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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

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    bolshevik345

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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:07 am

    I read that Russia has successfully bought Catherine TIS through Algeria despite EU sanctions without much problem. Would it be possible for Russia to acquire western ship engines the same way?

    From defencepolicyasia:


    Ever since Russia was sanctioned for their involvement in the Crimean war, France was bound by those sanctions to not supply weapons and technology to Russia. Joint developments between French and Russian weapon industries made Russian weapons more competitive in the market, without which Russian arms industry would slowly starve.

    French and Russian cooperation benefited the Russian arms industry that employs nearly three million people, and French industrialists seeking to ramp up against stiffening competition in the global market. Restructuring of several French defence conglomerates to remain competitive took place amidst new and powerful entrants from Israel, China, Russia, Brazil, South Africa, and other Asian powers. France is currently the world’s third largest arms exporter but they constantly have to juggle between political prudence and employment back home.

    To get around the sanctions, Russia went through a number of third party countries via joint ventures to have France supply directly to these third party projects rather than have these sensors assembled inside Russia, as such actions are barred by sanctions. The plan is to have the French install these sensors at the customer’s base when the Russian made vehicles arrive.

    The Algerian-Russian joint venture to assemble T-90s in Algeria is one such example. Thales, according to some reports, has agreed to supply components for these Russian made tanks only if they are assembled in Algeria. OJSC Peleng, a Belorussian company that makes fire control systems and sensors for the Russian military, have been in close cooperation with French companies to provide components for their sensors used in Russian made tanks for export. In all, the sanctions had negligible effect for armoured vehicle sales and were nothing more than a nuisance.
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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:55 am

    Thats describing T-90s for Algeria being assembled in Algeria.
    Are you saying that was fake & foreign components wound up in Russia?

    Similar scheme I think exists for Indian Su-30 production & the 11356es to be completed/built in India for India are supposed to be getting Ukrainian engines/gearboxes that were ordered by Russia but have been un-delivered post-coup.

    You might be able to use that kind of scheme for naval engines once maybe twice but not in any sustainable way.

    Better is domestic production &/or analogue replacement like the Chinese license-produced diesels being used on Buyan-M.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:09 am

    Marine engines are a technology Russia would benefit from developing and they have several competent companies that develop engines.... Saturn and Klimov leap to mind immediately that could have been making said engines for decades if there was no other company in the Soviet Union already making them.

    Engines are not trivial things and as problems with Chinese copies of German engines if you don't get them right they don't work very well, but that is just design and materials and experience.

    You need strong durable parts in certain places which makes them more expensive but it is worth it. You could make the entire engine out of such materials but that just makes it more expensive, but wont necessarily make the engine more durable... harder parts can shatter in some temperature conditions more easily than softer parts.

    I am sure the Chinese will get it right, but it makes sense for Russia to make their own engines and master development and production on their own... it will take time but it is worth it because a good family of scalable engines can be used at sea and on land including diesels and gas turbines.

    From what they are saying they should be able to make new maritime engines and gearboxes already... it might take a few years to ramp up production and get the design and materials right so reliability might be an issue, but that is normal, and at least when Russia pays for engines it will get them...

    The Russians were quite a bit behind in thermal imager technology because the Soviets focussed on low light level TV system like the EO system in the Su25TM and Ka-50 Shkval-M and Shkval-K... such technology is also used in autotracking systems in Kornet and Pantsir etc so it was valuable, but they bought thermal sights from all over the place including Sweden and South Africa and France.

    They now can produce their own models which are top quality world class systems... the new thermals for the Armata vehicles and new close in thermals for their helos offering 360 degree coverage for detecting targets on the ground and for landing and taking off show they no longer need foreign assistance there. Of course foreign countries might prefer French thermals because that is what they use.
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:02 am

    hoom wrote:Thats describing T-90s for Algeria being assembled in Algeria.
    Are you saying that was fake & foreign components wound up in Russia?

    Similar scheme I think exists for Indian Su-30 production & the 11356es to be completed/built in India for India are supposed to be getting Ukrainian engines/gearboxes that were ordered by Russia but have been un-delivered post-coup.

    You might be able to use that kind of scheme for naval engines once maybe twice but not in any sustainable way.

    Better is domestic production &/or analogue replacement like the Chinese license-produced diesels being used on Buyan-M.
    What about letting India buy the frigates and then purchase them back. It would be completely legal. Also, what are the differences between military ship turbines and civilian ones?

    Would it be possible to reverse engineer an MTU turbine? If not, then how was the Rolls Royce Nene, which is a much more complex engine based on physical principles, reverse engineered in the late 40s?
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:18 am

    GarryB wrote:Marine engines are a technology Russia would benefit from developing and they have several competent companies that develop engines.... Saturn and Klimov leap to mind immediately that could have been making said engines for decades if there was no other company in the Soviet Union already making them.

    Engines are not trivial things and as problems with Chinese copies of German engines if you don't get them right they don't work very well, but that is just design and materials and experience.

    You need strong durable parts in certain places which makes them more expensive but it is worth it. You could make the entire engine out of such materials but that just makes it more expensive, but wont necessarily make the engine more durable... harder parts can shatter in some temperature conditions more easily than softer parts.

    I am sure the Chinese will get it right, but it makes sense for Russia to make their own engines and master development and production on their own... it will take time but it is worth it because a good family of scalable engines can be used at sea and on land including diesels and gas turbines.

    From what they are saying they should be able to make new maritime engines and gearboxes already... it might take a few years to ramp up production and get the design and materials right so reliability might be an issue, but that is normal, and at least when Russia pays for engines it will get them...

    The Russians were quite a bit behind in thermal imager technology because the Soviets focussed on low light level TV system like the EO system in the Su25TM and Ka-50 Shkval-M and Shkval-K... such technology is also used in autotracking systems in Kornet and Pantsir etc so it was valuable, but they bought thermal sights from all over the place including Sweden and South Africa and France.

    They now can produce their own models which are top quality world class systems... the new thermals for the Armata vehicles and new close in thermals for their helos offering 360 degree coverage for detecting targets on the ground and for landing and taking off show they no longer need foreign assistance there. Of course foreign countries might prefer French thermals because that is what they use.
    At this point isn't the problem simply lack of industrial capacity and competent workforce pool, as we have seen with the failure to supply engines from Zvezda on time?
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    hoom

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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News - Page 19 Empty Interesting stuff about staffing the big Zvezda shipyard in the East.

    Post  hoom on Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:33 pm

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3609282.html
    Interesting stuff about staffing the big Zvezda shipyard in the East.

    Namely they're nicking staff from a bunch of other shipyards.
    Which could partially explain slowdown in output from other yards.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:10 pm

    hoom wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3609282.html
    Interesting stuff about staffing the big Zvezda shipyard in the East.

    Namely they're nicking staff from a bunch of other shipyards.
    Which could partially explain slowdown in output from other yards.

    This is very good development russia

    Efficient shipyards will attract qualified workforce, this is how you properly populate Far East

    It's a win-win situation thumbsup

    Navy can now finally capitalize on this by ordering combat ships from Zvezda

    And other shipyards can use this opportunity to increase investments in training new workforce and improving their income

    But we all know that they will just keep whining and squealing about conspiracies Razz

    United Shipbuilding Corporation has been trying for years to take control of Pella Shipyard because they were swiping their contracts and making them look bad in comparison
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    Post  kvs on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:52 pm

    More contextless claims about lack of Russian ability.

    How big are the delays that they would reflect "lack of a competent labour pool". It takes 15 years to educate a person. Let's
    say they just need retraining. That takes a good 5 years of education and shop learning (work experience). None
    of the delays reflect some workforce retraining necessity.

    I have been reading about how the sky is falling ever since Banderastan stopped supplying its Soviet era gas turbines
    to Russia. Now Russia has fully replaced these models with more efficient designs (yes, more efficient judging by
    the exhaust temperature and applying the laws of thermodynamics). But people are still running around squawking
    like its 2014.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:09 pm

    kvs wrote:More contextless claims about lack of Russian ability.    

    How big are the delays that they would reflect "lack of a competent labour pool".   It takes 15 years to educate a person.   Let's
    say they just need retraining.   That takes a good 5 years of education and shop learning (work experience).    None
    of the delays reflect some workforce retraining necessity.  

    I have been reading about how the sky is falling ever since Banderastan stopped supplying its Soviet era gas turbines
    to Russia.   Now Russia has fully replaced these models with more efficient designs (yes, more efficient judging by
    the exhaust temperature and applying the laws of thermodynamics).    But people are still running around squawking
    like its 2014.  


    Contextless claims? Lol their record speaks for it's self. that is going by the current day, maybe in the future, that will change and hey hopefully it does.

    But attacking someone saying they are wrong when the build rates are what they are is just blind fanboyism, make up all the excuses you wish.

    End of the day reality is reality.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3609282.html
    Interesting stuff about staffing the big Zvezda shipyard in the East.

    Namely they're nicking staff from a bunch of other shipyards.
    Which could partially explain slowdown in output from other yards.

    This is very good development russia

    Efficient shipyards will attract qualified workforce, this is how you properly populate Far East

    It's a win-win situation thumbsup

    Navy can now finally capitalize on this by ordering combat ships from Zvezda

    And other shipyards can use this opportunity to increase investments in training new workforce and improving their income

    But we all know that they will just keep whining and squealing about conspiracies Razz

    United Shipbuilding Corporation has been trying for years to take control of Pella Shipyard because they were swiping their contracts and making them look bad in comparison
    they are also cross training their staff in South Korea. I imagine they will set up also proper apprentiships for high school graduates and engineering graduates. That means that, in a few years, as soon as they reach the needed workforce with a desired range of training, education and experience, they will be able to "export" back to other shipyards in the country a certain amount of experienced professionals without.impacting their own production capabilities.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:15 am

    Lol their record speaks for it's self.

    From the squealing of some members on this forum you would think the Russian military was ordering like the Chinese government, and the Russian shipyards were delivering nothing at all.

    There have been a few delays, and a few issues, but all these salty tears are fanboy tears that they can brag about the navy...

    Just sad really.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:02 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Lol their record speaks for it's self.

    From the squealing of some members on this forum you would think the Russian military was ordering like the Chinese government, and the Russian shipyards were delivering nothing at all.

    There have been a few delays, and a few issues, but all these salty tears are fanboy tears that they can brag about the navy...

    Just sad really.

    Yeah yeah white knight all you want Garry numbers speak the truth people do not, that's one reason I always liked math it doesn't give you BS or try and Feed you BS from whatever biased position you wish to take. It's the cold hard truth is all.

    A day will come where russia doesn't have a shipbuilding problem and when it does good for them. I hope the day comes sooner rather than later but that day isn't today or tomorrow.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:47 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Lol their record speaks for it's self.

    From the squealing of some members on this forum you would think the Russian military was ordering like the Chinese government, and the Russian shipyards were delivering nothing at all.

    There have been a few delays, and a few issues, but all these salty tears are fanboy tears that they can brag about the navy...

    Just sad really.

    Yeah yeah white knight all you want Garry numbers speak the truth people do not, that's one reason I always liked math it doesn't give you BS or try and Feed you BS from whatever biased position you wish to take. It's the cold hard truth is all.

    A day will come where russia doesn't have a shipbuilding problem and when it does good for them. I hope the day comes sooner rather than later but that day isn't today or tomorrow.
     the problems were a lot: lack of funds, lack of stable orders (basically no new orders for both civilian and surface naval ships for almost two decades), some of the biggest shipyards that ended up in a foreign country, the only naval gas turbine plant (also main producer of reduction gears and possibly was also producing some of the diesel engines) also ended up abroad. This also caused the loss of an incredible number of experienced professionals that were not replaced in the years. Furthermore much of the building technologies and techniques were not modernised and not at the latest standarf of, as an example, modern.western and south Korean shipyards. Some of the personnel problems were also shared by some.sectors of the aeronautical industry (see Ilyushin).

    What would you have done better, starting from let say 2008, to improve the situation?


    (Short of taking a time machine, going back to 1985 and replacing Gorbachev with Nazarbayev?)
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:27 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Lol their record speaks for it's self.

    From the squealing of some members on this forum you would think the Russian military was ordering like the Chinese government, and the Russian shipyards were delivering nothing at all.

    There have been a few delays, and a few issues, but all these salty tears are fanboy tears that they can brag about the navy...

    Just sad really.

    Yeah yeah white knight all you want Garry numbers speak the truth people do not, that's one reason I always liked math it doesn't give you BS or try and Feed you BS from whatever biased position you wish to take. It's the cold hard truth is all.

    A day will come where russia doesn't have a shipbuilding problem and when it does good for them. I hope the day comes sooner rather than later but that day isn't today or tomorrow.
     the problems were a lot: lack of funds, lack of stable orders (basically no new orders for both civilian and surface naval ships for almost two decades), some of the biggest shipyards that ended up in a foreign country, the only naval gas turbine plant (also main producer of reduction gears and possibly was also producing some of the diesel engines) also ended up abroad. This also caused the loss of an incredible number of experienced professionals that were not replaced in the years. Furthermore much of the building technologies and techniques were not modernised and not at the latest standarf of, as an example, modern.western and south Korean shipyards. Some of the personnel problems were also shared by some.sectors of the aeronautical industry (see Ilyushin).

    What would you have done better, starting from let say 2008, to improve the situation?


    (Short of taking a time machine, going back to 1985 and replacing Gorbachev with Nazarbayev?)


    You forgot to add bad management and a few other things but yes those are some of their issues.

    That's hard to say, I know what they did wrong and I know how to correct does that mean I would do better? maybe not maybe so. I can't really answer a question like that with a yes or no.

    I deal in reality what in what's if or maybes.

    I have said Putin needs to take the guy who runs PELLA and put him in charge of the entire USC because it's current management has shown to be incompetent and corrupt, that guy knows how to get the job done.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:47 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Lol their record speaks for it's self.

    From the squealing of some members on this forum you would think the Russian military was ordering like the Chinese government, and the Russian shipyards were delivering nothing at all.

    There have been a few delays, and a few issues, but all these salty tears are fanboy tears that they can brag about the navy...

    Just sad really.

    Yeah yeah white knight all you want Garry numbers speak the truth people do not, that's one reason I always liked math it doesn't give you BS or try and Feed you BS from whatever biased position you wish to take. It's the cold hard truth is all.

    A day will come where russia doesn't have a shipbuilding problem and when it does good for them. I hope the day comes sooner rather than later but that day isn't today or tomorrow.
     the problems were a lot: lack of funds, lack of stable orders (basically no new orders for both civilian and surface naval ships for almost two decades), some of the biggest shipyards that ended up in a foreign country, the only naval gas turbine plant (also main producer of reduction gears and possibly was also producing some of the diesel engines) also ended up abroad. This also caused the loss of an incredible number of experienced professionals that were not replaced in the years. Furthermore much of the building technologies and techniques were not modernised and not at the latest standarf of, as an example, modern.western and south Korean shipyards. Some of the personnel problems were also shared by some.sectors of the aeronautical industry (see Ilyushin).

    What would you have done better, starting from let say 2008, to improve the situation?


    (Short of taking a time machine, going back to 1985 and replacing Gorbachev with Nazarbayev?)


    You forgot to add bad management and a few other things but yes those are some of their issues.

    That's hard to say, I know what they did wrong and I know how to correct does that mean I would do better? maybe not maybe so. I can't really answer a question like that with a yes or no.

    I deal in reality what in what's if or maybes.

    I have said Putin needs to take the guy who runs PELLA and put him in charge of the entire USC because it's current management has shown to be incompetent and corrupt, that guy knows how to get the job done.

    Being a good plant manager does not mean one will also be a good manager for a much bigger organization, it would be like promoting a platoon commander to a general role.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm

    There have been plenty of cases even in modern day where Platoon Commanders proved far more competent than the "generals" in charge of them bad example my friend.

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    Post  franco on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:58 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:There have been plenty of cases even in modern day where Platoon Commanders proved far more competent than the "generals" in charge of them bad example my friend.


    And don't forget that corporal fellow angry
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:03 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:There have been plenty of cases even in modern day where Platoon Commanders proved far more competent than the "generals" in charge of them bad example my friend.

    i do not know about Russia, but in US that happens quite often, as almost all the general position are politically based. The good commissioned officers are already lucky to retire as colonel.
    End if OT
    Anyway, Pella is currently managing also the shipyard in Feodosia, while Kerch is controlled by Zelenodolks
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    Post  Truck on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3609282.html
    Interesting stuff about staffing the big Zvezda shipyard in the East.

    Namely they're nicking staff from a bunch of other shipyards.
    Which could partially explain slowdown in output from other yards.

    This is very good development russia

    Efficient shipyards will attract qualified workforce, this is how you properly populate Far East

    It's a win-win situation thumbsup

    Navy can now finally capitalize on this by ordering combat ships from Zvezda

    And which important military ship will be ordered to the Zvezda shipyard?

    Chop, chop... Cool

    Reality coming like a truck, like Eehnie predicted welcome
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    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:26 pm

    Is it allowed to have two account on this forum ? Truck is clearly Ehniee or his friend that came to troll and repeat bs said by the original retard ehniee.

    Can mods check his IP or simply ban him ?
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:40 am

    Truck wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3609282.html
    Interesting stuff about staffing the big Zvezda shipyard in the East.

    Namely they're nicking staff from a bunch of other shipyards.
    Which could partially explain slowdown in output from other yards.

    This is very good development russia

    Efficient shipyards will attract qualified workforce, this is how you properly populate Far East

    It's a win-win situation thumbsup

    Navy can now finally capitalize on this by ordering combat ships from Zvezda

    And which important military ship will be ordered to the Zvezda shipyard?

    Chop, chop... Cool

    Reality coming like a truck, like Eehnie predicted welcome

    Nothing he has said as come true if you are talking about those landing ships.

    The original planned called for having more than four, which is the plan you, I mean he cites all the time.

    If you are implying they are going to start building a carrier, then you just have delusional as him
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    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:01 am

    It looks like Americans and NATO denizens in general are afflicted with the wishful thinking fantasy projection disease.
    They really think that if they trash talk about Russia hard enough that reality will deform to suit their desires.
    Pathetic clowns.

    If it was 2004, then these "skeptics" (more like deniers) would have some plausibility in their nay saying. But not
    today. Recall the chicken little forecasts about the Banderastani termination of the supply of specific models of gas turbines
    two years ago on this forum. According to the "skeptics" Russia was never going to replace these obsolete models
    and would have to shop for Chinese ones. Now that this BS has been exposed as utterly detached from reality we
    have round two of chicken little predictions about how Russia can't build these engines. WTF. Get a frigging life
    you clowns. Russia can build jet engines and gas turbines, but just not these specific models that it has developed?

    How much more of this troll crap will we have to wade through to get any value out of these threads. Either post
    something substantial or GTFO. Your wishful thinking is totally irrelevant.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:42 pm

    I deal in reality what in what's if or maybes.

    But that is the thing... you don't.

    You are standing on the outside saying the Russians shouldn't have relied on Ukrainian engines, and they should have done this or that... it is easy to do what you do and say... hey... this design was late and wasn't made on time and then dismiss any actual reason as an excuse and just not good enough.

    Managing a real ship yard is not that easy... you have a team of workers... some might be great and some might just be OK but after 15 years of not making anything at all, and all of a sudden you get a contract to make the Ivan Gren, which is a scaled up river boat design they want for open ocean operations, you don't design it yourself... you are a shipyard... you follow the plans and build the ship, but then they decide to go with Mistrals from France half way through so you stop work and start working on other things, and then after a few years the Mistrals suddenly are not coming so you have to restart production, but the design has changed again... you don't know what possible problems their might be until you get it in to the water and do some factory tests and then you find that in the confusion there is something wrong with the way the engines are installed so you have to take it out of the water and reinstall them which takes more time and finally you get everything the way it is supposed to be on the plans and you hand it over to the Navy and they take it for a spin and say it is not what they want... were you supposed to be able to look at the plans and say this wont do what you want it to do and redesign the fucking thing yourself?

    BTW you also need to deal with the banks because you need to buy hardware and services and train workers and buy new tooling and machinery to help you complete this contract but they don't give you the full payment up front... so you need loans and you need reliable contractors and at the same time you need to keep your skilled workers or other shipyards will poach them...

    Most importantly... just because you run the shipyard does not give you any say in who makes the engines you need.. that is part of the plan specs... equally you have no control over what the customer wants... which can change over a period of 5-10 years. You just build the boat according to the plans you are given with the money you are given. You are not able to control the SAM makers or the radar makers or the engine makers or the cruise missile weapon makers... you just install everything and then leave it to the contractors to get things working...


    I have said Putin needs to take the guy who runs PELLA and put him in charge of the entire USC because it's current management has shown to be incompetent and corrupt, that guy knows how to get the job done.

    That guy might be working with a good management team that he can trust and rely on, plus not have to make dodgy ships like the Ivan Gren... sending him off to the USC might ruin Pella and the USC at the same time.

    When you find a team that works well you don't break them up, you get them to train other teams to work together elsewhere...

    There have been plenty of cases even in modern day where Platoon Commanders proved far more competent than the "generals" in charge of them bad example my friend.

    Most generals start as platoon commanders so that makes sense, but some times accelerated promotion can ruin a career as easily as it could make one.

    And don't forget that corporal fellow

    Indeed, though with purges and the first year of battle the Soviet military found unqualified officers in positions they were either prepared for or wanted, but there was no choice, but it is not something someone would think could be a good way to run a country... it was an extreme and desperate situation that was rather brutal... you either get tempered steel or a shattered mess...

    If you are implying they are going to start building a carrier, then you just have delusional as him

    They have talked about CVNs... where better to build one?

    Is it allowed to have two account on this forum ? Truck is clearly Ehniee or his friend that came to troll and repeat bs said by the original retard ehniee.

    Can mods check his IP or simply ban him ?

    I am sure Vlad will check his IP, but last time I looked it was not a banning offense to agree with someone who has been banned.

    Might come as a shock but for all the things I disagreed with regarding Eehie, there were a lot of things I agreed with him about too...

    As long as Truck respects the rules he has as much right to post here as anyone else.
    GarryB
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:21 pm

    None of anything that you said Garry has anything to do with taking over seven years to construct a hull, if you are going to start ranting stop the point of managing a shipyard is to make sure things are done on time is fixed if there is a problem and in a timely manner if you cannot do that you need to resign your post so someone who can do the job takes the spot.

    Also where would they put this carrier they will suddenly start building? where is it's aircraft, where are its escorts? where is everything else? That guy was hinting they will suddenly slap down a carrier which no they aren't we are good maybe 8 years at least from seeing them lay one down.
    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:27 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:There have been plenty of cases even in modern day where Platoon Commanders proved far more competent than the "generals" in charge of them bad example my friend.

    i do not know about Russia, but in US that happens quite often, as almost all the general position are politically based. The good commissioned officers are already lucky to retire as colonel.
    End if OT
    Anyway, Pella is currently managing also the shipyard in Feodosia, while Kerch is controlled by Zelenodolks





    That was a major problem with the inter-war Polish military.

    This problem also later "transferred" to the AK (Army of the Land) during the German occupation.


    Perhaps the best Polish partisan commander during the Second World War was a corporal, who served on a military band? He was one of the leading Polish partisan commanders in the Defence of Zamojszczyzna (1942-1944).

    Roman Kisiel, another BCh (Peasant Battalions) partisan commander, was also a lowly soldier, might have been a corporal if I remember correctly. He needed to replace some pre-war officer as his BCh commander, because the officer could not cope with his job. Later the above-mentioned Roman Kisiel remained commander for the rest of the occupation, and was even awarded the Order of Virtuti Militari for routing in the hills near Przemysl 200 Ukrainian SS-men with his 20 BCh partisans, killing 20 SS-men in the process without suffering any casualties.


    The pre-war Polish government used half of all the government spending to finance the military, but a lot of it got simply stolen by the officers.

    Also, the Polish submarine commander during September of 1939 who pretended to be sick, he later faced a court martial for this.



    The current Polish military is likely not any better.


    Last edited by Odin of Ossetia on Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:02 am; edited 3 times in total

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