Utility/Auxilliary aircrafts in RuAF

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:I had heard of plans but didn't see anything but isn't this aircraft for a specific civilian role? Or will it be used as military and other roles? Honeywell engine I would imagine russian military would use something russian built engine

The orders of An-2 after 1970 were minimal. The Russian Armed Forces keep like 3 active and 4 reserve aircrafts produced after 1970. The production of An-2 between 1971 and 1991 was almost totally for civilian purposes and export.

Many designs wanted to be the successor of the An-2, but failed both for military and civil purposes. The concept is outdated.

eehnie wrote:For military purposes the An-2 has too low service ceiling. 4500m means the aircraft can not fly avoiding manpads.
In the role of transport aircraft, the An-2 and the current aircrafts of its size cathegory lack the payload necessary to be useful today.
In the role of airliner aircraft, the An-2 lacks the capacity to make its use profitable today.
In overall terms this concept is outdated today.

All it is reflected in the low number of orders of the successors of the An-2 in the last decades.

Of course the units in service still are used, but in the refered to the Russian Armed Forces very likely are under exhaustion in the mid-term and will not have replacement with aircrafts of its size cathegory. In this aircraft cathegory helicopters dominate.

eehnie wrote:For military purposes the An-2 has too low service ceiling. 4500m means the aircraft can not fly avoiding manpads.
In the role of transport aircraft, the An-2 and the current aircrafts of its size cathegory lack the payload necessary to be useful today.
In the role of airliner aircraft, the An-2 lacks the capacity to make its use profitable today.
In overall terms this concept is outdated today.

All it is reflected in the low number of orders of the successors of the An-2 in the last decades.

Of course the units in service still are used, but in the refered to the Russian Armed Forces very likely are under exhaustion in the mid-term and will not have replacement with aircrafts of its size cathegory. In this aircraft cathegory helicopters dominate.

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:For military purposes the An-2 has too low service ceiling. 4500m means the aircraft can not fly avoiding manpads.
In the role of transport aircraft, the An-2 and the current aircrafts of its size cathegory lack the payload necessary to be useful today.
In the role of airliner aircraft, the An-2 lacks the capacity to make its use profitable today.
In overall terms this concept is outdated today.

All it is reflected in the low number of orders of the successors of the An-2 in the last decades.

Of course the units in service still are used, but in the refered to the Russian Armed Forces very likely are under exhaustion in the mid-term and will not have replacement with aircrafts of its size cathegory. In this aircraft cathegory helicopters dominate.

Yet again your argument fails to see that it all depends on requirements to say it's ceiling height capacity of payload and passengers. In fact no helicopters such as ansat mi-17 ka-60 can beat upgraded An-2 in range and if you look at what is being touted as replacement no helicopter comes even close. As for ceiling height you wouldn't be flying it within range of manpads unless you're mad. Just like you wouldn't fly an Il-76 within range of enemy air defence.

But obviously Rostec don't share the same views as you. February this year they stated that the TVS 2DTS a direct replacement for the An-2 has not only been signed off by them but various Russian ministries and Russian helicopter holding company so even they see the need for a replacement. The An-2 long service history proves just how useful it is since 1947. And reason for lack of sales for such newer aircraft is that there hasn't been any serious development of such an aircraft to spur sales in til now. The TVS 2DTS is an all weather all composite aircraft requiring no real runway and has a cruising speed of 350km/h  (much faster than cruising speed of q helicopter) carry 3.5tons and a range of 4,500km  (greater than any helicopter) the company has stated manufacturing facilities will built by 2019 and 2021-2025 200 are to be built. Yet you believe this sort of aircraft to be useless hmmmmmmm.

If there's a need to transport troops or supplies in smaller quantities to a rugged area or very small runway over a fairly medium range when a helicopter doesn't have the range and using a il-76 would be a waste of money carrying a smaller payload or a runway to small to handle a il-76 that is exactly where this type of aircraft fits in. And I have no doubt Russian military will purchase some of these parachute training to transport of supplies passengers and medical evac.


https://rostec.ru/en/news/rostec-to-launch-manufacturing-of-tvs-2dts-light-aircraft/

Vladimir79 wrote:

eehnie wrote:For military purposes the An-2 has too low service ceiling. 4500m means the aircraft can not fly avoiding manpads.
In the role of transport aircraft, the An-2 and the current aircrafts of its size cathegory lack the payload necessary to be useful today.
In the role of airliner aircraft, the An-2 lacks the capacity to make its use profitable today.
In overall terms this concept is outdated today.

All it is reflected in the low number of orders of the successors of the An-2 in the last decades.

Of course the units in service still are used, but in the refered to the Russian Armed Forces very likely are under exhaustion in the mid-term and will not have replacement with aircrafts of its size cathegory. In this aircraft cathegory helicopters dominate.

It is only $1.5m per unit, that is the selling point.  There are many countries that cannot afford more but still need this capability.  

eehnie wrote:

Taking into account the size of most of the countries, they are not tempted by the opton of longer range with really minimal payload.

These countries tend to order helicopters. Russia prepared a good range of models to offer in the size cathegories around the size of the An-2:

Ka-27 + Mi-8 families
Ka-60/62
Mi-Ansat
Ka-226

All them more successful than the aircrafts of the list of my previous comment, or with better prospect (in the case of the Ka-60/62

eehnie wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

eehnie wrote:For military purposes the An-2 has too low service ceiling. 4500m means the aircraft can not fly avoiding manpads.
In the role of transport aircraft, the An-2 and the current aircrafts of its size cathegory lack the payload necessary to be useful today.
In the role of airliner aircraft, the An-2 lacks the capacity to make its use profitable today.
In overall terms this concept is outdated today.

All it is reflected in the low number of orders of the successors of the An-2 in the last decades.

Of course the units in service still are used, but in the refered to the Russian Armed Forces very likely are under exhaustion in the mid-term and will not have replacement with aircrafts of its size cathegory. In this aircraft cathegory helicopters dominate.

It is only $1.5m per unit, that is the selling point.  There are many countries that cannot afford more but still need this capability.  

Taking into account the size of most of the countries, they are not tempted by the opton of longer range with really minimal payload.

These countries tend to order helicopters. Russia prepared a good range of models to offer in the size cathegories around the size of the An-2:

Ka-27 + Mi-8 families
Ka-60/62
Mi-Ansat
Ka-226

All them more successful than the aircrafts of the list of my previous comment, or with better prospect (in the case of the Ka-60/62

Vladimir79 wrote:

eehnie wrote:

Taking into account the size of most of the countries, they are not tempted by the opton of longer range with really minimal payload.

These countries tend to order helicopters. Russia prepared a good range of models to offer in the size cathegories around the size of the An-2:

Ka-27 + Mi-8 families
Ka-60/62
Mi-Ansat
Ka-226

All them more successful than the aircrafts of the list of my previous comment, or with better prospect (in the case of the Ka-60/62

The An-2 stopped production in 2001 with over 18,000 units produced.  

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:Taking into account the size of most of the countries, they are not tempted by the opton of longer range with really minimal payload.

These countries tend to order helicopters. Russia prepared a good range of models to offer in the size cathegories around the size of the An-2:

Ka-27 + Mi-8 families
Ka-60/62
Mi-Ansat
Ka-226

All them more successful than the aircrafts of the list of my previous comment, or with better prospect (in the case of the Ka-60/62

None of those helicopters have the range of An-2 and nowhere near the TVS 2DTS. When TVS 2DTS comes into production and start selling I will be there to remind you to eat your words lol

eehnie wrote:
What production are you counting between 1991 and 2001?

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:Taking into account the size of most of the countries, they are not tempted by the opton of longer range with really minimal payload.

These countries tend to order helicopters. Russia prepared a good range of models to offer in the size cathegories around the size of the An-2:

Ka-27 + Mi-8 families
Ka-60/62
Mi-Ansat
Ka-226

All them more successful than the aircrafts of the list of my previous comment, or with better prospect (in the case of the Ka-60/62

None of those helicopters have the range of An-2 and nowhere near the TVS 2DTS. When TVS 2DTS comes into production and start selling I will be there to remind you to eat your words lol

The range and other features of the veteran An-2 are perfectly matched by modern helicopters, that aditionally can avoid manpads. Then, if someone must begin eating own words, you can begin first.

Specifications (An-2)
Antonov An-2
Data from Biplanes, Triplanes, and Seaplanes[1]
General characteristics
Crew: 1–2
Capacity: 12 passengers
Length: 12.4 m (40 ft 8 in)
Wingspan:
Upper wing: 18.2 m (59 ft 8 in)
Lower wing: 14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.1 m (13 ft)
Wing area: 71.52 m² (769.8 ft²)
Empty weight: 3,300 kg (7,300 lb)
Useful load: 2,140 kg (4,700 lb)
Loaded weight: 5,440 kg (12,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Shvetsov ASh-62IR 9-cylinder supercharged radial engine, 750 kW (1,000 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 258 km/h (139 kn, 160 mph)
Cruise speed: 190 km/h (100 kn, 120 mph)
Stall speed: ~50 km/h (26 knots, 30 mph)
Range: 845 km (456 nmi, 525 mi)
Service ceiling: 4,500 m (14,750 ft)
Rate of climb: 3.5 m/s (700 ft/min)
Power/mass: 0.136 kW/kg (0.083 hp/lb)

Specifications
Profile Kamov Ka-60 Kasatka.png
Data from Jane's All The World's Aircraft 2003–2004,[1] Russian Helicopters[8]
General characteristics
Crew: 1–2
Capacity: ** 12–15 passengers (Ka-62)
14 infantry troops or 6 stretchers
Internal 2,000 kg (4,400 lb)
External 2,500 kg (5,500 lb)
Length: 15.60 m (51.2 ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.50 m (44.3 ft)
Height: 4.60 m (15.1 ft)
Disc area: 143.10 m² (1,540.3 sq ft)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,500 kg (14,300 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Turbomeca Ardiden 3G turboshaft, 1,776 shp (1,324 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 308 km/h (191 mph; 166 kn)
Cruise speed: 290 km/h (180 mph; 160 kn)
Range: 770 km (480 mi; 420 nmi) with main tanks
Service ceiling: 5,700 m (18,700 ft) operational, 3,300 m (10,800 ft) hover

Vladimir79 wrote:

eehnie wrote:
What production are you counting between 1991 and 2001?

China  

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:Taking into account the size of most of the countries, they are not tempted by the opton of longer range with really minimal payload.

These countries tend to order helicopters. Russia prepared a good range of models to offer in the size cathegories around the size of the An-2:

Ka-27 + Mi-8 families
Ka-60/62
Mi-Ansat
Ka-226

All them more successful than the aircrafts of the list of my previous comment, or with better prospect (in the case of the Ka-60/62

None of those helicopters have the range of An-2 and nowhere near the TVS 2DTS. When TVS 2DTS comes into production and start selling I will be there to remind you to eat your words lol

The range and other features of the veteran An-2 are perfectly matched by modern helicopters, that aditionally can avoid manpads. Then, if someone must begin eating own words, you can begin first.

Specifications (An-2)
Antonov An-2
Data from Biplanes, Triplanes, and Seaplanes[1]
General characteristics
Crew: 1–2
Capacity: 12 passengers
Length: 12.4 m (40 ft 8 in)
Wingspan:
Upper wing: 18.2 m (59 ft 8 in)
Lower wing: 14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.1 m (13 ft)
Wing area: 71.52 m² (769.8 ft²)
Empty weight: 3,300 kg (7,300 lb)
Useful load: 2,140 kg (4,700 lb)
Loaded weight: 5,440 kg (12,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Shvetsov ASh-62IR 9-cylinder supercharged radial engine, 750 kW (1,000 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 258 km/h (139 kn, 160 mph)
Cruise speed: 190 km/h (100 kn, 120 mph)
Stall speed: ~50 km/h (26 knots, 30 mph)
Range: 845 km (456 nmi, 525 mi)
Service ceiling: 4,500 m (14,750 ft)
Rate of climb: 3.5 m/s (700 ft/min)
Power/mass: 0.136 kW/kg (0.083 hp/lb)

Specifications
Profile Kamov Ka-60 Kasatka.png
Data from Jane's All The World's Aircraft 2003–2004,[1] Russian Helicopters[8]
General characteristics
Crew: 1–2
Capacity: ** 12–15 passengers (Ka-62)
14 infantry troops or 6 stretchers
Internal 2,000 kg (4,400 lb)
External 2,500 kg (5,500 lb)
Length: 15.60 m (51.2 ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.50 m (44.3 ft)
Height: 4.60 m (15.1 ft)
Disc area: 143.10 m² (1,540.3 sq ft)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,500 kg (14,300 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Turbomeca Ardiden 3G turboshaft, 1,776 shp (1,324 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 308 km/h (191 mph; 166 kn)
Cruise speed: 290 km/h (180 mph; 160 kn)
Range: 770 km (480 mi; 420 nmi) with main tanks
Service ceiling: 5,700 m (18,700 ft) operational, 3,300 m (10,800 ft) hover

You choose the firzt ever model stats but what about upgraded models many have had upgrades and change of fuel type. What about the other helicopters you mentioned eehnie? Compare there stats and You choose a helicopter that isn't even fully in production how many ka-60 are in service but seeing as you're choosing such a helicopter in its current stage of production then why don't you compare it with the TVS 2DTS and see how it compares I think you'll find it doesn't come close so you will be doing the eating. And of course eehnie you know better than the designers and Rostec who see the need for this type of aircraft as they are planning on putting it into production maybe just maybe they know the market better than you or I.

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:Taking into account the size of most of the countries, they are not tempted by the opton of longer range with really minimal payload.

These countries tend to order helicopters. Russia prepared a good range of models to offer in the size cathegories around the size of the An-2:

Ka-27 + Mi-8 families
Ka-60/62
Mi-Ansat
Ka-226

All them more successful than the aircrafts of the list of my previous comment, or with better prospect (in the case of the Ka-60/62

None of those helicopters have the range of An-2 and nowhere near the TVS 2DTS. When TVS 2DTS comes into production and start selling I will be there to remind you to eat your words lol

The range and other features of the veteran An-2 are perfectly matched by modern helicopters, that aditionally can avoid manpads. Then, if someone must begin eating own words, you can begin first.

Specifications (An-2)
Antonov An-2
Data from Biplanes, Triplanes, and Seaplanes[1]
General characteristics
Crew: 1–2
Capacity: 12 passengers
Length: 12.4 m (40 ft 8 in)
Wingspan:
Upper wing: 18.2 m (59 ft 8 in)
Lower wing: 14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.1 m (13 ft)
Wing area: 71.52 m² (769.8 ft²)
Empty weight: 3,300 kg (7,300 lb)
Useful load: 2,140 kg (4,700 lb)
Loaded weight: 5,440 kg (12,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Shvetsov ASh-62IR 9-cylinder supercharged radial engine, 750 kW (1,000 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 258 km/h (139 kn, 160 mph)
Cruise speed: 190 km/h (100 kn, 120 mph)
Stall speed: ~50 km/h (26 knots, 30 mph)
Range: 845 km (456 nmi, 525 mi)
Service ceiling: 4,500 m (14,750 ft)
Rate of climb: 3.5 m/s (700 ft/min)
Power/mass: 0.136 kW/kg (0.083 hp/lb)

Specifications
Profile Kamov Ka-60 Kasatka.png
Data from Jane's All The World's Aircraft 2003–2004,[1] Russian Helicopters[8]
General characteristics
Crew: 1–2
Capacity: ** 12–15 passengers (Ka-62)
14 infantry troops or 6 stretchers
Internal 2,000 kg (4,400 lb)
External 2,500 kg (5,500 lb)
Length: 15.60 m (51.2 ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.50 m (44.3 ft)
Height: 4.60 m (15.1 ft)
Disc area: 143.10 m² (1,540.3 sq ft)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,500 kg (14,300 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Turbomeca Ardiden 3G turboshaft, 1,776 shp (1,324 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 308 km/h (191 mph; 166 kn)
Cruise speed: 290 km/h (180 mph; 160 kn)
Range: 770 km (480 mi; 420 nmi) with main tanks
Service ceiling: 5,700 m (18,700 ft) operational, 3,300 m (10,800 ft) hover

You choose the firzt ever model stats but what about upgraded models many have had upgrades and change of fuel type. What about the other helicopters you mentioned eehnie? Compare there stats and You choose a helicopter that isn't even fully in production how many ka-60 are in service but seeing as you're choosing such a helicopter in its current stage of production then why don't you compare it with the TVS 2DTS and see how it compares I think you'll find it doesn't come close so you will be doing the eating. And of course eehnie you know better than the designers and Rostec who see the need for this type of aircraft as they are planning on putting it into production maybe just maybe they know the market better than you or I.

Another one:

Specifications (Mil-17-1A2)
Data from [135]
General characteristics
Crew: Three: two pilots and one engineer
Capacity: 24 troops or 12 stretchers or 4,000 kg (8,820 lb) cargo internally /5,000 kg (11,023 lb) externally slung.
Length: 18.465 m (60 ft 7 in)
Rotor diameter: 21.25 m (69 ft 10½ in)
Height: 4.76 m (15 ft 7¼ in)
Disc area: 356 m² (3,834 ft²)
Empty weight: 7,489 kg (16,510 lb)
Loaded weight: 11,100 kg (24,470 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 13,000 kg (28,660 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Klimov VK-2500PS-03 turboshaft, 2,400 hp () each
Performance
Maximum speed: 280 km/h (151 knots, 174 mph)
Cruise speed: 260 km/h
Range: 800 km (431 nmi, 497 mi) (with main fuel tanks)
Service ceiling: 6,000 m (19,690 ft)
Rate of climb: 8 m/s[citation needed] (1,575 ft/min)

d_taddei2 wrote:Forgot the Ansat and ka-226. Still mi-17 doesn't have the range of TVS 2DTS. This is the new replacement and my original post did state is their a replacement and this is it. You still fail to see that there's a market for this type of aircraft. But like I said eehnie the Oracle knows best. Better than Rostec.

eehnie wrote:

The main production of the aircraft seems done in Poland. The production since 1991 would be very low.
Also the production in China branded like Y-5 seems low, and it has been stopped in 2013. The demand of the Chinese aircraft has been low also in the last decades.

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Forgot the Ansat and ka-226. Still mi-17 doesn't have the range of TVS 2DTS. This is the new replacement and my original post did state is their a replacement and this is it. You still fail to see that there's a market for this type of aircraft. But like I said eehnie the Oracle knows best. Better than Rostec.

No, I do not fail. There are not data, real data, from the markets that allow to think in a success of this new variant(?). Neither in Russia, neither outside of Russia. Successful regional aircrafts in the last decades are at least of he size cathegory of the Su-Superjet. This is the reality.

With the time I had here similar discussions about the following aircrafts:

Rysachok
Be-200
SR-10
Il-112 (pending solution)

And I did not fail. It is about to apply correctly the knowledge gained in the Engineering School. Only that.

If the things go by logical terms:

Diamond DA42: Seems likely to fail to be adopted by the Russian Armed Forces.
L-410: Seems likely to have not a successful return to production in Russia.
TVS 2DTS variant of the An-2: Seems likely to repeat not the success of the previous variants neither for military nor civil purposes.

Vladimir79 wrote:

eehnie wrote:

The main production of the aircraft seems done in Poland. The production since 1991 would be very low.
Also the production in China branded like Y-5 seems low, and it has been stopped in 2013. The demand of the Chinese aircraft has been low also in the last decades.

China built a thousand Y-5 of varying types.  I didn't know Poland made them so long.  There is still a market for this aircraft with over 700 being flown.  A new and improved model could sell well. The aircraft is popular for crop dusting, bush pilots and parachuting thanks to it's slow speed characteristics. The DOSAFF and VVD would have an order book for 300 of a new aircraft.  I did most of my training jumps from the legendary An-2.  My uncle still owns one used for crop dusting  The farms need it for its high capacity and slow speed.  I could see the market go into the thousands.  It is not a competitor of helicopters which comes at a much higher price.  It is not ordered heavily today because it has outdated parts, this will fix that.

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Forgot the Ansat and ka-226. Still mi-17 doesn't have the range of TVS 2DTS. This is the new replacement and my original post did state is their a replacement and this is it. You still fail to see that there's a market for this type of aircraft. But like I said eehnie the Oracle knows best. Better than Rostec.

No, I do not fail. There are not data, real data, from the markets that allow to think in a success of this new variant(?). Neither in Russia, neither outside of Russia. Successful regional aircrafts in the last decades are at least of he size cathegory of the Su-Superjet. This is the reality.

With the time I had here similar discussions about the following aircrafts:

Rysachok
Be-200
SR-10
Il-112 (pending solution)

And I did not fail. It is about to apply correctly the knowledge gained in the Engineering School. Only that.

If the things go by logical terms:

Diamond DA42: Seems likely to fail to be adopted by the Russian Armed Forces.
L-410: Seems likely to have not a successful return to production in Russia.
TVS 2DTS variant of the An-2: Seems likely to repeat not the success of the previous variants neither for military nor civil purposes.

You eehnie the Oracle has failef and FAIL massively.
An-2 is a successful aircraft it's long continued service and number produced is a testament to that

Rostec have seen the need and the gap in the market for such a replacement hence the investment into building a facility.

Vladimir79 also brought up another valid point the cost is much cheaper. As well roles. The su superjet is a completely different aircraft for a different role I can believe your suggesting that it's in the same league.

As for L410 there's new version being planned
L-410NG although not built in Russia but had its russian certificate signed off last year. And with Russia in the process of building the facilities for the TVS 2DTS as well sanctions getting thrown at them constantly these are the reasons there not producing L410

The Chinese Y-12 which is similar and in comparison to L410 is still in production and used by a multitude of countries and organisations

Sued for bankruptcy of Czech company Aircraft Industries

bmpd
May 8th, 2016
As reported on May 3, 2016 on the web resource aviaforum.ru , Czech aircraft company Aero Vodochody Aerospace today [May 3] filed a lawsuit recognizing the insolvent of another Czech aircraft company - Aircraft Industries (formerly Let, fully controlled by JSC "Ural Mining and Metallurgical Company "(UMMC), owned by Iskander Makhmudov) .

According to the public, the total debt of Aircraft Industries exceeds 400 million kroons (14.8 million euros), including 38.3 million kroons (1.42 million euros) to Aero Vodochody. The problems of Aircraft Industries are related to the lack of orders and the sharp rise in price of L-410 aircraft on the Russian market due to the fall in the ruble against the dollar.


l-410_uktus

The last aircraft delivered to Russia by Aircraft Industries L-410UVP-E20 - board with serial number 3012 and temporary Czech registration OK-JPI, received in February 2016 by UMMC charter airline Uktus, based in Koltsovo (Ekaterinburg) (c) Aircraft Industries (via www.ato.ru )



Ilona Plashkova, CEO of Aircraft Industries, said: "I am not authorized to comment on this situation, we will be able to make an official statement tomorrow, when the owners of the company arrive in Kunovitsy." I contacted them, informed them of the situation and expect a response from Russia. "

Teresa Vrublova, representative of Aero Vodochody, said: "The issue of filing a lawsuit was a long time ago, but as a result of negotiations with Aircraft Industries this step was unavoidable.Currently, Aircraft Industries owes us 38.3 million kroner for the supplied L -410. Due to the financial problems of Aircraft Industries in December 2015, we jointly worked out a debt repayment schedule, but Aircraft Industries was unable to fulfill it.Aero executives offered to hold an additional round of negotiations with Aircraft Industries, but the shareholders of the company this proposal was rejected. "


The bmpd comment . As our blog has already reported , Aircraft Industries is experiencing serious difficulties due to a sharp decline in sales of L-410UVP-E20 light passenger aircraft manufactured by the plant, primarily in the Russian market - the main market for these aircraft - and the corresponding termination of orders for these aircraft on the part of Russian small regional air carriers, which themselves in no small part found themselves in a difficult financial situation. Financing of the acquisition of L-410UVP-E20 aircraft by these carriers in recent years was mainly carried out by the authorities of the Russian regions, which actually stopped allocating funds for this because of the economic downturn. The purchase of L-410UVP-E20 aircraft by the Russian Ministry of Defense has also been discontinued .

From 2008 to the present, Aircraft Industries produced 84 L-410UVP-E20 aircraft, of which at least 46 have been delivered to Russian customers. At the same time, comments on the web-site aviaforum.ru indicate the high cost of operating the L-410UVP aircraft -E20 in Russian conditions, caused by the high cost of spare parts delivered from the Czech Republic and Czech service. As a result, it is estimated, in Russia currently no more than a dozen L-410UVP-E20 aircraft are actually operated (without cars of the Ministry of Defense of Russia).

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Forgot the Ansat and ka-226. Still mi-17 doesn't have the range of TVS 2DTS. This is the new replacement and my original post did state is their a replacement and this is it. You still fail to see that there's a market for this type of aircraft. But like I said eehnie the Oracle knows best. Better than Rostec.

No, I do not fail. There are not data, real data, from the markets that allow to think in a success of this new variant(?). Neither in Russia, neither outside of Russia. Successful regional aircrafts in the last decades are at least of he size cathegory of the Su-Superjet. This is the reality.

With the time I had here similar discussions about the following aircrafts:

Rysachok
Be-200
SR-10
Il-112 (pending solution)

And I did not fail. It is about to apply correctly the knowledge gained in the Engineering School. Only that.

If the things go by logical terms:

Diamond DA42: Seems likely to fail to be adopted by the Russian Armed Forces.
L-410: Seems likely to have not a successful return to production in Russia.
TVS 2DTS variant of the An-2: Seems likely to repeat not the success of the previous variants neither for military nor civil purposes.

You eehnie the Oracle has failef and FAIL massively.
An-2 is a successful aircraft it's long continued service and number produced is a testament to that

Rostec have seen the need and the gap in the market for such a replacement hence the investment into building a facility.

Vladimir79 also brought up another valid point the cost is much cheaper. As well roles. The su superjet is a completely different aircraft for a different role I can believe your suggesting that it's in the same league.

As for L410 there's new version being planned
L-410NG although not built in Russia but had its russian certificate signed off last year. And with Russia in the process of building the facilities for the TVS 2DTS as well sanctions getting thrown at them constantly these are the reasons there not producing L410

The Chinese Y-12 which is similar and in comparison to L410 is still in production and used by a multitude of countries and organisations

Aircraft Industries, the company that produces the Let L-410 filed for bankruptcy in 2016. Historically it was a Czech company recently controled by new Russian owners that wanted to move the production of this aircraft to Russia. The main reason for this bankruptcy was the lack of orders for new aircrafts and monetary disadvantages caused by the depreciation of the Rouble.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1889713.html

Sued for bankruptcy of Czech company Aircraft Industries

bmpd
May 8th, 2016
As reported on May 3, 2016 on the web resource aviaforum.ru , Czech aircraft company Aero Vodochody Aerospace today [May 3] filed a lawsuit recognizing the insolvent of another Czech aircraft company - Aircraft Industries (formerly Let, fully controlled by JSC "Ural Mining and Metallurgical Company "(UMMC), owned by Iskander Makhmudov) .

According to the public, the total debt of Aircraft Industries exceeds 400 million kroons (14.8 million euros), including 38.3 million kroons (1.42 million euros) to Aero Vodochody. The problems of Aircraft Industries are related to the lack of orders and the sharp rise in price of L-410 aircraft on the Russian market due to the fall in the ruble against the dollar.


l-410_uktus

The last aircraft delivered to Russia by Aircraft Industries L-410UVP-E20 - board with serial number 3012 and temporary Czech registration OK-JPI, received in February 2016 by UMMC charter airline Uktus, based in Koltsovo (Ekaterinburg) (c) Aircraft Industries (via www.ato.ru )



Ilona Plashkova, CEO of Aircraft Industries, said: "I am not authorized to comment on this situation, we will be able to make an official statement tomorrow, when the owners of the company arrive in Kunovitsy." I contacted them, informed them of the situation and expect a response from Russia. "

Teresa Vrublova, representative of Aero Vodochody, said: "The issue of filing a lawsuit was a long time ago, but as a result of negotiations with Aircraft Industries this step was unavoidable.Currently, Aircraft Industries owes us 38.3 million kroner for the supplied L -410. Due to the financial problems of Aircraft Industries in December 2015, we jointly worked out a debt repayment schedule, but Aircraft Industries was unable to fulfill it.Aero executives offered to hold an additional round of negotiations with Aircraft Industries, but the shareholders of the company this proposal was rejected. "


The bmpd comment . As our blog has already reported , Aircraft Industries is experiencing serious difficulties due to a sharp decline in sales of L-410UVP-E20 light passenger aircraft manufactured by the plant, primarily in the Russian market - the main market for these aircraft - and the corresponding termination of orders for these aircraft on the part of Russian small regional air carriers, which themselves in no small part found themselves in a difficult financial situation. Financing of the acquisition of L-410UVP-E20 aircraft by these carriers in recent years was mainly carried out by the authorities of the Russian regions, which actually stopped allocating funds for this because of the economic downturn. The purchase of L-410UVP-E20 aircraft by the Russian Ministry of Defense has also been discontinued .

From 2008 to the present, Aircraft Industries produced 84 L-410UVP-E20 aircraft, of which at least 46 have been delivered to Russian customers. At the same time, comments on the web-site aviaforum.ru indicate the high cost of operating the L-410UVP aircraft -E20 in Russian conditions, caused by the high cost of spare parts delivered from the Czech Republic and Czech service. As a result, it is estimated, in Russia currently no more than a dozen L-410UVP-E20 aircraft are actually operated (without cars of the Ministry of Defense of Russia).

The financial issues likely have been solved with public help, but the lack of orders has not been solved, and a good number of the last units of L-410 produced in the Czech Republic, remain in the hands of the company that produced them, without a delivery to a external client, like you can see here:

https://russianplanes.net/planelist/Let/L-410

Without a sale of these aircrafts previously produced, the launch of the production in Russia is very very difficult.

But of course, no-one of the real data have a meaning for you. You prefer to ignore the real data. Your words and insults are empty of reality.

d_taddei2 wrote:

eehnie wrote:Aircraft Industries, the company that produces the Let L-410 filed for bankruptcy in 2016. Historically it was a Czech company recently controled by new Russian owners that wanted to move the production of this aircraft to Russia. The main reason for this bankruptcy was the lack of orders for new aircrafts and monetary disadvantages caused by the depreciation of the Rouble.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1889713.html

Sued for bankruptcy of Czech company Aircraft Industries

bmpd
May 8th, 2016
As reported on May 3, 2016 on the web resource aviaforum.ru , Czech aircraft company Aero Vodochody Aerospace today [May 3] filed a lawsuit recognizing the insolvent of another Czech aircraft company - Aircraft Industries (formerly Let, fully controlled by JSC "Ural Mining and Metallurgical Company "(UMMC), owned by Iskander Makhmudov) .

According to the public, the total debt of Aircraft Industries exceeds 400 million kroons (14.8 million euros), including 38.3 million kroons (1.42 million euros) to Aero Vodochody. The problems of Aircraft Industries are related to the lack of orders and the sharp rise in price of L-410 aircraft on the Russian market due to the fall in the ruble against the dollar.


l-410_uktus

The last aircraft delivered to Russia by Aircraft Industries L-410UVP-E20 - board with serial number 3012 and temporary Czech registration OK-JPI, received in February 2016 by UMMC charter airline Uktus, based in Koltsovo (Ekaterinburg) (c) Aircraft Industries (via www.ato.ru )



Ilona Plashkova, CEO of Aircraft Industries, said: "I am not authorized to comment on this situation, we will be able to make an official statement tomorrow, when the owners of the company arrive in Kunovitsy." I contacted them, informed them of the situation and expect a response from Russia. "

Teresa Vrublova, representative of Aero Vodochody, said: "The issue of filing a lawsuit was a long time ago, but as a result of negotiations with Aircraft Industries this step was unavoidable.Currently, Aircraft Industries owes us 38.3 million kroner for the supplied L -410. Due to the financial problems of Aircraft Industries in December 2015, we jointly worked out a debt repayment schedule, but Aircraft Industries was unable to fulfill it.Aero executives offered to hold an additional round of negotiations with Aircraft Industries, but the shareholders of the company this proposal was rejected. "


The bmpd comment . As our blog has already reported , Aircraft Industries is experiencing serious difficulties due to a sharp decline in sales of L-410UVP-E20 light passenger aircraft manufactured by the plant, primarily in the Russian market - the main market for these aircraft - and the corresponding termination of orders for these aircraft on the part of Russian small regional air carriers, which themselves in no small part found themselves in a difficult financial situation. Financing of the acquisition of L-410UVP-E20 aircraft by these carriers in recent years was mainly carried out by the authorities of the Russian regions, which actually stopped allocating funds for this because of the economic downturn. The purchase of L-410UVP-E20 aircraft by the Russian Ministry of Defense has also been discontinued .

From 2008 to the present, Aircraft Industries produced 84 L-410UVP-E20 aircraft, of which at least 46 have been delivered to Russian customers. At the same time, comments on the web-site aviaforum.ru indicate the high cost of operating the L-410UVP aircraft -E20 in Russian conditions, caused by the high cost of spare parts delivered from the Czech Republic and Czech service. As a result, it is estimated, in Russia currently no more than a dozen L-410UVP-E20 aircraft are actually operated (without cars of the Ministry of Defense of Russia).

The financial issues likely have been solved with public help, but the lack of orders has not been solved, and a good number of the last units of L-410 produced in the Czech Republic, remain in the hands of the company that produced them, without a delivery to a external client, like you can see here:

https://russianplanes.net/planelist/Let/L-410

Without a sale of these aircrafts previously produced, the launch of the production in Russia is very very difficult.

But of course, no-one of the real data have a meaning for you. You prefer to ignore the real data. Your words and insults are empty of reality.

Your last sentence sums you up perfectly you fail to accept the words of Rostec on the TVS 2DTS. Your quite simply a bigot.

At the end of the day if the TVS 2DTS doesn't get built in the time frame given I will eat my words and if it does you can eat your words this I am happy to agree on.

eehnie wrote:

Spare parts market and second hand market can work still, and the Russian Armed Forces can take advantage of it, providing spare parts to the civil makets, but those who are purchasing one used An-2, very likely can not afford a new aircraft.

The main problem of these aircrafts in civil makets is the profitability. It is significantly easier to make a profitable service with the purchase of a very low cost used An-2, than with a new aircraft of the same cathegory.

This type of aircrafts are losing even the agricultural market for new units with the apparition of modern UAVs, that can be expensive in a first stage, but will have better price in the long term, because structurally the UAVs allow lower costs of production and operation.

With the time, with the exhaustion of the oldest aircrafts, it is likely that parachute training evolves to situations closer to the reality of the war operations.