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    Syrian War: News #19

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:42 am

    I don't ever remember saying on this forum the shooting down of a civilian airliner is right.

    Your government said it was good... they gave the ship commander and weapons officer medals for doing an excellent job above and beyond the call of duty...

    However, that incident was a hot post mess of confusion and guys not sharing information with each other.

    It was an incident the commander of the ship created himself.

    The AEGIS cruiser is an information processing centre... if any vessel in the region had a complete picture of air, sea surface and undersea, it was them...

    The Soviets themselves destroyed one or two civilian airliners on accident.

    By mistake, not by accident... that was the Ukrainians that shot down that Israeli airliner with their S-200 missile... and of course that Malaysian airliner they shot down with a BUK.

    The aircraft the Soviets shot down entered their airspace and did not respond to communications... after half a century of the US sending converted bombers on missions to penetrate Soviet airspace to test defences and trigger radar and intercept responses... not really the same thing as going to a foreign country, illegally entering its waters while firing upon its naval vessels and then shooting down passing airliners inside their own airspace.

    Unless you are trying to say we did that on purpose, you need to keep quiet if you have nothing productive to say other then.

    The way the guilty were treated, I would say while there is no evidence it was done on purpose, there is no remorse, and you certainly didn't act like what happened was wrong.

    I believe secretary of state George Bush snr said at the time.... "I don't care what the facts are... America is not to blame..."

    "US IS EVIL BLAH BLAH BLAH".

    You could use that as your signature...


    this dude deserves a month long ban

    I really don't like giving bans, and very much try to avoid doing so whenever I can.

    I certainly wont use a ban to censor someone... he is free to hold any opinion he likes, as is everyone here.

    The last one I gave was to Miketheterrible, which annoyed me to do.

    Generally I agree with him most of the time, but rules about respect are important... the job of mod is not easy and I do not take it lightly... it is like bringing up kids... you need to know when to use a slap, and when to use a word... there is no manual and every kid responds differently... hit some kids and you lose them forever... others all they need is that short sharp shock to realise we aren't buddies and I have a responsibility to keep things working properly.

    This is a forum for discussion. Not fight club.

    Personally I think it is better to talk about things than try to pretend alternative views don't exist. I don't expect to change his view and I rather doubt he expects to change mine, but it is important... in fact it is healthy to hear from differing points of view...
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:26 am

    Unless you are trying to say we did that on purpose, you need to keep quiet if you have nothing productive to say other then.

    [/quote]

    I’m really beginning to question your age and by extension, your maturity. I sure as hell don’t believe for one minute your stories of conflict presence - as I’ve made perfectly clear already.

    That aside, this is the second time within a week where you’ve asked a member here to cease posting (in a not so nice a way) because you didn’t like the counter argument presented. You are aware that this is a forum....where people post, irrespective of what the poster has written, right? Telling people “you need to keep quiet” etc is rather bizarre to be frank.[/quote]

    That member brought up something completely irrelevant to what was said.

    I mentioned how Turkey was in the wrong for shooting down a SU-24.

    They then bring up something that was done on accident, that has ZERO to do with the subject matter. It's just baiting for an argument so excuse me if I call them out for that habit.

    Explain to me then what a pre-planned downing of a military aircraft has to do with the accidental downing of a civilian aircraft. Was it wrong? yes, never once claimed it was right.

    But that incident has nothing to do with what I said, I have asked them time and time again if they cannot stick to the subject matter do not respond to me.
    ultimatewarrior
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:10 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:@mods

    this dude deserves a month long ban

    This isn't MP.net nor F-16.net.

    Trolling and baiting is against forum rules.
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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:45 pm

    [quote="SeigSoloyvov"][quote="GarryB"]

    I don't ever remember saying on this forum the shooting down of a civilian airliner is right.

    However, that incident was a hot post mess of confusion and guys not sharing information with each other..

    Sure.. It was a "confusion".. perhaps that was the reason ,the Pentagon gave medals
    oh honors and celebrated like Heroes the captains ,who shoot down the Iranian civilians airliner legally flying in a civilian route towards another country with 300 hundred civilians women and children on board..

    In case you didn't knew All civilian airliners flight with ID transponsder that identify themselves as civilians airliners ,for Traffic control in other countries to guide them..
    The americans knew it was a civilian airliner ,they also show as a huge target on radar
    and still shoot it down.. So imagine how will Americans react if IRANs sends warships near Florida and shoot down a civilian Airliner of American airlines , flying over over Florida airspace?

    Is obvious that Honesty is not one of your virtues.. neither understand the difference between Right and wrong.. And ABout Russia shoot down of the Korean airliner.. that happened during the cold war ,that US was very hostile with Russia ,.and provoking them ,as US did to IRAN , invading their airspace.. and was after half an hour .. they korean plane enter in Russia territory and was heading to fly over Military bases.. Russia had no way to know if the planes had bombs or nukes , and it represented a major huge national security issue ,since was the plane flying over Russia military bases.. and after half of hour of no response from the plane.. they took the decision to shoot it down.. So the Russians did everything they could.. and the plane did not responded for a long time ,and did not changed course and so the decision was made. .Even Putin recently about the need of authorizing the shoot down of civilian airliners ,that refuse to follow orders and try to fly over Russia military bases.. So there is a HUGE difference between US shoot down of the Iranian civilian airliner and Russia shoot down of the korean one.. One did not got any warning ,and was legally flying over Iranian airspace.. while the Russian incident it was a rogue plane.. that refuses its pilots to follow orders and continue flying an hour INSIDE RUSSIA airspace ,rejecting to listen any orders to stop.. Russia had no way to know if there was terrorist inside who captured the plane or if the plane had nukes or bombs inside aimed
    at destroying Russian bases.. by using the civilian plane as a weapon.. which could happen as WTC 911 have shown..

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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:50 am

    Looks like the new Korsar UCAVs played a key role beating terrorists out of Hamamiyat.

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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:51 am

    SAA spraying bullets as usual. Highly unprofessional.

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    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:32 am

    ultimatewarrior wrote:SAA spraying bullets as usual. Highly unprofessional.



    Not really.. what they do , is exactly what the Russian military or any pro army will do..
    Is called supressing fire..  The goal of it is to keep terrorist heads down ,seeking cover..
    If you do it right.. any hidden and unseen terrorist will think ,they have been spotted.
    And someone is firing in their direction.. and when you are fired bullets ,you don't know how close or far at times of their position are the bullets.. So this aims to keep terrorist hiding and not advance..   If you only  stand there idle doing nothing , that will encourage terrorist to attack them , aim with a kornet missile at their positions..  but if they fire above their heads.
    close to their positions they will be more hesitant to continue the fight.. if they not properly armed to counter them..

    WHen the fight is Urban ,and terrorist inside a house.. you fire non stop at the windows..
    so the terrorist have no opportunity to launch grenades at you or shoot back with a rifle.
    Is a very  classic but effective technique that can save your life , if scare the terrorist to not fight back.. Most times it works..  So they are not "WAsting bullets" at all.. It was also done
    by Donetsk rebels too.. by motorola and others , you fire blindly at enemy positions ,to keep their heads low and not allow them to look.. or counter.  Supressing or covering fire is how is called. Is blind shooting but at the positions of the enemy.. You will not advance in a direction that bullets are being fired towards you.. even if they are off target ,they can quickly correct the aiming. Is very classic and can be very effective.

    The most important thing is ,that terrorist in the other side.. if it is done right ,will have no way to know if the missing of the bullets is just supressing fake fire or if someone is aiming at them ,but they missed. And thats what will keep them with their heads low just in case.
    What they do know however is that they have been spotted ,and that will impact their desicion to advance or retreat. If they are a small group ,is more likely will retreat.. since small group only chance to fight is if they take by surprise the other side..but in that video ,looks like the terrorist were spotted from a long distance.
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    Post  nomadski on Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:41 am

    The point was NOT to make noise , so they don't run into foxholes , then hit with quiet UCAV overhead instead of with SU25 . But if they don't have UCAV , then Vann7 has a point . You may not need fire actual bullets . This is expensive . As I think warrior said . You can play sound of firing by loudspeaker . Sniper put a few round nearby to cause wizz and smoke . Keep heads down ! Or alternate between sound only and real fire . Confuse them . Let them stick head out !
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:07 pm

    Beating up people who hate Russia.

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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:19 am

    nomadski wrote:The point was NOT to make noise , so they don't run into foxholes , then hit with quiet UCAV overhead instead of with SU25 . But if they don't have UCAV , then Vann7 has a point . You may not need fire actual bullets . This is expensive . As I think warrior said . You can play sound of firing by loudspeaker . Sniper put a few round nearby to cause wizz and smoke . Keep heads down ! Or alternate between sound only and real fire . Confuse them . Let them stick head out !

    The Korsar UCAV is really making an impact. They were recently deployed to Hama battle.





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    Post  nomadski on Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:12 am

    @ultimatewarrior

    The Korsar is very good . Reusable . The only point is to make it quiet and less visible in flight . The existing korsar can have electric motor and battery , so near target , say one or two kilometer away . Petrol engine switched off . Electric motor takes over . Also for attack in daylight , the underside can have small LED light to provide countershading camouflage . Not spotted against skylights.
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    Post  ATLASCUB on Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:10 am

    Things are heating up yet the big fireworks does not come.

    Every player afraid to make a wrong move. Laughing

    The impasse shall fall.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:18 pm

    @Nomadski, it is much better to fit more powerful and better quality cameras and fly at higher altitudes where engines are not hear and UAVs can barely be seen even without camouflage...
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    Post  nomadski on Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:50 pm

    Small modern electric motor and battery is cheaper than expensive optics . I can hear prop engines at great distances . Good pilot can see large fighter jet at 20 km distance  with naked eye . Binoculars are  available to all .Camo is cheap and can be add on to existing equipment .  ( Wavelenght of LED , same as background ) .High altitude may cause problems for glide munitions accuracy or short range rocket reach for horizontal attack . Low altitude necessary sometimes for small target or in low cloud ( frequent problem with laser guided )  or ground dust or smoke conditions .

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/262814/

    An interview with a typical mother is as good a place to begin as any. She described what happens when her family hears an American drone hovering somewhere overhead. "Because of the terror, we shut our eyes, hide under our scarves, put our hands over our ears," she told her interviewer. Asked why, she said, "Why would we not be scared?"

    https://theaviationist.com/2014/07/25/predator-over-iraq/


    As some analysts noticed the aircraft appears to be armed with Hellfire missiles, even if the first images are a bit too blurry to say it with certainty. Indeed, the Predator seems to carry at least one AGM-114 on the left hand underwing pylon (the other one is barely visible and could be empty) but it could only be the effect of distortion due to the distance and the drone could also be flying with empty pylons (quite rare, because “pure” reconnaissance missions are usually flown without any pylon and a drone with both empty pylons would mainly point to the event that both missiles have already been fired).
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:01 am

    Dust and smoke are issues close to the ground so unless we are talking about unmanned ground vehicles the solution is SWIR sensors as well as MMW radar sensors.

    I can hear prop engines at great distances

    Is that when the aircraft with them is cruising or coasting at high altitude or is it when those props are running at full power during takeoff and climbing...

    High altitude may cause problems for glide munitions accuracy or short range rocket reach for horizontal attack . Low altitude necessary sometimes for small target or in low cloud ( frequent problem with laser guided ) or ground dust or smoke conditions .

    High altitude gives more energy to penetrating bombs and more room to glide... launching rockets at low altitude will give away the presence of the UAV straight away... releasing small guided bombs from 12km altitude and they wont know what hit them.

    Even missiles like the command guided Shturm and Ataka could be used to extended ranges with the right equipment... launched vertically downwards from 12km altitude they would likely accelerate rapidly to 600 to 700m/s and with a pull up could probably engage targets at 8-10km horizontal range quite easily and very cheaply.

    SWIR eliminates problems with water vapour for thermal imagers (ie rain and cloud are no issue... SWIR can also see through glass and water so they don't need expensive Sapphire lenses to operate) Combined with an onboard MMW radar with near photographic views of the ground day or night... combined with IR and digital TV the view should be amazing.

    Another factor is that a very high altitude aircraft means the view does not constantly move and change angle like a lower altitude view... which can be more useful for planning and observation.

    An interview with a typical mother is as good a place to begin as any. She described what happens when her family hears an American drone hovering somewhere overhead. "Because of the terror, we shut our eyes, hide under our scarves, put our hands over our ears," she told her interviewer. Asked why, she said, "Why would we not be scared?"

    So it serves a psychological purpose of frightening your enemy and their family, but the purpose of war is not to make your enemy scared, it is to kill them and high altitude quiet murderbots last longer... it also means if there is a malfunction they can generally glide away from enemy territory to somewhere where they can be recovered or destroyed...

    As some analysts noticed the aircraft appears to be armed with Hellfire missiles, even if the first images are a bit too blurry to say it with certainty. Indeed, the Predator seems to carry at least one AGM-114 on the left hand underwing pylon (the other one is barely visible and could be empty) but it could only be the effect of distortion due to the distance and the drone could also be flying with empty pylons (quite rare, because “pure” reconnaissance missions are usually flown without any pylon and a drone with both empty pylons would mainly point to the event that both missiles have already been fired).

    Hellfire missiles are not ideal because they are not cheap, but they are the only suitable US anti armour missile for the job... TOW is wire guided so a launch from 4km up means the wire would run out and break just fired straight down before it hit the ground.

    The Soviets had command guided missiles from the AT-2 Swatter, though the AT-6 Shturm, and AT-9 Ataka, and now the Krisanthema... for use against vehicles and rooms in buildings or MG positions or snipers, or indeed enemy artillery a Sturm missile with a HE frag warhead is plenty to get the job done... it is accurate and has plenty of range potential and does not drag a wire.

    Kornet-EM would also be excellent for the job too, and so would SOSNA-R.

    I rather think the best option if it enters use would be the guided systems for unguided rockets, particularly 122mm and 80mm unguided rockets... their flight path from a high altitude launch could be calculated rather accurately and there is a variety of warheads for a variety of targets for both rocket systems and their accuracy means they will likely hit their target even when fired from a lofted ballistic trajectory...

    A lower altitude UCAV would be interesting... you could put armour on it, and make it electric, and fit it with even cheaper weapons like cannon, machine guns, and grenade launchers as well as rockets for direct fire attacks... in fact you could fit it with disposable rocket launchers like the RPG-22 or RPO which could be reloaded near the front line by landing there... Hand grenade launchers and even an array of 40mm grenade launchers all angled down could be used to saturate the enemy area with fragments...
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    Post  nomadski on Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:28 pm

    How many expensive sensors and radar are needed, to target a single insurgent, hiding in a hole? Putting camera and transmitter on UCAV, expensive enough! You get close, you can see through cloud, dust and smoke. I can hear single engine prop aircraft easily at 2 to 3 km. Cruising. Guided munitions expensive.  Free fall better, cheaper.  No need for unreliable GPS. Use dive bombing method. Cheap electric motor, will make attack silent. They won't know what hit them! Cheaper unguided rockets  ( horizontal attack) can be used to hit rooms in buildings. By accurate ranging. Light weight. Cheap. At last agree totally. With accurately ranged unguided against soft skin or infantry in open country. Armour may not succeed. Force of hit will offset smal plane. Better use camo. Countershaded.


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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:12 am

    How many expensive sensors and radar are needed, to target a single insurgent, hiding in a hole?

    That is like saying a sniper doesn't need binoculars or a good rifle scope... if you don't equip the UAV with good sensors how are you supposed to find targets to hit... the UAV actually finds the targets for you so the better the sensors you fit the better able it will be to do that.

    UAVs are reusable, it is not like you will need one for each target...

    Putting camera and transmitter on UCAV, expensive enough!

    Well that is the point... if you go super cheap you will end up with crap that needs to fly very low to do its job which means they will get shot down all the time because insurgents are looking for drones.

    Spending more money getting a better quality product makes sense.

    You get close, you can see through cloud, dust and smoke. I can hear single engine prop aircraft easily at 2 to 3 km.

    At 10km altitude that is 3-4 times that distance and at that altitude it can throttle back and just glide for a it so it would be very hard to hear... even if it loses a kilometre of altitude or two it would still be safe.

    Cruising. Guided munitions expensive. Free fall better, cheaper. No need for unreliable GPS.

    GLONASS guidance should be relatively cheap, and optical guidance is getting much much cheaper... like the cameras in cellphones, they are tiny and can be a few dollars each....

    Command guided is the cheapest guidance of all, as I mentioned the Shturm and Ataka missiles are from the 1980s and are still very popular because they are accurate and cheap... and supersonic, so you wont hear them coming.

    Cheap electric motor, will make attack silent. They won't know what hit them! Cheaper unguided rockets ( horizontal attack) can be used to hit rooms in buildings. By accurate ranging. Light weight. Cheap.

    It makes sense to have a variety of platforms... low flying models need to be protected and well armed but also need to be totally disposable and cheap... moving things are easy to see even with camouflage... the human eye is drawn to movement, so even if it is totally silent it will be spotted. Protection can make it rather hard to shoot down... but the point is that if the enemy are trying to shoot that UAV down then they will be firing their weapons... which means higher flying drones can detect muzzle flashes and hot barrels and missile and rocket launch sites... information that can be used immediately for attacks by lower flying UAVs, but also information going to HQ to mark enemy positions.
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:40 pm

    I remember a formulae, that explained weapon effectiveness in terms of relative costs. This was the total cost of production and use, including probability of intercept versus weapons taken out or destroyed. Your solution could be valid against high value targets at longer ranges, needing more accurate targeting. A break even point for a UCAV or any other weapon would be one where costs, probability of intercept equals unity for both opposing platforms. That is both platforms are destroyed. Like klashnikov system. But I am sure designers will take into account all this, from theory or experience. You have good points.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:23 pm

    The new drones are really taking a heavy toll on people who hate Russia.

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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:44 am

    ultimatewarrior wrote:Bombing people who hate Russia






    They do not hate Russia.

    For them the only reason they fight Russia is because the Russians are fighting them.


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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:53 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:That SU-24 was in Turkish Airspace for 7 seconds total time, the pilots realized they accidentally flew in and quickly corrected it.

    The F-16 that shot it down was in the air and waiting along the SU-24's flight path before it entered the Airspace.

    The Turks had a legal right to gun the aircraft down since it DID enter their airspace that is true to a very limited point. But you can argue they also didn't the Aircraft did not threaten them and posed zero threat to them. It wasn't trying to perform an attack run or anything, you could make the case it was Murder and that would be fair.

    International law does require you to issue a verbal warning, the Turks did not do this they just fired hell by the time the missile HIT the SU-24 it was out of Turkish airspace.

    But at the same time shooting down an aircraft that entered your airspace purely by accident for no even 10 seconds is a straight up finger and you can argue it was a provocation and IMO isn't a defensible act.

    Was an act of aggression. not even in the height of the Cold war did the Soviets gun down planes that where in their airspace for seven seconds.



    From what I read the Turks did warn verbally the jet's crew before shooting it down.

    And there is nothing wrong whatsoever with a Turkish Air Force fighter jet flying in Turkish air space. What is even your point here? It was the Russians who violated Turkish air space, not the Turks violating Russian air space.


    A military jet can cover a significant distance in "only" seven seconds.


    I think a professional soldier like you (?) should be aware of these things.


    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:59 am

    The Jet was in the AIR waiting for the SU-24, it was a pre-planned attack.

    There was no verbal warning, the Turks never provided any proof to this claim.

    The facts are the SU-24 entered the Airspace for 7 seconds on accident, By the time the F-16 fired and shoot it down it was in Syrian Airspace.

    The Flightpath of the SU-24 showed it passed over a very narrow part of Turkey that sticks into Syria.

    The SU-24 did not fly deep into their territory.

    The facts are the shootdown was illegal. The SU-24 wasn't given time to leave, it was attacked outside of Turkish airspace and the pilots weren't warned.

    The facts are the facts. This is well known if the SU-24 did anything wrong I'd say so. but to be honest it didn't.

    Ero shot it down to send a message to Putin



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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:30 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The Jet was in the AIR waiting for the SU-24, it was a pre-planned attack.

    There was no verbal warning, the Turks never provided any proof to this claim.

    The facts are the SU-24 entered the Airspace for 7 seconds on accident, By the time the F-16 fired and shoot it down it was in Syrian Airspace.

    The Flightpath of the SU-24 showed it passed over a very narrow part of Turkey that sticks into Syria.

    The SU-24 did not fly deep into their territory.

    The facts are the shootdown was illegal. The SU-24 wasn't given time to leave, it was attacked outside of Turkish airspace and the pilots weren't warned.

    The facts are the facts. This is well known if the SU-24 did anything wrong I'd say so. but to be honest it didn't.

    Ero shot it down to send a message to Putin



    https://i.servimg.com/u/f61/19/83/61/04/sukhoi10.png

    I have to agree with Seig on this one.

    In addition the Su-24 was targeting terrorist that did not care too much about sirian or turkish border, and to which Turkey offered often safe haven.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:46 am

    If it was to send a message to Putin, then it's hilarious to note the guy who shot it down fled Turkey because he was part of the Gulan attempted coup in Turkey. I remember how he apparently fled via helicopter to Cyprus (Greek part).
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:50 am

    miketheterrible wrote:If it was to send a message to Putin, then it's hilarious to note the guy who shot it down fled Turkey because he was part of the Gulan attempted coup in Turkey.  I remember how he apparently fled via helicopter to Cyprus (Greek part).

    Despite this claim, Gulan himself mastermind it, I haven't seen a SHREAD of proof behind it.

    Ero himself conducted the coup to seize power and I'll give it to the guy he did a great job at it.

    He had lists pre-printed so when the coup "failed" he was arresting ANYONE who EVER questioned him. The lists they had could not be prepared in a day there is tons of evidence proving Ero used a false coup to achieve his goals.

    Gulan loyalists were part of the coup but they were just used.

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    Syrian War: News #19 - Page 26 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #19

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