Russia didn't go after Israel after the IL downing what makes anyone think they'll go after them now? So to suggest narratives of naughty Iran somehow getting slapped by daddy Russia (as the cause of Russia's inaction) is just a delusion of delusionals. Russia decided long ago it wasn't willing to pay the political price of engaging Israel and slapping it in the face and has chosen to play the game like a snake. It will continue to do so.... I disagree with the strategy to some extent but I ain't making decisions in the Kremlin.
Iran will continue to do what is in their national interest ......that is, to seal off Israel as much as its ability allows with unfriendly states - to preoccupy it on her borders... a sort of divide and conquer. Denied Syria and denied Lebanon... juggling with the U.S in Iraq.... after all, without the U.S the Israeli state as currently configured ceases to exist. No diplomatic cover, no free aid and favorable to say the least trade - laundry list of crimes - small and surrounded by hostile nearby states, not to mention borderless with palestinians with a score to settle.... easy target to bully by bigger states in the region without having to fire a single shot. Hec Yugoslavia is always a nice example of a proxy state surrounded by hyenas losing its empire protection (USSR). Israel would be easy pickings.... who's gonna pick up the mantle?
No god damn thing Russians can do about that....other than to serve the M.E in a platter to the U.S by backstabbing Iran, which will only exacerbate its own demise. Thus while games can be played strategic realities override illusions and delusions of having puppet-only partners.
As for "Kurds" seeing the light.... if those terms are anything to go by.... they're still in dark alleys, eyes shut and sewn. Autonomous region with independent diplomacy, flag, army controlled "locally" but yet "part" of the Syrian army etc.... unified Syria in name only - big fat joke. Seems like something the CIA would write.... perhaps they did - after all, what is the SDF if not their baby.
Well, unless Russia strikes Israel directly or flies it's jets in Lebanese airspace, I have no idea what you morons expect. Not like S-300 or 400 are effective at shooting down jets hundreds of KM away, flying low and hidden by mountains of Lebanon. But let's say Russia does strike Israeli jets? What then? Then Israel will attempt to hit Russian bases which let's be honest, they can with a saturated attack. And what would Russia gain?
Maybe you guys also fail to ask why hasn't Syria done anything? I mean, where is Syrian MiG-29's to launch attacks or go at Israel in Lebanon? It isn't an easy task and Lebanon is entirely at fault too.
Yes, Ukraine is lost. Boo fucking hoo. It's a shithole now and their massive army cannot even do much against miners and farmer militia (DNR/LNR). Now Russia doesn't have to give away tens of billions to keep an "ally" afloat. Not an ally to begin with since it folded so easily eh?
Russia is fine. That part is obvious. In all it's missile strikes, only minimum damage was done and Israel continues to act tough. Yeah, I don't agree with the Il-20 outcome but let's be real here, It wouldn't be in Russia's interest to bomb the shit out of Israel. At least not yet.
Five members of the Syrian Democratic Forces were killed and two American soldiers were wounded after targeting a military convoy of the International Coalition with a car bomb on the road of Hasaka - Al-Rigga near point 47 northwest of the town of Shaddadi
EDIT
OIR Spokesperson Verified account @OIRSpox 50m50 minutes ago
We can confirm a combined U.S. and Syrian partner force convoy was involved in an apparent VBIED attack today in Syria. There were no U.S. casualties. We will continue to review the situation and provide updates as appropriate.
Last edited by JohninMK on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Russia could have gone after one of Israel's military airports and junk a substantial part of their air fleet ala what the U.S does in Syria - if slapping Israel and making a statement was the goal. I don't think you can dream of a better situation (excuse) than the IL downing for such a response. Can you actually imagine what the U.S would have done to Syria facing a similar dilemma? Please....none of that calculated weak shit they've been doing to save face.
Saturation attack of cruise missiles via Sea, plus some gifts via Air using Iran as a launching point for some Tu-160 or T-22Ms....easy pickings.
What's Israel going to do? Double down and go after Russian bases in Syria? How long will that last until they're down to their nukes only? Or are we to assume Israel has an invincible air force and navy that replenishes itself in seconds? Can infinitely stay on the air and sea without needing to touch land etc?..... Lol targets in Israel that have aggressive potential towards Russia can be counted on hand and the operational readiness of their air fleet makes their numbers shrink substantially. So No. Using nukes = suicide.
Chances are they'll take it in the ass and accept the slap in the face and avoid an escalation they can't win. The U.S would cry to high heavens etc...UN drama, EU lapdogs signing the tune... but behind the scenes they would tell Israel to take it in the butt.....cause none of them are willing to go to war with Russia over that. But they've calculated Putin well, they're not stupid. Plenty of subject matter on how the current leadership of Russia rolls, from Georgia, to Ukraine, to Syria.
Syria is doing very well. Priority of business is to allow the U.S to exit the arena by its own accord. No need to provide any excuses for staying back - god knows how many forces are trying to get Trump to flip (infinite). Once the U.S is out and large chunks of the NE of Syria is well secured and in their hands then they can start calculating the arena on how to respond to Israel properly with or WITHOUT Russia's backing.
Last edited by ATLASCUB on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:30 pm; edited 6 times in total
If that video confirmed by Russia military.. that lost a pantsir..
It will show a major hole in Russian tactics , not using electronic warfare to jam those TV cameras inside missiles. If Russia deployed strong jamming of short range lest say 1km range , then it will block those TV signals... of those missiles , neither is using decoys to confuse missiles.. there are many things Russia could do .. to blind those TV communications without interrupting their own aiir defenses operations.
What happened here is that after Il-20 event Russia put both Israel and Iran in the corner. Israel was told to lay off the airstrikes and Iran was told to lay off Israel and stick with Syria.
Israel huffed and puffed but did nothing. Iran kept quiet but also kept doing what he was told not to.
After a while Israel asked Russia why is Iran getting a free pass. Russia took a look and saw that Iran really is getting a free pass despite being naughty.
And that's how we got here.
Israel did tell SAA to stay out of it (definitely on Russia's insistence) but they didn't. Hence Pantsir roasted (and another improper use of AA assets by SAA as always...)
THanks to our zionist papadragon terrorist friend for remembering us ,how Israel should be allowed to freely bomb Syria ,and any nation ,just because they say is for their "Security" . And that Syria have no right for nation security . But you are wrong...
And What got us here.. ?
Is that after Russia Airforce with Syria army help ,defeated your lovely Israel backed and armed terrorist fighters with the goal to over run all Syria with Alqaeda and ISIS ,and disband the Syrian state . Then now the zionist jews are using their own military and airforce to continue the aggression ,in hope to get US and NATO to follow their example , and tie the hands of Trump for leaving Syria..
You need to remember to you ,dear Netanyahu talmudic lover , that IRAN and Russia , are only in Syria ,consequence of Israel and NATO illegal proxy war on Syria.. So Israel and US started this.. ok ? It was not IRAN.. or RUssia who started this war.. it was Israel,US,UK who started the syrian conflict with the world major criminal aggression ever done to a sovereign nation , of smuggling hundred of thousand of Jihadist fighters from all over the world.. into Syria through its borders..
there is plenty of Evidence that the Syrian war that began in 2011 was manufactured from abroad year(s) earlier and Israel was the mastermind of it.. this is according to France former foreign minister Roland Dumas.. who was personally invited to help in the recruiting of terrorist..
SO what we have ? is the major collective Criminal offense/Genocide of an alliance of nations against one Sovereign country Syria ,since Nazis were defeated in world war 2.
Even Putin directly exposed Israel collaboration with ISIS... by saying how he helped Netanyahu recover the dead bodies of Israel special forces in Syria ..in a zone controlled by ISIS .. what they were doing there?
So the myth that Israel did remained neutral in the entire war is a myth.. they had Special forces providing assistancea and weapons and hospitals too to different terrorist groups ,ISIS and ALqaeda to defeat the Syrian army. and is only WHEN Damascus began to be fully liberated ,that israel began a major bombing campaign against Syria..
If we lived in a moral world of justice and of respect of international laws. and world that Terrorism against civilians is not welcome..and the same rules used to get in prison Nazis collaborators , then people like you and the nations you praise and support will be on an international trial its leaders and collaborators like the NAZIS were.. and either in Prison or Executed in Public..
This means that if next week ,United states empire cease to exist..and collapse completely and disband. And a new world order ,a new system created ,with Russia and China being a major leaders of it.. Then the protection Terrorist States like Israel ,Saudi Arabia ,UK and Turkey will end after US system collapse. and so they will need to be held accounted for mass crimes against millions and declared enemies of Humanity.. not only for their war crimes against Syria but for all they have been doing in the middle east and the entire world.
So remove your head from your ASS ,for once ,get this fact right. .@netanyahu_lover/Papa Dragon.. Israel in secret , declared war against Syria (not IRAN) but Syria , many many years before the Syrian "arab spring" began .
So this is why israel bomb Syria military air defenses and bases.. that NO IRANIAN are. .is a direct slow war against Syria now and an open Proxy war against Russia too. Jews don't want the war in Syria to ever end.. and so they will invent any claim , to justify their aggression to the Syrian state.
The decision to destroy Syria was actually taken all the way back to 2003 (take down 7 countries in 5 years )by the zionist generals in the Pentagon in support of Israel. After the war in IRAQ..which was started based on a lie of weapons of mass destruction .The plans was to move to Syria after securing control of IRAQ. but they later change their minds and instead used Islamic extremist they recruited to do the job.. to capture Syria and remove any influence of Russia in the zone.
The goal was an attack on Russia main economy business , by creating a pipeline from Saudi arabia to Europe through Syria , since Turkey geography was an obstacle to do it more directly..and after Syria ,take down IRAN , with similar terrorist armies tactics used in Syria.. and with the capture of Syria and IRAN , break Russia energy business completely from Europe. and break Russia influence in middle east ,by removing those governments friendly to Russia..and as bonus NATO bases with access to Russia caspian sea..
So this is what got us here.. the creation of the illegal state of Israel and the policies of US and Israel , to break Russia , and any competition to Israel in middle east..
The zionist forces in the west and in Israel ,are the mastermind of this conflicts. is what got us here.. And most people in this forum are glad ,that russia stopped this plans of Israel and US . Now the difference between now and years ago ,is that the war is no longer proxy.. this is the major difference .. that israel don't hide behind terrorist to attack Syria. Iran have nothing to do with the Syrian war.. is actually Russia the real target of Israel but because they can target Russia openly and directly , since Russia can do a lot of harm to israel , too strong to fight them directly. then they target Syria and IRAN.
So should Russia leave its Syrian close allies ? and allow Israel destroy Syria in peace with impunity ? Im sure Entities like you ,will be happy about that.. to see Syria as a nation cease to exist , so that Israel can take its lands.. but Russia destroyed those plans.. now it need to face the rage of Israel ,that is refusing to see the end of the Syrian conflict ,and refusing to leave Syria and lose without a major consolation price. . Zionist entities , like Papadragon , don't want peace anywhere in the middle east.. because violence can be used by NATO to justify their presence there and justify the partition of their countries for "peace" and "security". lets take a look how the Zionist lobbies openly praise the genocide of millions.. with zionist controlled Terrorism. that they not even hide.. in their love..
"Thanks God for ISIS".. this is how zionist entities think..
Netanyahu is even on record saying prefer ISIS over ASSAD.. and their generals no even deny the help they provide to what they call "moderate rebels" . so is not IRAN their real goal in Syria. but Syria itself ,the destruction of it.. and ending Russia influence in middle east.. So that they can fully control the energy markets, the prices in the world ,destroying Russia economy and business with Europe.
Israel is simply trying to tie Trump hands , and provoke a bigger conflict.. between US and Russia . and so they bombing Syria to encourage NATO to follow their example. IRAN and hezbolah is the excuse they use to justify their aggression.
Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:23 pm; edited 10 times in total
ATLASCUB wrote:Russia could have gone after one of Israel's military airports and junk a substantial part of their air fleet ala what the U.S does in Syria - if slapping Israel and making a statement was the goal. I don't think you can dream of a better situation (excuse) than the IL downing for such a response. Can you actually imagine what the U.S would have done to Syria facing a similar dilemma? Please....none of that calculated weak shit they've been doing to save face.
Saturation attack of cruise missiles via Sea, plus some gifts via Air using Iran as a launching point for some Tu-160 or T-22Ms....easy pickings.
What's Israel going to do? Double down and go after Russian bases in Syria? How long will that last until they're down to their nukes only? Or are we to assume Israel has an invincible air force and navy that replenishes itself in seconds? Can infinitely stay on the air and sea without needing to touch land etc?..... Lol targets in Israel that have aggressive potential towards Russia can be counted on hand and the operational readiness of their air fleet makes their numbers shrink substantially. So No. Using nukes = suicide.
Chances are they'll take it in the ass and accept the slap in the face and avoid an escalation they can't win. The U.S would cry to high heavens etc...UN drama, EU lapdogs signing the tune... but behind the scenes they would tell Israel to take it in the butt.....cause none of them are willing to go to war with Russia over that. But they've calculated Putin well, they're not stupid. Plenty of subject matter on how the current leadership of Russia rolls, from Georgia, to Ukraine, to Syria.
Syria is doing very well. Priority of business is to allow the U.S to exit the arena by its own accord. No need to provide any excuses for staying back - god knows how many forces are trying to get Trump to flip (infinite). Once the U.S is out and large chunks of the NE of Syria is well secured and in their hands then they can start calculating the arena on how to respond to Israel properly with or WITHOUT Russia's backing.
Except it isn't Russian forces getting hit. Nor was it Israel that shot down the Il-20. Russia was also at fault cause they can see Israeli jets flying around or launching from their bases. It was Syrian AD that shot down the Il-20.
In these cases, it's Syria being hit. Syria DOES have the ability to hit tye Israeli AB as well, but they don't. And yes, Israel would escalate things cause Natenyahoo is just that, Yahoo. He is crazy like Muzzie style.
Regular wrote:
ATLASCUB wrote:I thought Pansirs had twin guns? Not a single fired bulet while under a saturation attack?
Guns overheated. It brought down more than 50 zhyd missiles anyway - so cost wise it was worth it.
37 missiles intercepted out of ~50. 2 Pantsir so far as we know. One sitting idle with nothing running (possibly spent) and one that was actively in use firing at multiple targets judging how the missiles were flying. Hit by 2 missiles so it was a saturated attack on one unit.
Bibi is not as stupid as you paint him to be. He's not the head of Israel because he's a stupid maniac. He's a cunning, calculating, manipulative, and loud mouth politician. He sells his madman image well.... but like everyone else, he understands and fears power. Even in the extremely super slim chance he were to be the caricature rabid dog you paint him to be - what to do with a rabid dog? Bullet to the head.
Pretty sure Russia's MOD went out of its way to declare full responsibility for the loss of life of Russians on Israel. It didn't mince words, nor did it say it was an accident. Clearly stated in briefings of the incident. What the commander in chief of Russia (Putin) and his advisers chose to do with such information and the strategies/response they chose to deal with the dilemma is another thing altogether. So don't try to muddy the waters.... cheap cop out.
The policy of appeasement towards Israel, the "deals" and the free-for-all in the skies of Syria had as a direct consequence the IL incident. It didn't surprise me that this happened, didn't come as a shock, nor to anyone critical of this strategy. The proponents of the strategy only prayed that such an incident didn't took place but they were well aware of the danger of such a development because such a strategy leaves that open. This policy boxed Russia from the very start. The alternative strategy is one of confrontation and clearly laid rules that had a political + economical cost from the very start of Russia's involvement in the Syrian civil war. Russia wasn't then (2015) and is not willing now to pay that cost - and obviously paying it earlier (2015) saves you the trouble and boondoggle of paying it later in a worse-off situation - at least when you do it early from the start, you have the element of surprise + the power of the bluff (dare not or else). The Israeli's know this, so do the Americans. It didn't took them long to understand the borders per say of Russia's strategy - at first (2015) they were disoriented and in sort of a shock trying to understand Russia's intentions but they figured the limits quick and once you figure the limits you start to maneuver and modify your strategy around those limits - which they did.
So Russia's current strategy pays up in other ways - its servicemen dead as in the case of the IL incident. Who are directly responsible for that? Russia's leadership and strategists. Both strategies have their cost.
What's intellectually dishonest, is to act naive and act like there were or are no alternatives, or yell to the impossibility of implementing alternatives.
Last edited by ATLASCUB on Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
ATLASCUB wrote:Bibi is not as stupid as you paint him to be. He's not the head of Israel because he's a stupid maniac. He's a cunning, calculating, manipulative, and loud mouth politician. He sells his madman image well.... but like everyone else, he understands and fears power. Even in the extremely super slim chance he were to be the caricature rabid dog you paint him to be - what to do with a rabid dog? Bullet to the head.
Pretty sure Russia's MOD went out of its way to declare full responsibility for the loss of life of Russians on Israel. It didn't mince words, nor did it say it was an accident. Clearly stated in briefings of the incident. What the commander in chief of Russia (Putin) and his advisers chose to do with such information and the strategies/response they chose to deal with the dilemma is another thing altogether. So don't try to muddy the waters.... cheap cop out.
The policy of appeasement towards Israel, the "deals" and the free-for-all in the skies of Syria had as a direct consequence the IL incident. It didn't surprise me that this happened, didn't come as a shock, nor to anyone critical of this strategy. The proponents of the strategy only prayed that such an incident didn't took place but they were well aware of the danger of such a development because such a strategy leaves that open. This policy boxed Russia from the very start. The alternative strategy is one of confrontation and clearly laid rules that had a political + economical cost from the very start of Russia's involvement in the Syrian civil war. Russia wasn't then and is not willing now to pay that cost - and obviously paying it earlier saves you the trouble and boondoggle of paying it later in a worse-off situation - at least when you do it early from the start, you have the element of surprise + the power of the bluff (or are we?). The Israeli's know this, so do the Americans. It didn't took them long to understand the borders per say of Russia's strategy - at first they were disoriented and in sort of a shock trying to understand Russia's intentions but they figured the limits quick and once you figure the limits you start to maneuver and modify your strategy around those limits - which they did.
So Russia's current strategy pays up in other ways - its servicemen dead as in the case of the IL incident. Who are directly responsible for that? Russia's leadership and strategists. Both strategies have their cost.
What's intellectually dishonest, is to act naive and act like there were or are no alternatives, or yell to the impossibility of implementing such alternatives.
Nope.
Russia's base in Syria would be liquidated rather quickly in a saturated attack if Israel is hit directly by Russia. Bibi wont back down, he has uncle sham backing him 110% thanks to the brown nosers in the Senate.
ATLASCUB wrote:Bibi is not as stupid as you paint him to be. He's not the head of Israel because he's a stupid maniac. He's a cunning, calculating, manipulative, and loud mouth politician. He sells his madman image well.... but like everyone else, he understands and fears power. Even in the extremely super slim chance he were to be the caricature rabid dog you paint him to be - what to do with a rabid dog? Bullet to the head.
Pretty sure Russia's MOD went out of its way to declare full responsibility for the loss of life of Russians on Israel. It didn't mince words, nor did it say it was an accident. Clearly stated in briefings of the incident. What the commander in chief of Russia (Putin) and his advisers chose to do with such information and the strategies/response they chose to deal with the dilemma is another thing altogether. So don't try to muddy the waters.... cheap cop out.
The policy of appeasement towards Israel, the "deals" and the free-for-all in the skies of Syria had as a direct consequence the IL incident. It didn't surprise me that this happened, didn't come as a shock, nor to anyone critical of this strategy. The proponents of the strategy only prayed that such an incident didn't took place but they were well aware of the danger of such a development because such a strategy leaves that open. This policy boxed Russia from the very start. The alternative strategy is one of confrontation and clearly laid rules that had a political + economical cost from the very start of Russia's involvement in the Syrian civil war. Russia wasn't then and is not willing now to pay that cost - and obviously paying it earlier saves you the trouble and boondoggle of paying it later in a worse-off situation - at least when you do it early from the start, you have the element of surprise + the power of the bluff (or are we?). The Israeli's know this, so do the Americans. It didn't took them long to understand the borders per say of Russia's strategy - at first they were disoriented and in sort of a shock trying to understand Russia's intentions but they figured the limits quick and once you figure the limits you start to maneuver and modify your strategy around those limits - which they did.
So Russia's current strategy pays up in other ways - its servicemen dead as in the case of the IL incident. Who are directly responsible for that? Russia's leadership and strategists. Both strategies have their cost.
What's intellectually dishonest, is to act naive and act like there were or are no alternatives, or yell to the impossibility of implementing such alternatives.
Nope.
Russia's base in Syria would be liquidated rather quickly in a saturated attack if Israel is hit directly by Russia. Bibi wont back down, he has uncle sham backing him 110% thanks to the brown nosers in the Senate.
Senators don't declare war - they bark. None in the Pentagon will dare suggest to go to war with Russia to protect Israel from what would be a disarmament attack by Russia. This WW3 madman lunacy is only a cop out that you often find in proponents of inaction or as a cop out to support the strategy in place.
Even in the event that Bibi tried to go after Russia's bases in Syria - the cost of doing so should no doubt be - in effect - the complete destruction of the Israeli air force and the sinking of all of their major surface combatant ships - Russia is more than capable of achieving that with relative ease. Israel is outnumbered and outgunned - vastly. And Russia doesn't need Syria's bases to achieve that. Nukes are out of the question. So given the reality, what will Israel chose? I doubt they'll chose having their military crippled, and taking away one of their main tools of terror just to show off Russia - the second strongest military superpower in the world. No. They'll take it the ass if Russia is resolute in their response.
But you're clinging to your assumption, and you use that assumption to make another assumption without considering the alternative.
Last edited by ATLASCUB on Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
ATLASCUB wrote:Bibi is not as stupid as you paint him to be. He's not the head of Israel because he's a stupid maniac. He's a cunning, calculating, manipulative, and loud mouth politician. He sells his madman image well.... but like everyone else, he understands and fears power. Even in the extremely super slim chance he were to be the caricature rabid dog you paint him to be - what to do with a rabid dog? Bullet to the head.
Pretty sure Russia's MOD went out of its way to declare full responsibility for the loss of life of Russians on Israel. It didn't mince words, nor did it say it was an accident. Clearly stated in briefings of the incident. What the commander in chief of Russia (Putin) and his advisers chose to do with such information and the strategies/response they chose to deal with the dilemma is another thing altogether. So don't try to muddy the waters.... cheap cop out.
The policy of appeasement towards Israel, the "deals" and the free-for-all in the skies of Syria had as a direct consequence the IL incident. It didn't surprise me that this happened, didn't come as a shock, nor to anyone critical of this strategy. The proponents of the strategy only prayed that such an incident didn't took place but they were well aware of the danger of such a development because such a strategy leaves that open. This policy boxed Russia from the very start. The alternative strategy is one of confrontation and clearly laid rules that had a political + economical cost from the very start of Russia's involvement in the Syrian civil war. Russia wasn't then and is not willing now to pay that cost - and obviously paying it earlier saves you the trouble and boondoggle of paying it later in a worse-off situation - at least when you do it early from the start, you have the element of surprise + the power of the bluff (or are we?). The Israeli's know this, so do the Americans. It didn't took them long to understand the borders per say of Russia's strategy - at first they were disoriented and in sort of a shock trying to understand Russia's intentions but they figured the limits quick and once you figure the limits you start to maneuver and modify your strategy around those limits - which they did.
So Russia's current strategy pays up in other ways - its servicemen dead as in the case of the IL incident. Who are directly responsible for that? Russia's leadership and strategists. Both strategies have their cost.
What's intellectually dishonest, is to act naive and act like there were or are no alternatives, or yell to the impossibility of implementing such alternatives.
Nope.
Russia's base in Syria would be liquidated rather quickly in a saturated attack if Israel is hit directly by Russia. Bibi wont back down, he has uncle sham backing him 110% thanks to the brown nosers in the Senate.
Senators don't declare war. None in the Pentagon will dare suggest to go to war with Russia to protect Israel from what would be a disarmament attack by Russia. Even in the event that Bibi tried to go after Russia's bases in Syria - the cost would be in effect the complete destruction of its air force and the sinking of all of their major surface combatant ships - Russia is more than capable of achieving that with relative ease. Israel is outnumber and outgunned. And Russia doesn't need Syria's bases to achieve that.
But you're clinging to your assumption, and use that assumption to make another assumption without considering the alternative.
Currently, Bolton seems to be running the show. And we all know the results of America's so called pullout of Syria. At least so far.
You cling to your assumption that Russia is willing to sacrifice even more of its lives and that Bibi isn't a raging mad man, even though he took over as defence minister as well.
ATLASCUB wrote:Bibi is not as stupid as you paint him to be. He's not the head of Israel because he's a stupid maniac. He's a cunning, calculating, manipulative, and loud mouth politician. He sells his madman image well.... but like everyone else, he understands and fears power. Even in the extremely super slim chance he were to be the caricature rabid dog you paint him to be - what to do with a rabid dog? Bullet to the head.
Pretty sure Russia's MOD went out of its way to declare full responsibility for the loss of life of Russians on Israel. It didn't mince words, nor did it say it was an accident. Clearly stated in briefings of the incident. What the commander in chief of Russia (Putin) and his advisers chose to do with such information and the strategies/response they chose to deal with the dilemma is another thing altogether. So don't try to muddy the waters.... cheap cop out.
The policy of appeasement towards Israel, the "deals" and the free-for-all in the skies of Syria had as a direct consequence the IL incident. It didn't surprise me that this happened, didn't come as a shock, nor to anyone critical of this strategy. The proponents of the strategy only prayed that such an incident didn't took place but they were well aware of the danger of such a development because such a strategy leaves that open. This policy boxed Russia from the very start. The alternative strategy is one of confrontation and clearly laid rules that had a political + economical cost from the very start of Russia's involvement in the Syrian civil war. Russia wasn't then and is not willing now to pay that cost - and obviously paying it earlier saves you the trouble and boondoggle of paying it later in a worse-off situation - at least when you do it early from the start, you have the element of surprise + the power of the bluff (or are we?). The Israeli's know this, so do the Americans. It didn't took them long to understand the borders per say of Russia's strategy - at first they were disoriented and in sort of a shock trying to understand Russia's intentions but they figured the limits quick and once you figure the limits you start to maneuver and modify your strategy around those limits - which they did.
So Russia's current strategy pays up in other ways - its servicemen dead as in the case of the IL incident. Who are directly responsible for that? Russia's leadership and strategists. Both strategies have their cost.
What's intellectually dishonest, is to act naive and act like there were or are no alternatives, or yell to the impossibility of implementing such alternatives.
Nope.
Russia's base in Syria would be liquidated rather quickly in a saturated attack if Israel is hit directly by Russia. Bibi wont back down, he has uncle sham backing him 110% thanks to the brown nosers in the Senate.
Senators don't declare war. None in the Pentagon will dare suggest to go to war with Russia to protect Israel from what would be a disarmament attack by Russia. Even in the event that Bibi tried to go after Russia's bases in Syria - the cost would be in effect the complete destruction of its air force and the sinking of all of their major surface combatant ships - Russia is more than capable of achieving that with relative ease. Israel is outnumber and outgunned. And Russia doesn't need Syria's bases to achieve that.
But you're clinging to your assumption, and use that assumption to make another assumption without considering the alternative.
Currently, Bolton seems to be running the show. And we all know the results of America's so called pullout of Syria. At least so far.
You cling to your assumption that Russia is willing to sacrifice even more of its lives and that Bibi isn't a raging mad man, even though he took over as defence minister as well.
No - it has been my beef all along that the initial strategy from the start of Russia's intervention in 2015 was flawed and that the mess that developed was a direct result of that. The alternate strategy would thus have as one of its main goals preventing incidents and misunderstandings of this nature from happening - clear rules, clear pecking order. As such you would avoid having to deal with the problem of having to strike Israel or letting Israel get a free pass for the death of Russian servicemen in such a blatant provocation. If Israel wanted to test a Russian no-fly zone over Syria in 2015 - the issue would have been resolved then and there.
But lets be very clear about one thing, Russia in this civil war has lost hundreds, and hundreds of personal. This civil war is the direct result of Israel/the U.S/Saudi's/Turks going after a Russian ally. So lets not be naive here, Israel has much more Russian blood on their hands than just those that perished in the IL incident. As for the risk of putting further Russian lives in danger...... it's a risk. Everything has risks. The strategy that led to the IL incident had such incident as a risk.
As for Bibi being a raging mad man - you made the accusation. To me, he's a politician - loud mouth, like many others. I don't have to disprove he's a madman.
Last edited by ATLASCUB on Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
ATLASCUB wrote:Bibi is not as stupid as you paint him to be. He's not the head of Israel because he's a stupid maniac. He's a cunning, calculating, manipulative, and loud mouth politician. He sells his madman image well.... but like everyone else, he understands and fears power. Even in the extremely super slim chance he were to be the caricature rabid dog you paint him to be - what to do with a rabid dog? Bullet to the head.
Pretty sure Russia's MOD went out of its way to declare full responsibility for the loss of life of Russians on Israel. It didn't mince words, nor did it say it was an accident. Clearly stated in briefings of the incident. What the commander in chief of Russia (Putin) and his advisers chose to do with such information and the strategies/response they chose to deal with the dilemma is another thing altogether. So don't try to muddy the waters.... cheap cop out.
The policy of appeasement towards Israel, the "deals" and the free-for-all in the skies of Syria had as a direct consequence the IL incident. It didn't surprise me that this happened, didn't come as a shock, nor to anyone critical of this strategy. The proponents of the strategy only prayed that such an incident didn't took place but they were well aware of the danger of such a development because such a strategy leaves that open. This policy boxed Russia from the very start. The alternative strategy is one of confrontation and clearly laid rules that had a political + economical cost from the very start of Russia's involvement in the Syrian civil war. Russia wasn't then and is not willing now to pay that cost - and obviously paying it earlier saves you the trouble and boondoggle of paying it later in a worse-off situation - at least when you do it early from the start, you have the element of surprise + the power of the bluff (or are we?). The Israeli's know this, so do the Americans. It didn't took them long to understand the borders per say of Russia's strategy - at first they were disoriented and in sort of a shock trying to understand Russia's intentions but they figured the limits quick and once you figure the limits you start to maneuver and modify your strategy around those limits - which they did.
So Russia's current strategy pays up in other ways - its servicemen dead as in the case of the IL incident. Who are directly responsible for that? Russia's leadership and strategists. Both strategies have their cost.
What's intellectually dishonest, is to act naive and act like there were or are no alternatives, or yell to the impossibility of implementing such alternatives.
Nope.
Russia's base in Syria would be liquidated rather quickly in a saturated attack if Israel is hit directly by Russia. Bibi wont back down, he has uncle sham backing him 110% thanks to the brown nosers in the Senate.
Senators don't declare war. None in the Pentagon will dare suggest to go to war with Russia to protect Israel from what would be a disarmament attack by Russia. Even in the event that Bibi tried to go after Russia's bases in Syria - the cost would be in effect the complete destruction of its air force and the sinking of all of their major surface combatant ships - Russia is more than capable of achieving that with relative ease. Israel is outnumber and outgunned. And Russia doesn't need Syria's bases to achieve that.
But you're clinging to your assumption, and use that assumption to make another assumption without considering the alternative.
Currently, Bolton seems to be running the show. And we all know the results of America's so called pullout of Syria. At least so far.
You cling to your assumption that Russia is willing to sacrifice even more of its lives and that Bibi isn't a raging mad man, even though he took over as defence minister as well.
No - it has been my beef all along that the initial strategy from the start of Russia's intervention in 2015 was flawed and that the mess that developed was a direct result of that. The alternate strategy having as one of its main goals preventing incidents of this nature. As such you would avoid having to deal with the problem of having to strike Israel or letting Israel get a free pass for the death of Russian servicemen in such a blatant provocation. If Israel wanted to test a Russian no-fly zone over Syria in 2015 - the issue would have been resolved then and there.
But lets be very clear about one thing, Russia in this civil war has lost hundreds, and hundreds of personal. This civil war is the direct result of Israel/the U.S/Saudi's and Turks going after a Russian ally. So lets not be naive here, Israel has much more Russian blood on their hands than just those that perished in the IL incident. As for the risk of putting further Russian lives in danger...... it's a risk. Everything has risks. The strategy that led to the IL incident had such incident as a risk.
As for Bibi being a raging mad man - You made the accusation. To me, he's a politician, like many others. I don't have to disprove he's a madman.
Hundreds and Hundreds? No. It lost about 100, huge amount because of that Il-20. The other loss from the plane crashing with the music band doesn't count. The so called mercenaries of the hundreds that US claimed to have killed was obvious bullshit with anyone half a brain because a total of 12 names came out of it and some were Bulgarian. Oh wow.... The evidence was so damning....
Yeah, I guess if Russia placed a no fly zone. But guess what? Those planes aren't even flying in Syria territory for the most part. They are all launching their missiles from Lebanon. It was the one were the Il-20 was downed by Syria, were they decided to test the airspaace.
This attack was from Lebanon too.
I don't even know where you are going with any of this to be honest. Your being disingenuous that is for sure. And yes, Bibi is a mad man, he is constantly being investigated for corruption and protests happen in Israel pretty much weekly and people including even various courts are demanding him to step down, yet here he is. He is a dictator of Israel.
Every life lost as it relates to the war effort in Syria counts. Causation AND correlation. Kinda poor taste to downplay the numbers just for the sake of argumentation. But lets avoid arguing numbers and agree that the number is high - too high.
A no-fly zone protects Syrian airspace. A defense pact protects Syria from stand-off strikes from the obvious aggressor. The simple argumentation that any Israeli air strike or missile strike in Syria is a direct threat to the life of Russian servicemen is more than enough to justify a response and clearly set the rule in place to avoid the exploitation of the "loophole". But you know this. That Russia has purposefully diluted their statements to avoid confronting Israel and the U.S and paying the political and economic cost for that (by claiming only Russian servicemen in this area here, here and here) says more to the Russian strategy rather than what could be.
Last edited by ATLASCUB on Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Every life lost as it relates to the war effort in Syria counts. The number is high - too high. Causation and correlation.
A no-fly zone protects Syrian airspace. A defense pact protect Syria from stand-off strikes from the obvious target. The simple argumentation that any Israeli air strike or missile strike in Syria is a direct threat to the life of Russian servicemen is more than enough to justify a response and clearly set the rule in place to avoid the exploitation of the "loophole". But you know this.
he would be more than willing to sacrifice his people if he gets what he wants in the end. He is already doing that. Only Israeli's stupid enough not to fall for it are just being ignored anyway. The rest support his dictator policies.
Oh well, we are going in circles here. You disagree with me and I disagree with you. You wont convince me and I wont convince you. Instead of going in circles here, its better to agree in disagreement. Im fine with that.
I am more concerned about members here thinking that Israeli fighter jets Jam a AD system from very, very far away and not being able to read about what a saturated attack is and how many missiles were used.....
It looks like 2-3 missile were fired at the PGM but it could not hit it , why so ? Was Pantsir radar was jammed or something else ?
There are two pantsirs in the video. One is firing at targets on the right and left of the drone that made the video so we can assume there was like at least 4 or 5 drones. The second pantsir is not working and may be a fake one.
It looks like 2-3 missile were fired at the PGM but it could not hit it , why so ? Was Pantsir radar was jammed or something else ?
Who said, that those missiles were launched at this missile, which record we have. It was hit by two projectiles, but most probably there were more of them in the area in the same time and Pantsir could engage only 4 targets simultaneusly. Israel made massive attack exactly for that reason to attack with more projectiles, that the SAM could deal with.
It was the same with Iron Dome. It is effective against single rocket launched from Gaza or against small number of rockets. But when Palestinians launched large number of them, Iron Dome was helpless and many went through.
Pantsir and Buk did excellent job. But I still don't know, why Siryans didn't dig in and masked their Pantsirs, if they work stationary. They should also use more dummies and false targets.
They are all launching their missiles from Lebanon.
Syria &/ Russia could give S-300/-400s to Lebanese to defend their airspace & prevent the IAF coming anywhere close to it. Also, the VMF could send a few ships to cover approaches to Lebanon from the sea. I'm surprised it wasn't done by now.
It looks like 2-3 missile were fired at the PGM but it could not hit it , why so ? Was Pantsir radar was jammed or something else ?
The first system engaged 99% is not a Панцирь-С1 , Deliah missile is a very trivial target for a working Панцирь-С1 as repeatedly proved in all latest years, moreover at range of 3km or less the twin cannon would have been employed (even more times, in the very very unlikely instance that the first salvo would have not downed that very slow missile at the first attempt).
The Панцирь-С1 instead successfully engaged is ,exactly like the previous one: a motionless unmanned ,not working one.
As said previously those attempts are conducted on a regular basis by part of Israel against Syrian SAM systems (in particular after one of theirs attack become totally neutralized) naturally employing exclusively stand-off range weapons and often from ground launchers after an air attack, in order to caught, from time to time, a scarcely professional SAM crew out of service because, by then, the air raid alert would have stoped.
Those attacks obviously fail in the wide majority of instances, but when an unwisely unmanned Панцирь-С1 is caught Israeli authorities rush to show the trophy
Last edited by Mindstorm on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
You said there was an earlier attack . Then did Syria allegedly fire SSBM ? And then the usraelis carried out a bigger second attack ?
What came first ? The chicken or the egg ? But surely there can be none without the other . Cause and effect . And that is the point of retaliation with SSBM . To teach a lesson . So they learn . And usraelis try to confuse the issue . But we have to clarify . How ?
Once airstrikes carried out , then put on news or internet . Allow people to understand . Then strike back . And tell people . So people learn ; ............ chickens then eggs . Always allow distinct time , to allow people to connect the cause with effect . So usraelis can not claim self defence .
You said there was an earlier attack . Then did Syria allegedly fire SSBM ? And then the usraelis carried out a bigger second attack ?
What came first ? The chicken or the egg ? But surely there can be none without the other . Cause and effect . And that is the point of retaliation with SSBM . To teach a lesson . So they learn . And usraelis try to confuse the issue . But we have to clarify . How ?
Once airstrikes carried out , then put on news or internet . Allow people to understand . Then strike back . And tell people . So people learn ; ............ chickens then eggs . Always allow distinct time , to allow people to connect the cause with effect . So usraelis can not claim self defence .
As far as I can tell there was an attack in daylight early afternoon, the Syrians fired a couple of missiles back, then in the evening/night the Israelis attacked again.
Within Syria @WithinSyriaBlog 2h2 hours ago
Two new Syrian officers died from wounds they sustained as a result of the recent Israeli attack, Lt. Ahman Fllah and Lt. Osama al-Rif'ai. Total number is now four killed and more than six injured. Iranian forces didn't lose any personal.
The loses in the recent Israeli attack: SAA: six air defense, radar and communication systems were destroyed.Two officers killed, more than eight injured. Iranian Forces: around ten warehouses and offices. Food, personal weapons and uniforms were stored in some of them.
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