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    T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

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    d_taddei2
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    T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:25 pm

    Hi all. With mention of SPG-9 replacement and Russia still using the T-12/MT-12 anti tank gun. What can we expect as a replacement and future roles?

    Although anti tank guns in west are largely phased out and look at as obsolete, Syria and other conflicts have shown us in a long drawn conflict that anti tank guns along with other older systems have proven useful. On anti tank guns they have proven useful at taking out stationary vehicles/armour as well as buildings bunkers etc, there cheap ammo, cheap systems, ease of use, and reliability is there key strengths and against armour still pack a punch and capable of taking out older vehicles and modern IFV. of course even within anti tank guns there are different types of systems, for instance the two mentioned above are different in that one is man portable and the other isnt.

    As for the replacement for SPG-9 with mention of it been floating around this last year. This has likely been due to the use of SPG-9 use in Syria that has prompted Russia to seek such a newer system. I would imagine the newer system will be lighter, more accurate/better sights and with a variety of new rounds including thermobaric, and with greater likely effective range out to 1.5-2km would be ideal. The current system seems alittle lacking in areas i mentioned on improvement. Of course they could also go down the route of having a recoiless rifle system like carl gustav which has seem wide spread use and proven to be useful, although i think its likely they will focus on a SPG-9 type system as Russia has a large variety of shoulder launched systems which largely cover the range of CG system. So if anyone has any information regarding the new SPG-9 replacement or and ideas please share.


    Now onto the T-12/MT-12. according to various sources they put the number of systems in Russian service from 350-500. Now when i was in the forces a many conversations were had on Russian equipment within the area i worked. And many had the opinion that anti tank system of this type was very largely outdated and had no real use since ATGW came along. Now a few people including an USA Major who was there at the time even questioned why Russia still used them as it was believed that they were now being used as artillery systems although there range wasnt great. And with Russia having 1,000's of D-30 in storage why didnt they replace them with D-30? as D-30 still offers limited anti armour capability. Some said it was down to cost to overhaul and train almost 500 systems wasn't worth the cost Vs benefit, and also that the T-12/MT-12 were largely used by conscripts they were unlikely to be deployed in any future conflict and also the training element, some also mentioned another reason that there was an abundance of 100mm ammo sitting around so it made sense to continue to use the system, and course the system also received some simple upgrades to make it a little better.

    What ever the real reason what we know was that there still in service in fairly large quantity and that the Sprut-B didnt replace it. In fact the small number of sprut-B in service was likely down to them testing the gun itself and in the role of replacing T-12/MT-12 and the decision wasnt favourable to produce it. And that also could have is reasons. Even though the sprut has much better firepower it lacked the versatility of the T-12/MT-12 in that it cant be used as artillery and that it was much more heavier, T-12 is 2,750kg Vs the sprut at 6,800kg at difference of 4,050kg which is quite a lot and this could impact on means of transport including underslung on a helicopter including ammo also the fact that it was likely much more expensive.

    So what could Russia replace the T-12/MT-12 with??????????????

    Well this largely comes down to what role they actually want and how much money they want to invest in a replacement, my guess is that they wont want to spend a fortune. So if they intend to replace it with a artillery system then they could easily replace it with D-30 (still having some anti armour ability), or 2S1, 2S3 if they want a self propelled function.So options for artillery could include:
    (towed artillery)
    D-30
    Msta-B
    Giantsint-B
    (self propelled artillery)
    2S1
    2S3
    (towed mortars)
    2S12 sani 120mm mortar
    Nona-K system
    (self propelled mortar)
    2S9 nona
    2S23 nona (BTR80)
    2S31 (Bmp-3)
    2S34 Hosta (2S1/MT-LB)

    If they want to have a role of Anti armour/anti tank then theres multiple options. Do they replace with ATGW systems or tanks? options include:
    (tank options)
    T-72B3
    2S25M sprut SDM-1
    (ATGW systems)
    Konkurs
    Metis M2
    Kornet
    (ATGW self propelled)
    Konkurs (BRDM-2)
    Shturm-S (MT-LB)
    Kornet -D
    various other vehicles mounted with Kornet/Konkurs

    And then they could choose something a bit different and replace the units with systems such as TOS-1 or BMPT. Or we may find that when Typhoon series and zauralets-D gets an artillery system which believe they are planning on they use these units.

    or they could design a new system combining a variety of roles. Which i think would be better and wouldnt cost much. Although i would suggest that some are towed and some self propelled on various platforms. My personal opinion is that if they produced a system similar to the Nona-K. a system that can fire mortars, artillery shells, but with the addition of anti armour rounds and ATGW system, while keeping the system light.

    i think they have two options. one they could use the 2A70 100mm gun from the BMP-3 which already has anti armour and ATGW systems but would need mortar and artillery rounds designed for it. And obviously mount it a suitable towed mount. Although i see this as an option i think my second option (below) would be better.

    My second option would based around a 120mm calibre system. For numerous being that the 120mm calibre looks likely to be around for a long time, and on future systems. In addition to this they already have a similar system the Nona-K which can fire mortar and artillery rounds. So they could use this as a base model design. Also they already have a variety of rounds for 120mm mortars and 122mm artillery systems such as guided ammo. So this has an advantage over having to redesign a 100mm rounds of the same type (guided) for option one. So all they really need to do really is design a 120mm anti armour rounds, thermobaric rounds, etc. and this shouldnt be too hard they could use similar design as either the 2a70 100mm (bmp-3) gun or 125mm current tank rounds and either make bigger or reduce in size. As for the ATGW they could still use the Bastion round and use the same method they used on using Bastion missiles on the T-62 115mm gun using guiding rings or use a reduced size svir/refleks, or design a new missile although i think the Bastion option with guiding rings would be fine, to save on cost. I also believe they could make the system lighter than MT-12 probably around 1000kg lighter you would looking at having something similar in weight to nona-k (1,200kg). And if they design it on a mount which can then either be put onto a towed mount, or a vehicle chassis such as typhoon, MT-LB, BMP, BMD, BTR, T-55/62/72 etc this would not only give it a universal use for various units but also an attractive option for export to other countries for example if you can have it mounted in a simple turret design it could replace the turret of T-55 improving firepower of existing T-55 for poorer nations and the system would cover various roles Mortar, artillery, Anti armour/anti tank including ATGW system all on the one platform i actually think it would see fairly good export potential success, and the fact you could mount it on various vehicles would also expand export potential. The towed mount could be useful as being air dropped in hard to access areas, and yet again this would allow from one weapon system a multi role system, in hard to reach areas there might not be loads of room to have multiple systems also it means your only delivering one system by air and not multiple systems, you would have to deliver various types of ammo for the system based on what you faced. The system could also have a remote control system allowing the gunner to be some distance away from the system if the situation called for it.

    so whats peoples views/opinions etc.

    On another similar note which was briefly mentioned between me and GarryB on another thread of having a towed mount which could mount anything a 14.5mm gun, 30mm gun, 57mm gun, AGS, automatic 82mm mortar, strelets, SA-13, multi ATGW (kornet D type system), new rocket pods system, Hermes missile, ZAK-57 Derivatsiya-PVO  57mm AD system and maybe a pantsir type system or Sosna-R system  or a combination of mentioned weapons for the use of hard to reach places or being mounted on various vehicles including export customers vehicles. Although i see these as two separate systems but similar in design and think both would have great export potential.

    yet again any thoughts, ideas, opinions would be great. thanks for reading.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:35 pm



    2A45. 125mm gun. Same as in the T-72/-80/-90. Was supposed to be the successor for the MT-12 at the end of the 80´s.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:59 pm










    This was supposed to be replacement. However its atm outdated concept. For AT combat they have ATGMs, for fire support there is number of options.

    Photos by me Cool
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:29 pm

    Hole wrote:

    2A45. 125mm gun. Same as in the T-72/-80/-90. Was supposed to be the successor for the MT-12 at the end of the 80´s.
    Yes but as I said my post it didn't in the end for the reasons I mentioned I presume
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:








    This was supposed to be replacement. However its atm outdated concept. For AT combat they have ATGMs, for fire support there is number of options.

    Photos by me Cool
    Nice pics and thank you. But I said it didn't replace it and the MT-12 still in service
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:24 pm

    It didn´t replace it because of the 90´s.
    If the russian army decides to replace the MT-12 with another anti-tank gun the will either use a 125mm towed gun or a version of the 2S25M1.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:01 pm

    Hole wrote:It didn´t replace it because of the 90´s.
    If the russian army decides to replace the MT-12 with another anti-tank gun the will either use a 125mm towed gun or a version of the 2S25M1.

    I personally think towed gun is out of the question today. Most probably they will just fill the niche with self propelled fire support variant of Sprut.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:23 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Nice pics and thank you. But I said it didn't replace it and the MT-12 still in service

    Its still in service however its used as fire support. Noone expects it anymore to be used aganist tanks. When in numbers some light fire support vehicle reaches service it will be gone.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:15 am

    Russia used guns and ATGM´s side by side for more than 40 (50?) years. It´s a question of philosopy. Like the ZU-23 or the new 2S38 in air defence.

    A towed gun is much cheaper then a self-propelled gun or ATGM system. For some roles (static defence or defence of rear services) a towed gun would be enough.

    And the MT-12 and the 2A45 can fire guided missiles.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:09 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Nice pics and thank you. But I said it didn't replace it and the MT-12 still in service

    Its still in service however its used as fire support. Noone expects it anymore to be used aganist tanks. When in numbers some light fire support vehicle reaches service it will be gone.
    Yes this is what said and that mostly used in artillery role with direct fire role secondary. A bmp-3 or 2s25m is available but no movement on anything. 

    As for towed systems a weapon of this type and weight I don't see the need now. But as I mentioned a system which can cover anti armour/ATGW /mortar /artillery I see it as usefull. In mountainous areas or hard to reach areas a self propelled vehicles may not be able to access. Also having a light system opens many transport options underslung from a helicopter or also as I mentioned if designed in a way to allow it to be mounted on a variety of vehicles this would give SP options. Towed artillery is still widely used. Although as I mentioned anti tank guns not used for the initial role intended as syria has shown they were useful and cheap at taking out stationary vehicles buildings and bunkers and more cost effective in this type of conflict hence the talks of new spg 9. Which is a different class of anti armour gun to MT-12. Heavy anti tank guns have been taken over by ATGW systems and Russia still has the use of a fairly cheap systems such as konkurs and metis m1. AT-3 sagger proved useful also in syria due to range but mostly down to cost. When I was in services I read an Intel report on it stating that the price of the missile they expected it to cost 100's of dollars not beyond that their estimate was around $800 per missile standard warhead. The report was usa source not a uk report. That's likely the reasons why many countries still use it and it's in large numbers. I can't remember the figure for the actual system but I know it wasn't expensive 1,000's (not 10,000's) the report claimed it was likely the cheapest ATGW system on the world market. However did slate it on speed and accuracy but further in the report stated due to the cheap cost that hands on training with live missiles could be done cheaply and operators could be able to practice a lot improving there skills so I'd imagine this may help with accuracy. When I was in training our Company was given 8 LAW 94 so that meant only 8 people got to experience live fire. And when in the battalion we got 8-12 per year. I know an ex warrant officer who had never had the chance in 22yrs service to live fire a LAW 94. We were told that the system costs around £3000-4000 once fired the tubes were sent away for deactivation to be used as training aids. We all got the chance to fire the spotting rounds. They had a training version where you could fire five spotting rounds and then switch to HEAT which wasn't HEAT round but a small cartridge which created a large bang. It wasn't the easiest thing to hold and fire lacking grip and the trigger being a plastic lever type sitting horizontal that you pulled down it was spring loaded to flip back up after each round but have to admit after 2-3 rounds you were on target. It was a weird looking round. The whole unit is sealed, so you cant reload spotting rounds etc. And once you switch to HEAT you can't switch back to spotting rifle. The site was basic with a square clear piece of plastic as the optic and cross hair. Very bulky but light. Also another weird thing was if you were lucky enough get to fire the live HEAT round you had to wear a respirator/gas mask because of the gases/debris and pressure of it being fired. A few friends who fired it said it was like your face being sucked through a vacuum cleaner for 1 second. and the gases and debris was harmful for the lungs. But suppose in wartime you just put up with it. I never got the chance to fire live HEAT just spotting rounds. Sorry a bit off topic
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  Militarov on Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:14 pm

    Hole wrote:Russia used guns and ATGM´s side by side for more than 40 (50?) years. It´s a question of philosopy. Like the ZU-23 or the new 2S38 in air defence.

    A towed gun is much cheaper then a self-propelled gun or ATGM system. For some roles (static defence or defence of rear services) a towed gun would be enough.

    And the MT-12 and the 2A45 can fire guided missiles.

    Actually towed gun is alot more expencive to buy than an ATGM system. Stays question of ammunition that is obvously on the expencive side with an ATGMs.

    MT-12s were deemed as obsolete by Yugoslavian National Army 30 years ago, imagine today. We retired ours more than a decade ago. Main issue is lack of tactical mobility and size.

    If i had to choose place where not to be in combat it would be MT-12 crew.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:11 pm

    SPG-9 was originally an anti armour weapon, but it seems what they want is a direct fire (ie more accurate than a mortar or indirect artillery) weapon with a decent punch.

    First thought was actually a towed version of the 100mm rifled gun from the BMP-3, but a recoilless rifle would be lighter and more mobile...

    Regarding your suggestion about the D-30 replacing the MT-12, the 100mm smoothbore gun is basically a high velocity tank gun, while the D-30 is a 122mm medium pressure artillery piece.

    I would suspect the D-30 will be replaced with the new PAT-B in 152mm calibre.

    The MT-12 would be better replaced with a 125mm gun like the towed Sprut.

    Its virtue is that it is not needed for anything else and is rather powerful against a range of targets.

    Towed guns can have any length penetrator or missile you care to load in their tube...

    My personal opinion is that if they produced a system similar to the Nona-K. a system that can fire mortars, artillery shells, but with the addition of anti armour rounds and ATGW system, while keeping the system light.

    Vena mortar carrier has a 120mm gun/mortar that can fire standard 120mm mortar bombs as well as HE shells and HEAT shells and 122mm missiles like Kitilov as well as the 120mm Gran guided missiles.

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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:10 am

    GarryB wrote:SPG-9 was originally an anti armour weapon, but it seems what they want is a direct fire (ie more accurate than a mortar or indirect artillery) weapon with a decent punch.

    First thought was actually a towed version of the 100mm rifled gun from the BMP-3, but a recoilless rifle would be lighter and more mobile...

    Regarding your suggestion about the D-30 replacing the MT-12, the 100mm smoothbore gun is basically a high velocity tank gun, while the D-30 is a 122mm medium pressure artillery piece.

    I would suspect the D-30 will be replaced with the new PAT-B in 152mm calibre.

    The MT-12 would be better replaced with a 125mm gun like the towed Sprut.

    Its virtue is that it is not needed for anything else and is rather powerful against a range of targets.

    Towed guns can have any length penetrator or missile you care to load in their tube...

    My personal opinion is that if they produced a system similar to the Nona-K. a system that can fire mortars, artillery shells, but with the addition of anti armour rounds and ATGW system, while keeping the system light.

    Vena mortar carrier has a 120mm gun/mortar that can fire standard 120mm mortar bombs as well as HE shells and HEAT shells and 122mm missiles like Kitilov as well as the 120mm Gran guided missiles.

    Agreed with spg-9  point. 
    As for the D-30 point this was used as a possibility if they choose to want a artillery based role. I am lead to believe MT-12 it's now mostly used as artillery and direct fire as secondary. One of my main points is what's likely to replace it. It's very clear sprut hasn't been chosen. As stated packs enough firepower but almost three times the weight less mobilty in regards to transportation and more expensive. Vena isn't a towed mount and as suggested and even by u on another thread the advantages of having a towed mount. What I suggested was about half the weight of MT-12 and 6 times lighter than sprut. And more uses. Vena doesn't seem to been taken up either by Russian forces how many in service? My suggestion was something that can be mounted on a towed mount as well as a variety of vehicles. 

    So back to square one lol. Still no sign of what's likely to replace MT-12. It's not sprut and it's not vena lol.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:19 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Hole wrote:Russia used guns and ATGM´s side by side for more than 40 (50?) years. It´s a question of philosopy. Like the ZU-23 or the new 2S38 in air defence.

    A towed gun is much cheaper then a self-propelled gun or ATGM system. For some roles (static defence or defence of rear services) a towed gun would be enough.

    And the MT-12 and the 2A45 can fire guided missiles.

    Actually towed gun is alot more expencive to buy than an ATGM system. Stays question of ammunition that is obvously on the expencive side with an ATGMs.

    MT-12s were deemed as obsolete by Yugoslavian National Army 30 years ago, imagine today. We retired ours more than a decade ago. Main issue is lack of tactical mobility and size.

    If i had to choose place where not to be in combat it would be MT-12 crew.
    On cost i am not 100% sure depends on the gun V's type of ATGW, guns of MT-12 and sprut  its likely expensive due being massive amounts of metal while atgw uses more composite materials it's guidance/targeting systems are expensive. Yes  ATGW missiles are more expensive. 

    I agree I wouldn't want to be on a battlefield behind the MT-12 or even sprut. Something light and mobile self propelled yes but a light towed mount for air dropping in hard to reach areas. Also quick set up and pack up is a must. Heavy anti armour guns have very limited use such as MT-12 and sprut. A lighter more versatile gun would be better. Leave ATGW system take on tanks
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:26 am

    As for the D-30 point this was used as a possibility if they choose to want a artillery based role.

    Sorry, I am thinking of this in an ammo perspective... they have 120mm gun mortars with similar performance to the 122mm artillery calibre, and of course the 125mm guns of various tanks and the towed model, so apart from the Grad rocket in 122mm calibre it seems to me that it would be good if they could retire the D-30 completely...

    In the 2S1 they can replace the 122mm calibre with a 120mm gun/mortar of almost the same range but actually a better range of projectiles... from 120mm mortar bombs of various types including the Gran guided missile, but in terms of shells they have a HEAT round, plus a HE frag and a HE rocket assisted Frag shell too.

    In the towed version they can replace all the 122mm D-30s with the 2A61 152mm towed howitzer... I didn't even know they had it... it uses the same mount as the D-30 which allows 360 degree traverse when set up and is only one ton heavier than the 122mm D-30.... 4.3 tons vs 3.3 tons.

    This means that if you replace the 2S1s with 2S34s and the D-30s with 2A61s then you can eliminate the 122mm calibre of artillery out of the stocks and supply chain.

    The Kitilov guided missile fired through the 122mm gun is compatible with the 120mm gun mortar weapons like Vena.

    I am lead to believe MT-12 it's now mostly used as artillery and direct fire as secondary.

    I suspect its high velocity would mean it would more often than not be used as a direct fire weapon, but because of this it would be rather more accurate than a lower velocity weapon. The high velocity would give it a flat trajectory and short flight time to target... which should also aid in accuracy.

    The ammo is already paid for and is hardly likely to be used for its original purpose.

    Vena isn't a towed mount and as suggested and even by u on another thread the advantages of having a towed mount.

    The gun mortar it uses comes in a towed version... 2B16, NONA-K... it is only 1.2 tons... compared with 3 tons for the MT-12 and 6 tons for the Sprut 125mm gun.

    Note the D-30 122mm artillery piece is just over 3 tons and the 152mm towed model is just over 4 tons.

    Of course at the end of the day even towed guns need a vehicle to move them and more importantly their ammo supply around the battlefield...

    The 120mm gun/mortar is actually rather light (note it has a substantial muzzle brake and is a gun, not a straight mortar... it can be used as a direct fire weapon and can fire shells with bag propellent).

    Vena doesn't seem to been taken up either by Russian forces how many in service

    They are just about to introduce vehicle families... expect the Armata, kurganets, boomerang, and typhoon 120mm mortar carriers to have very Vena like turrets...

    So back to square one lol. Still no sign of what's likely to replace MT-12. It's not sprut and it's not vena lol.

    The problem with a smoothbore.... how do you know when the barrel is worn out? Smile

    I suspect when they withdraw the D-30 from service and reserve the rear areas that use the MT-12 will move to old D-30s and 122mm ammo when the 100mm ammo runs out or the MT-12s are worn out...

    But NONA-K would be even better if they want to spend the money.

    If i had to choose place where not to be in combat it would be MT-12 crew.

    Half way up a hill in a base in Afghanistan.... you can see 4km away a terrorist group setting up TOW... the ZU-23-2 wont reach properly and neither will the HMGs like 12.7mm and 14.5mm, and of course the 30mm grenade launchers and even the new 40mm grenade launchers wont reach either.

    RPGs wont reach that far and you only have Metis... you don't have Kornet.

    During the 1980s you might have had a T-62 set up with ammo stacked next to it for use against such a threat, but with the MT-12 you just dial in the range, load up a HE round and boom... it might take 2-3 shots to obliterate the TOW position but that is no problem... it takes a while to set TOW up and they wont be leaving fast anyway.

    Equally you see a large truck barrelling along the dusty road heading towards your position... It is not an afghan truck and it isn't a Russian one and someone has wielded metal plate over the front to stop small arms fire from preventing the suicide attack from taking place.... with MT-12 you could start firing very early and be assured to be able to take it out at long range with one solid hit...

    With that sort of muzzle velocity you could even have a go at hovering helos using APFSDS rounds... and of course there are the guided missile rounds too... they will need to be used up... they could also be used in any T-54/55 with a 100mm rifled gun, with the 100mm smoothbore gun of the MT-12, the 100mm medium pressure rifled gun of the BMP-3, or indeed the 115mm gun of the T-62 which uses the same missile but with different casings and sleeves (in the case of the 115mm weapon).

    On cost i am not 100% sure depends on the gun V's type of ATGW, guns of MT-12 and sprut its likely expensive due being massive amounts of metal while atgw uses more composite materials it's guidance/targeting systems are expensive. Yes ATGW missiles are more expensive.

    Doesn't matter what it cost to make the 100mm ammo for the MT-12... it is not compatible with any other gun (except the missiles as explained above), and it has already been paid for and might as well be used.

    ATGMs on the other hand are not cheap so storing them for when you need them makes sense. Fire off one or two during training so your crews have experience in actually using them, but do most of the shooting with the MT-12 and other cheap systems...

    I agree I wouldn't want to be on a battlefield behind the MT-12 or even sprut. Something light and mobile self propelled yes but a light towed mount for air dropping in hard to reach areas. Also quick set up and pack up is a must. Heavy anti armour guns have very limited use such as MT-12 and sprut. A lighter more versatile gun would be better. Leave ATGW system take on tanks

    A vehicle on a battlefield will be a missile magnet, whereas with the MT-12 they will be shooting at the gun but not necessarily get the crew...

    A towed gun is less likely to run away so it better for defence... the Sprut fires standard full charge 125mm ammo so should be just as effective as any other 125mm gun on the battlefield... and lets be honest you could load any length penetrator you wanted in a towed gun.

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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:31 am

    BTW you might find this article interesting:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/11/22/russia-missile-artillery-forces-make-strides-toward-enhancing-combat-capabilities.html
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:35 pm

    A few articles had stated that artillery was now it's primary role. I think the main question that needs answered is what role does Russia want in replacement of the MT-12. 

    D-30 & 2S1 is likely going to be around longer than MT-12 with 122mm ammo being more widespread use. And as u stated 100mm ammo slowly phasing out with T-55 users being the main customers. 

    Vena as u say likely won't happen as they wait for the new vehicles but 120mm ammo is highly likely to continue hence a replacement based on nona -k as majority of the work is already done and they won't /need to spend a fortune on a new system for replacement. 

    Not sure how accurate a MT-12 would at a speeding car or truck. In terms of the afghan scenario what I suggested as replacement would do the same job but offer more versatility/roles and be at least 50% lighter than MT-12 and smaller and have more transportation options in terms of helicopters. 

    Also the potential of export could be a success as either a towed mount or as a mount on various platforms as mentioned. So this is not only an opportunity to replace an aging system but remove a calibre from russian service. As well as giving a better system to troops but to also make money on the export market and to keep customers from going for western systems. You would also offer something unique something west doesn't have. 

    Yes the enemy would be aiming at the gun but directly behind the gun is troops I for one wouldn't want to stand behind or rely on protection of the gun when the enemy is firing all kinds of things from tank rounds 30mm rounds rockets etc. The gun might be smaller than a tank but it's still a big gun and a tank has the advantage of armour and be able to move fairly quickly compared to a towed gun of this size. Tanks will go after tanks first because that is more of a threat than the 100mm ammo used by MT-12. Only the missile poses the biggest threat. 

    But it's quite interesting that there hasn't been much interest in its replacement and I doubt stocks of ammo have much to do with it as many countries still use T-55 so must still have plenty orders for the ammo in storage.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:27 am

    D-30 & 2S1 is likely going to be around longer than MT-12 with 122mm ammo being more widespread use. And as u stated 100mm ammo slowly phasing out with T-55 users being the main customers.

    No... the T-54/55 uses different ammo... the gun in that tank is a rifled 100mm high pressure gun. The 100mm MT-12 is a smoothbore high pressure gun, while the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 is a medium pressure gun that mainly fires HE rounds and guided missiles.

    The 100mm ammo used with the MT-12 is not used on any other gun.

    Vena as u say likely won't happen as they wait for the new vehicles but 120mm ammo is highly likely to continue hence a replacement based on nona -k as majority of the work is already done and they won't /need to spend a fortune on a new system for replacement.

    The Vena is based on the BMP-3 chassis... the only future I could see for it would be if they put it on a BMD-4 chassis and the airborne forces used it.

    The turret and systems could easily be transplanted to the Armata, Kuganets, Boomerang, and Typhoon... but for existing conventional forces... they have enormous numbers of 2S1 with spare parts and bits and pieces... the 2S34 Hosta version with a 120mm gun/mortar would be direct competition to the Vena, but the vehicles are all already paid for and in service.

    I have no proof or sound bite telling me this but I suspect the technology from Vena will be used to upgrade the new vehicle family 120mm mortar carriers, and the turrets and concept could be applied to the 2S1 vehicles for units using older generation vehicles till they are worn out.

    The communication and firepower improvements would make them essentially mobile self contained fire bases that could operate anywhere and deliver fire to where it is needed when it is needed.

    Not sure how accurate a MT-12 would at a speeding car or truck. In terms of the afghan scenario what I suggested as replacement would do the same job but offer more versatility/roles and be at least 50% lighter than MT-12 and smaller and have more transportation options in terms of helicopters.

    Well the point is that with very heavy IED vehicles they will need to drive down a road, which makes their path relatively predictable.

    Second of course the MT-12 will be located at the base the IED is heading for, so rather than shooting at a crossing target... which I agree would be tricky, they will generally be shooting at a closing target.

    Third the velocity of the round means it covers over 1km every second so the ability to dodge would be greatly reduced.

    I think we also need to keep in mind it is being used because it is cheap. It is cheap because it is already paid for... even if you scrap them you wont get your money back, so as long as it can do the job it is the best choice as it is free. ATGMs could be used as last line last resort against a tricky target (air or ground based threat), but would also be the not so cheap option.

    Of all the options the lightest by far would be the NONA-K 120mm towed gun/mortar, which is just over 1 ton.

    I would expect an 82mm automatic mortar design on a Tigr or lighter platform would be an interesting option too...

    But it's quite interesting that there hasn't been much interest in its replacement and I doubt stocks of ammo have much to do with it as many countries still use T-55 so must still have plenty orders for the ammo in storage.

    The development of the Armata/kurganets/boomerang/typhoon families of vehicles will be interesting... it will create a range of vehicle types (ie heavy tracked, medium tracked, medium wheeled, and light wheeled) armed with the full variety of sensors and weapons and systems...

    For instance the MBT vehicle will generally have a 125mm main gun likely on all but the Typhoon which might just be too light... but this will be in addition to the T-90MS and of course the Sprut light tank. I suspect the Typhoon will be a light 12-16 ton vehicle possibly armed with a 57mm high velocity gun that could be used in places where other armour cannot operate. Against enemy IFVs and other light armour the 57mm gun and missiles would be easily enough fire power for most situations.

    There is also a 57mm low velocity grenade launcher they were developing too, which would be much more potent than the high velocity 57mm gun fitted to the IFVs as its HE shell would be much much bigger. Its velocity would be much lower, but velocity is not really important in this regard.

    Of course for defending bases from IED attack you could dig in your towed weapon and cover it with sand bag protection and the enemy might not even know it is there until it opens fire. In afghanistan the Soviets dug out positions for T-62 tanks to sit and fire in an area that was used to attack the base constantly.... I remember a photo of a T-62 covered in sandbags with stacks of fired rounds stacked up around it too...

    Towed weapons are cheaper and simpler, but are more exposed and offer less protection to their crews... but given the choice of a ZU-23-2 or a PKM... the former has more punch and more range and is vastly more effective against light vehicles too.

    The question you pose is what will replace the currently used MT-12 and SPG-9... the replacement for the MT-12 was the Sprut in its original role, but the expansion of the role of missiles suggests perhaps instead of using Sprut they might use old tanks with 125mm guns for base defence in an immobile role.

    Equally I think the Metis and Metis-M have rendered the SPG-9 obsolete in the anti tank role but for direct fire support within units they have BMP-1 and BMP-3 with 73mm and 100mm weapons respectively.

    In fact the SPG-9 looks rather suspiciously like the 73mm ammo from the BMP-1 and I think they are certainly related if not compatible, so the solution might be the same for bases, but such solutions are not really as portable... a Russian special forces team are not going to haul a BMP-1 up a mountain in Afghanistan for a sneaky observation base so they can lob HE rounds on anyone who approaches... I suspect an upgraded SPG-9 or even larger calibre might be decided... the key is that it can accurately direct HE rounds to point targets out to 2-4km or so, but not be expensive.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:28 pm

    Sorry my mistake I thought it used same ammo as BS-3 which uses same as T-55. So likely another good reason to phase it out (MT-12).

    82mm automatic mortar system would be good and they already have anti armour rounds available for the calibre.  I heard a Mention of it being a tigr-M is good idea. 

    2S1 because of sheer number will be around for sometime still useful in my eyes. I agree that the mortar system of vena will likely be placed on various platforms once u have a good mortar barrel theres not much in  the way of improvement other than ammo. 

    Having a vena turret on MT-LB would be good idea. 

    Although having the number of MT-12 in service vs Russian need for base defence vs IED is far too many. I wonder if any evidence of syrianconflict of large guns like this deployed as such against IEDs. ??

    Spg-9 type weapon for HE use in mountainousarea's I agree and if worse comes to it and u have to bug out u haven't left a high tech or expensive weapon behind. Ammo accuracy and range needs improving along with the system being lighter and these three areas I'd imagine is what there looking at for new system.


    As for spg-9 I meant now not in the past. And sprut maybe initially designed as replacement it failed to do so how many in Russian service?  And how many MT-12? Clear indication
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:49 am

    Sorry my mistake I thought it used same ammo as BS-3 which uses same as T-55. So likely another good reason to phase it out (MT-12).

    Certainly depending on the stock level... you could manage the number of guns and parts with the available ammo stocks and when they run out you could just dispose of the guns.

    The difference in performance between the 100mm tank guns is not really significant enough to warrant something drastic like fitting the smooth bore guns to tanks or anything.

    The point is that it is currently a useful way of directly delivering HE rounds over significant distances in a direct fire accurate way.

    Anything else is going to be more expensive because you will have to buy it...

    82mm automatic mortar system would be good and they already have anti armour rounds available for the calibre. I heard a Mention of it being a tigr-M is good idea.

    The problem there is that it is less accurate indirect fire with a relatively low velocity round... I wonder how much 115mm smooth bore ammo they might have...

    Even the 100mm rifled round from the BMP-3 is probably too low a velocity for easy use with simple iron sights... the high velocity 100mm smooth bore spat those rounds out at high velocities so it made it much easier to hit targets with the first round...

    2S1 because of sheer number will be around for sometime still useful in my eyes. I agree that the mortar system of vena will likely be placed on various platforms once u have a good mortar barrel theres not much in the way of improvement other than ammo.

    The range difference between the 122mm and the 120mm gun/mortar is so small as to not worry about, so removing the 122mm artillery calibre from the logistics system is a serious benefit with a minor decrease in max range.

    Compensated for that is the fact that the 2S1 vehicle with its upgrade of systems should be just as effective, and able to use a much wider range of ammo types for different targets.

    The D-30 gun mounts can be fitted with 152mm guns which deliver a much more powerful shell over a similar range (about 15km), plus the NONA-K towed gun platform also offers good performance for light weight too.

    Having a vena turret on MT-LB would be good idea.

    I would put the vena turret on the new vehicle families and for the older vehicle units the 2S34 Hosta should suffice with the 120mm gun/mortar system installed and most of the vena upgrades in communicaitons and autoloading etc.

    Although having the number of MT-12 in service vs Russian need for base defence vs IED is far too many. I wonder if any evidence of syrianconflict of large guns like this deployed as such against IEDs. ??

    I rather suspect in Russia there are plenty of older model tanks that could be parked up in bases to defend against enemy vehicle based IEDS...

    The BMPT is a vehicle to help tanks operate without their own infantry support, but are also used for convoy escort as a serious fire power platform... in that regard it would also likely be a good base defender too. And being mobile would be a benefit too... enemy forces planning attacks will take note of major aspects of the base... I know in Afghanistan they used to determine where the ZU-23-2s and AGS-17s were located before the attacks... having lots of positions prepared would allow such things to be moved when necessary, but a vehicle based platform of a previous generation so it is not too expensive could be a good idea for that.

    Note in Vietnam the Americans used a Duster for that role (open turret roof but two 40mm bofors guns for anti aircraft use).

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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:58 am

    What is evident from your posts when stand back and look at it is there is quite a few systems some in large quantities some like vena sprut nona-k hosta/costa in very small numbers and as for the MT-12 having an aging unique ammo and gun being pretty big and heavy. on the cheap yes they could keep using these systems but it's clear that Russia plans to refine and slim down its calibre sizes and having a modular systems/turrets for various platforms. The new system would be one system with one calibre 120mm and can be mounted on a towed mount or other platforms older and newer this would pave the way forward to clear ammo calibre of MT-12 and streamline the many systems in service. Russia can still sell off the ammo to export customers and the condition of ammo is also a concern. I don't know how much is in storage or what condition it is in but what we do know is that it is getting smaller each year. 

    so these systems as they start to be replaced by newer systems the question remains what will replace MT-12  (it's not sprut we know that) and will it be SP ? 
    The one of reasons why it would be good idea to develop a system as we/you mentioned such as a lighter multirole system similar to nona-k a 120mm gun where mortar artillery anti armour/atgw which can be mounted on a towed or SP platform is that testing can be done now ready for the new vehicles but also allow for the system to be exported giving Russian companies and customers the option of using it to upgrade on older platforms where countries can't afford or are looking for such a multirole system and let's face it the new series of vehicles are not going to be available for export anytime soon. and designing such a system can be done quickly by Russian companies majority of the work has been done in terms of rounds and systems


    on the subject of export Russia needs to make sure it keeps it's customers and gains new customers especially with all this anti russian crap going on and having new useful systems for customers ensures Russia keeps it's share of defence pie. and let's face it this system won't be expensive so even the nation's with small budgets will be able to buy it's also an attractive solution to many forces. As you turn and older platform into a multi role unit. For example african market many forces have a small pool base of vehicles many of which are soviet era and Africa armed forces tend like wheeled vehicles Russia has an abundance of btr-60/70 as well as being able to produce btr-80 and for tracked bmp-1 in abundance. sell these with the new system or sell systems to upgrade there current vehicles even BRDM-2 and T-55/T-62 could be upgraded with it. This then eliminates the need for separate system a mortar system artillery system anti armour systems when ur funds arm limited you not be armrest to purchase each separate system african forces have armrest hard time keeping current systems going being able to select a few vehicles for upgrade with this system you can effectively reduce the number of platforms to maintain if ur struggling with current budget to keep all systems running. and the anti armour capabilities of the system will be enough for armour threat they face. thus would allow Russia to likely gain new customers and ensures future purchases of Russian ammo. 

    The west it seems hell bend on undermining Russia at every turn and Russian arms deals seems to pissed them off. And Russia and China showing growing influence in Africa why shouldn't that include arms deals however small it's still money. And african armed forces are never really going to buy the high end equipment not just down to cost but also needs. and it's not just African market that would make this system attractive but also south/central America and Asian market including ex soviet states. The only threat this new system poses is that it would likely curb potential sales of vena, hosta, 2s23


    on our talk of the usefulness of a towed universal mount in which various other systems could be mounted I think one system which would be highly effective in our scenario for mountainous areas would be the new AA 57mm gun on such a mount would give you a decent air defence system but also a good long range direct fire weapon that packs a punch. The enemy could be engaged at very long distances they have a hard time in coping with such firepower and range. 
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:25 am

    What is evident from your posts when stand back and look at it is there is quite a few systems some in large quantities some like vena sprut nona-k hosta/costa in very small numbers and as for the MT-12 having an aging unique ammo and gun being pretty big and heavy. on the cheap yes they could keep using these systems but it's clear that Russia plans to refine and slim down its calibre sizes and having a modular systems/turrets for various platforms.

    Well I think the only real advantage of MT-12 is that it is free... it is already paid for, so using it, instead of buying something else to do the same job makes perfect sense.

    Once all the ammo is used up however then you need to make some decisions.

    The 120mm mortar rounds are in production and will stay in production because they are used, while the 120mm shells are already also in production, but their production will increase as 2S1s are converted to 2S34s.

    I don't think the Vena in its current form will enter service... but I think a 120mm gun/mortar platform will be present in the brigades of all the vehicle family types, and I think they will also therefore produce the towed model because it is so light and would be relatively cheap.

    The problem is that it is not a high velocity weapon... the difference between an MT-12 and a towed NONA-K is like comparing firing a 5.45x39mm round from an RPK-74 and launching a 40mm grenade at a target a 400m.

    The high velocity round will be cheaper and likely more accurate, but the grenade should get the job done if you know what you are doing.

    These days a cheap laser range finder should mean indirect fire should get better as range estimation errors are eliminated.

    The only thing is that fast rounds take less time to get to the target, which means less time for the target to move.

    The new system would be one system with one calibre 120mm and can be mounted on a towed mount or other platforms older and newer this would pave the way forward to clear ammo calibre of MT-12 and streamline the many systems in service. Russia can still sell off the ammo to export customers and the condition of ammo is also a concern. I don't know how much is in storage or what condition it is in but what we do know is that it is getting smaller each year.

    It would also be a question of what ammo types were produced and what types are left.

    The 100mm gun of the T-54/55 tank has 3 main rounds... an APFSDS round that is just under 21kgs in weight with a 5kg projectile moving at 1.4km/s. The HEAT round is 22kgs and has a 10kg projectile moving at just over 1km/s. The HE round weighs 30kgs and the projectile weighs 15.6kgs and moves at 900m/s.

    The MT-12 also has three main rounds with fairly similar specs: APFSDS 20kgs weight with a 4.5kg projectile at 1.55km/s. HEAT is 23kgs with a 9.5kg projectile at 1km/s, while the HE round is 29kg with a 17kg projectile at 700m/s.

    The MT-12 was intended to be a multipurpose gun, so large amounts of all types of ammo were likely made and used.

    so these systems as they start to be replaced by newer systems the question remains what will replace MT-12 (it's not sprut we know that) and will it be SP ?

    I suspect the low cost means they likely will replace it with a towed weapon... perhaps the 152mm gun they are replacing the D-30 with, but the NONA-K is a much lighter system and offers some flexibility in that it can be used as a gun or a mortar.

    [quote]on our talk of the usefulness of a towed universal mount in which various other systems could be mounted I think one system which would be highly effective in our scenario for mountainous areas would be the new AA[.quote]

    Actually I was thinking of two. One like the mount for the ZU-23-2, for weapons from rifle calibre machine gun, up through heavy machine gun and automatic grenade launcher, to light automatic cannon... so 7.62x54, 12.7mm, 14.5mm, 23x115mm, 23x152mm, 30x165mm, 57mm, plus grenade launchers in 30mm, 40mm, 57mm and 82mm auto mortars.

    The second mount I was thinking of was the D-30 gun mount where the trails are folded out at 120 degree angles to give full 360 degree aiming for the weapon but for heavier weapons... it could be used for guns from 120mm and up... ie 120mm gun/mortar, 125mm high velocity tank gun, and 152mm artillery gun.

    I don't think it would be practical to have one universal mount because it would be too heavy for the light stuff or too light for the heavy stuff which would be dangerous.

    Splitting the design into two, means the lighter mount could be a better fit for the lighter weapons, though you might have a four gun PKM mount for fire support or something or twin 50 cals or twin 14.5mm guns or cannon.

    The 30mm gun would use the 2M38M cannon from the Tunguska so it would be a twin barrel weapon anyway.

    The lighter mount could have a missile launcher for Kornet missiles for air and ground targets or SOSNA missiles for air targets or the new square rocket pods they are developing for use against ground targets.
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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  eehnie on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:46 pm

    For me, the cheapest and likely most effective replacement for the (M)T-12 anti-tank weapons of 100mm in active service, would be with 125mm tanks of the Russian reserve. Without costs, even without modernization, they are a big improvement over the (M)T-12 on fire power, on range, on mobility, on protection of the crew and even on standardization in the units. The Russian reserve has units in the reserve of the T-90, T-72 and T-80 in more than enough amounts to keep tanks of a single model in every unit after a potential replacement of the (M)T-12 with tanks of 125mm.

    Taking into account that anti-tank and tank weapons of the same caliber share gun in most of the cases, this would be cheapest available option, without cost of development or production. At this point there is not a reserve in Russia of other self-propelled anti-tank weapons of 125mm, and the towed weapons reached not the Russian Armed Forces.

    Russia can also replace the rest of its towed artillery in active service with equivalent untis of self-propelled weapons in the reserve:

    2A65 Msta-B <-----> 2S19 Msta-S + some 2S5 Giatsint-S
    2A36 Giatsint-B <-----> 2S5 Giatsint-S

    2B16 Nona-K <-----> 2S23 Nona-SVK
    2A18 D-30 <-----> 2S1 Gvozdika

    The total removal and replacement of the towed artillery in active service in the Russian Armed Forces can be done without problem and without cost when Russia wants it. The towed weapons only remain in use to accelerate their exhaustion and to keep in better condition the self-propelled artillery.

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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:31 am

    For me, the cheapest and likely most effective replacement for the (M)T-12 anti-tank weapons of 100mm in active service, would be with 125mm tanks of the Russian reserve.

    The problem there is that the operational costs of keeping all those vehicles operational in roles where that sort of mobility might not be needed makes it less attractive as a replacement.

    The attractiveness of the MT-12 was the fact that they had the ammo and the guns that were not really practical for anything else.

    Obviously in real combat with a well equipped enemy they would be perfectly useful for dealing with any non tank armoured target... APCs, IFVs, and pretty much any other vehicle except a MBT, while also being ideal for use against troop concentrations, MG positions, Snipers, bunkers, and other battlefield targets.
    Their small size means with camo you might not notice them until they opened fire... and by then it might be too late.

    Not every base or position can afford to have tanks sitting there offering protection.

    If the idea of putting an old obsolete tank everywhere they were using the MT-12, they could easily have done that in the past and used T-54/55 vehicles as they built enormous numbers of them and the gun is very similar in performance too.

    This suggests there was something useful about a light weight small towed gun, which suggests any replacement should also be a small light towed gun too.

    The question is... what should it fire. I suspect power wasn't an issue because the 100mm gun was doing the job even after the 125mm gun entered service, so I would think the 120mm calibre might be a useful replacement that does not make the towed gun mount get too heavy and cumbersome.

    You could go for 125mm or 152mm, but I think they will make it too heavy and too expensive to deploy widely.

    Perhaps they could replace it with the new version of the SPG-9?

    Russia can also replace the rest of its towed artillery in active service with equivalent untis of self-propelled weapons in the reserve:

    There you go again thinking this is about replacing towed weapons with self propelled... I rather suspect it is not.

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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:36 pm

    I agree with GarryB. tanks cost more to run need much more training and are much more heavier. 

    As for towed weapons I think covered this on the advantages of having towed weapons being able to deploy quickly to front line including underslung on helicopters and being deployed to remote or hard to reach areas such as mountains. If towed weapons were no longer useful then other countries with big budgets  (usa) would have replaced them by now and other countries wouldn't be producing them. 

    @GarryB I agree with having the two mounts one light mount the other for heavier weapons. on the light version when u mentioned high velocity etc the rounds being fired in direct fire role would be mainly for light armour and buildings so something similar in performance as bmp-3 100mm gun although being 120mm could effectively pack a little more punch with added HE. for heavier armour or faster moving you would missile such as bastion.

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    Re: T-12/MT-12 and SPG-9 replacement (other future towed systems)

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