because of them, they are in this mess. If they just decided to use local, then they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

    This is the disease the whole world has to deal with.   The natural sycophancy of business to the west.  

    If these companies have shareholders they should sue the last penny from these suckers.   That would be a good way to send the message to similar
    clowns that sucking western cock is not part of their job description.

    Well, in this case, they aren't sucking Western dick. They are just complete morons who want things here, now and cheap without thinking beyond their two feet.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:08 am

    IMO, ..a narrower one (but larger than An-124) with cabin floor of 17.4 feet (4.5 meters) could become a successful Russian jumbo.
    https://www.airway1.com/russia-plans-its-own-successor-to-the-ukrainian-an-124/

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #3 - Page 10 Hta-slon-elephant

    The Il-96 cabin width is 5.70 m; the B-747 is 6,08 m:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-96#Specifications
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747#Specifications

    The A-380 cabin widths r: 6.50 m main deck & 5.80 m upper deck
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380#Specifications

    Nobody needs Russian planes [except Aeroflot]. But they spend billions
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/04/03/ss100/


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:06 am

    MS-21 simulator: a modern crew training system has been created for the new liner

    https://uacrussia.livejournal.com/57826.html
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:13 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:

    Nobody needs Russian planes [except Aeroflot]. But they spend billions
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/04/03/ss100/
    (...) using google translate
    [i]Plans to create for 85 billion rubles a cut-down version of the Sukhoi Superjet 100 with 75 seats and a range of up to two thousand kilometers, suggesting a reduction in the share of imported components and partial unification with the Irkut MC-21, are unlikely to significantly improve the situation. If in the future the plane receives the Russian PD-7 engine, further Russification will inevitably lead to an increase in its cost and an increase in the problems arising with it, since creating a truly worthy alternative to foreign components will require not only money, but also a lot of time. The latter will make the Sukhoi Superjet 100 completely outdated and uncompetitive./i

    A lot of bulls**t.

    There are problems, but are being solved.
    Many of these problems are due to lack of investment in the civil aeronautical industry in the 90s and the early 2000 and in the lack of support for local produced good aircrafts like the widebody Il-96 and middle of the market Tu-204. This also caused a deterioration in the capability of the whole supply chain, that anyway in soviet time had a considerable part also in the ukraine.
    In addition the only Russian modern engine available was the 16 to 17.5 tons thrust PS-90 (derated to 14.5 tons for the il-76).
    The larger 23.6 tons thrust D18T (similar to the Rolls-Royce RB211) and the smaller D-436 (good for regional jets) where manufactured in Zaporozhe, that after 1992 ended up in a foreign country.

    The SaM146 is much better and modern than the 30 years old Ukrainian D436 and anyway half of its component are designed and produced in Russia.

    Anyway the amount of foreign parts is being reduced (we already discussed to the death about it), new modern components, not inferior to the western ones are being developed and tested and a russianized version of the superjet will be ready in a couple of years.

    It is possible that they were a bit naive when they started working with so many foreign companies, but at the time they did not have state of the art components for the whole aircraft. They could have only done a russian version of the An-148, that is one generation older and uses older technology and for which they were using foreign (ukrainian) outdated engines.
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    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:18 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Austin wrote:The now call the IL-114-300 as IL-114V

    The original specs for IL-114-300 was 64 pax with 6.5 T payload , I think with the new IL-114V they managed to make it better with 68 pax and 7 T in total payload.

    They are offereing it to India , I hope India goes for it.


    with "make in India" joint manufacturing pretty likely.

    Hope So but India has its own 70 Seater Regional Transport Aircraft on Drawing board so if India and Russia can work together for IL-114V program it would be benefit for both.

    Lets see

    If IL-114V turns competitive against its western peers like SSJ or MS-21 then it can sell abroad , I havent seen any comparasion table between IL-114V and its peers abroad
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:56 am

    It is possible that they were a bit naive when they started working with so many foreign companies, but at the time they did not have state of the art components for the whole aircraft. They could have only done a russian version of the An-148, that is one generation older and uses older technology and for which they were using foreign (ukrainian) outdated engines.

    Working with foreign companies was a good thing as it meant for some sales you had local support, but the western practise of using sanctions to kill competition makes any advantage simply not worth it...
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    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:35 am

    ТV7-117ST will power IL-114V http://klimov.ru/en/production/aircraft/TV7-117S-family/

    On the above link Klmov says "An Il-114 airliner equipped with TV7-117 engines can stay airborne for up to 9 hours"

    Can any one do a comparision how does it match up against P&W 127H engine that powered IL-114-100 ?

    I saw couple of videos of IL-114-100 and I thought the engine was quite not sure about power and other parameters.



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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:39 am

    Austin wrote:
    Hope So but India has its own 70 Seater Regional Transport Aircraft on Drawing board so if India and Russia can work together for IL-114V program it would be benefit for both.

    Lets see

    If IL-114V turns competitive against its western peers like SSJ or MS-21 then it can sell abroad , I havent seen any comparasion table between IL-114V and its peers abroad


    I think that technology transfer and possibility to re-expert Indian Il114 (vide Brahmos) could have pretty good chnces.
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    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:49 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Austin wrote:
    Hope So but India has its own 70 Seater Regional Transport Aircraft on Drawing board so if India and Russia can work together for IL-114V program it would be benefit for both.

    Lets see

    If IL-114V turns competitive against its western peers like SSJ or MS-21 then it can sell abroad , I havent seen any comparasion table between IL-114V and its peers abroad


    I think that technology transfer and possibility to re-expert Indian Il114 (vide Brahmos) could have pretty good chnces.

    I did not went to Aero India this time but the news is Russia has propsed IL-114V and IL-112 program with India ......lets see how far these goes.

    Any indian participation should be a bonus but Russia should be prepared to go it alone and make a competitive aircraft ....Indian decision making process is too slow and can take as good as a decade to decide or even to quit.
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    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:50 am

    I found this rather old and interesting video on IL-114-100 program , The P&W engine is around 2750 hp and the cockpit even for 90's is quite modern LCD based cockpit




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