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    Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

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    Aristide
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    Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:13 am

    Its funny. Few days ago some here laughed about France because we dont deliver airbus aircrafts to Iran, which needs new aircrafts desperatly.

    As it was not entirely clear for Iran if France would deliver Airbus or not...Iran insulted iranian aircrafts multiple times.

    Iran Air said again and again Sukhoi is not good enough for Iran Air

    https://financialtribune.com/articles/economy-domestic-economy/90307/senior-official-no-sukhoi-for-iran-air

    Now that Airbus does not deliver, Iran Air asked for Sukhoi Superjets and Russia was bocked from delivery. Because more than 10% of the Sukhoi Superjet are produced in USA, they fall
    under the same sanctions as Airbus does and dont deliver:

    https://en.trend.az/iran/3001151.html

    "Iran Air Tours, an Iranian airline, has recently signed an MOU to purchase 20 Sukhoi aircraft and another Iranian airline has drafted a lease agreement for three aircraft from the Russian company.

    However, despite the promise of the Russian company to replace the US-made parts with the Russian ones, it seems due to the failure to get a license from OFAC the contracts have been canceled.

    “Negotiations were held between Sukhoi Company and some Iranian airlines. They are ready to sign a memorandum of understanding and prepare to use the Sukhoi aircraft in Iran, either rent or purchase them,” Secretary of Iran's Aviation Companies Association Maghsoud Asadi Samani told Trend referring to the possibility of buying Sukhoi Superjet 100 from Russia.

    Referring to the US sanctions on Iran’s aviation, he says the only problem now is that the aircraft parts that Sukhoi produces is more than 10 percent American, so the licenses of the US Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) are required for sale of the aircraft to Iran."

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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:48 am

    So they will have to buy planes with no American parts... perhaps Tupolevs or Chinese planes.

    Amusing you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder... the problem is not Airbus, or Sukhoi... it is the US... and also partly Iran... can they not read an article on the internet and find aircraft that don't have American parts in their design?

    Or do they think if they sign a contract all the American parts will magically disappear...

    It is in Russias interests to have aircraft and products that do not have American components or ownership simply because a lot of their clients either can't buy or don't want to buy products with American components.

    Most of those countries don't have a lot of money so I understand why Airbus doesn't give a rats ass...
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:50 am

    Aristide wrote:Its funny. Few days ago some here laughed about France because we dont deliver airbus aircrafts to Iran, which needs new aircrafts desperatly.

    As it was not entirely clear for Iran if France would deliver Airbus or not...Iran insulted iranian aircrafts multiple times.

    Iran Air said again and again Sukhoi is not good enough for Iran Air

    https://financialtribune.com/articles/economy-domestic-economy/90307/senior-official-no-sukhoi-for-iran-air

    Now that Airbus does not deliver, Iran Air asked for Sukhoi Superjets and Russia was bocked from delivery. Because more than 10% of the Sukhoi Superjet are produced in USA, they fall
    under the same sanctions as Airbus does and dont deliver:

    https://en.trend.az/iran/3001151.html

    "Iran Air Tours, an Iranian airline, has recently signed an MOU to purchase 20 Sukhoi aircraft and another Iranian airline has drafted a lease agreement for three aircraft from the Russian company.

    However, despite the promise of the Russian company to replace the US-made parts with the Russian ones, it seems due to the failure to get a license from OFAC the contracts have been canceled.

    “Negotiations were held between Sukhoi Company and some Iranian airlines. They are ready to sign a memorandum of understanding and prepare to use the Sukhoi aircraft in Iran, either rent or purchase them,” Secretary of Iran's Aviation Companies Association Maghsoud Asadi Samani told Trend referring to the possibility of buying Sukhoi Superjet 100 from Russia.

    Referring to the US sanctions on Iran’s aviation, he says the only problem now is that the aircraft parts that Sukhoi produces is more than 10 percent American, so the licenses of the US Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) are required for sale of the aircraft to Iran."


    The first article is from last summer, and the second does not add anything new.
    Russia is working on a version without american components and it should be ready in a couple of years. Btw, they already certified the APU that will replace the american one, and KRET will provide new avionics and navigation systems but I read somewhere there could be problems for the french engine parts of the powerjet. I do not know if they have to wait the PD7 engine to be ready before being able to sell to Iran. In the meanwhile, if Iran was interested they could sell them some Tu-204 (the Tu-204SM has some american components, also in the PS-90A2 engine, and that stopped the sale in the past, but there is a version used by the russian military that should be completely russian) and il-114 turboprop too (Iran tried to order the similar french-italian ATR-72)
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:So they will have to buy planes with no American parts... perhaps Tupolevs or Chinese planes.

    Amusing you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder... the problem is not Airbus, or Sukhoi... it is the US... and also partly Iran... can they not read an article on the internet and find aircraft that don't have American parts in their design?

    Or do they think if they sign a contract all the American parts will magically disappear...

    It is in Russias interests to have aircraft and products that do not have American components or ownership simply because a lot of their clients either can't buy or don't want to buy products with American components.

    Most of those countries don't have a lot of money so I understand why Airbus doesn't give a rats ass...
    the only modern chinese passenger aircraft already in production is a regional jet (the Comac ARJ21) , that is in the same class of the ssj100, but with older generation technology, and anyway it could not be sold to Iran because it contains many american parts and mounts an american engine, the GE CF-34.

    Anyway, the upgraded Tu-204 has no worse performance than the airbus a320 or Boeing 737 with old engines (the "modernised" A320neo and B737max have a better fuel economy).

    In addition, if Iran want a widebody, Russia could even sell them a few il-96!!!
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:So they will have to buy planes with no American parts... perhaps Tupolevs or Chinese planes.

    Amusing you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder... the problem is not Airbus, or Sukhoi... it is the US... and also partly Iran... can they not read an article on the internet and find aircraft that don't have American parts in their design?

    Or do they think if they sign a contract all the American parts will magically disappear...

    It is in Russias interests to have aircraft and products that do not have American components or ownership simply because a lot of their clients either can't buy or don't want to buy products with American components.

    Most of those countries don't have a lot of money so I understand why Airbus doesn't give a rats ass...

    That aside, and also your hate against France...

    Dont you find Irans behavior ridicolous? Even when the deal with Airbus started to crumble, they did reject russian airplanes as garbage and trash and said they have zero interest in russian aircrafts.

    The quality of russian aircrafts aside...that appears rather idiotic for me.

    I dont see Iran in the position to act that pompous. Even more so, that they then suddenly say Sukhoi is good, when the Airbus deal busted.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:48 pm

    Aristide wrote:
    GarryB wrote:So they will have to buy planes with no American parts... perhaps Tupolevs or Chinese planes.

    Amusing you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder... the problem is not Airbus, or Sukhoi... it is the US... and also partly Iran... can they not read an article on the internet and find aircraft that don't have American parts in their design?

    Or do they think if they sign a contract all the American parts will magically disappear...

    It is in Russias interests to have aircraft and products that do not have American components or ownership simply because a lot of their clients either can't buy or don't want to buy products with American components.

    Most of those countries don't have a lot of money so I understand why Airbus doesn't give a rats ass...

    That aside, and also your hate against France...

    Dont you find Irans behavior ridicolous? Even when the deal with Airbus started to crumble, they did reject russian airplanes as garbage and trash and said they have zero interest in russian aircrafts.

    The quality of russian aircrafts aside...that appears rather idiotic for me.

    I dont see Iran in the position to act that pompous. Even more so, that they then suddenly say Sukhoi is good, when the Airbus deal busted.

    it is possible that, at that time they were promised the possibility to use the money that the old government of the iranian Shah had in western banks before 1979, but only to buy western aircraft.
    Aristide
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:50 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Aristide wrote:
    GarryB wrote:So they will have to buy planes with no American parts... perhaps Tupolevs or Chinese planes.

    Amusing you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder... the problem is not Airbus, or Sukhoi... it is the US... and also partly Iran... can they not read an article on the internet and find aircraft that don't have American parts in their design?

    Or do they think if they sign a contract all the American parts will magically disappear...

    It is in Russias interests to have aircraft and products that do not have American components or ownership simply because a lot of their clients either can't buy or don't want to buy products with American components.

    Most of those countries don't have a lot of money so I understand why Airbus doesn't give a rats ass...

    That aside, and also your hate against France...

    Dont you find Irans behavior ridicolous? Even when the deal with Airbus started to crumble, they did reject russian airplanes as garbage and trash and said they have zero interest in russian aircrafts.

    The quality of russian aircrafts aside...that appears rather idiotic for me.

    I dont see Iran in the position to act that pompous. Even more so, that they then suddenly say Sukhoi is good, when the Airbus deal busted.

    it is possible that, at that time they were promised the possibility to use the money that the old government of the iranian Shah had in western banks before 1979, but only to buy western aircraft.

    ha ha ha those few cents?
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:14 pm

    Aristide wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Aristide wrote:
    GarryB wrote:So they will have to buy planes with no American parts... perhaps Tupolevs or Chinese planes.

    Amusing you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder... the problem is not Airbus, or Sukhoi... it is the US... and also partly Iran... can they not read an article on the internet and find aircraft that don't have American parts in their design?

    Or do they think if they sign a contract all the American parts will magically disappear...

    It is in Russias interests to have aircraft and products that do not have American components or ownership simply because a lot of their clients either can't buy or don't want to buy products with American components.

    Most of those countries don't have a lot of money so I understand why Airbus doesn't give a rats ass...

    That aside, and also your hate against France...

    Dont you find Irans behavior ridicolous? Even when the deal with Airbus started to crumble, they did reject russian airplanes as garbage and trash and said they have zero interest in russian aircrafts.

    The quality of russian aircrafts aside...that appears rather idiotic for me.

    I dont see Iran in the position to act that pompous. Even more so, that they then suddenly say Sukhoi is good, when the Airbus deal busted.

    it is possible that, at that time they were promised the possibility to use the money that the old government of the iranian Shah had in western banks before 1979, but only to buy western aircraft.

    ha ha ha those few cents?
    cents? They were several billions dollars in the 1980s
    This is an archive article drom 1981


    NEW YORK -- The shah of Iran had about $7.2 billion in assets, of which approximately $4 billion has been traced, the MidEast Report said Wednesday.

    The Iranian government Tuesday filed a $36 billion lawsuit in New York against 65 defendants, most of them relatives of the late Shah, in an attempt to recover his wealth.


    The New York-based newsletter, quoting Iranian government sources, said the late Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi transferred billions of dollars out of Iran beginning in 1974, partly in the form of loans to members of his family that were never repaid.

    David Mizrahi, editor of the MidEast Report, said the Iranian sources indicated that Atisaz Corp., a construction company 97 percent owned by Mohammed Behbehanian, the late Shah's treasurer who is currently in hiding, was used to transfer funds.

    Mizrahi said Atisaz transferred at least $15 million to personal Pahlavi accounts through Bank Omran, through a bank in Milwaukee and the New York branch of a Swiss bank.

    Mizrahi said Benbehanian was presumably fronting for the shah.

    The newsletter said some of these funds were used to purchase real estate in New York, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston and Oklahoma City.

    Some of the transfers from Iran were made through U.S. corporations and banks as well as some New York investment houses, Mizrahi said.

    In addition to Behbehanian, MidEast report identified the principal Iranian operatives for the Shah as: Abolfath Mahvi, currently living in Monte Carlo, who was involved in the purchase of computers, aircraft, nuclear reactors and other high-technology equipment; Dr. Houshang Ram, chairman of Bank Omran, presently in jail in Tehran; Jaafa Sharif Emami, former chairman of the Pahlavi Foundation and former prime minister of Iran; Hushang Ansari, former finance minister who has a home in New York; and Cyrus Ansari, his brother, who has a law and investment office in Washington.



    Read more: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/01/14/The-shah-of-Iran-had-about-72-billion-in/6085348296400/#ixzz5bkow7KO9

    GarryB
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:54 am

    That aside, and also your hate against France...

    I don't hate France... just some French governments, and certain actions they made in the past, and their current toadying attitude to the US...

    ...and the attitude of some French people I know...

    Dont you find Irans behavior ridicolous? Even when the deal with Airbus started to crumble, they did reject russian airplanes as garbage and trash and said they have zero interest in russian aircrafts.

    Actually I agree... there is a saying... beggars can't be choosers... if they don't want Russian aircraft that is fine... they can buy Fijian Airliners... Hahahahaha.

    The quality of russian aircrafts aside...that appears rather idiotic for me.

    If they had any brains they would be wanting licence production contracts... in which case the build quality would be totally up to them...

    If they had any brains they would not be insulting companies that they might end up having to work with when the US steps up its sanctions and contemplates invasion...

    I am sure Assad regrets his behaviour towards Russia and towards the west before the revolution in his country...

    Gaddafi didn't live long enough to regret his concessions to the west to curry favour...

    I dont see Iran in the position to act that pompous. Even more so, that they then suddenly say Sukhoi is good, when the Airbus deal busted.

    The fundamental problem is that Iran and Russia have no history of alliances or friendship... as recently as the 1980s the Iranians were supporting the opposition to Soviet troops in Afghanistan...

    cents? They were several billions dollars in the 1980s
    This is an archive article drom 1981

    Goldman Sachs gloated about how they robbed Gaddafi blind during his dabble in the west... there are plenty of western companies that made fortunes robbing dictators around the world... the sad thing is that it was not the dictators wealth they were stealing... it was the country... and they will never see that back.

    If I was Libyan I would get US citizenship and then start a window breaking campaign... twice a week I would break as many windows in as many Goldman Sachs buildings as I could... nice big expensive windows... set fire to a few other buildings too... you would never get that money back, but you can be a pain in the ass to those bastards.

    Of course some could escalate it and target workers and their families, but I think material damage is a more civilised response to their criminality...
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:55 am

    Iran could invest in the "stopped/cancelled" Tu-334 program, & Russia would benefit from it too.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-334#Variants

    Iran got some of its $ back by Obama Admin. after the nuclear deal was reached. They could get more $ if/when the oil prices go up when Saudi Arabia/Iraq implodes & once the North-South Russia-India rail/sea route via Iran come fully online.
    The sad part is that even if they get all those $ back, there won't be much to buy in the West, including France, with sanctions still in place.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:55 am

    Here the list of foreign components in the ssj100

    http://www.defenseworld.net/news/24008/Sukhoi_Reducing_US_made_Components_in_SSJ100_Aircraft_to_Enable_Iran_Exports#.XDRsdVM5I0M

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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:03 am

    The sad part is that even if they get all those $ back, there won't be much to buy in the West, including France, with sanctions still in place.

    What a western centrist thing to say... how about this... give them THEIR money back and see what they do with it... the thing of course is, that first of all the west wont give back money stolen fair and square... they have been doing that for centuries, and secondly even if they did give the money back they would demand the money could only be spent on their products and not anyone elses.

    Here the list of foreign components in the ssj100

    Hahahaha... it actually says a model with reduced American parts will be cheaper... so in effect these US sanctions means Iran gets a cheaper plane and US companies miss out on sales and support contracts... sounds like a win win.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The sad part is that even if they get all those $ back, there won't be much to buy in the West, including France, with sanctions still in place.

    What a western centrist thing to say... how about this... give them THEIR money back and see what they do with it... the thing of course is, that first of all the west wont give back money stolen fair and square... they have been doing that for centuries, and secondly even if they did give the money back they would demand the money could only be spent on their products and not anyone elses.

    Here the list of foreign components in the ssj100

    Hahahaha... it actually says a model with reduced American parts will be cheaper... so in effect these US sanctions means Iran gets a cheaper plane and US companies miss out on sales and support contracts... sounds like a win win.

    pretty much not.

    The EU alone can singel handed cut Iran out of air.

    All iranian airlines are currently blocked from entering EU airspace because security reasons. Only excemption is Iran Air.

    If Iran Air is blocked as well and if the EU installs full sanctions on Iran...Iran cant fly any airplane outside iranian airspace.

    Right now, Iran only works, because the Eu doesnt follow the US sanctions. As soon the EU would install the same sanctions, Iran is dead.

    Why? because tehy could not even land on foreign airports or fuel their aircrafts abroad.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:Gaddafi didn't livelong enough to regret his concessions to the west to curry favour...

    One of the devastating consequences of the 1991 event is that, more people became susceptible to the West's baits.

    Even until now, many people still blindly believe that the USSR lost in the cold war because it was ineffective and backward, not because Gorbachyov et al. backstabbed the country and betrayed the people.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 pm

    USSR had to reform economically if it was to survive.So the West would still kinda "win" even if USSR and the Warsaw Pact remained in place
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:57 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:USSR had to reform economically if it was to survive.So the West would still kinda "win" even if USSR and the Warsaw Pact remained in place


    Call BS here. Countries change political systems at will. There is no political system that is sacred. Geography, population characteristics, technological development, international environment, moment in history, decides what is best every time. Systems serve the people, not vise versa.
    Russia and China where the 2 main eastern powers in 1945. They lost around 3 million square kilometers of sphere of influence, mainly in eastern Europe between 1945 and 2008. West lost at least India, possibly also Brazil and vast colonial lands in Africa and Asia, more than 10 million square kilometers in total.
    No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:31 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:USSR had to reform economically if it was to survive.So the West would still kinda "win" even if USSR and the Warsaw Pact remained in place


    Call BS here. Countries change political systems at will. There is no political system that is sacred. Geography, population characteristics, technological development, international environment, moment in history, decides what is best every time. Systems serve the people, not vise versa.
    Russia and China where the 2 main eastern powers in 1945.  They lost around 3 million square kilometers of sphere of influence, mainly in eastern Europe between 1945 and 2008. West lost at least India, possibly also Brazil and vast colonial lands in Africa and Asia, more than 10 million square kilometers in total.
    No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.  

    Russins live like shit then and eastern europe more and more became a poverty house. The living standards of an east german, pole or russian would have been unacceptable for a french person.

    Just a hint for you, the living standard of an unemployed french person on welfare is almost 5 times the living standard of a russian worker today.


    With all due respect, a country that doesnt give me the living standards that i enjoy now...deserves death.

    Also calling Russia a "power" is ridicolous. I visited Russia last year. A country that in large areas cant give their people normal living conditions is no power. What i saw was ok in city centers and outside of city centers...worthless trash.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:44 pm

    The return of the legend!  cheers bounce  welcome
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:59 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:The return of the legend!  cheers bounce  welcome

    Glad that you accept my points, since they were simple truth.

    Why you think did millions run away from the east? Why did they need to build a wall in Berlin to lock their own people in?

    Because it was so great there? People escaped by the millions. I know what life i have and i know what would be an unacceptable life for me.

    I simply could not live under conditions like the eastern bloc. Basicly being locked in a grey open world prison. No way to see the world. No way to buy what i want. No way to live like i want.

    If France would be like the eastern bloc i would eitehr have tried to get out as quick as possible as well or if not possible, sabotage the rulling system that doesnt allow my to live like i want.

    If you look at russia today you see a failed state. A state with some rich oligarchs, gargantuan corruption. A nation unable to fullfill the basic needs of its population.

    I was born several years after the cold war ended but my father told me some things. France back then had relative good relations to the east as well and he traveleld there on multiple occassions.

    As a french guy you were treated like a god in eastern germany. The cities were old and shabby. The people had no money to renew their houses. The air was dirty because tehy fired only brown coal. The nature was in bad shape.

    The individual people were nice and kind but always afraid.

    Thats why the east lost. It was a system that lived on etrror and it was unable to compete.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:40 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.

    I think more correctly it should be called as the decentralization of world powers, at 190x only a small number of colonial empires dominate the whole world, but now we have BRICS, and many regional powers.

    That is result of the destruction of colonial systems after the World Wars. Colonial system and imperialism prevent free trade, meanwhile the independence and growth of Third World Countries will facilitate free trade and market competition at international level. So free trade is not provided by the West, free trade is gained via the endless struggle of emerging powers, including the Soviet Union, the first country who had the ability to challenge Western hegemony.
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:55 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:No conclusion yet, but despite the huge tactical errors, even between 1945 and 2008 the net result is positive for the Eurasian powers.

    I think more correctly it should be called as the decentralization of world powers, at 190x only a small number of colonial empires dominate the whole world, but now we have BRICS, and many regional powers.

    That is result of the destruction of colonial systems after the World Wars. Colonial system and imperialism prevent free trade, meanwhile the independence and growth of Third World Countries will facilitate free trade and market competition at international level. So free trade is not provided by the West, free trade is gained via the endless struggle of emerging powers, including the Soviet Union, the first country who had the ability to challenge Western hegemony.

    History doesnt start with 15th century. Russia itself is a western country even more so during the cold war. That entire communism bullshit was a western european pipedream from some intellectual elitists.
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:56 pm

    Aristide wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:The return of the legend!  cheers bounce  welcome

    Glad that you accept my points, since they were simple truth.

    Why you think did millions run away from the east? Why did they need to build a wall in Berlin to lock their own people in?

    Because it was so great there? People escaped by the millions. I know what life i have and i know what would be an unacceptable life for me.

    I simply could not live under conditions like the eastern bloc. Basicly being locked in a grey open world prison. No way to see the world. No way to buy what i want. No way to live like i want.

    If France would be like the eastern bloc i would eitehr have tried to get out as quick as possible as well or if not possible, sabotage the rulling system that doesnt allow my to live like i want.

    If you look at russia today you see a failed state. A state with some rich oligarchs, gargantuan corruption. A nation unable to fullfill the basic needs of its population.

    I was born several years after the cold war ended but my father told me some things. France back then had relative good relations to the east as well and he traveleld there on multiple occassions.

    As a french guy you were treated like a god in eastern germany. The cities were old and shabby. The people had no money to renew their houses. The air was dirty because tehy fired only brown coal. The nature was in bad shape.

    The individual people were nice and kind but always afraid.

    Thats why the east lost. It was a system that lived on etrror and it was unable to compete.

    France is almost in a civil war now because the politicians and the rich people are like the aristocracy during Louis XVI.


    Recently I have seen something like that in Europe (I call Europe the subcontinent including Russia, not the political Union) only during the protests.in Ukraine of 5 years ago.


    it's possible that this time nothing will happen but the situation is really tense and there are already problems also between poor people (e.g. first and second generation immigrants vs "original frenchmen").

    In addition there are a lot of very difficult situations in France, especially in the suburbs, and the cost of living is much higher than in eastern Europe or Russia. When you check the purchasing power a poor person in France is not that much better off than in Russia or Poland (of course, if you compare with Ukraine or Georgia it's another matter, but they are in an horrible situation because their politicians sold their lands to the exploiters and the normal citizens trusted them).

    Also France has still more money than the eastern countries because it continues to exploit the former African colonies and to destabilise the entire African continent and, together with UK and US is one of the main responsible of the migrants crisis (German wrong policies also, but they happened after the problem was already there). It is like celebrating the lifestyle of a big criminal or mafia boss and saying that a such kingpin and his family is can afford much more than a poor but honest family...

    For the moderators: this discussions probably would fit better in the politics of the EU thread....
    higurashihougi
    higurashihougi

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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:36 pm

    Aristide wrote:History doesnt start with 15th century. Russia itself is a western country even more so during the cold war. That entire communism bullshit was a western european pipedream from some intellectual elitists.

    Communism is not the product of western europe. The concept of communism appeared in all society, all countries, since the time of prehistoric period. Never heard of "đại đồng" in East Asian or "Golden Era" in Greek Mythology ?

    What Karl Marx, Engels, Lenin and their colleagues struggle for, is not beehive communism, but scientific socialism. In simplest form, they want the properties and means of production return back to their rightful owners, that is working class, and the working class will be the one who take the positions in government.

    When I say working class, I mean all kind of working people who contribute to the society and productivity, and when I say "working class will be the one who take the positions in government" I means highly trained working people who is able to manage the country competently, not the idiots who said "La République n'a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes".

    And Russia is not Western, Russia adopt the centralized government inherit from the Golden Horde, with distinctive Eastern traits of political system, that is the sacred value of patriotism, the respect for government, respect for order and traditions, and the orthodoxy of state figures.

    And actually Russian Federation and USSR are not only Slavic people... there are Chechens, Tuvas, Kazaks, Kavkazs, Kalmyks... guess what, Stalin and Beria are Georgians. Mekhlis is a Jew. And Shoigu is a Tuvan.
    Aristide
    Aristide

    Posts : 449
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    Join date : 2017-12-31
    Age : 21
    Location : Aix-en-Provence

    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:52 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Aristide wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:The return of the legend!  cheers bounce  welcome

    Glad that you accept my points, since they were simple truth.

    Why you think did millions run away from the east? Why did they need to build a wall in Berlin to lock their own people in?

    Because it was so great there? People escaped by the millions. I know what life i have and i know what would be an unacceptable life for me.

    I simply could not live under conditions like the eastern bloc. Basicly being locked in a grey open world prison. No way to see the world. No way to buy what i want. No way to live like i want.

    If France would be like the eastern bloc i would eitehr have tried to get out as quick as possible as well or if not possible, sabotage the rulling system that doesnt allow my to live like i want.

    If you look at russia today you see a failed state. A state with some rich oligarchs, gargantuan corruption. A nation unable to fullfill the basic needs of its population.

    I was born several years after the cold war ended but my father told me some things. France back then had relative good relations to the east as well and he traveleld there on multiple occassions.

    As a french guy you were treated like a god in eastern germany. The cities were old and shabby. The people had no money to renew their houses. The air was dirty because tehy fired only brown coal. The nature was in bad shape.

    The individual people were nice and kind but always afraid.

    Thats why the east lost. It was a system that lived on etrror and it was unable to compete.

    France is almost in a civil war now because the politicians and the rich people are like the aristocracy during Louis XVI.


    Recently I have seen something like that in Europe (I call Europe the subcontinent including Russia, not the political Union) only during the protests.in Ukraine of 5 years ago.


    it's possible that this time nothing will happen but the situation is really tense and there are already problems also between poor people (e.g. first and second generation immigrants vs "original frenchmen").

    In addition there are a lot of very difficult situations in France, especially in the suburbs, and the cost of living is much higher than in eastern Europe or Russia. When you check the purchasing power a poor person in France is not that much better off than in Russia or Poland (of course, if you compare with Ukraine or Georgia it's another matter, but they are in an horrible situation because their politicians sold their lands to the exploiters and the normal citizens trusted them).

    Also France has still more money than the eastern countries because it continues to exploit the former African colonies and to destabilise the entire African continent and, together with UK and US is one of the main responsible of the migrants crisis (German wrong policies also, but they happened after the problem was already there). It is like celebrating the lifestyle of a big criminal or mafia boss and saying that a such kingpin and his family is can afford much more than a poor but honest family...

    For the moderators: this discussions probably would fit better in the politics of the EU thread....


    You clearly dont know french history when you believe those protests now are almost civil war.

    It was much worse in 1968.

    Its normal for our people to accept nothing. We would storm the kremlin and hang Putin on the walls there for his bad economic politics.

    Russians accept too much from their government.

    Aristide
    Aristide

    Posts : 449
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    Join date : 2017-12-31
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    Re: Russia does not sell Iran Sukhoi Jet

    Post  Aristide on Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:59 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Aristide wrote:History doesnt start with 15th century. Russia itself is a western country even more so during the cold war. That entire communism bullshit was a western european pipedream from some intellectual elitists.

    Communism is not the product of western europe. The concept of communism appeared in all society, all countries, since the time of prehistoric period. Never heard of "đại đồng" in East Asian or "Golden Era" in Greek Mythology ?

    What Karl Marx, Engels, Lenin and their colleagues struggle for, is not beehive communism, but scientific socialism. In simplest form, they want the properties and means of production return back to their rightful owners, that is working class, and the working class will be the one who take the positions in government.

    When I say working class, I mean all kind of working people who contribute to the society and productivity, and when I say "working class will be the one who take the positions in government" I means highly trained working people who is able to manage the country competently, not the idiots who said "La République n'a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes".

    And Russia is not Western, Russia adopt the centralized government inherit from the Golden Horde, with distinctive Eastern traits of political system, that is the sacred value of patriotism, the respect for government, respect for order and traditions, and the orthodoxy of state figures.

    And actually Russian Federation and USSR are not only Slavic people... there are Chechens, Tuvas, Kazaks, Kavkazs, Kalmyks... guess what, Stalin and Beria are Georgians. Mekhlis is a Jew. And Shoigu is a Tuvan.

    Communism is the product of idiocy.

    The sacred value of patriotism, respect for order and traditions is a deep french and western euroepan value. How else do you think we conquered the world? With chaos and disorder? Compared to any western european country, Russia is deeply corrupted and has by far not as much patriotism as for example France, UK or Italy. It also is far less centralized than France.

    As for communism...communism fails and will always fail because people are individuals. I think i´m better than most others. That may be true or not but it guids my actions. I want more than others and a capitalist system allows me to do just that. In a communist system i would be deeply unhappy and i would do evrything to either escape this or fight it. Since there are millions like me, evry communist system is doomed to fail.

    And Russia for hundreds of years did evrything to be part of the west. You do realize that France and Russia have a long shared history? The russian czars and aristocracy orientated themself on France.




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