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    How Should Countries Respond If Their Passenger Flight Is Shot Down By The US ?

    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:12 am

    I've been thinking about this topic for quite a few days.

    Iran Air Flight 655 was a scheduled passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai when on 3rd July, 1988 it was shot down by the US Navy. They later claimed it was a case of mistaken identity. Though that's clearly a lie because military radars can easily distinguish between a civil aircraft & a military aircraft.

    So, in the future if the US military decides to shoot down another passenger flight especially of a Asian or African nation, how should these countries react? They probably won't be able to fight militarily against the US because the US will retaliate with nuclear weapons.

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    Post  Aristide on Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:30 am

    jhelb wrote:I've been thinking about this topic for quite a few days.

    Iran Air Flight 655 was a scheduled passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai when on 3rd July, 1988 it was shot down by the US Navy. They later claimed it was a case of mistaken identity. Though that's clearly a lie because military radars can easily distinguish between a civil aircraft & a military aircraft.

    So, in the future if the US military decides to shoot down another passenger flight especially of a Asian or African nation, how should these countries react?  They probably won't be able to fight militarily against the US because the US will retaliate with nuclear weapons.


    Ignore it and move on.

    It appears our french airforce accidently shot down an italian airliner in 1980. Both France and Italy remain silent about it. Families got compensation and thats it. Such things happen.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:58 pm

    Well you picked an unfortunate example... I studied the incident with the Iranian airliner and it was an accident, but only because the much vaunted AEGIS class cruiser was faulty, and of course the fact that it even happened would be considered an act of war by any other country...

    Very simply the Americans were several kms inside Iranian territorial waters when the shootdown took place.

    There was actually a film crew on board the American ship at the time of the incident.

    In the end the US top crewmen got medals but also early retirement, and the US paid compensation... only a pitiful amount though... nothing like the 500 odd million the US court has awarded that American kid that died shortly after getting home after being held in North Korea...

    Regarding your question.... it comes down to leverage... most countries have very little over the US, while others have rather more than they realise but are not using it... lots of rich Americans making a lot of money and becoming rather richer with casinos in China...

    In the current system the US either controls all the relevant international organistations, or they just ignore them when they decide something the Americans don't like... a future multipolar world might not be that much different but certainly wont be any worse.
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    Post  Aristide on Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well you picked an unfortunate example... I studied the incident with the Iranian airliner and it was an accident, but only because the much vaunted AEGIS class cruiser was faulty, and of course the fact that it even happened would be considered an act of war by any other country...

    Very simply the Americans were several kms inside Iranian territorial waters when the shootdown took place.

    There was actually a film crew on board the American ship at the time of the incident.

    In the end the US top crewmen got medals but also early retirement, and the US paid compensation... only a pitiful amount though... nothing like the 500 odd million the US court has awarded that American kid that died shortly after getting home after being held in North Korea...

    Regarding your question.... it comes down to leverage... most countries have very little over the US, while others have rather more than they realise but are not using it... lots of rich Americans making a lot of money and becoming rather richer with casinos in China...

    In the current system the US either controls all the relevant international organistations, or they just ignore them when they decide something the Americans don't like... a future multipolar world might not be that much different but certainly wont be any worse.

    Reality is that such events are usually just used for propaganda or gain something.

    China gives a shit about a civilian airline, It would simply use the case for propaganda.

    A multipolar world of USA, EU, China and Russia wont change anything about that.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:43 am

    Look at how bat shit crazy the US got when the world trade centre had two towers dropped by Al Quada... most of the 3,000 odd people killed weren't even American...

    The fact is that nobody is going to ignore a foreign country shooting down one of their planes.... whether by accident or on purpose.

    They might not be able to actually do anything about it, but in future when you get a choice... for anything... you remember.
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    Post  Aristide on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:52 am

    GarryB wrote:Look at how bat shit crazy the US got when the world trade centre had two towers dropped by Al Quada... most of the 3,000 odd people killed weren't even American...

    The fact is that nobody is going to ignore a foreign country shooting down one of their planes.... whether by accident or on purpose.

    They might not be able to actually do anything about it, but in future when you get a choice... for anything... you remember.

    That cant be compared. The WTC was a symbol in the US most important city. No nation would let allow this. And USA acted even in a responsible way.

    Do you have the slightest idea about the french answer regarding the bataclan attack? France send out kill teams who did ex-judical killings in Iraq, Syria, Morocco and Algeria.

    Those killings included terrorists, their women and children.

    Such a terror attack cant be compared to an accidental shotdown of an airplane.

    France and Italy are allied but it looks like France shot down an italian airliner in the 80th. This case was dealed under the table.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:36 am

    That cant be compared. The WTC was a symbol in the US most important city. No nation would let allow this. And USA acted even in a responsible way.

    Ahhh bullshit.... some Pakistanis and some Saudis flew planes into a commercial building and the Pentagon and so the US of A invades Iraq and Afghanistan... yeah... super responsible...

    Do you have the slightest idea about the french answer regarding the bataclan attack? France send out kill teams who did ex-judical killings in Iraq, Syria, Morocco and Algeria.

    Those killings included terrorists, their women and children.

    Yeah, we all know France is batshit crazy... it is obviously why you dicks are so eager to believe shit like Putin ordered the Skripal murders...

    Such a terror attack cant be compared to an accidental shotdown of an airplane.

    The shoot down was intentional... we are told it was mistaken identity...

    It was actually basic design flaws...

    France and Italy are allied but it looks like France shot down an italian airliner in the 80th. This case was dealed under the table.

    There is a difference between an accident or misunderstanding, and intentional provocation... US exbomber types continually tried to enter Soviet air space before satellite recon was good enough, but even afterwards they still flew provocatively to test the defences and record radar and radio frequencies and standard interception proceedure... it is pretty much what got KAL 007 shot down...
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    Post  Aristide on Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    That cant be compared. The WTC was a symbol in the US most important city. No nation would let allow this. And USA acted even in a responsible way.

    Ahhh bullshit.... some Pakistanis and some Saudis flew planes into a commercial building and the Pentagon and so the US of A invades Iraq and Afghanistan... yeah... super responsible...

    Do you have the slightest idea about the french answer regarding the bataclan attack? France send out kill teams who did ex-judical killings in Iraq, Syria, Morocco and Algeria.

    Those killings included terrorists, their women and children.

    Yeah, we all know France is batshit crazy... it is obviously why you dicks are so eager to believe shit like Putin ordered the Skripal murders...

    Such a terror attack cant be compared to an accidental shotdown of an airplane.

    The shoot down was intentional... we are told it was mistaken identity...

    It was actually basic design flaws...

    France and Italy are allied but it looks like France shot down an italian airliner in the 80th. This case was dealed under the table.

    There is a difference between an accident or misunderstanding, and intentional provocation... US exbomber types continually tried to enter Soviet air space before satellite recon was good enough, but even afterwards they still flew provocatively to test the defences and record radar and radio frequencies and standard interception proceedure... it is pretty much what got KAL 007 shot down...

    The responsible answer to 911 would have been a nuclear strike on Mecca, Medina, Islamabad, Kabul and Tehran.

    As for our answer to the terror attacks...our nations answer silenced ISIS. After those oeprations ISIS was no longer capable to operate in France. We targeted their families. They saw their families die and so did they.

    As for Skripal, Gary nobody believes anything. Its diplomacy. Its in french interest to keep the conflict running. Maybe it was even done by ourself. Some details indicate this.

    It happened short before worldcup. It did some damage against Russia, it lost its value and is not pushed for any longer

    You want tell me Russia doesnt do such stunts? Thats naive.

    Anyway i must go buy stuff for new years eve. Sushi, burgers, chips, vine ect for me, family and friends.

    Wish yu happy new year
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:09 pm

    hahahaha... same old euro bullshit... we are the civilised ones... until you cross us.

    Muslim terrorists have nothing on christian crusaders for violence and ruthlessness.

    911 was a responsible response to US actions around the world...

    As for our answer to the terror attacks...our nations answer silenced ISIS. After those oeprations ISIS was no longer capable to operate in France. We targeted their families. They saw their families die and so did they.

    Dick.... your bombing of Libya and Syria created tens of thousands of new followers for ISIS around the world... and the terror attacks in France keep coming...

    As for Skripal, Gary nobody believes anything. Its diplomacy. Its in french interest to keep the conflict running. Maybe it was even done by ourself. Some details indicate this.

    If it was my job, they would be dead... wait until they are on a bus with French tourists in London and blow the bus up... next mornings headline on page 5... a bus was blown up in London yesterday... we would have put it on page one but it seems it was not the IRA, and two Russians and some French people died... in fact we only mention the incident because it was a new bus...

    It happened short before worldcup. It did some damage against Russia, it lost its value and is not pushed for any longer

    It was excellent... they should keep doing that sort of thing... one english drug addict died so no harm no foul... the more the west separates itself from Russia the better it is for Russia... Russia is a huge resource, and it is also a shortcut transport route between Asia and the EU... but if the EU wants to follow US commands and distance itself from Russia then the rest of the world will only benefit... transport to Asia from Australia and New Zealand is relatively quick and cheap, and for the US, Russia is only a potential competitor... but they wont say potentially a huge ally of the EU... if the EU listens to the US it can continue to trade with the US and spend the extra costs to keep trading with Asia, and the US will be happy. Or it could tell the US to mind its own business (and by the way that is exactly what the US is doing... Minding ITS business...), and use Russia to trade much faster and cheaper with Asian countries... including China, but also Japan and South Korea and Malaysia and all the other growing economies there...

    But the EU is Americas bitch... American sanctions have cost the US very little because there was very little trade with Russia and that which their was... still seems to be continuing... they still buy Russian rockets and Titanium from Russia still goes into US aircraft including Boeings and F-35s... On the other hand trade with Russia for the EU was something like 100 billion dollars a year and that has collapsed because of US SANCTIONS...

    EU can't even lead itself and you think it can lead the world...

    You want tell me Russia doesnt do such stunts? Thats naive.

    Name them...

    Wish yu happy new year

    You too... Smile

    New Year is already 10 hours old here...
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:27 am

    GarryB wrote:It was excellent... they should keep doing that sort of thing... one english drug addict died so no harm no foul... the more the west separates itself from Russia the better it is for Russia... Russia is a huge resource, and it is also a shortcut transport route between Asia and the EU... but if the EU wants to follow US commands and distance itself from Russia then the rest of the world will only benefit... transport to Asia from Australia and New Zealand is relatively quick and cheap, and for the US, Russia is only a potential competitor... but they wont say potentially a huge ally of the EU... if the EU listens to the US it can continue to trade with the US and spend the extra costs to keep trading with Asia, and the US will be happy. Or it could tell the US to mind its own business (and by the way that is exactly what the US is doing... Minding ITS business...), and use Russia to trade much faster and cheaper with Asian countries... including China, but also Japan and South Korea and Malaysia and all the other growing economies there...

    But the EU is Americas bitch... American sanctions have cost the US very little because there was very little trade with Russia and that which their was... still seems to be continuing... they still buy Russian rockets and Titanium from Russia still goes into US aircraft including Boeings and F-35s... On the other hand trade with Russia for the EU was something like 100 billion dollars a year and that has collapsed because of US SANCTIONS...

    The problem is that people still use dollar for international trade, and as far as I know (1) US-base plutocrats and banks have effective means to block the flow of dollars if somebody does not obey and (2) for some reason the EU still have to use dollar for multinational trade rather than their own currency, probably the EU leaders don't want the fate of Ngo Dinh Diem, may be ?

    As far as I know, the US is using that dollar power in the RUSAL affair and Russia have to make some concession.

    Hopefully the none-dollar trade system will mature fast enough.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:58 am

    It is actually Ironic... the US dollar as a weapon is the best weapon the US should never have used.

    Demand for US dollars for international trade was the core of Americas wealth and prosperity, and when they started using it as a weapon they have destroyed it.

    In the 1990s there was talk about using it against Russia and other countries but really it was only used against hard core minority countries like Iran and North Korea.

    The problem with using the US dollar as a weapon is that its real value is in everyone using it, so anyone cut off would really suffer... sort of like isolating a country from the international community.

    The fundamental issue is that Russia and China are too big... the former has too much in the way of mouth watering resources, and the latter has a huge population of potential customers... when the US started using the dollar as a weapon against these countries they signed their own death warrant.

    The value of being the standard international currency for trade makes the US rich and powerful, but by using the power it creates they undermine it as a reliable currency for international trade.

    I just bought some bits and pieces from a Russian company. I used my Visa card and I paid in Roubles.

    If I had bought these things 5 years ago they would have wanted US dollars, but clearly they don't trust the US not to cut them off so they are using their own currency... demand for Roubles is good for Russia.

    If I had objected to using roubles they probably would have accepted Euros or even Paypal or some crypto currency... either way, working in different currencies is not actually a problem... for them or for me... I am happy to deal in roubles... I bought 20,000 roubles worth of things firearm related and it cost me about $460 new zealand dollars. I have since made another order...

    The point is that the US dollar as the standard international exchange currency was the golden goose... of course the US and some fierce US allies will continue to demand US dollars for payment, but at the end of the day a huge amount of trade just changed from US dollars to Yen and Roubles and Euros and many other currency options to avoid attacks from the US and to reduce any damage they could do in the future...

    America continuing to shoot itself in the foot.

    Note previously if I had to pay for Russian products from Russia in US dollars, I would be paying for US dollars and the Russians would end up with US dollars, so there are at least two currency transactions needed for one transaction... America made money on both of those... but with this transaction they make nothing.

    The US is isolating itself and costing itself funds generated in international business.

    Vann complains that Putin is not aggressive enough against the west and should be treating the west as the enemy, but that was never a war they could win that way.

    This way, Russia is stronger and in full control of its resources and can ensure that the Russian people benefit from the natural resources of the country... its new strength will help it develop better relations with the non western countries of the world, which will benefit and help develop both sides.

    Before it was just Russia talking about non US dollar trade.... now Turkey and India and China and Russia and the BRICs countries are going that way and this list will only expand.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:42 am

    GarryB wrote:hahahaha... same old euro bullshit... we are the civilised ones... until you cross us.

    Muslim terrorists have nothing on christian crusaders for violence and ruthlessness.

    911 was a responsible response to US actions around the world...

    As for our answer to the terror attacks...our nations answer silenced ISIS. After those oeprations ISIS was no longer capable to operate in France. We targeted their families. They saw their families die and so did they.

    Dick.... your bombing of Libya and Syria created tens of thousands of new followers for ISIS around the world... and the terror attacks in France keep coming...

    As for Skripal, Gary nobody believes anything. Its diplomacy. Its in french interest to keep the conflict running. Maybe it was even done by ourself. Some details indicate this.

    If it was my job, they would be dead... wait until they are on a bus with French tourists in London and blow the bus up... next mornings headline on page 5... a bus was blown up in London yesterday... we would have put it on page one but it seems it was not the IRA, and two Russians and some French people died... in fact we only mention the incident because it was a new bus...

    It happened short before worldcup. It did some damage against Russia, it lost its value and is not pushed for any longer

    It was excellent... they should keep doing that sort of thing... one english drug addict died so no harm no foul... the more the west separates itself from Russia the better it is for Russia... Russia is a huge resource, and it is also a shortcut transport route between Asia and the EU... but if the EU wants to follow US commands and distance itself from Russia then the rest of the world will only benefit... transport to Asia from Australia and New Zealand is relatively quick and cheap, and for the US, Russia is only a potential competitor... but they wont say potentially a huge ally of the EU... if the EU listens to the US it can continue to trade with the US and spend the extra costs to keep trading with Asia, and the US will be happy. Or it could tell the US to mind its own business (and by the way that is exactly what the US is doing... Minding ITS business...), and use Russia to trade much faster and cheaper with Asian countries... including China, but also Japan and South Korea and Malaysia and all the other growing economies there...

    But the EU is Americas bitch... American sanctions have cost the US very little because there was very little trade with Russia and that which their was... still seems to be continuing... they still buy Russian rockets and Titanium from Russia still goes into US aircraft including Boeings and F-35s... On the other hand trade with Russia for the EU was something like 100 billion dollars a year and that has collapsed because of US SANCTIONS...

    EU can't even lead itself and you think it can lead the world...

    You want tell me Russia doesnt do such stunts? Thats naive.

    Name them...

    Wish yu happy new year

    You too... Smile

    New Year is already 10 hours old here...

    You make a big mistake. Killing can be civilized if done with style.

    The response to the terrorists was not pure bombing. In most cases kill team were send who dealt with them and their families.

    And christian crusaders? Are you for real? You do know the crusades were a response to almost 500 years muslim agression?

    As for Skripal...nobody wanted them dead. If you want blame someone, let them alive to tell the tale. You are rather ignorant about whats going on in the world.

    Same about your bullshit about EU-Russia trade.

    We still trade what we want. Gas and Titanium. Beside that Russia has nothing to offer. And the majority of transport is done via ship but also per train. Name me a single train from asia that was stopped from Russia.

    Putin is in desperate need for money.

    Australia and even more so small new zealand are no competitor for EU.

    Too tell you how much bullshit you spew, is Russia going to build a channel from China to EU so cargo ships can go through Russia? I have a hint for you...trains can never be as cheap as cargo ships and also not as efficient.

    You say USA still buys Titanium and rockets from Russia? Fine, We also buy Titanium from Russia. So you say we should stop buying Titanium from Russia or what?

    What we dont buy from Russia is rockets, because we build our own.

    To get your numbers right, Trade between France and Russia at no point was above one billion.

    And recently it is rising.

    You have the slightest idea why the Nordstream 2 pipeline is still under construction even so USA want stop it?

    Its because France defends it. Because french corporations are involved.

    France always stands for its own interests and defends it fiercly.

    Who you think countered Trumps sanctions? Merkel was in pure fear and tried to calm things down, when trump put tariffs on EU products.

    It was France that started the counter attack. Which forced the EU to answer. To take over 25 billion € from Google and Apple. To install counter tariffs on american products.

    In the end Trump gave by, because we put our tariffs on his voter base. Punished small american farmers, targeted republican voting states.

    Does that mean we must be friend with Russia? No, we side with Russia where it suits us and we use conflict where this suits us better.

    It would be idiotic to drop the sanctions on russia in certain fields.

    Want one example? We want Titanium from Putin. We drool over it...guess what happens to Titanium price since we put Russia under sanctions?

    How Should Countries Respond If Their Passenger Flight Is Shot Down By The US ? GraphEngine.ashx?z=t&dr=5y&gf=135619.

    Vladi needs the income...to compensate for the sanctions and has to sell more Titanium. This drops the price.

    Where do you see me say that i want EU to lead the world? The world is way below us. The EU must serve first and for all our own interests. France above anything.

    The trade war USA-China for example is pure gold for us. The conflict with Russia adds positive aspects for that. We pick whats good, stay out of most of it.

    As for Russias stunts, we all know them. It amusies me that you claim to be smart but believe that Russia as diplomatic player acts like a catholic nun.

    P.s.

    Do you dont make new years party over there?


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