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    Russia-Turkey S-400 missile deal


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    Post  LMFS on Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:17 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:But does the cost factor in France, Germany, and effectively Turkey leaving the program?
    France and Germany are not partners as far as I know and Turkey has not yet left.

    The cost estimates for all the program would be affected by increase or reduction of total number of orders, but there have been new customers as well so I am not sure what is the currently expected number of aircraft.

    GarryB wrote:
    I suspect the cost of operational use and continued problems with the aircraft has led to them reducing their profit margin, and more important those charts show projected prices... when countries reduce their order numbers that will normally have the reverse effect.

    So with the price going down and orders going down... better watch out for material substitution and simple fraud.

    The Airframe life was supposed to be 8,000 hours and is actually only about 2,000 hours, which is going to effect lifetime costs, because these birds are going to die young.
    My feeling is that Trump came with his "deal mastery" threatening to cut the program and then lower prices were forced on Lockheed and P&W, which had been probably ripping off the DoD in previous LRIPs. So much for free market economy...

    APUC and PAUC are projected prices, LRIP prices are not.

    Airframe life issues were with some of the early manufactured units, not with the current ones AFAIK

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    Post  Godric on Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:39 am

    LMFS wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:There is, in no way, it is lower than $100M. Not only the parts are made in multiple different countries, but it being cheaper than Rafale as an example where whole production is at home, is silly.

    No, it was debunked. Sorry dude.

    Best bet? See how much it costs let's say Italy or others in their next upcoming orders (or Poland).
    The data you saw are the APUC and PAUC related to program wide costs. I researched this, I am positive about it.

    Unit Costs
    As of December 2017, the F-35 program had a program acquisition unit cost (or PAUC, meaning total acquisition cost divided by the 2,456 research and development and procurement aircraft) of about $110.0 million and an average procurement unit cost (or APUC, meaning total procurement cost divided by the 2,443 production aircraft) of $89.8 million, in constant FY2012 dollars

    However, this reflects the cost of the aircraft without its engine, as the engine program was broken out as a separate reporting line in 2011.
    As of December 2017, the F-35 engine program had a program acquisition unit cost of about $21.6 million and an average procurement unit cost of $16.4 million in constant FY2012 dollars. Just as the reported airframe costs represent a program average and do not discriminate among the variants, the engine costs do not discriminate between the single engines used in the F-35A and C and the more expensive engine/lift fan combination for the F-35B.
    However, beginning in December 2016, DOD’s Selected Acquisition Reports broke out unit recurring flyaway costs of the three engines as well as the separate airframes, as follows:

    Russia-Turkey S-400 missile deal - Page 3 Costs_15
    Unit Cost Projections
    The F-35 program continues efforts to make the F-35 cost-competitive with previous-generation aircraft. (It should be noted that the articles cited below reference the cost of the F-35A, the simplest model.)
    F-35 fighter jets will sell for as little as $80 million in five years, according to the Pentagon official running the program.
    “The cost of an F-35A in 2019 will be somewhere between $80 and $85 million, with an engine, with profit, with inflation,” U.S. Air Force Lieutenant General Christopher Bogdan, the Pentagon’s manager of the program, told reporters in Canberra today.109
    That article dated from 2014. More recently, efforts have been increased to reach the same target:
    [Lockheed Martin] will invest up to $170 million over the next two years to extend its existing “Blueprint for Affordability” measure ... to drive down the unit cost of an F-35A to $85 million by 2019.110
    As noted in Table 4, the average unit flyaway cost of an F-35A is officially projected at $77.5 million.

    Beyond the table I already submitted:

    For the eleventh consecutive year, the cost of an F-35A was lowered. The F-35A unit price including aircraft, engine and fee, is $89.2 million. This represents a 5.4 percent reduction from the $94.3 million it cost for an F-35A in Low-Rate Initial Production Lot 10 (LRIP 10).

    As said, they have many ways of recovering the money after the sale, given not accessing ALIS will get your fleet grounded. And if Rafale sells more expensive then it says all about market value of both planes I guess...

    if those prices are correct the UK /Royal Navy is being ripped off as UK is paying more than £160 million for each F-35B Laughing Laughing

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:33 pm

    It says projected cost... it is what they are estimating... the way they estimated that it would be in service in 2010 and would be in full scale mass production by now too...

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