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    Why France is the land where the sun never setteles

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:11 am

    Money don't smell, & France is glad to sell things, esp. civilian planes, to any1 who is not a direct threat. Ayatollah Khomeini was sheltering in France before the 1979 revolution in Iran. https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/2892/why-was-khomeini-in-france-who-allowed-him-to-leave-and-why

    Iran defends its interests but isn't going to be an enemy if outside powers, incl. France, stop sticking their noses in the ME.
    France supported Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran (1980–1988). Saddam's airforce included dozens of Dassault Mirage F1s, Dassault-Breguet Super Étendards, and Aérospatiale Gazelles, among other weaponry. Iraqi military purchases from France totaled $5.5 Billion in 1985,..In fact it was Jacques Chirac who helped sell Saddam the two nuclear reactors that started Baghdad on the path to nuclear weapons capability. By 2000, France had become Iraq's largest supplier of military and dual-use equipment, according to a senior member of Congress who reportedly declined to be identified.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%E2%80%93Iran_relations#Islamic_Republic_of_Iran

    So, from the Iran's perspective, all those involved French politicians & arms dealers have Iranian blood on their hands. OTH, how many French were killed directly or indirectly by Iran since 1979?
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:53 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Money don't smell, & France is glad to sell things, esp. civilian planes, to any1 who is not a direct threat. Ayatollah Khomeini was sheltering in France before the 1979 revolution in Iran. https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/2892/why-was-khomeini-in-france-who-allowed-him-to-leave-and-why

    Iran defends its interests but isn't going to be an enemy if outside powers, incl. France, stop sticking their noses in the ME.
    France supported Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran (1980–1988). Saddam's airforce included dozens of Dassault Mirage F1s, Dassault-Breguet Super Étendards, and Aérospatiale Gazelles, among other weaponry. Iraqi military purchases from France totaled $5.5 Billion in 1985,..In fact it was Jacques Chirac who helped sell Saddam the two nuclear reactors that started Baghdad on the path to nuclear weapons capability. By 2000, France had become Iraq's largest supplier of military and dual-use equipment, according to a senior member of Congress who reportedly declined to be identified.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%E2%80%93Iran_relations#Islamic_Republic_of_Iran

    So, from the Iran's perspective, all those involved French politicians & arms dealers have Iranian blood on their hands. OTH, how many French were killed directly or indirectly by Iran since 1979?

    You obviously dont know what our party stands for.

    Islam is the enemy of France and Europe in general. Iran can switch back to Zoroastrism, before that happenes, Iran is an enemy of France. Polls suggest that the next president is Marine Le Pen. It also looks like we win the next EU election in 2019.

    Many things will change. The cut down on trade with islamic countries will be one of those things. There is no need for Iran to have airbus aircrafts. Iran is poor, their people have no money to travel.

    And when i see how much muslim tourists are hated in southern france, i doubt more would be welcome. Even rich gulf arabs are attacked her, the veils of their women ripped down on the streets.

    You cant fight a rat infestion when you keep feeding some with cheese.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:20 pm

    Islam is the enemy of France and Europe in general. Iran can switch back to Zoroastrism, before that happenes, Iran is an enemy of France. Polls suggest that the next president is Marine Le Pen. It also looks like we win the next EU election in 2019.
    Many things will change. The cut down on trade with islamic countries will be one of those things.
    It is quite possible that the rise of identity politics in the West has blinded most American and European policymakers, analysts and journalists, who now focus almost exclusively on Islam without paying much attention to political, economic and social drivers of tension and conflict in the Middle East. Their false diagnosis will only fuel false prescriptions. It is time for the West to stop its obsession with Islam and begin focusing on the political, institutional and geo-strategic factors behind sectarianism. http://www.atimes.com/divide-in-middle-east-is-about-nationalism-not-a-conflict-within-islam/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=d5e807cb48-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_12_26_01_07&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-d5e807cb48-31607385

    FYI,
    When considering the value of licences issued by EU countries, based on the most recent data available from the European Union (for 2016), France topped the table concerning exports to Saudi Arabia.
    https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/22/which-country-has-the-most-to-lose-in-suspending-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia

    Also, about 60 percent of sales went to the Middle East, with arms exports to the region worth 3.92 billion euros compared to 1.94 billion euros a year earlier.
    Sales to Saudi Arabia fell slightly, while deals to the UAE, Kuwait and Qatar soared.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-egypt-arms/despite-criticism-at-home-french-arms-sales-double-in-the-middle-east-idUKKBN1JT21W
    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/10/23/literally-standing-weapons-show-paris-frances-macron-says-questions-about-arms-sales
    https://tradingeconomics.com/france/weapons-sales

    Like Iran, Pakistan is an "Islamic Republic". Yet France has no problem selling it arms & services: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#Military_and_strategic_cooperation

    Indonesia, [the largest Muslim nation] has signed a letter of intent to buy Airbus A400M military aircraft, the office of French President Francois Hollande said on Wednesday. ..
    If completed, it would provide the troubled European military programme with a second export customer after Malaysia.
    [also Muslim.] https://www.reuters.com/article/airbus-indonesia-a400m-idUSL5N1H654L

    If Marine Le Pen wins, is she going to stop all that & leave thousands w/o work?
    There is no need for Iran to have airbus aircraft. Iran is poor, their people have no money to travel.
    What r u smoking?! They need to renew & expand their fleet to improve safety & meet the growing demand, & not only with planes from the Airbus:
    Traditionally, only a small number of wealthy Iranian tourists traveled abroad, and the majority of the trips were business departures, mostly to neighboring states in the Persian Gulf and the wider Middle East (1 million each year), Central Asia and Turkey (~1 million). Although this is likely to continue to characterize much Iranian travel abroad, since the change of regime in Iraq in 2003, Iranians from all walks of life have visited their western neighbor. In addition, a large proportion of Iranians traveling abroad are likely to be visiting family, especially in Europe, the US and Australia (~1 million) Up until early 2012, because the Iranian rial was overvalued, the Iranian government was subsidizing its travelers abroad (2010). In 2011, some 27 million travelers and businessmen passed the Iranian custom departments. Following the Iranian subsidy reform plan, airfares in Iran went up by 65% in 2012. In 2012, Iranians spent $18.5 billion on outward tourism. They spent $12 billion to purchase airplane tickets from foreign airliners between the years 2012-2015., or $4B per year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Iran#Infrastructure_and_the_economy
    As of June 2009, Iranian planes fly 45 international flight routes. Most of the fleet of Iranian airlines today consist of old Boeings and used or leased Airbus and regional jets like British Aerospace 146 and Fokker 100. Sanctions from the United States prevents Iran from purchasing most new western made aircraft to update its rapidly aging fleet. Iran's own poor safety regulations and mismanagement on behalf of the Iran civil aviation authorities has also been a known factor to blame. This has resulted in a series of ongoing disasters and incidents. Because of this, in the last 25 years there have been 17 plane crashes, and 1500 deaths (From 2000 to 2006, 11 Iranian plane crashes claimed about 700 lives).
    ..108 airliners have been added to the fleet of Iranian passenger planes during the last five years. As at July 2015, Iran had 251 commercial planes with 41,218 seats and 6 cargo planes, many (around 100) of which are not functional because of a lack of spare parts.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines_of_Iran
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air#Future_fleet_plans
    when i see how much muslim tourists are hated in southern france, i doubt more would be welcome. Even rich gulf arabs are attacked her, the veils of their women ripped down on the streets.
    If those tourists r not liked for their dress, then announce that u'll enforce the French dress code in France like they do in their countries. Pl. post a source about headscarfs being ripped off in a Muslim country. Even in Russia, where most Orthodox Christian women used to wear them, it was forbidden to dishonor them this way.
    https://www.worldnomads.com/travel-safety/middle-east/united-arab-emirates/what-can-i-wear-uae
    https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/saudi/saudi-crown-prince-says-abaya-not-necessary-1.2190993


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:06 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Islam is the enemy of France and Europe in general. Iran can switch back to Zoroastrism, before that happenes, Iran is an enemy of France. Polls suggest that the next president is Marine Le Pen. It also looks like we win the next EU election in 2019.
    Many things will change. The cut down on trade with islamic countries will be one of those things.
    It is quite possible that the rise of identity politics in the West has blinded most American and European policymakers, analysts and journalists, who now focus almost exclusively on Islam without paying much attention to political, economic and social drivers of tension and conflict in the Middle East. Their false diagnosis will only fuel false prescriptions. It is time for the West to stop its obsession with Islam and begin focusing on the political, institutional and geo-strategic factors behind sectarianism. http://www.atimes.com/divide-in-middle-east-is-about-nationalism-not-a-conflict-within-islam/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=d5e807cb48-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_12_26_01_07&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-d5e807cb48-31607385

    FYI,
    When considering the value of licences issued by EU countries, based on the most recent data available from the European Union (for 2016), France topped the table concerning exports to Saudi Arabia.
    https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/22/which-country-has-the-most-to-lose-in-suspending-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia

    Also, about 60 percent of sales went to the Middle East, with arms exports to the region worth 3.92 billion euros compared to 1.94 billion euros a year earlier.
    Sales to Saudi Arabia fell slightly, while deals to the UAE, Kuwait and Qatar soared.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-egypt-arms/despite-criticism-at-home-french-arms-sales-double-in-the-middle-east-idUKKBN1JT21W
    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/10/23/literally-standing-weapons-show-paris-frances-macron-says-questions-about-arms-sales
    https://tradingeconomics.com/france/weapons-sales

    Like Iran, Pakistan is an "Islamic Republic". Yet France has no problem selling it arms & services: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#Military_and_strategic_cooperation

    Indonesia, [the largest Muslim nation] has signed a letter of intent to buy Airbus A400M military aircraft, the office of French President Francois Hollande said on Wednesday. ..
    If completed, it would provide the troubled European military programme with a second export customer after Malaysia.
    [also Muslim.] https://www.reuters.com/article/airbus-indonesia-a400m-idUSL5N1H654L

    If Marine Le Pen wins, is she going to stop all that & leave thousands w/o work?
    There is no need for Iran to have airbus aircraft. Iran is poor, their people have no money to travel.
    What r u smoking?! They need to renew & expand their fleet to improve safety & meet the growing demand, & not only with planes from the Airbus:
    Traditionally, only a small number of wealthy Iranian tourists traveled abroad, and the majority of the trips were business departures, mostly to neighboring states in the Persian Gulf and the wider Middle East (1 million each year), Central Asia and Turkey (~1 million). Although this is likely to continue to characterize much Iranian travel abroad, since the change of regime in Iraq in 2003, Iranians from all walks of life have visited their western neighbor. In addition, a large proportion of Iranians traveling abroad are likely to be visiting family, especially in Europe, the US and Australia (~1 million) Up until early 2012, because the Iranian rial was overvalued, the Iranian government was subsidizing its travelers abroad (2010). In 2011, some 27 million travelers and businessmen passed the Iranian custom departments. Following the Iranian subsidy reform plan, airfares in Iran went up by 65% in 2012. In 2012, Iranians spent $18.5 billion on outward tourism. They spent $12 billion to purchase airplane tickets from foreign airliners between the years 2012-2015., or $4B per year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Iran#Infrastructure_and_the_economy
    As of June 2009, Iranian planes fly 45 international flight routes. Most of the fleet of Iranian airlines today consist of old Boeings and used or leased Airbus and regional jets like British Aerospace 146 and Fokker 100. Sanctions from the United States prevents Iran from purchasing most new western made aircraft to update its rapidly aging fleet. Iran's own poor safety regulations and mismanagement on behalf of the Iran civil aviation authorities has also been a known factor to blame. This has resulted in a series of ongoing disasters and incidents. Because of this, in the last 25 years there have been 17 plane crashes, and 1500 deaths (From 2000 to 2006, 11 Iranian plane crashes claimed about 700 lives).
    ..108 airliners have been added to the fleet of Iranian passenger planes during the last five years. As at July 2015, Iran had 251 commercial planes with 41,218 seats and 6 cargo planes, many (around 100) of which are not functional because of a lack of spare parts.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines_of_Iran
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air#Future_fleet_plans
    when i see how much muslim tourists are hated in southern france, i doubt more would be welcome. Even rich gulf arabs are attacked her, the veils of their women ripped down on the streets.
    If those tourists r not liked for their dress, then announce that u'll enforce the French dress code in France like they do in their countries. Pl. post a source about headscarfs being ripped off in a Muslim country. Even in Russia, where most Orthodox Christian women used to wear them, it was forbidden to dishonor them this way.
    https://www.worldnomads.com/travel-safety/middle-east/united-arab-emirates/what-can-i-wear-uae
    https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/saudi/saudi-crown-prince-says-abaya-not-necessary-1.2190993

    Muslims have o honor. You cant dishonor them. We have a law that bans veil and its enforced.

    In South France some people take law in their own hands and attack those creatures, rip their veils down. It amuses me how much you try to give those creatures rights.

    I was with my girl in Istanbul and they basicly "forced" us in the blue mosque. You have to wear a veil as women inside. My girl took it down inside. We dont bow for this pathetic system. Marine Le pen also did not wear a veil in a mosque.

    As for Iran and other shithole countries, if it would be for us we would end all contact. No trade, no exchange with those creatures.

    We talk about small amounts. What is 4 billion € for the french economy? peanuts.

    Your own link gives me right. Irans airlines are pathetic and they spend billions as tickets for foreign airlines.

    Its not in french interest to sell aircrafts to Iran. They can book Air France to travel if they want.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:07 pm

    Muslims have no honor. You cant dishonor them.
    Go on dehumanizing them. If not for the people like u, those non-Muslims who lost their heads in the ME would be alive today.

    http://www.zwemercenter.com/guide/honor-and-shame-9-keys/
    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/christians-don-t-have-christmas-monopoly-jesus-muslims-honor-him-ncna831501
    http://www.isna.net/muslim-code-of-honor/

    As for Iran and other shithole countries, if it would be for us we would end all contact. No trade, no exchange with those creatures. We talk about small amounts. What is 4 billion € for the french economy? peanuts.
    U have no idea what u r talking about! China shut itself out from the outside world & lost 4 wars to Europeans & Japan as a result; the Muslim world isn't small. India will overtake China in population & had 172M Muslims in 2011, & is expected have 311M Muslims in 2050, making it the country with the largest population of Muslims in the world.
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/21/by-2050-india-to-have-worlds-largest-populations-of-hindus-and-muslims/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India#Religious_demographics

    The current population of Iran is ~82M, or 2x less.
    http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/iran-population/

    About 3% of the PRC population is Islamic, or 42.4M
    http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/china-population/

    To compare, The current population of France is ~65M as of December 25, 2018. That's 2.6x less than the Indian & ~3.3x less than Indian & Chinese Muslims combined (214M). http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/france-population/

    Will u boycott India & China too? Don't tell me that trade with them is useless!
    https://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-relations/india-france/
    https://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-relations/india-france/defense-cooperation.html
    https://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-relations/india-france/indian-merchandise-exports-to-france.html
    https://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-relations/india-france/indo-french-chamber-of-commerce-and-industry.html
    https://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-relations/india-france/exports-to-france.html
    https://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-relations/india-france/indian-agro-exports-to-france.html
    https://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-relations/india-france/indian-it-exports-to-france.html
    https://tradingeconomics.com/france/exports-to-china
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-eu/china-france-agree-to-expand-trade-eu-raises-difficult-issues-idUSKBN1JL0B8

    In the long run, 4 billion $/€ per year=$100B/€ in 25 years & $200B/€ in 50 years.
    Your own link gives me right. Iran's airlines are pathetic and they spend billions as tickets for foreign airlines.
    Its not in french interest to sell aircraft to Iran. They can book Air France to travel if they want.
    $Bs more can be profited by selling new planes & with their post-market support than tickets; besides they would use other airlines too, not just Air France, as competition among manufacturers & airlines is ongoing. Boeing even set up completion of B-737MAXs in China; Russia & China now jointly developing a twin jet. As Boeing woos Chinese favor with its new Zhoushan facility, it’s also lobbying in the U.S. for just such a deal, arguing that China needs the airplanes to continue developing its economy while the U.S. needs the manufacturing jobs sustained by that demand.
    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-set-to-deliver-first-737-jet-from-completion-center-in-china/

    The same is true for Iran. If not for sanctions, Airbus & France could benefit from business with Iran.
    Even assuming that ur IQ is a lot higher compared with non-Europeans, as u insist, ur posts show that it's being superseded/negated by ur ignorance, inflated ego, & self-inflicted glorification & twisted ideological brainwashing with lies & half truths.
    Don't bother to respond, I'll stop wasting my time educating u & shall ignore all ur future posts. Thanks in advance, messier!
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:19 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:blubb

    As i said, you never cease to amuse me.

    Its good you bring up China. They do excellent work with their muslims. Putting hundredthousands of them in re educational camps and crushing down their obscure cult is something we can learn from.

    Modi in India follows a good way how to deal with those primitives.

    My opinion is, that i dont want sell any technology to our enemies that can be used against us.

    Just weeks ago it was made public that Iran planned a terror attack in France.

    Iran planned a bomb attack near Paris

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45722523

    And Iran already admitted this plan. They first said its a lie made from USA...later they rowed back and said there maybe a misunderstanding or maybe some of their agents did without authorisation.

    My parents teached me to be respectful to old people. Because of that i wont say what i think about your "teachings".
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:46 am

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:29 pm

    Looking forward to when Le Penn wins the vote because she is seriously not proAmerican and not anti Russian... it will be interesting to see how our little french friend changes his song and dance...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:44 pm

    My parents teached me to be respectful to old people.
    But he shows disrespect with dismissing words like shit, etc.
    He wants it both ways: sticking to his sick racist mindset & sticking his nose into non-European Venezuelans' crisis with a demand for Maduro to leave office. It's non of his or France's business: his "great country" lost Canada, Haiti, Louisiana, Algeria & was kicked out of Vietnam & my neighbor Mexico. It's been celebrated there with parades every year since, on the 5th of May.
    People like him will always find a way to explain themselves according to their own twisted logic that's not even worth the time to analyse, much less refute.
    Btw, Macron now is less popular in France than Maduro in Venezuela: mhttps://strana.ua/opinions/183207-protesty-v-venesuele-vyzyvajut-isteriki-protesty-vo-frantsii-ne-zamechejut.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:50 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:01 am

    Aristide wrote:Islam is the enemy of France and Europe in general. Iran can switch back to Zoroastrism, before that happenes, Iran is an enemy of France. Polls suggest that the next president is Marine Le Pen. It also looks like we win the next EU election in 2019.

    He claimed that France is the champion of freedom yet he is bragging about how his country must have zero religious tolerance.

    Actually some of the most notable examples of France's freedom is that they destroyed Báo Thiên pagoda and heavily damaged Một Cột pagoda.

    And why doesn't France abandon Catholics and reverts back to ancient paganism ?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:18 am

    Because France is Romanized & her Christians r happy to be under a Pope in Vatican. But they conveniently forgot that their Bible is against slavery, exploitation & stealing; also Christ taught to "love ur enemies" instead of treating them & colonized peoples as subhumans.
    Btw, the Romans/Italians got their art from the Greek colonists & the mainland Greece before their art appeared in France during the Renaissance.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:19 am

    It is ironic that the hard-core islam jihadists managed to infiltrate into the "free army" supported by the West (include France, of course), some of them even had meeting with top tier Western figures... meanwhile the "dictator" "authoritarian" regimes of Assad and Afghanistan DR are perfectly secular.

    At the end of the day it is the "dictator" Assad that mostly fights the terrorists and are bringing back peace to Syria.

    But then, it is the "free West" supported Pol Pot and condemned Vietnam for toppling the genocide regime in Cambodia...
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:40 am

    Wasn't it a french military unit that shot the nose of the Sphinx in Egypt because it was not a european nose...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:52 am

    It's not true: "Over the centuries the Great Sphinx has suffered severely from weathering...Man has been responsible for additional mutilation. In 1380 A.D. the Sphinx fell victim to the iconoclastic ardor of a fanatical Muslim ruler, who caused deplorable injuries to the head. Then the figure was used as a target for the guns of the Mamluks." In the book The Egyptian Pyramids: A Comprehensive Illustrated Reference (Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 1990), p.301, the author, J.P. Lepre, adds the fact that, in addition to the 14th century damage, "The face was further disfigured by the eighteenth century A.D. ruler of Egypt, the Marmalukes [Mamluks]."
    European visitors to Egypt prior to Napoleon's expedition had already discovered the vandalism to the Sphinx. In 1546, for example, when Dr. Pierre Belon explored Egypt, he visited "the great colossus." "The Sphinx," writes Leslie Greener in The Discovery Of Egypt (London : Cassell, 1966), p.38, by this time "no longer [had] the stamp of grace and beauty so admired by Abdel Latif in 1200." Greener goes on to say: "this exonerates the artillerymen of Napoleon Bonaparte, who have the popular reputation of having used the nose of the Sphinx as a target." The charge against Napoleon is particularly unjust because the French general brought with him a large group of "savants" to conduct the first scientific study of Egypt and its antiquities.
    Finally, an article by Ulrich Haarmann, "Regional Sentiment in Medieval Islamic Egypt," published in the University of London's Bulletin Of The School Of Oriental And African Studies (BSOAS), vol.43 (1980) p.55-66, states that according to Makrizi, Rashidi and other medieval Arab scholars, the face of the Sphinx was vandalized in 1378 A.D. by Mohammed Sa'im al-Dahr, a "fanatical sufi of the oldest and most highly respected sufi convent of Cairo." The nose and ears are mentioned specifically as having been damaged at this time. According to one account, Haarmann states, the residents in the neighborhood of the Sphinx were so upset by the destruction that they lynched him and buried him near the great monument he ruined.
    https://www.napoleon-series.org/faq/c_sphinx.html

    This is a good example of how a monotheistic religion can be twisted to justify the destruction of ancient monuments. Communists in Soviet Russia/USSR & PRC did the same with many churches & temples.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:32 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:This is a good example of how a monotheistic religion can be twisted to justify the destruction of ancient monuments. Communists in Soviet Russia/USSR & PRC did the same with many churches & temples.

    Communism is not a religion.

    Marxism - Lenninism is not a religion. It is a school of philosophical-economical-political thought.

    And you have to put the anti-Christianity movement at USSR in its context. The Church at that time was an ally and a representative of the old regimes and it is clear that it belonged to the blacklist of things should be targeted by the new government.

    The French Revolution also heavily repressed Catholic Church.

    But may be I am biased in this issue... my personal experience with the Catholic Church show me that it is the citadel of traitors who serve the French and U.S. imperialists and I have zero sympathy for these backstabbers.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:05 am

    Communism is not a religion. Marxism - Leninism is not a religion.
    It's an ideology, & Lenin, not to mention Stalin, was like a demigod for some & was being worshiped as such.
    The Church at that time was an ally and a representative of the old regimes and it is clear that it belonged to the blacklist of things should be targeted by the new government.
    True, but Stalin had to rehabilitate & cultivate the church during WWII to rally/console the people & help with the war effort. Church gave a lot of $ to the state to build tanks & planes.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:12 am

    It's an ideology, & Lenin, not to mention Stalin, was like a demigod for some & was being worshiped as such.

    That is a bit of an exaggeration... there was little worship... and likely quite a bit of fear in the case of Stalin...

    The reality is not much different from today... the British and Americans would be happy to abuse the position of the church in Russia if they thought they could get away with it and they often do. These people have less morals than the demons they tell us we should fear...

    True, but Stalin had to rehabilitate & cultivate the church during WWII to rally/console the people & help with the war effort. Church gave a lot of $ to the state to build tanks & planes.

    Stalin was scared... and rightly so... the Soviet Union had no English Channel to hide behind like the Brits did... there was no where to hide... they had to fight... lucky for him the Germans... like a certain frenchman we know felt superior and actually managed to treat the Soviets worse than Stalin treated them so there was not a huge threat of surrender or capitulation.... it simply wasn't a choice they were given.

    The Church was a good ally for him in this case, but most of the time the Church (all Churches that is) really only work towards their own ends... the catholic church fought democracy tooth and nail in Europe as a threat to its power... for a long time the only people who could read or write in a village were the priests... there was no way they were going to give up that sort of control easily.

    Funny that all the talk of Russian aggression and their uncivilised ways... they have been invaded by Sweden and France and Germany and indeed Poland and the UK and the US and Japan... yet each time they rejected such fine offers to educate them...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:02 am

    ..there was little worship..
    Lenin mausoleum was never empty of visitors. The Soviet propaganda created a myth that many believed. It was convenient enough & crucial to be perpetuated by Stalin & his successors until Chernenko, if not Andropov.
    The Russian Orthodox Church was tightly controlled by the Csars since Peter I; after 11/7/17, it was severely repressed, suppressed & then controlled by the CPSU & the state.
    Despite his pledges that the ROC would not interfere in secular affairs and would be loyal to the state, the arrests and executions of Orthodox clergy by the GPU and later the NKVD, destruction of Orthodox cathedrals, churches, icons, seminaries and so on were commonplace throughout the 1920s and 1930s. Before the beginning of the German-Soviet War, in the entire USSR, only 4 bishops remained who were not imprisoned or exiled. Likewise, of the 50,000 Russian Orthodox priests in 1918, only 500 remained by 1935.
    Only after the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 did Joseph Stalin finally start to scale back the anti-religious campaign, needing the moral support of the Church during the war. In the early hours of September 5, 1943, Stalin met with the three chief hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church and promised some concessions to religion in exchange for their loyalty and assistance. Among the concessions were the permission to open the Moscow Theological Seminary and Academy, the release of imprisoned clerics, the return of some church property, including the famous Troitse-Sergiyeva Lavra. In return, the Soviet government put the Church under the control of its secret services.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Sergius_of_Moscow

    On September 4, 1943, Metropolitan Alexius together with Metropolitan Sergius and Metropolitan Nicholas (Yarushevich) met with Joseph Stalin in the Kremlin where a historic decision was made regarding the fate of the Church in the state ruled by the militantly atheist Communist party. In the midst of the Second World War Stalin decided to allow the Russian Orthodox Church to legally function again after two decades of severe persecution. Restrictions on the Patriarchate of Moscow were relaxed somewhat and many churches throughout the Soviet Union were re-opened. Stalin tried to appeal to patriotic feelings of the Russian people especially the peasantry (backbone of the Red Army), many of whom grew up in still deeply religious families. When Patriarch Sergei died on May 15, 1944, Metropolitan Alexy took his place as Patriarchal locum tenens. In his first statement after assuming control of the Church, the Metropolitan assured Stalin of his "profound affection and gratitude" and vowed to "safeguard the Church against mistakes and false steps".
    On February 2, 1945, with Stalin's approval, Alexius I was elected Patriarch of Moscow and all of Russia and enthroned on February 4, 1945.
    In 1946 Alexius I presided over the controversial "re-unification" of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church with ROC seen by many as a takeover forced by the Stalinist government.
    Also in 1946, Patriarch Alexius called on all Catholics in the Soviet Union to reject all allegiance to the Pope: "Liberate yourself! You must break the Vatican chains, which throw you into the abyss of error, darkness and spiritual decay. Hurry, return to your true mother, the Russian Orthodox Church!"..
    Patriarch Alexius joined the World Peace Council, "a Soviet front organization,"[5] when it was founded in 1949. According to Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, both Patriarch Alexius and Metropolitan Nicholas "were highly valued by the KGB as agents of influence."
    After the death of Stalin on March 5, 1953, the Patriarch composed a personal statement of condolence to the USSR's Council of Ministers. It read, "His death is a heavy grief for our Fatherland and for all the people who inhabit it. The whole Russian Orthodox Church, which will never forget his benevolent attitude to Church needs, feels great sorrow at his death. The bright memory of him will live ineradicably in our hearts. Our Church proclaims eternal memory to him with a special feeling of abiding love."
    In 1955, Patriarch Alexius declared, "The Russian Orthodox Church supports the totally peaceful foreign policy of the Soviet Union, not because the Church lacks freedom, but because Soviet policy is just and corresponds to the Christian ideals which the Church preaches."
    After 1958, however, members of the Russian Orthodox Church also had to endure a new wave of persecution, mostly carried out on the orders of the new Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev.
    Despite this, Patriarch Alexius was permitted by the KGB to enroll the Russian Orthodox Church into the Christian Peace Conference in 1958 and the World Council of Churches in 1961.
    In 1965, Fathers Gleb Yakunin and Nikolai Eshilman wrote an open letter to Patriarch Alexius. According to Evgeny Barabanov, "They showed convincingly how a significant part of the governing episcopate, with voluntary silence or cunning connivance, had assisted the Atheists to close churches, monasteries, and religious schools, to liquidate religious communities, to establish the illegal practice of registering christenings, and had yielded to them control over the assignment and transfer of priests."
    The letter was published as samizdat ("self-published", i.e., underground press). In May 1966, Patriarch Alexius ordered both priests suspended from the ministry. Soviet dissident Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn sharply criticized the treatment of Fathers Gleb and Nikolai in his own open letter to Patriarch Alexius.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Alexy_I_of_Moscow

    Many high priests were undercover KGB agents even before they were enrolled in the theological academies.
    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/11/06/more-fallout-from-ukrainian-autocephaly-russians-learn-moscow-orthodox-hierarchs-were-kgb-officers/

    I heard a rumor that during WWII, his successor Patriarch Pimen was Stalin's cypher communication clerk. There, he could be recruited by the GPU/KGB. This period is omitted from his official biography:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Pimen_I_of_Moscow
    https://web.archive.org/web/20070929121957/http://ortho-rus.ru/cgi-bin/ps_file.cgi?2_643


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:54 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:14 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    ..there was little worship..
    Lenin mausoleum was never empty of visitors.

    It's how Eastern people pay respect to national heroes or great personalities.

    That's not propaganda or anything.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:46 pm

    So common for the west to tar an enemy with a brush dipped in their own paint...

    The only head of state I am familiar with who is part of a religion would be Queen Elizabeth the second of England... Head of the Church of England...

    People visit Buckingham Palace every day too... not to mention the tower of london etc etc...

    In the early hours of September 5, 1943, Stalin met with the three chief hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church and promised some concessions to religion in exchange for their loyalty and assistance. Among the concessions were the permission to open the Moscow Theological Seminary and Academy, the release of imprisoned clerics, the return of some church property, including the famous Troitse-Sergiyeva Lavra. In return, the Soviet government put the Church under the control of its secret services.

    And if Lenin or Stalin were their own religion why compromise? Is Stalin really the sort do you think that would share power with a rival entity?

    If what you said is true then he would have totally eliminated all other religions in Russia and been the only religion in town...

    In 1946 Alexius I presided over the controversial "re-unification" of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church with ROC seen by many as a takeover forced by the Stalinist government.
    Also in 1946, Patriarch Alexius called on all Catholics in the Soviet Union to reject all allegiance to the Pope: "Liberate yourself! You must break the Vatican chains, which throw you into the abyss of error, darkness and spiritual decay. Hurry, return to your true mother, the Russian Orthodox Church!"..

    There is a lot of shit about this on the internet, but from what I can work out things are screwed up anyway. It seems the centre of power is in Turkey where it is a tiny cult with very few followers. In Russia it is enormous and popular and the largest orthodox group numerically and financially the most powerful... they should be cutting ties with Turkey and ignoring other christian sects based on foreign countries and make the Russian orthodox church actually Russian so it answers to no one outside the country...

    But I really don't see how this supports your claim that Lenin and Stalin were religious figures... you examples seem to show abuse of religion and the normal and expected attempts by dictators to control power inside their borders including controlling religious groups... you say the KGB infiltrated them... like the CIA has not done exactly the same thing in the US...

    I heard a rumor that during WWII, his successor Patriarch Pimen was Stalin's cypher communication clerk. There, he could be recruited by the GPU/KGB. This period is omitted from his official biography:

    So what you are saying is that a leader in the ROC had a real job and helped the war effort... respect to the ROC... russia
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:06 pm

    And if Lenin or Stalin were their own religion why compromise?

    Their personality cults were supposed to replace religion, & to large extent they did. Ms believed in communist & socialist ideals. Under Stalin, they were also mixed with Russian nationalism- he not only allowed more religious freedom, but also returned officers' shoulder boards like in the Tsarist Army, hailed Tsar Ivan the Terrible, & had feature films produced set in medieval Rus about him & Alexander Nevsky.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:17 am

    ..a [future] leader in the ROC had a real job and helped the war effort... respect to the ROC..
    It can be speculated that he was recruited by the GPU/NKVD even before the war. But, if they officially declassify & admit it, it won't look good since it'll confirm that after the war, having a top secret clearance & skills, most probably he was still reporting to NKVD/KGB, & thus that the church was infiltrated by the secret police, effectively run by the Soviet atheistic state, while both pretended to be separate & independent from each other, as the Soviet Constitution stipulated.

    France is now paying for its colonialism by still being the regional gandarme in the former French Africa:
    https://thedefensepost.com/2019/01/31/france-air-operations-tarikent-mali-nassaoumbou-burkina-faso/


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:04 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:44 am

    So what you are suggesting is that Lincoln and Reagan and quite a few other US presidents were also religious leaders too because would you doubt for one second that there were no CIA or government moles inside all major religious groups in the US?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:20 pm

    No declared atheist can become a US President. Until Kennedy, a Catholic, they were all Christians of various denomionations, mostly Protestants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliations_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

    Religion was used in the propaganda Cold War against the atheist USSR, by Protestans & Catholics alike. The ROC Abroad serving the needs of Russian diaspora was independent & not part of the Moscow Patriarchy. Sending underground missionaries with their smuggled bibles & religious radio broadcasts to the USSR was part of the "ideological struggle" to weaken it. The same now is happening in China. There, Buddhist Tibetans, Muslim Uighurs, & Christains r being used to destabilize it from within.
    Now, the US Evangelicals (VP Pence is 1 of them) drive the ME policy.
    The Ku Klux Klan & Muslims r being infiltrated & watched, with the help of informants.


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    Post  Aristide on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Looking forward to when Le Penn wins the vote because she is seriously not proAmerican and not anti Russian... it will be interesting to see how our little french friend changes his song and dance...

    Im member in her youth organisation.

    What you dont umderstand is that we are pro France and so is she. We love only France. All others simply exist to serve us. Once you lose your value, you get pushed under the train.


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