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    Syrian War: News #19

    ultimatewarrior
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:52 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:SAA lost their gains on the East Side of Khan but made good progress on the West Side if they can hold it from the counter-attack, they are in a position they can start to raid the city.

    Stop lying. SAA took Saker and Tal Saker on the east, so they haven't lost anything in the east.

    SAA will never attack Khan Sheikhon directly. It's a big settlement and heavily defended.

    In the west they are going for Kafr Sajnah to cut M5 highway and besiege Khan Sheikhon. There is only 1 small village between Kafr Sajnah and M5 highway. Kafr Sajnah is much smaller than Khan Sheikhon, and much easier to take.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:59 am

    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:SAA lost their gains on the East Side of Khan but made good progress on the West Side if they can hold it from the counter-attack, they are in a position they can start to raid the city.

    Stop lying. SAA took Saker and Tal Saker on the east, so they haven't lost anything in the east.

    SAA will never attack Khan Sheikhon directly. It's a big settlement and heavily defended.

    In the west they are going for Kafr Sajnah to cut M5 highway and besiege Khan Sheikhon. There is only 1 small village between Kafr Sajnah and M5 highway. Kafr Sajnah is much smaller than Khan Sheikhon, and much easier to take.

    Wrong they lost their gains on the Sukaik Axis don't reply to me with incorrect information.
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:21 pm

    This was from the 14 August. Anyone put up a similar analysis as to what has happened over the past couple of days?

    Operation Idlib Dawn Update - TTG

    Syrian War: News #19 - Page 34 6a00d8341c72e153ef0240a4762485200c-300wi

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (7:00 A.M.) – The Syrian Arab Army (SAA) scored a big advance in the southwestern countryside of the Idlib Governorate this past weekend. Led by the Tiger Forces, the Syrian military meticulously advanced along the Hama-Idlib axis over the weekend, seizing one site after another from the militants.

    This advance by the Syrian Arab Army eventually led to the capture of Al-Hobeit in southwestern Idlib, marking the first time that they have established a foothold in this part of the governorate since 2014.

    In the Anna News video below, the Syrian Arab Army’s operation is chronicled from its start to its conclusion: (Al Masdar News)

    —————

    Yes, the SAA’s strategy of careful conservation of their forces while pressuring the jihadis with a mixture of surprise maneuvers, persistence and the application of massive, precision firepower is bearing fruit. The Anna News video explains much of this quite well. Pay particular attention to the use of night assaults and long range precision sniping with T-72 and T-90 tanks equipped with thermal imaging sights. Air and artillery precision strikes are aided by aerial drones. As far back as the mid-70s, the Benning School for Boys taught us that if you can be seen, you can be killed. We learned to make use of “the minute folds in the terrain” as cover and concealment to keep our light infantry asses from being blown off. You can see the SAA infantrymen doing the same thing. “Those are regulars, by God!”

    This victory is more than just another town in Idlib. It is of great military significance. As someone mentioned in the video, Khan Sheikhoun and the M5 is within sight of al Hobeit at a distance of eight kilometers. How confident are the Syrians that they can keep this town? On August 12 the Syrian Defense Minister visited al Hobeit. That’s confidence.

    The jihadis in Khan Sheikhoun not only have to sweat the Tiger Force at al Hobeit, they face a similar threat to their east. In a surprise assault, the SAA took the high ground of Tal Sukayk and the town of Sukayk capturing large quantity of jihadi arms and ammunition in the process. These SAA forces are now ten kilometers from Khan Sheikhoun. A massive jihadi counterattack on Tal Sukayk was repelled with massive losses to the jihadis in both men and equipment. The SAA is moving more forces into both these fronts. The goal appears to be an envelopment of Khan Sheikhoun from the east and west isolating a cauldron of jihadis in their strongholds of Latamanah and Morek. The jihadis have two choices. Either die in place without Turkish resupply or have the living Jesus knocked out of them by Syrian and Russian air assets as they evacuate through Khan Sheikhoun.

    This is not the only good news from Idlib Dawn. The 4th Armored Division is finally on the verge of entering Kabani. The 42nd Brigade has seized the entire Zuwayqat Mountains south of Kabani from the jihadis. In this battle, Russian assault helicopters, including the all weather Mi-28N attack helicopters, lead the assault in close coordination with the 42nd Brigade’s advance. The Zuwayqat Mountains and the town of Kabani overlook the entire al Ghaab Plain and the important town of Jish al Shigour. That the 42nd Brigade was able to do this after more than two months of heavy offensive operations is a testament to their discipline and professionalism.

    Syrian War: News #19 - Page 34 6a00d8341c72e153ef0240a49f55c3200d-120wi

    As of this morning, the Tiger Force has advanced past al Hobeit to Kafr Ayn, Mantar and Tal Aas. They are now three kilometers from Khan Sheikhoun. I smell a bubbling cauldron forming... with a Turkish observation post inside.


    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/08/operation-idlib-dawn-update-ttg.html
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:54 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:Turkey wastes 100,000 USD Kornet missile bought from Russia on a cheap 57 mm gun. Shocked dunno

    https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/1161334883177959424

    $100,000?

    I doubt it's anywhere near that much. Maybe a ready unit (launcher + sights + rockets), but not each individual rocket.

    A baseline Metis missile costs about $5000 for comparison
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:23 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:Turkey wastes 100,000 USD Kornet missile bought from Russia on a cheap 57 mm gun. Shocked dunno

    https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/1161334883177959424

    $100,000?

    I doubt it's anywhere near that much. Maybe a ready unit (launcher + sights + rockets), but not each individual rocket.

    A baseline Metis missile costs about $5000 for comparison

    Kornet is basically ground launched Vikhr. BGM-71 costs 60 grand. Fagot costs about 20 grand. Konkurs costs about 40 grand. Kornet is laser guided, not TOW like these other ones. Much more expensive. 100 grand or more is likely. Kornet is so expensive SAA only uses it sparingly. To waste Kornet on cheap pickups and machine guns means Turkey must have bought thousands if not tens of thousands of Kornet from Russia.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:24 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:SAA lost their gains on the East Side of Khan but made good progress on the West Side if they can hold it from the counter-attack, they are in a position they can start to raid the city.

    Stop lying. SAA took Saker and Tal Saker on the east, so they haven't lost anything in the east.

    SAA will never attack Khan Sheikhon directly. It's a big settlement and heavily defended.

    In the west they are going for Kafr Sajnah to cut M5 highway and besiege Khan Sheikhon. There is only 1 small village between Kafr Sajnah and M5 highway. Kafr Sajnah is much smaller than Khan Sheikhon, and much easier to take.

    Wrong they lost their gains on the Sukaik Axis don't reply to me with incorrect information.

    What gains? You mean Tal Teri? I don't think they ever took that. They went as far as Sukayk hill and village. So they haven't lost anything on the eastern front. The western front is the important front. They go after Kafr Sajanah and then 1 more village and they cut M5 highway and besiege Khan Sheikhon and Tamanah.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:26 pm

    JohninMK wrote:This was from the 14 August. Anyone put up a similar analysis as to what has happened over the past couple of days?

    Operation Idlib Dawn Update - TTG

    Syrian War: News #19 - Page 34 6a00d8341c72e153ef0240a4762485200c-300wi

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (7:00 A.M.) – The Syrian Arab Army (SAA) scored a big advance in the southwestern countryside of the Idlib Governorate this past weekend. Led by the Tiger Forces, the Syrian military meticulously advanced along the Hama-Idlib axis over the weekend, seizing one site after another from the militants.

    This advance by the Syrian Arab Army eventually led to the capture of Al-Hobeit in southwestern Idlib, marking the first time that they have established a foothold in this part of the governorate since 2014.

    In the Anna News video below, the Syrian Arab Army’s operation is chronicled from its start to its conclusion:  (Al Masdar News)

    —————

    Yes, the SAA’s strategy of careful conservation of their forces while pressuring the jihadis with a mixture of surprise maneuvers, persistence and the application of massive, precision firepower is bearing fruit. The Anna News video explains much of this quite well. Pay particular attention to the use of night assaults and long range precision sniping with T-72 and T-90 tanks equipped with thermal imaging sights. Air and artillery precision strikes are aided by aerial drones. As far back as the mid-70s, the Benning School for Boys taught us that if you can be seen, you can be killed. We learned to make use of “the minute folds in the terrain” as cover and concealment to keep our light infantry asses from being blown off. You can see the SAA infantrymen doing the same thing. “Those are regulars, by God!”

    This victory is more than just another town in Idlib. It is of great military significance. As someone mentioned in the video, Khan Sheikhoun and the M5 is within sight of al Hobeit at a distance of eight kilometers. How confident are the Syrians that they can keep this town? On August 12 the Syrian Defense Minister visited al Hobeit. That’s confidence.

    The jihadis in Khan Sheikhoun not only have to sweat the Tiger Force at al Hobeit, they face a similar threat to their east. In a surprise assault, the SAA took the high ground of Tal Sukayk and the town of Sukayk capturing large quantity of jihadi arms and ammunition in the process. These SAA forces are now ten kilometers from Khan Sheikhoun. A massive jihadi counterattack on Tal Sukayk was repelled with massive losses to the jihadis in both men and equipment. The SAA is moving more forces into both these fronts. The goal appears to be an envelopment of Khan Sheikhoun from the east and west isolating a cauldron of jihadis in their strongholds of Latamanah and Morek. The jihadis have two choices. Either die in place without Turkish resupply or have the living Jesus knocked out of them by Syrian and Russian air assets as they evacuate through Khan Sheikhoun.

    This is not the only good news from Idlib Dawn. The 4th Armored Division is finally on the verge of entering Kabani. The 42nd Brigade has seized the entire Zuwayqat Mountains south of Kabani from the jihadis. In this battle, Russian assault helicopters, including the all weather Mi-28N attack helicopters, lead the assault in close coordination with the 42nd Brigade’s advance. The Zuwayqat Mountains and the town of Kabani overlook the entire al Ghaab Plain and the important town of Jish al Shigour. That the 42nd Brigade was able to do this after more than two months of heavy offensive operations is a testament to their discipline and professionalism.

    Syrian War: News #19 - Page 34 6a00d8341c72e153ef0240a49f55c3200d-120wi

    As of this morning, the Tiger Force has advanced past al Hobeit to Kafr Ayn, Mantar and Tal Aas. They are now three kilometers from Khan Sheikhoun. I smell a bubbling cauldron forming... with a Turkish observation post inside.


    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/08/operation-idlib-dawn-update-ttg.html

    This is the latest situation on the western front. Madayah has fallen. Abdin is next.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECE1WbzUEAYX8f0?format=jpg&name=large
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:27 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:SAA lost their gains on the East Side of Khan but made good progress on the West Side if they can hold it from the counter-attack, they are in a position they can start to raid the city.

    Stop lying. SAA took Saker and Tal Saker on the east, so they haven't lost anything in the east.

    SAA will never attack Khan Sheikhon directly. It's a big settlement and heavily defended.

    In the west they are going for Kafr Sajnah to cut M5 highway and besiege Khan Sheikhon. There is only 1 small village between Kafr Sajnah and M5 highway. Kafr Sajnah is much smaller than Khan Sheikhon, and much easier to take.

    Wrong they lost their gains on the Sukaik Axis don't reply to me with incorrect information.

    Mods, I suggest a month ban for this Russia hater who does not accept facts and hate Russia.
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:00 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:Turkey wastes 100,000 USD Kornet missile bought from Russia on a cheap 57 mm gun. Shocked dunno

    https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/1161334883177959424

    $100,000?

    I doubt it's anywhere near that much. Maybe a ready unit (launcher + sights + rockets), but not each individual rocket.

    A baseline Metis missile costs about $5000 for comparison

    Kornet is basically ground launched Vikhr. BGM-71 costs 60 grand. Fagot costs about 20 grand. Konkurs costs about 40 grand. Kornet is laser guided, not TOW like these other ones. Much more expensive. 100 grand or more is likely. Kornet is so expensive SAA only uses it sparingly. To waste Kornet on cheap pickups and machine guns means Turkey must have bought thousands if not tens of thousands of Kornet from Russia.

    Fagot costs 20 grand, Konkurs costs 40 grand - where are you getting these figures from?
    Perhaps, when they were first produced.

    But the baseline Metis missile (not Metis-M or M1) costs about $5000 (maybe that's just its after-market price though); most probably due to minituarization and better technology, which cheapened components and allowed them to exclude the most expensive parts from the missile itself, and just have it on the launcher

    The Kornet is a laser-beam rider. This doesn't neccessitate the need for some powerful laser homing seeker; rather just a powerful laser on the launcher itself, and a receiver on the missile.
    If it I had to guess, I'd say that the missile would cost no more than $25,000
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:37 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:Turkey wastes 100,000 USD Kornet missile bought from Russia on a cheap 57 mm gun. Shocked dunno

    https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/1161334883177959424

    $100,000?

    I doubt it's anywhere near that much. Maybe a ready unit (launcher + sights + rockets), but not each individual rocket.

    A baseline Metis missile costs about $5000 for comparison

    Kornet is basically ground launched Vikhr. BGM-71 costs 60 grand. Fagot costs about 20 grand. Konkurs costs about 40 grand. Kornet is laser guided, not TOW like these other ones. Much more expensive. 100 grand or more is likely. Kornet is so expensive SAA only uses it sparingly. To waste Kornet on cheap pickups and machine guns means Turkey must have bought thousands if not tens of thousands of Kornet from Russia.

    Fagot costs 20 grand, Konkurs costs 40 grand - where are you getting these figures from?
    Perhaps, when they were first produced.

    But the baseline Metis missile (not Metis-M or M1) costs about $5000 (maybe that's just its after-market price though); most probably due to minituarization and better technology, which cheapened components and allowed them to exclude the most expensive parts from the missile itself, and just have it on the launcher

    The Kornet is a laser-beam rider. This doesn't neccessitate the need for some powerful laser homing seeker; rather just a powerful laser on the launcher itself, and a receiver on the missile.
    If it I had to guess, I'd say that the missile would cost no more than $25,000

    152.4 / 155 mm artillery shell is said to be 10 grand. ATGM is only going to be more expensive. 50 grand for TOW type, 100 grand for laser guided type is reasonable assumption.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:34 am

    When they first came out the Metis-M1 was something like $13,000 on the international market, they were designed to not need expensive components... even the Vikhr has two control surfaces instead of four but can manouver well enough because it rolls as it flys so two control surfaces are enough to get the job done with half the necessary control surface servo motors.

    The Vikhr and the Kornet and the tank gun launched missiles like Svir use a rear facing laser sensor... it is nothing like a TV camera... it is more of a laser detector than an imaging system... it is very simple and cheap... that is why they use it over command guidance channels with a radio command signal like they use with Shturm and Ataka before the Krisantema replacement and the Kornet and tank gun launched weapons.

    Put an imaging IR sensor in an anti tank missile and of course you make it too expensive to use... like the $300,000 cost per missile for Javelin, which is probably more expensive now, the Russians could easily have made it very expensive, but state run companies don't work on margins they work for the defence of Russia.

    Have seen claims Kornet is expensive... the exported ones are not cheap because they are selling them for profit and they are very very capable missiles so they can demand top dollar. For domestic use however they are much much cheaper.

    Very simply with the Russian military budget how many could they afford to buy if they were expensive?

    So I have gone to the international trade website that shows international sales of weapons:

    www.sipri.com

    particularly this page:

    http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php

    And put in Russia as the supplier and India as the recipient, and the subject of the search as being missiles and in 2003 there was an India order for 3,000 Kornets including 250 launchers for 1.5 billion Indian rupees... which works out at about 21 million US dollars, which makes the 3000 Kornets they bought plus the 250 launchers equal to about 7 thousand dollars each.

    Obviously with thermal sights the launchers were probably 20-50 thousand each, and the missiles were rather cheaper...

    In fact if you take it that they bought 3,000 missiles and 250 launchers then they bought 3250 items for 21 million dollars... which makes each item about $6.5K each, though obviously the launchers were likely rather more, which makes the missiles probably rather less...

    This is of course the E model, and not the newer EM models but in practical terms there wont be an enormous difference in price... the EM model probably has all new electronic components but by now they will probably be cheaper to make than the older components... the price of the missiles themselves wont be that much different.

    Note the Indian sale of weapons is the ideal example because India gets their missiles at much closer to the real price of them than Turkey would... who might have paid 4 times more... but it would still be worth it.
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    Post  nero on Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:26 am

    https://twitter.com/Bosni94/status/1162833251897155584

    Tal al Nar captured by the Syrian army.

    Rakaya and villages to the East (next to M5 highway) will likely follow suite in the next few hours.

    This now directly threatens Kafr Sajnah.

    https://twitter.com/Bosni94/status/1162829394097954816

    Additionally, the Syrians have captured Kafr Nabudah farms, just NW of the town. Effectively it is now surrounded, as the Syrians can fire upon anyone entering or leaving the town from Al Habit, the farms or Sukayk.

    Imo the offensive north isn't going to stop until they take Kafr Sajnah.

    There's also been reports of convoys destroyed, which were heading to Kafr Nabudah.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:36 am

    The western media are silent on all of this, so they either don't care or actually support the eradication of these terrorists now that some have come to western countries to live and a noticeable increase in knife crime has occurred...
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:The western media are silent on all of this, so they either don't care or actually support the eradication of these terrorists now that some have come to western countries to live and a noticeable increase in knife crime has occurred...

    Got no problem with the lack of coverage Garry. The less there is in the press the less likely it is that Trump, or his nutty advisors, will feel pressured to do something stupid.

    The real worry would be if the MSM suddenly decided to pump up coverage.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:The western media are silent on all of this, so they either don't care or actually support the eradication of these terrorists now that some have come to western countries to live and a noticeable increase in knife crime has occurred...

    I recall this beahviour in the NATO MSM before. When things are going bad for their agenda, they just ignore it. When the
    agenda fulfilling "rebels" are succeeding they have plenty of gleeful coverage. I guess there are no short term plans to stage
    another "chemical weapons atrocity" so there is no build-up propaganda.

    But I expect them to go for this tired shtick again when a major city will be about to fall. The average NATO MSM consumer
    can't tell the difference between their ass and their mouth. To this day no actual reason for chemical weapons use for
    special atrocity occasions has been identified but they keep on thinking this transparent BS is plausible. The SAA fights
    99.9% of the time without chemical weapons but for some nutty reason just out of the blue throws a chemical bomb at
    some irrelevant civilians that has utterly zero military effect. Sure thing, there CNN et al. You are all so credible with
    your hysterical accusations. Naturally, there is no real physical evidence of any such bombs being used. And there
    is plenty of evidence of White Helmet jihadis staging all sorts of videos and photos and then traipsing in flipflops and with
    bare hands through allegedly sarin contaminated zones. Seriously, why have a brain at all to lap this shit up?

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    Post  nomadski on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:27 pm

    Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran. Fifty thousand dead. Unknown number injured. If Iran had retaliated  to this, even with very limited chemical weapon counter-attack. Fifty thousand would not die. Halabja would not happen. Saddam did not use chemicals against allies in 1991. Maybe because they would retaliate in kind. Hitler did not use it either in WW2. I guess for same reason. The Rats started the chemical war. The pre-curser chemicals coming from Europe through Turkey. A limited counter-strike would render this terror tactic useless...............
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    Post  nero on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:52 am

    Syrians have taken a point in Khan Shaikhun, it will likely fall within next few days. Completing the cauldron.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:27 am

    nero wrote:Syrians have taken a point in Khan Shaikhun, it will likely fall within next few days. Completing the cauldron.

    Not just any point, highest point in the vicinity

    They have fire control over whole town from there




    They also took Nimr checkpoint, apparently big deal

    https://twitter.com/syria_map/status/1163211580391284786




    Latest rumor, don't know how reliable source is because I haven't been keeping up lately thanks to mod-supported spamm troll:

    https://twitter.com/StrategicNews1/status/1163225886482673665

    Syrian War: News #19 - Page 34 ECSbxiNWwAck5en
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:00 am

    Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran.

    My memory of the time, Saddam used chemical weapons on what the west/US later called his own people, but were in reality Kurdish separatists... it suited the western anti saddam agenda to describe them as his own people... makes him sound more mad.

    Made me laugh at the time because I was reading about US biological tests where they released germs in parts of a US city and monitored the local hospitals to see how it spread. People died but they didn't have any idea it was the US government experimenting on its own people.

    They also got terminally ill patients and injected them with plutonium to see what effect it would have. Strangely enough they didn't turn into super heros... they died.
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    Post  nero on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:13 pm

    Turkey tried to establish an observation post in Khan Shaykhun, to prevent Syrians from taking it. Didn't get further than Maarat Al Nuuman, before one of the rebel escorts they had with them got blown up. From this we know that:

    1. Syrians can strike the Turkish convoy with impunity
    2. Syrians have superb observation of entire M5 highway, as they were able to hit a rebel escort with deadly precision, which requires them at minimal to know where he was located
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    Post  zorobabel on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:47 pm

    Must not stop the advance this time, no matter what stupid tricks the Turks are up to
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:15 pm

    This is why Russia never should have let Turkey take over Afrin in the first place.

    Now the best option is to send an assassin and shoot Erdogan in the head like what happened to Hitler. A secular Turkey is good new for Russia. Erdogan is trouble for Russia.
    ultimatewarrior
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:17 pm

    If Erdogan directly uses Turkish army to invade Syria to recreate Ottoman empire, Russia can supply thousands more Kornet missiles to SAA and blow up every Turkish tank. Also incite secular factions in Turkey to rise up and overthrow Erdogan.
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    Post  zorobabel on Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:12 pm

    Airstrikes nailed a jihadist column that was moving from Afrin to Idlib.

    https://en.muraselon.com/2019/08/watch-afrin-forces-convoy-annihilated-by-air-force-strikes-in-idlib/
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:29 pm

    nero wrote:Turkey tried to establish an observation post in Khan Shaykhun, to prevent Syrians from taking it. Didn't get further than Maarat Al Nuuman, before one of the rebel escorts they had with them got blown up. From this we know that:

    1. Syrians can strike the Turkish convoy with impunity
    2. Syrians have superb observation of entire M5 highway, as they were able to hit a rebel escort with deadly precision, which requires them at minimal to know where he was located


    Only jihadists in the convoy were hit while there wasn't a scratch on Turks despite being next to each other, there is no way Syrian planes pulled that off

    This has VKS written all over it, especially since Turkey is complaining specifically about Russia to Washington Post even though they supposedly weren't there

    Jig is up, Turks need to wrap it up an get out of Dodge, there was nothing for them to do there from the get go and everyone knew that Russians will just instruct the SAA to go around them when time comes while VKS would be blocking anything coming in

    This whole "observation post" thing was just poorly thought out PR stunt






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